Tuesday, March 11, 2014
editor@muc.xmpp.org
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XEP Editor Team — logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/editor/

[00:01:11] *** m&m has left the room
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[00:21:48] <stpeter> hmm
[00:22:03] <stpeter> m&m let's discuss in the meeting tomorrow
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[11:05:32] *** winfried shows as "online" and his status message is "Doing too much at once, so you might chat with me as well... ;-)"
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[14:05:25] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[14:10:41] *** m&m shows as "online"
[14:11:23] <m&m> I need to put together an agenda for today
[14:17:41] <winfried> some suggestions:
[14:17:50] <winfried> - post mortum
[14:17:53] <m&m> remember we only have 30 minutes!
[14:18:05] <winfried> - access
[14:18:34] <m&m> - BOSH
[14:19:17] <winfried> - dividing work
[14:19:26] <winfried> - how to communicate with the council
[14:20:05] <winfried> - structuring changelogs and tagging changes as major/minor
[14:20:41] <winfried> - XEPS we have to act on
[14:21:06] <winfried> - the next humorous xep
[14:30:55] <Steffen Larsen> +1
[14:31:08] <m&m> that is more like 120 minutes of stuff
[14:31:12] <Steffen Larsen> :-)
[14:31:13] <m&m> we're not talking about it all
[14:31:25] <Steffen Larsen> its actually hard to divide work when we use email as our XEP queue
[14:31:43] <Steffen Larsen> unless we are talking together and splitting work in our muc here
[14:33:23] <Lloyd> Agree with Steffen Larsen
[14:33:31] <Steffen Larsen> well I am off.. talk to you in a couple of hours guys
[14:36:07] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[15:03:10] *** winfried shows as "online" and his status message is "Doing too much at once, so you might chat with me as well... ;-)"
[15:05:26] <Kev> Isn't it just a case of replying to an item on the list before you deal with it? It hardly affects me what tools you folks use, but still...mailing lists seem like they should work fine.
[15:08:58] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
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[15:56:16] <m&m> Lloyd: would you track down Ash for us, please?
[15:57:33] <winfried> I Have to excuse Stefan Strigler, he probably can't make it today
[15:57:39] <Lloyd> He;s around
[15:57:52] <Steffen Larsen> excused! :-)
[15:58:04] <Lloyd> just poked ash to join early
[15:58:39] *** Ash has joined the room
[15:58:52] <Ash> Hello!
[15:59:01] <winfried> hi!
[16:00:35] <m&m> my clock sais we still about about two minutes
[16:00:41] <m&m> says even
[16:00:56] <m&m> clearly that is demonstrating the elite typing skills of an editor
[16:01:03] <Lloyd> :)
[16:01:05] <Steffen Larsen> :-)
[16:01:12] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[16:01:23] <Ash> :)
[16:01:28] <Steffen Larsen> hello Ash and Winfried!
[16:01:42] <winfried> counting down for banging the gavel
[16:02:09] <winfried> hi steffen ;-)
[16:02:44] <Steffen Larsen> 2
[16:02:44] <Steffen Larsen> 1
[16:02:45] <Steffen Larsen> 0
[16:02:49] <winfried> *BANG*
[16:02:54] *m&m bangs gavel
[16:03:01] <m&m> alright, so the agenda for today
[16:03:19] <m&m> 1) Hand-off Portmortem
------------------------------

[16:03:34] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[16:03:36] <m&m> I kept meaning to write this up while in London last week, but failed miserably
[16:03:58] <stpeter> hi :-)
[16:03:59] <winfried> how much is there to say?
