XMPP Council - 2019-01-16


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  42. Kev Do we have agendums for today?
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  51. oli if i have a question regarding the state of a xep, where should i ask it?
  52. Zash either the xsf MUC or the standards email list are good venues
  53. oli status
  54. jonas’ oli, xmpp:xsf@muc.xmpp.org?join is a good first approach
  55. oli good
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  62. Link Mauve Uh, I’m going to a conference tonight, it starts at 6pm at about 1h from where I live, which is exactly when our meeting starts. :x
  63. Link Mauve I’ll go there earlier, and will look for wifi.
  64. Link Mauve If you don’t see me by 5pm, assume I’m dead^Wnot somewhere wifi exists.
  65. Ge0rG This time there is no Agenda.
  66. Ge0rG I'm principally available and probably also full-time-available at Meeting start.
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  69. Link Mauve Due to an unforeseen infinite loop in JabberFR’s Prosody, my plan to leave early got foiled; I won’t be present for the meeting, sorry. :(
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  72. Ge0rG Link Mauve: what a convenient excuse! 😁 Have a nice evening!
  73. Ge0rG Sorry folks, 1600 fails for me. Just got a short-term appointment.
  74. jonas’ here I am
  75. Kev And me.
  76. Kev But no Dave, Link Mauve or Ge0rG, so no quorum, I think.
  77. jonas’ do we need quorum to start possibly on-list voting?
  78. Kev Technically, yes.
  79. jonas’ darn
  80. Kev Give Dave until 5 past, otherwise call it.
  81. jonas’ mildly frustrated because it took quite some effort to be here on time :/
  82. dwd has joined
  83. dwd Ooops, sorry, didn't notice the time.
  84. dwd 1) Roll Call
  85. jonas’
  86. Kev I'm here, obviously.
  87. dwd That's us, isn't it?
  88. jonas’ Ge0rG and Link Mauve excused themselves on short notice, yes
  89. dwd 1) Agenda Bashing
  90. dwd No.
  91. dwd 2) Agenda Bashing
  92. jonas’ we have a protoxep inbox
  93. dwd We have a protoxep?
  94. jonas’ did I fail to announce it?
  95. jonas’ that’d explain things
  96. jonas’ no, I did announce it
  97. jonas’ https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/hash-recommendations.html
  98. jonas’ the open LCs aren’t due yet
  99. jonas’ and afaik there are no other points from the editor
  100. jonas’ so only the protoxep
  101. dwd Indeed. I entirely missed that one, somehow.
  102. dwd But anyway:
  103. dwd 3) Items for a Vote
  104. jonas’ (I am aware of at least one copy/paste issue in the protoxep, which I can fix before we vote on it if that’s desired)
  105. jonas’ (some reference to a Version 1 of the hash namespace which doesn’t make sense after the split)
  106. dwd a) Cryptographic Hash Function Recommendations for XMPP Abstract: This document provides recommendations for the use of cryptographic hash functions in XMPP protocol extensions. URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/hash-recommendations.html
  107. jonas’ +1 obviously
  108. dwd I'm on-list, obviously, having not seen this one. But I'll place a +0 on it for now.
  109. dwd Kev, any vote from you on this one?
  110. Kev Sorry, on-list.
  111. dwd Fair enough.
  112. dwd 4) Outstanding Votes
  113. dwd Looks like the only two outstanding votes are from Ge0rG and Link Mauve.
  114. dwd 5) Next Meeting
  115. jonas’ AOB
  116. dwd Same time next week?
  117. dwd jonas’, Noted.
  118. jonas’ wfm
  119. Kev WFM, AFAIK.
  120. dwd 6) AOB
  121. dwd jonas’, You're up.
  122. oli has left
  123. jonas’ a) Secretary bot open for betatesting in xmpp:council@conference.zombofant.net?join
  124. Kev Why not in here?
  125. jonas’ I’d like your feedback, what you wish it can do, what it does wrong etc.
  126. jonas’ Kev, avoid spam in this very good signal/noise room
  127. jonas’ but I can put it here, too, if that makes sense?
