Wednesday, December 19, 2018
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[15:59:30] <jonas’> .
[15:59:40] <Ge0rG> :
[16:00:06] <jonas’> meeting?
[16:00:14] *Ge0rG .o/
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[16:00:34] <dwd> Meeting.
[16:00:41] <dwd> 1) Who's Here?
[16:00:48] *Ge0rG .o/
[16:01:16] <dwd> Um.
[16:01:24] <dwd> Anyone else but me and Ge0rG?
[16:01:31] *jonas’
[16:01:32] <Ge0rG> I've seen jonas’
[16:02:43] <dwd> Link Mauve, ?
[16:04:07] <dwd> We'll assume it's just us three, then.
[16:04:42] <dwd> jonas’, I don't think there's anything new for a vote, is that right?
[16:04:58] <jonas’> https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/727
[16:05:18] <Ge0rG> dwd: I'd like to ask for an LC on 0410
[16:05:22] <jonas’> I read that as Link Mauve proposing to Defer those XEPs
[16:05:29] <jonas’> I read that as Link Mauve proposing to Deprecate those XEPs
[16:05:40] <jonas’> I read that as Link Mauve proposing to Obsolete those XEPs
[16:06:44] <jonas’> I think we should bring XEP-0008 to Active (it’s historical)
[16:07:33] <jonas’> XEP-0051 can be obsoleted IMO, with reference that the <see-other-host/> stream error should take care of that already.
[16:07:39] <dwd> OK. I don't think we can move things from Deferred to Obsolete.
[16:07:47] <jonas’> that is true
[16:08:11] <Link Mauve> Hi.
[16:08:14] <jonas’> hi Link Mauve :)
[16:08:48] <dwd> So deferred just means dead, but it can be resurrected.
[16:08:49] <jonas’> so: I’d say issue an LC for dt
[16:09:07] <jonas’> so: I’d say issue an LC for them; XEP-0008 should go to active IMO, XEP-0051 should be rejected (<see-other-host/>), XEP-0038 I have no idea baout
[16:09:10] <Link Mauve> dwd, we have a process for deferred → experimental → deprecated → obsolete.
[16:09:47] <Link Mauve> My proposal is just to skip some of them, for XEPs we do know we will never need anymore.
[16:09:48] <dwd> Link Mauve, I don't think we do. We have a process for Experimental -> Retracted.
[16:09:57] <Link Mauve> Oh, right.
[16:10:07] <jonas’> Retracted needs author though?
[16:10:23] <dwd> Link Mauve, We can go Deferred -> Experimental -> Proposed -> Rejected, if you wanted to go through a Last Call.
[16:10:27] <Link Mauve> jonas’, is there any reason to accept a third avatar XEP though?
[16:10:29] <dwd> jonas’, Indeed.
[16:10:34] <jonas’> Link Mauve, it’s historical.
[16:10:39] <jonas’> it’s obviously documenting things of the past
[16:10:51] <jonas’> that’s as good as Deprecated IMO
[16:11:35] <dwd> In any case, what is the problem you're trying to achieve, Link Mauve?
[16:11:44] <dwd> Isn't Deferred good enough?
[16:12:19] <Link Mauve> dwd, I’d like to sort all of our deferred XEPs into we-won’t-ever-need-them-anymore, and actually-should-go-through-a-last-call.
[16:12:40] <Link Mauve> Deferred is a mixed bag of both.
[16:12:51] <jonas’> I kind of like the plan
[16:12:55] <Link Mauve> In the end, I’d like to deprecate this status.
[16:12:59] <dwd> Link Mauve, Going through them to find LC candidates seems useful.
[16:13:03] <jonas’> but in any case, you need to LC to go into any other state except Retracted
[16:13:20] <dwd> Link Mauve, You want to get rid of Deferred?
[16:13:34] <Link Mauve> Note that we can appoint anyone as a new author, in order to reach retracted, or even do it ourselves.
[16:13:49] <Link Mauve> dwd, yes.
[16:14:04] <Link Mauve> Or at least, reach a point where useful XEPs are never put in this status anymore.
[16:14:21] <dwd> Link Mauve, Right, but the point fo that state is to declutter Experimental.
[16:14:27] <jonas’> then I’d suggest to focus on those which may be useful, and not those which should be Deprecated or whatever
[16:14:40] <Link Mauve> I just started from the beginning of the list.