[16:04:20] <m&m> XEP-readme was updated to reflect the latest
[16:04:31] <Steffen Larsen> yes it looks more modern now :-)
[16:05:01] <m&m> it still requires a good amount of manual steps
[16:05:04] <m&m> and special access
[16:05:19] <m&m> list administration for standards@
[16:05:20] <stpeter> right
[16:05:35] <m&m> WordPress (until Simon and Laura replace the WP-based site with something static)
[16:05:39] <m&m> git
[16:05:40] <m&m> shell
[16:06:09] <Ash> Not sure but I guess the new site will still be wordpress
[16:06:13] <stpeter> yeah, too many disparate tools
[16:06:13] <m&m> I think there's still a couple of bugs in the XEP-readme, and I'll submit a patch to address that
[16:06:24] <Steffen Larsen> yes a lot could be done automatically
[16:06:43] <m&m> the shell and python scripts have some documentation, which probably should go into the readme (or someone to update the scripts)
[16:06:49] <Steffen Larsen> but lets do that when we understand the process better
[16:06:54] <m&m> right
[16:06:57] <winfried> +1
[16:07:10] <m&m> I started looking into what it would take to use git hooks
[16:07:24] <winfried> would love to be able to test / run all scripts and so locally
[16:07:31] <m&m> I think it's possible, but I have some concerns if there are non-Editor team people with push rights
[16:07:37] <m&m> yes
[16:07:38] <Steffen Larsen> how about also using merge request from gitorious?
[16:08:20] <m&m> I'm not a Git expert, but wouldn't that require us to have the canonical repo in gitorius?
[16:08:32] <winfried> Steffen: maybe better understand the current process before doing so
[16:08:38] <Steffen Larsen> sure
[16:08:45] <m&m> I think the current readme covers the steps fairly well now
[16:08:51] <Steffen Larsen> yes
[16:09:10] <m&m> the only bug I've found are references to a local git working copy that is not in the right place
[16:09:12] <Steffen Larsen> my biggest concern is not the process.. but more the queue and the many mails that confuses me..
[16:09:22] <winfried> the readme still needs to be build into html and updated on the site ;-)
[16:09:31] <Ash> Steffen: +1
[16:09:32] <m&m> Steffen Larsen: one thing at a time!
[16:09:39] <Steffen Larsen> thats done by a script right
[16:09:46] <Steffen Larsen> m&m: right
[16:10:07] <m&m> yes, XEP-readme is a XEP, so gen.py can do the right thing with it
[16:11:03] <m&m> I'm not sure there's much more to say about the postmortem
[16:11:06] <m&m> stpeter?
[16:11:14] <stpeter> sounds about right to me
[16:11:31] <winfried> ok, that brings us to the access rights....
[16:11:38] <stpeter> I'd like to get more people working on things (see next topic) because different people will find different process bugs
[16:11:57] <m&m> 2) Access Control
------------------------------

+ Website
+ Git
+ Mailing lists

[16:12:14] <m&m> I lumped website together
[16:12:27] <m&m> that's really shell (for the static-ish side) and WP
[16:12:41] <m&m> to get access, you need to send Kev your SSH key
[16:12:49] <m&m> to get git and shell
[16:12:54] <winfried> ok
[16:13:04] <Ash> Kev had concerns with lots of people having shell access. Has that been resolved?
[16:13:09] <m&m> he's nervous about signing everyone up for that, though
[16:13:13] <m&m> no it has not
[16:13:19] <Steffen Larsen> ok
[16:13:26] <Steffen Larsen> so we will ship him our key?
[16:13:33] <m&m> Steffen Larsen: correct
[16:13:43] <m&m> I understand Kev's concerns about shell access
[16:13:45] <winfried> so there is no editor group with proper limits?
[16:13:50] <m&m> but, we need to be able to do the job
[16:14:07] <m&m> so unless we're going to do a potentially massive tooling effort right now ...
[16:14:16] <m&m> … the i-team is going to have to grant limited access
[16:14:20] <m&m> there are limits, though
[16:14:23] <Steffen Larsen> ok
[16:14:36] <Lloyd> if we implemented git hooks then shell access would become a moot point
[16:14:36] <m&m> we really just need to have /bin/bash as user "xsf"
[16:14:47] <m&m> Lloyd: most likely, yes
[16:15:01] <m&m> I'm not sure how much effort is required there
[16:15:03] <Steffen Larsen> for what? updating the local repo and generating the html ?
[16:15:09] <m&m> Steffen Larsen: yes
[16:15:20] <Kev> If you all want shell, can you let me know which commands you need to run as xsf, please?