  128. dwd jonas’, Is the source up anywhere?
  129. jonas’ not yet
  130. jonas’ can change that in a minute though
  131. jonas’ (I also have another AOB)
  132. dwd jonas’, Personally, I'm happy to spin it up here. MVP is very M, so we might was well try it.
  133. jonas’ ok
  134. jonas’ will put it on here after I moved it to some machine which isn’t shut down every day for hours :)
  135. Kev jonas’: Much more likely it'll get tested live, I imagine.
  136. Kev If it's broken and starts spamming and you're not around to fix it, banning it is trivial.
  137. jonas’ true
  138. jonas’ https://github.com/horazont/councilbot
  139. jonas’ source ^
  140. dwd Awesome.
  141. dwd jonas’, Next AOB?
  142. jonas’ b) Deferred XEPs
  143. jonas’ the other day in xsf@, I came up with the idea that we should look at a random(*) deferred XEP each week
  144. jonas’ to kind of sort where they stand, because it’s often not obvious
  145. jonas’ I see three states: needs more work, should be LC’d with prospect of advancement, should LC’d with prospect of being dropped
  146. jonas’ I think we have quite a few in the last two states, which is something council can do something about
  147. jonas’ so... I’d draw a random XEP each week, announce it here or somewhere, and everyone takes a short look and we figure out what to do with it?
  148. dwd I think that presupposes that we should avoid having XEPs quietly languish in Deferred.
  149. jonas’ I think there’s some merit of cleaning up our XEP list, because it has been reported as being overwhelming
  150. Kev I don't think it presupposes that.
  151. dwd But what's the difference between a XEP list that has lots of deferred and a XEP list that has lots of Rejected?
  152. Kev I think it just presupposes that there might be XEPs in deferred that shouldn't be.
  153. jonas’ dwd, I’m hoping we’ll have more in Draft actually
  154. jonas’ Deferred <-> Rejected I’m not so worried about, Deferred <-> Draft is more relevant
  155. jonas’ however, I understand that we all are busy people, and you’d prefer to distribute the workload on the authors
  156. Kev Oh, no, there was a line in there that presupposed they shouldn't be deferred. Apologies. I disagree with that notion.
  157. jonas’ (that was Ge0rGs stance, IIRC)
  158. Kev I'm fine with looking at one a week, but the possible (and likely) outcome is "yep, should be in deferred".
  159. dwd OK. I'm all in favour of checking through XEPs to see what can be usefully advanced. I'm not sure that a random scan is ideal.
  160. jonas’ dwd, I’m open for any other mode
  161. Kev I don't see a problem with just starting with oldest deferred and moving forwards.
  162. jonas’ oldest by xep number or oldest by last update?
  163. dwd I feel that the oldest Deferred XEP is least likely to be advanced. We might be better off looking at most recent Deferred (or oldest Draft).
  164. Kev dwd: Least likely to be advanced, most likely to be deprecated/rejected, I think.
  165. Kev Anyway, I am not high-F on the mechanism, other than that I think sequential (by number) is sensible.
  166. Kev Direction matters to me less.
  167. dwd Kev, Potentially. I'm a lot more interested in advancing stuff that needs to be advanmced, though.
  168. Kev I do like a good advanmcement.
  169. dwd Kev, Yes - I'm low-F on deprecating deferred-and-useless XEPs, but higher-F on advancing deferred-but-worthy XEPs
  170. dwd But anyway, I'm happy to give it a go.
  171. dwd Any other AOB?
  172. jonas’ not from me
  173. Kev Newp.
  174. dwd OK. In that case:
  175. dwd 7) Ite, Meeting Est
  176. jonas’ thanks dwd
  177. dwd Thanks all.
  178. Kev Diolch, pawb.
  179. dwd And once again, sorry for being late.
  180. jonas’ before you all vanish, can somebody give councilbot@dreckshal.de moderator permissions so that it can see the occupants JIDs? that’s required for secure voting.