[16:15:26] <Ge0rG> I have a hard deadline at xx:30, so are we still Meeting?
[16:15:34] <Link Mauve> We are.
[16:15:34] <dwd> In any case, our current process doesn't allow for this, and therefore I'm not keen on even voting on this.
[16:15:39] <Link Mauve> Ok.
[16:15:56] <dwd> Ge0rG, We are actually meeting. Sorry, this was waffly; I'll get things back on track.
[16:16:20] <Link Mauve> Shall I escalate that to the board?
[16:16:25] <dwd> Ge0rG, Your Last Call - what XEP was it?
[16:16:33] <Ge0rG> dwd: Self-Ping
[16:16:34] <dwd> Link Mauve, To the list, if you want.
[16:16:38] <Link Mauve> Ok.
[16:16:46] <dwd> Ge0rG, OK.
[16:16:50] <dwd> 2) Voting
[16:17:35] <dwd> a) XEP-0410: MUC Self-Ping (Schrödinger's Chat)
[16:17:42] <dwd> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0410.html
[16:17:43] <Ge0rG> obviously +1
[16:17:43] <Link Mauve> +1 for the LC, I’ve been testing an implementation and it did improve things greatly over the current status quo.
[16:17:45] <dwd> To Last Call.
[16:17:56] <dwd> I'm happy to Last Call this.
[16:17:58] <jonas’> +1 to LC
[16:18:05] <dwd> And Kev on list. Cool.
[16:18:35] <Ge0rG> Cool
[16:18:40] <dwd> 3) Outstanding Votes.
[16:19:14] <dwd> I think everyone but me owes a vote on Buttons.
[16:19:20] <jonas’> yeah
[16:19:31] <dwd> That's Proposed XMPP Extension: Simple Buttons - https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/buttons.html
[16:19:44] <Ge0rG> I was owing a vote on HTTP Upload from last Council, but that EXPIRED. I suppose
[16:19:50] <Ge0rG> Oh, yeah. The Buttons.
[16:19:56] <Ge0rG> still on-list
[16:20:04] <jonas’> I’m going to read through the arguments from last time and vote on-list today or tomorrow
[16:20:27] <dwd> Please look at that. Feel free to air your thoughts on the list, it might shake out some discussion.
[16:20:47] <dwd> 4) AOB
[16:21:08] <jonas’> I’m going to delay the re-issuance of the LCs from last-council until after western new years, if that’s fine with everyone.
[16:21:19] <jonas’> otherwise I don’t see anything happening during the LC period anyways and it’s just wasting resources of people.
[16:21:40] <dwd> Thanks, good plan.
[16:21:44] <dwd> I noticed that jonas’ has pushed through XEP-0412 (the new compliance suite) without waiting Kev's on-list vote.
[16:21:46] <Ge0rG> jonas’: yes please, I also haven't reviewed the new 0363 yet
[16:21:57] <jonas’> dwd, yeah, I noticed too, but I couldn’t get hold of Kev to discuss how to move forward
[16:21:59] <dwd> I have literally no idea what to do about that.
[16:22:11] <jonas’> git revert is always an option
[16:22:34] <dwd> Not really. It's a process violation, and we have no process for that. :-)
[16:22:55] <Ge0rG> We could just pretend that it didn't happen until Kev (+1|0)s, and escalate if he -1s
[16:23:06] <Ge0rG> and by escalate I mean git revert
[16:23:10] <jonas’> I’d prefer that route proposked by Ge0rG, because it is minimal on resources.
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[16:23:19] <jonas’> git revert and an apology from me to the list
[16:23:24] <jonas’> git revert and an apology from Editor-me to the list
[16:23:28] <dwd> I think a git revert is a very bad idea.
[16:23:32] <jonas’> why?
[16:23:41] <dwd> It might lead to XEP-0412 referring to a different XEP.
[16:23:50] <Kev> Not if the editor is smart.
[16:23:50] <Ge0rG> Because the XSF is already doing too much process for process sake.
[16:23:55] <jonas’> oh, Kev is here.
[16:23:59] <Kev> And I think carry on and hope Kev doesn't -1.
[16:24:14] <Kev> If he does, panic about that later.