[16:15:29] <Kev> Just granting lots of extra people access to bash doesn't sound ideal.
[16:15:32] <Steffen Larsen> ok. we might just be able to do that by cron? and let it check out the latest master from the repo?
[16:15:44] <m&m> Steffen Larsen: slow down a little (-:
[16:16:09] <Steffen Larsen> sorry.. just trying to make it easier by not having ssh access
[16:16:09] <m&m> if we're willing to limp along with a couple of people having shell...
[16:16:19] <Lloyd> I'd prefer not to have shell if possible, there should be tools/procedures in place to make things as simple as possible. (happy to have shell I'm talking the global "I")
[16:16:20] <m&m> … and others (possibly those same people) working on more automated tooling ...
[16:16:33] <Lloyd> m&m +1
[16:16:35] <m&m> … we could get by with a lot fewer shell rights
[16:16:47] <Steffen Larsen> yes!
[16:17:08] <winfried> ok so we should divide efforts: tooling and current queue
[16:17:18] <Lloyd> yup
[16:17:21] <m&m> winfried: +1
[16:17:23] <Steffen Larsen> +1
[16:17:29] <winfried> +1
[16:17:32] <winfried> ;-)
[16:17:37] <m&m> the tooling group should be able to work with a local clone of git
[16:17:37] <Ash> In terms of tooling, we could make use of Atlassian's tools which are free for open source projects
[16:17:55] <m&m> Ash: you need to clear that with the i-team
[16:18:14] <m&m> they would be the ones to maintain the base software
[16:18:28] <m&m> installs, updates, runtime, etc
[16:18:40] <Ash> Their cloud service is free
[16:19:05] *** Steffen Larsen has left the room
[16:19:11] <m&m> if the Board is not comfortable moving git to a cloud service, I don't see this being acceptable either
[16:19:14] <winfried> guess some git-hooks being build on the current scripts should do?
[16:19:16] <Ash> Jira for ticket management, Bamboo for CI (to do the builds)
[16:19:21] <m&m> s/Board/XSF membership/
[16:19:40] <Ash> Fair enough. Just an idea :)
[16:19:46] <m&m> I do appreciate it
[16:19:54] <stpeter> Ash: we have previously used Atlassian tools so I think we could use them again if desired / needed
[16:19:54] <Lloyd> Not a fan of atlassian, but at least it would give us an easy integrated solution. However if we were going that far I'd prefer github + travis - with the added benefit of visibility :)
[16:19:58] <m&m> but I appreciate the arguments against better (-:
[16:20:12] <stpeter> Lloyd: +1 to transparency
[16:20:42] <m&m> as long as we can run it on athena, and the i-team is willing to deal with the software installs/updates
[16:21:17] <m&m> to me, scripts are one thing, but software packages are another
[16:21:32] <stpeter> nod
[16:21:51] <winfried> can you elaborate that a bit?
[16:21:52] <m&m> and I don't think it's appropriate for the editor team to maintain software packages unless we can isolate it to just the editor team function (write-wise)
[16:22:15] <Lloyd> I think maybe we're getting a little sidetracked with solutions rather than tasks.
[16:22:25] <winfried> yup
[16:22:26] <m&m> Lloyd: I think you're right (-:
[16:22:44] <m&m> anyway, let's figure out who wants to do what
[16:22:48] <stpeter> engineers love to talk about their tools :-)
[16:22:53] <m&m> who wants to look into improved automation?
[16:22:56] <Ash> :)
[16:22:57] <Lloyd> stpeter :)
[16:23:24] <winfried> *silence*
[16:23:25] <Lloyd> So how about those with current access work on current queue and others in tooling team (discuss via mailing list) as a first start and then anyone who wants to switch (or do both) please say
[16:23:38] <Lloyd> m&m I'll happily do that.
[16:23:45] <m&m> thanks Lloyd
[16:24:03] <Lloyd> m&m: you might not like my suggestions ;) I have strong opinions sometimes
[16:24:16] <m&m> Lloyd: I am bigger than you, though (-:
[16:24:29] <Lloyd> ..and across an ocean :P
[16:24:40] <stpeter> heh
[16:24:46] <Kev> When we've used Atlassian previously, it has been a services we've hosted, and the maintenance was not fun.