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  182. Ge0rG Hi. Have I missed something? 😁
  183. jonas’ Ge0rG, yes, the meeting ;-)
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  185. jonas’ ping
  186. Secretary jonas’, pong
  187. jonas’ Secretary, create vote on something
  188. jonas’ I guessed that much, no privileges yet :)
  189. Ge0rG jonas’: darn!
  190. Ge0rG I think the Secretary syntax urgently needs shortcuts
  191. jonas’ Ge0rG, read the syntax manual?
  192. jonas’ Ge0rG, have you read the syntax manual?
  193. Ge0rG jonas’: I have. I want *shorter* commands, not longer
  194. jonas’ right, I wasn’t sure whether you were going off my verbose backlog in the other room
  195. jonas’ make concrete proposals, I’ll implement them
  196. Kev !help
  197. Kev sighs
  198. jonas’ Kev, it only listens to stuff prepended with it’s name
  199. jonas’ also, here: https://github.com/horazont/councilbot/blob/master/docs/patterns.rst
  200. Kev Secretary: help
  201. Ge0rG jonas’: !help !+1 !-1 !list
  202. Ge0rG also fuzzy matching of <the subject>
  203. jonas’ Ge0rG, it does match fuzzy on the subject ;-)
  204. jonas’ (and if it matched unexpectedly, you can LMC it)
  205. jonas’ also, I need to cycle it so that it picks up on the newly visible JIDs
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  208. jonas’ Secretary, help
  209. Secretary jonas’, TBD
  210. jonas’ :-;
  211. Ge0rG Secretary: help
  212. jonas’ ;-)
  213. Secretary Ge0rG, TBD
  214. Ge0rG ah, it accepts `:` as well
  215. jonas’ it could link to that rst now
  216. Ge0rG jonas’: is that rst part of the github repo?
  217. Ge0rG link to the formatted version then, please
  218. jonas’ yes
  219. jonas’ and yes
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  222. jonas’ Secretary, help
  223. Secretary jonas’, TBD
  224. jonas’ ey
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  227. jonas’ Secretary, help
  228. Secretary jonas’, https://github.com/horazont/councilbot/blob/master/docs/patterns.rst
  229. Ge0rG so can we please have bang commands
  230. jonas’ on it
  231. Ge0rG Secretary, create poll new: the opposite of old
  232. Secretary Ge0rG, created poll on new: the opposite of old. Expires on 2019-01-30
  233. Ge0rG Secretary: vote -1 on new: the opposite of old: it's not actually new
  234. Secretary Ge0rG, sorry, I do not know which vote you mean.
  235. Ge0rG Secretary: vote -1 on new: the opposite of old
  236. jonas’ yeah
  237. Secretary Ge0rG, sorry, I do not know which vote you mean.
  238. jonas’ that.
  239. Ge0rG Secretary: vote -1 on new: not new?
  240. Secretary Ge0rG, sorry, I do not know which vote you mean.
  241. jonas’ it only matches on the part in front of the colon
  242. jonas’ the other part is irrelevant for the match
  243. jonas’ Ge0rG, vote -1 on new the opposite of old: because I can do it nevertheless
  244. jonas’ Secretary, vote -1 on new the opposite of old: because I can do it nevertheless
  245. Secretary jonas’, I recorded your vote of -1 on new: the opposite of old: because I can do it nevertheless
  246. jonas’ Ge0rG, ^
  247. Ge0rG wait, what?
  248. jonas’ fuzzy match is fuzzy :)
  249. jonas’ so I guess this isn’t too much of an issue after all?
  250. Kev Is there a reason not to cycle through in normal meeting style?
  251. Kev The way the old meetingbot did, but with the addition of remembering votes?
  252. jonas’ Kev, I intend to make it so that a newly created poll is current for 30 minutes or until a new poll is created
  253. jonas’ and then vote commands without subject words would match that poll
  254. jonas’ (the idea is that you can vote using the bot outside the meeting, too)
  255. Kev So you create them in the week before Council, and then !next a few times to get through the meeting, with it detecting votes each time?