[16:24:24] <Ge0rG> Keep calm and vote +1
[16:24:28] <dwd> Ge0rG, We do process so that we avoid people saying we're being arbitrary.
[16:24:31] <jonas’> Kev, fwiw, I’ll hate you if you -1 on the 24th
[16:24:42] <jonas’> (or actually any time after Friday, because I’ll be on vacation-ish then)
[16:24:42] <jonas’> ;-)
[16:24:52] <Kev> The sky isn't going to fall regardless.
[16:25:02] <Kev> If it's January before we resolve a -1 it's not going to kill anyone.
[16:25:12] <dwd> So my view is that this is a process violation and we flag it with Board, saying we're going to wait and see what Kev votes (etc).
[16:25:24] <Kev> I wouldn't even bother flagging it, but whatever.
[16:25:34] <Ge0rG> It's about "Compliance Suite 2019", and we've had a history of attempting to publish it before the year in the name
[16:25:36] <jonas’> dwd, yeah, I’d say, despite having process, we’re still humans and mistakes happen, and we can roll them back (that’s what we have version control for). and we can then discuss if we tombstone XEP-0412 or if we reserve if for the CS-2019 version which will eventually be accepted
[16:25:53] <jonas’> dwd, fine with me
[16:26:02] <jonas’> I’ll but it ont he boards trello
[16:26:05] <jonas’> I’ll put it ont he boards trello
[16:26:18] <jonas’> I’ll put it on the boards trello
[16:26:24] <dwd> Kev, I think that the Board, as guardians of the process, are probably the right people to decide on what we do.
[16:26:28] <Ge0rG> Kev: we still have 4mins of meeting left, which you might use to issue votes
[16:26:32] *Ge0rG is just saying
[16:27:02] <dwd> 5) Next Meeting
[16:27:19] <dwd> I'm not around next week. If you guys really want to meet the day after Christmas...
[16:27:38] <jonas’> is this a fair text for the trello item:
XEP-0412 was published before the council vote was finished, and there is a possibility that it is now vetoed.

Council stances:
- Ge0rG, Jonas, Kev: worry about -1 when it happens, hope for +0/+1
- dwd: Ask board what to do.

?
[16:27:45] <jonas’> I won’t be there either
[16:27:53] <Link Mauve> I’ll be somewhere between Paris and Leipzig next week, I suggest doing +2W this time.
[16:28:00] <jonas’> +1 on +2w
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[16:28:35] <dwd> jonas’, Text looks accurate. Though I'm in favour of the proposed solution too. :-)
[16:28:59] <dwd> OK, so 2nd January 2019, 1600 UTC.
[16:28:59] <jonas’> updated:
XEP-0412 was published before the council vote was finished, and there is a possibility that it is now vetoed.

Council stances:
- Ge0rG, Jonas, Kev, dwd: worry about -1 when it happens, hope for +0/+1

dwd still wants to raise this to board, to be sure, since board is guardian of the process.
[16:29:08] <Link Mauve> I’m +1 on not worrying, which I do most of the time anyway. :D
[16:29:28] <dwd> 6) Ite, Meeting Est.
[16:29:37] <dwd> (Fractionally ahead of the half hour mark)
[16:29:42] <jonas’> \o/
[16:29:54] <Link Mauve> Thanks all!
[16:30:20] <Ge0rG> +1 on +2w
[16:31:40] <jonas’> hm
[16:32:21] <Ge0rG> jonas’: when will you finally write that plugin that translates your [mh]* into English?
[16:32:42] <jonas’> Ge0rG, there was supposed to be something following that, but I decided to put it into xsf@ instead.
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[17:46:29] <pep.> > dwd> Link Mauve, Right, but the point fo that [deferred] state is to declutter Experimental.
And they can be brought back with a typo fix? :-°
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[20:16:21] *** Zash has joined the room
[20:16:24] *** Zash shows as "online"
[20:21:10] *** dwd shows as "online"
[20:25:30] *** Zash shows as "online"
[21:19:18] *** lnj has left the room
[21:24:43] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:39:13] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[21:58:13] *** labdsf has left the room
[22:04:41] *** labdsf has joined the room
[22:30:46] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:49:38] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:55:14] *** Holger shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:20:57] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:50:49] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[23:51:17] *** jonas’ has left the room
[23:51:17] *** jonas’ has joined the room
[23:51:38] *** dos has left the room