[16:24:46] <m&m> frankly, as long as it gets the job done and the maintenance is reasonably isolated, I'm open
[16:24:53] <stpeter> Kev: agreed
[16:25:02] <m&m> s/reasonably isolated/reasonable/
[16:25:20] <m&m> as for queue management, I've found email to be sufficient for small teams like this
[16:25:39] <Kev> I'm not saying 'iteam is not willing to do this', just noting that it's a significant time drain.
[16:25:51] <stpeter> email + this chatroom are fine by me
[16:25:58] <stpeter> but I'm old-fashioned
[16:26:04] <winfried> stpeter +1 (on both)
[16:26:04] <m&m> stpeter: apparently I am too
[16:26:36] <Lloyd> mostly works for me, if it doesn't I'm sure we'll shout.
[16:26:47] <m&m> just be good about checking your email d-:
[16:26:54] *m&m looks at the agenda again
[16:27:00] <m&m> is there more about access we want to talk about?
[16:27:09] <m&m> mailing lists
[16:27:21] <stpeter> right, I sent mail about that
[16:27:27] <m&m> I think we should all have admin rights on at least editor@, and probably standards@ too
[16:27:38] <stpeter> I think it would spread the load
[16:27:46] <m&m> stpeter: that's why I have it in the agenda (-:
[16:27:58] <stpeter> (we need to get some greylisting and other spam-fighting things on atlas while we're at it)
[16:28:12] <winfried> wondering what will be coming my way, but lets hit it ;-)
[16:28:29] <m&m> winfried: you can help with tooling (-:
[16:28:34] <m&m> and/or list moderation
[16:29:11] <m&m> stpeter: does the editor team need to be involved with that anti-spam effort?
[16:29:12] <winfried> thats ok, was just wondering what list moderation would end me up with ;-)
[16:29:36] <m&m> winfried: so far, it's periodically checking the editor@ list and junking a bunch of emails
[16:29:43] <m&m> really not more than once a day
[16:29:44] <stpeter> m&m I don't think so
[16:29:50] <winfried> ok
[16:30:08] <m&m> standards@ has maybe one thing a week that needs attention
[16:30:16] <m&m> from what I've noticed
[16:30:44] <m&m> ok, we're behind schedule
[16:30:49] <winfried> yup
[16:30:51] <m&m> any more on access?
[16:31:07] <winfried> nope
[16:31:13] <Lloyd> (shake)
[16:31:24] <Ash> Don't think so
[16:31:29] <m&m> there is a wiki that Steffan got started, so we can capture some of the decisions made here on that page
[16:31:42] <m&m> moving on
[16:31:43] <m&m> 3) Outstanding Work
------------------------------

+ BOSH
+ Deferred XEPs
+ Website updates

[16:32:08] <Ash> + XEP-0060
[16:32:19] <winfried> BOSH: I send a patch to the editor@ fixing a minor type
[16:32:27] <winfried> s/type/typo/
[16:32:32] <m&m> winfried: as soon as possible, please (-:
[16:32:58] <m&m> There is a list of XEP to defer
[16:32:58] <winfried> send it on feb 17th
[16:33:07] <winfried> will resend it...
[16:33:08] <m&m> oh, send not sent
[16:33:10] <m&m> ah
[16:33:25] <m&m> yes, please … it probably got lost in the shuffle from stpeter to !stpeter (-:
[16:33:50] <stpeter> nod
[16:33:53] <winfried> (and I don;t have rights) After that BOSH can be voted upon for final
[16:33:55] <m&m> stpeter: you have the list of XEPs to defer handy?
[16:34:05] <stpeter> m&m: yep, please hold
[16:34:08] <m&m> winfried: /nod
[16:34:21] <m&m> I suggest that we deal with deferment once a month
[16:34:31] <Ash> Sounds sensible
[16:34:44] <m&m> it means some Experimental XEPs will have extended times, but that seems fine to me
[16:34:56] <winfried> that is already current practice not?