  256. jonas’ more like chair creates the polls in the meeting when moving to the next agendum
  257. jonas’ (since expiration is tied to creation time)
  258. Kev It's not entirely clear to me how that's helping, then?
  259. jonas’ how what is helping in which regard?
  260. Kev Keep track of the agenda?
  261. jonas’ my goal was to keep track of votes, not of the (pre-meeting) agenda
  262. Kev Oh, ok.
  263. jonas’ and opt-in reminders to pending votes and stuff
  264. Kev Any chance we could have it do agenda management? It used to be great being able to just !agenda (or whatever, I forget) to see what the agenda was looking like being for the next meeting.
  265. jonas’ sure
  266. jonas’ no reason that couldn’t be implemented, too. I’d keep it orthogonal to keep the data model simple though.
  267. jonas’ (and the interaction model)
  268. dwd Secretary, please do I want to please
  269. Kev Back when we used to have this before it was so nice as chair to just !next through the meeting and have all the agenda passed out for you.
  270. jonas’ somebody read the source.
  271. jonas’ well done, dwd, you broke it,.
  272. dwd Secretary, I do want to please nevermind
  273. Secretary dwd, as if it never happened
  274. jonas’ not fatally, but you made it complain
  275. jonas’ ("why nevermind?" -> "for use with LMC")
  276. jonas’ Secretary, create poll on deprecation of XEP-0001
  277. Secretary jonas’, created poll on deprecation of XEP-0001. Expires on 2019-01-30
  278. jonas’ Secretary, nevermind
  279. Secretary jonas’, as if it never happened
  280. jonas’ Secretary, list open polls
  281. Secretary jonas’, there is 1 open poll new: the opposite of old (due in 2 weeks, on 2019-01-30)
  282. dwd Secretary, Please show me all the open polls
  283. Secretary dwd, there is 1 open poll new: the opposite of old (due in 2 weeks, on 2019-01-30)
  284. dwd I actually rather like the natural-language interface.
  285. jonas’ (I somehow expected that dwd would be the one playing with the long syntax, I do not know why)
  286. jonas’ I plan to keep it in addition to the !-commands
  287. Kev Odd. I really can't find that email about the hash stuff.
  288. Kev Oh, there we go.
  289. jonas’ Kev, the protoxep or the discussion about splitting?
  290. Kev Secretary: please create poll Accept "Cryptographic Hash Function Recommendations for XMPP" to Experimental: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/hash-recommendations.html
  291. Kev Secretary: create poll Accept "Cryptographic Hash Function Recommendations for XMPP" to Experimental: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/hash-recommendations.html
  292. jonas’ Kev, ah, it doesn’t like your JID
  293. jonas’ I’ll fix that
  294. Secretary has left
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  296. jonas’ Kev, should be good now
  297. Kev Secretary: please create poll Accept "Cryptographic Hash Function Recommendations for XMPP" to Experimental: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/hash-recommendations.html
  298. jonas’ nice
  299. Kev Secretary: create poll Accept "Cryptographic Hash Function Recommendations for XMPP" to Experimental: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/hash-recommendations.html
  300. jonas’ it doesn’t like when the first message it sees from a member is an LMC
  301. jonas’ stupid assumptions!!k
  302. Kev Secretary: create poll Accept "Cryptographic Hash Function Recommendations for XMPP" to Experimental: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/hash-recommendations.html
  303. Secretary Kev, created poll on Accept "Cryptographic Hash Function Recommendations for XMPP" to Experimental: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/hash-recommendations.html. Expires on 2019-01-30
  304. dwd jonas’, Something that would be nice is if it could take "create a new poll on https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/hash-recommendations.html" and enrich it with the title and abstract
  305. jonas’ dwd, on the list, yes
  306. jonas’ also for github PRs
  307. Kev +1
  308. dwd Indeed.