[16:35:16] <m&m> winfried: the current practice is that stpeter gets to the deferred XEPs when he can (-:
[16:35:18] <stpeter> the only XEPs to be deferred that I see are 305, 316, and 317
[16:35:22] <m&m> we'll try to be a little more regular with it
[16:35:29] <m&m> stpeter: thanks
[16:36:52] <m&m> for website, I think the only thing left right now is automation, which we already discussed
[16:37:09] <m&m> all the other WP updates I had in my local .todo have been taken care of
[16:37:22] <winfried> for my picture: who has access and can work on the current queue right now?
[16:37:32] <Lloyd> not I
[16:37:36] <m&m> definitely myself and stpter
[16:37:36] <Ash> Nor me
[16:37:53] <m&m> I thought winfried had git access, but I guess that's not the case
[16:38:01] <winfried> nope
[16:38:05] <m&m> I think all of us should have git rights
[16:38:25] <m&m> then you can ping myself or stpeter for the stuff that requires shell access
[16:38:31] <m&m> at least until we get better automation going
[16:38:34] <stpeter> that seems fine for now
[16:38:35] <stpeter> nod
[16:38:38] <m&m> *hint hint Lloyd (-:
[16:38:56] <Lloyd> I will start looking into tooling this week and report back via email/next meeting
[16:39:06] <m&m> thanks
[16:39:24] <m&m> Ash: you mentioned XEP-0060 … are the patches pending?
[16:39:50] <Ash> Not yet. I have started, but don't have much time.
[16:40:05] <m&m> ok, so you're working on patches, but don't have them yet
[16:40:14] <Ash> Yeah
[16:40:16] <m&m> so there's no action for the rest of the editor team (-:
[16:40:20] <Ash> So not to worry
[16:40:26] <Ash> :)
[16:40:28] <m&m> I think that covers #4
[16:40:34] <m&m> er #3
[16:40:35] <m&m> 4) Future Work
------------------------------

+ Automation options
+ Humorous XEP

[16:40:42] <m&m> we've already figured out automation
[16:40:58] <Lloyd> Ash, remind me to talk about patches dwd and I discussed last week
[16:40:59] <m&m> regarding a humorous XEP …
[16:41:13] <Ash> Lloyd: Will do
[16:41:18] <m&m> do we want to try and do one this year? or does someone already have a writeup ready for council sign-off?
[16:41:25] <winfried> well... I suggest we vote on a humorous xep before sxep-0001 is changed :-P
[16:41:48] <m&m> heh
[16:41:53] <m&m> we need an idea first
[16:42:01] <stpeter> I haven't done one of those in years
[16:42:15] <stpeter> they were fun, though
[16:42:24] <winfried> was thinking about ciricular approving bodies for approving humorous xeps
[16:42:34] <stpeter> in London we got to talking about the morse code transport binding - who needs WebSocket? ;-)
[16:42:38] <m&m> winfried: (-:
[16:42:47] <m&m> either of those are fine with me
[16:43:02] <m&m> I think I might have been the one to suggest the morse-code transport, too (-:
[16:43:12] <m&m> if something is to come from this body, I think we would need it ready before next Friday (03/21)
[16:43:32] <m&m> it's just under two weeks, but I know I don't have the time myself
[16:43:50] <winfried> was brainstorming once with steffen on xmpp over humanpowerd two wheeled pedal transport
[16:44:11] <winfried> but I want to have that one implemented before submitting ;-)
[16:44:22] <m&m> haha
[16:44:44] <m&m> remember — "XEP or it doesn't exist". Someone needs to write it before we can publish
[16:45:05] <m&m> any volunteers?
[16:45:33] <stpeter> when was the last humorous XEP published?
[16:45:41] *m&m takes a look
[16:45:43] <winfried> to be honest, xmpp over morse code gives me a bit of a feeling: "been there before"
[16:45:53] <stpeter> 2009
[16:46:00] <stpeter> 2011
[16:46:12] <m&m> yes, XEP-0295
[16:46:18] <winfried> commentory on some current topic (like the json xep) is great
[16:46:32] <m&m> that or another security one
[16:46:41] <winfried> yeah!
[16:46:46] <m&m> the anti-privacy XEP
[16:46:54] <stpeter> the problem with humorous XEPs is that you need to be inspired to write one, and I guess I haven't felt inspired in that way since 2009 :(
[16:47:02] <m&m> stpeter: exactly
[16:47:15] <m&m> and I take the lack of a hand or "I'll do it" to mean we have no volunteers to write it
[16:47:36] <winfried> if someone volunteers with me, I want to write an anti-privacy xep
[16:47:51] <winfried> got some great ideas bubbling up
[16:47:58] <m&m> I don't have the time to do that
[16:48:03] <stpeter> the best humorous specs also have a germ of truth in them
[16:48:05] <m&m> I signed up for too much extra work last week (-:
[16:48:10] <winfried> neither have I ;-)
[16:48:13] <stpeter> m&m: you did!
[16:48:31] <m&m> ok, moving on
[16:48:40] <m&m> 5) Next Meeting
------------------------------

[16:48:50] <winfried> yeah, ping me if anybody wants to be involved
[16:48:53] <Ash> Automated carbons to your local government agency, to save taxpayers money?
[16:49:06] <Lloyd> :)
[16:49:07] <winfried> yep, that kind of stuff@!

[16:49:11] <m&m> I think this meeting is useful
[16:49:21] <m&m> so we should keep doing it
[16:49:28] <Ash> Agree
[16:49:31] <m&m> but do we need/want to do it weekly or bi-weekly?
[16:49:31] <winfried> +1
[16:49:33] <stpeter> shall we add it to the calendar?
[16:49:35] <m&m> monthly is too long
[16:49:39] <winfried> agree
[16:49:41] <m&m> stpeter: I think that makes sense
[16:49:50] <Lloyd> fortnightly seemed to make sense
[16:50:03] <Ash> +1
[16:50:03] <Lloyd> At least until processes/automation settles?
[16:50:20] <Kev> FWIW, I think very short meetings frequently make a lot of sense. But that's just me.
[16:50:23] <m&m> Lloyd: I was about to suggest weekly until we have automation (-:
[16:50:25] <winfried> I have to leave right now...
[16:50:43] <m&m> we're 17 minutes over
[16:50:56] <winfried> I will read it back in the logs, this time usally fits, otherwise best on monday or friday
[16:50:59] <m&m> is everyone ok with resuming next week?
[16:51:00] <Lloyd> m&m fine with that, as long as they aren't all 1hr long :)
[16:51:12] <m&m> no, please no!
[16:51:20] <m&m> 30 minutes
[16:51:25] <Ash> OK
[16:51:27] <m&m> and I'll have a better agenda for next week, really (-:
[16:51:46] <m&m> ok, next meeting on 2014-03-18 @ 16:00 UTC
[16:51:51] <stpeter> yep, cut it off at 30 and we can delay until the next one
[16:51:55] <m&m> exactly
[16:51:56] <Lloyd> oh, a pep node for "selfies"
[16:51:59] <m&m> ok, I say we're done
[16:52:04] *m&m bangs gavel
[16:52:25] <m&m> thanks everyone
[16:52:29] <Lloyd> Cool see you all next week - and every working day until then :)
[16:52:35] <stpeter> Lloyd: :-)
[16:52:37] *m&m puts Lloyd on next weeks agenda (-:
[16:52:37] <Ash> Cheers!
[16:52:55] <Lloyd> You can discuss me all you want
[16:53:01] <m&m> (-:
[16:53:26] <m&m> holy crap … I'm already 31 emails behind since I last checked
[16:53:29] <stpeter> BTW I just edited the postfix config a bit on atlas, but no promises that it will help
[16:53:33] <m&m> which was just before 16:00 UTC
[16:53:43] <m&m> stpeter: we'll see (-:
[16:54:33] <m&m> everyone, be sure to get Kev your info for git access
[16:55:33] <Lloyd> Kev how best to do this?
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[16:56:10] <Kev> Send me it gpg signed using the key you had me sign at the summit? ;)
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