  309. Kev Secretary +1
  310. Kev Secretary: +1
  311. Secretary Kev, sorry, I did not understand that.
  312. jonas’ Secretary, I vote +1 on Accept to Experimental
  313. Secretary jonas’, sorry, I do not know which vote you mean.
  314. jonas’ Secretary, I vote +1 on Accept Cryptographic Hash Function Recommendations to Experimental
  315. Kev Secretary: +1
  316. Secretary jonas’, I recorded your vote of +1 on Accept "Cryptographic Hash Function Recommendations for XMPP" to Experimental: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/hash-recommendations.html: (no comment)
  317. Secretary Kev, sorry, I did not understand that.
  318. jonas’ Kev, the context stuff isn’t implemented yet
  319. Kev Secretary vote +1
  320. Kev Ah, ok.
  321. Kev Secretary: create poll Accept "Some dummy XEP" to Experimental: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/dummy-recommendations.html
  322. Secretary Kev, created poll on Accept "Some dummy XEP" to Experimental: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/dummy-recommendations.html. Expires on 2019-01-30
  323. dwd A vote number might be a helpful shortcut. Or even if we could create shortcuts, so "vote +1 on hash-recommendations" would work.
  324. Kev Secretary vote +1 on accept
  325. dwd A substring search might actually be good enough.
  326. jonas’ dwd, the match is already fuzzy, but it needs some confidence to be accepted
  327. jonas’ this is particularly bad with long titles and URLs :/
  328. dwd Secretary, vote +1 on dummy
  329. Secretary dwd, sorry, I do not know which vote you mean.
  330. dwd Secretary, vote +1 on some dummy xep
  331. Secretary dwd, sorry, I do not know which vote you mean.
  332. jonas’ (something which matches if it’s the only thing where the word occurs would be good as a fallback, indeed)
  333. Zash Secretary: vote +10000 on whatever
  334. dwd Secretary, you are useless.
  335. Secretary dwd, sorry, I did not understand that.
  336. Kev jonas’: I think your concern about SNR with the bot in here was completely unfounded.
  337. dwd Secretary, You have supplied the proof of my assertion
  338. Secretary dwd, sorry, I did not understand that.
  339. Kev &
  340. jonas’ Zash, DEBUG:main.client.bot.CouncilBot:ignoring message from non-member zash@[…]
  341. Ge0rG This backlog is priceless.
  342. jonas’ Kev, COMPLETELY UNFOUNDED it was
  343. Ge0rG jonas’: what about using `*tag*` within the title as an optional implicit shortcut?
  344. jonas’ not sure which part of your message is intended to be markup and which is intended to be verbatim
  345. jonas’ #in-body-markup-rules
  346. Ge0rG Shall I reencode in XEP syntax?
  347. jonas’ maybe just without markup
  348. jonas’ if there’s any
  349. Ge0rG EBNF?
  350. Ge0rG jonas’: if the title contains a word surrounded by asterisks, use that as the shortcut
  351. jonas’ ah
  352. dwd I'd suggest square brackets for the markup reason, actually.
  353. jonas’ dwd, +1
  354. jonas’ also because square brackets
  355. Ge0rG Secretary: vote +1 on Square brackets
  356. Secretary Ge0rG, sorry, I do not know which vote you mean.
  357. jonas’ heh
  358. dwd Secretary, Please can you crate a vote on square brackets?
  359. Secretary dwd, sorry, I did not understand that.
  360. dwd Secretary, Please can you create a vote on square brackets?
  361. Secretary dwd, sorry, I did not understand that.
  362. dwd :-(
  363. jonas’ (it doesn’t ignore "can")
  364. dwd jonas’, It needs to ignore me more.
  365. jonas’ (or "you" for that matter)
  366. jonas’ yes
  367. Secretary has left
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  369. Ge0rG Secretary: please create a misunderstanding
  370. Secretary Ge0rG, sorry, I did not understand that.
  371. Secretary has left
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  373. jonas’ Secretary, can you please cretae a vote on the square brackets?
  374. Secretary jonas’, sorry, I did not understand that.
  375. jonas’ Secretary, can you please create a vote on the square brackets?
  376. Secretary jonas’, created poll on square brackets. Expires on 2019-01-30
  377. jonas’ dwd, there you go :)
  378. lnj has left
  379. jonas’ so I understand that you folks want: - agenda - square bracket tags for easier voting - fetching metadata from known URLs
  380. Ge0rG Square brackets when creating the vote, not when actually voting, please. Also the obvious interaction between agenda and votes
  381. jonas’ Ge0rG, sure
  382. jonas’ Ge0rG, https://github.com/horazont/councilbot/issues/1
  383. jonas’ and https://github.com/horazont/councilbot/issues/3
  384. Ge0rG jonas’: awesome!
  385. jonas’ so I hvae something to do for tonight :)
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  389. jonas’ Kev, (or anyone) do you have a reference or example usage of that old agenda bot? it isn’t clear to me, for example, how the order of the agenda would be determined -- by addition seems a bit meh
  390. jonas’ Kev, (or anyone) do you have a reference or example usage of that old agenda bot? it isn’t clear to me, for example, how the order of the agenda would be determined -- by time of addition seems a bit meh, and adding a text interface to sort it seems meh too
  391. jonas’ (ad-hoc with text-multi or something comes to mind, but I haven’t implemented the server-side of XEP-0050 in aioxmpp yet)
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  403. jonas’ Secretary, please list the votes on accept cryptographic hash function recommendations as experimental
  404. Secretary jonas’, poll on Accept "Cryptographic Hash Function Recommendations for XMPP" to Experimental: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/hash-recommendations.html is open. The poll is failing. Kev has not voted Ge0rG has not voted dwd has not voted jonas’ has voted +1 without further comment Link Mauve has not voted
  405. jonas’ that this pings everyone is probably not good, does anyone have a suggestion how to fix it? ^
  406. mathieui I have seen a bot adding an underscore right between the first and the second chars of the nick
  407. mathieui it "works" most of the time
  408. jonas’ mathieui, that sounds like a good think
  409. jonas’ when does it not work?
  410. mathieui well, it works in the normal case
  411. jonas’ which is the non-normal case?
  412. mathieui when people take nicks including other people’s nick, it breaks down
  413. mathieui but that’s won’t be the case here
  414. mathieui but that won’t be the case here
  415. jonas’ ah, so when someone would call themselves K_ev, that’s right
  416. jonas’ do we have something which strongly allowed in resourceprep, doesn’t look terrible and would confuse typical highlight detections?
  417. Secretary has left
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  419. jonas’ Secretary, please show the votes on accept cryptographic hash function recommendations as experimental
  420. Secretary jonas’, poll on Accept "Cryptographic Hash Function Recommendations for XMPP" to Experimental: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/hash-recommendations.html is open. The poll is failing. j_onas’ has voted +1 without further comment dwd has not voted Ge0rG has not voted Link Mauve has not voted Kev has not voted
  421. jonas’ that didn’t work
  422. mathieui almost
  423. Secretary has left
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  425. jonas’ Secretary, please show the votes on accept cryptographic hash function recommendations as experimental
  426. Secretary jonas’, poll on Accept "Cryptographic Hash Function Recommendations for XMPP" to Experimental: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/hash-recommendations.html is open. The poll is failing. j_onas’ has voted +1 without further comment L_ink Mauve has not voted d_wd has not voted G_e0rG has not voted K_ev has not voted
  427. jonas’ better
  428. jonas’ and, another "yay for in-band signalling"
  429. labdsf has left
  430. Ge0rG Why don't I see anything from secretary at all in yaxim?
  431. Ge0rG https://upload.yax.im/upload/-gdFfyemG-YPSYCF/20190116_220730.jpg
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  434. Ge0rG Must be the @xml:lang on the body. Meh.
  435. oli has joined
  436. Ge0rG Now I wonder if this is a new smack4 "feature" or if it has been broken forever
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  438. labdsf has joined
  439. ivucica has left
  440. ivucica has joined
  441. oli jonas’: you could use this point · instead of _
  442. oli j·onas’:
  443. Remko has left
  444. lnj has joined
  445. Tobias has joined
  446. lnj has left
  447. oli has left
  448. oli has joined
  449. oli has joined
  450. oli has joined
  451. oli has left