Tuesday, March 18, 2014
editor@muc.xmpp.org
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XEP Editor Team — logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/editor/

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[15:53:07] <m&m> T -10 minutes
[15:53:28] <winfried> Have to leave in T -5 min :-(
[15:54:26] *** Steffen Larsen has joined the room
[15:56:41] <m&m> boo! )-:
[15:58:56] <winfried> good meeting & CU!
[15:59:03] *** winfried has left the room
[15:59:23] <Steffen Larsen> meeting?
[15:59:28] <Steffen Larsen> wasn't it now?
[16:00:09] <Lloyd> yep
[16:00:17] <Steffen Larsen> ohhh ok
[16:00:18] <Steffen Larsen> :-)
[16:00:50] <m&m> in 2 minutes
[16:00:55] <m&m> 16:00 UTC
[16:03:13] <m&m> ding ding ding!
[16:03:30] <m&m> we're missing Winfried with apologies, everyone else here?
[16:03:38] *** Ash shows as "online"
[16:03:45] <Lloyd> peter?
[16:03:46] <Steffen Larsen> ding dong
[16:04:13] <Ash> Hello all!
[16:04:16] <m&m> just pinged him
[16:04:19] <Steffen Larsen> Hi Ash
[16:04:38] <m&m> well, I think we have quorum
[16:04:51] <Steffen Larsen> jup
[16:05:02] <m&m> I should have pushed out an agenda earlier
[16:05:08] <m&m> 0) Roll Call
[16:05:17] <m&m> already have that determined
[16:05:26] <m&m> 1) Status on Automation Options
[16:05:32] <m&m> Lloyd or Ash?
[16:05:35] *** zeank@jwchat.org has joined the room
[16:05:39] *** stpeter has joined the room
[16:05:43] <stpeter> hi
[16:05:44] <Ash> I think Lloyd was looking at that
[16:05:45] <Steffen Larsen> Hi Stefan
[16:05:50] <zeank@jwchat.org> hey ho :)
[16:05:51] <Steffen Larsen> Hi StPeter
[16:06:02] <stpeter> forgot to log into this account
[16:06:10] <m&m> (-:
[16:06:19] <m&m> Lloyd: any updates yet on automation options
[16:06:21] <m&m> ?
[16:06:31] <Lloyd> With apologies, I haven't made much progress, I have scribbled notes but nothing worth sharing yet. Its our very busy time at Surevine and I've been snowed under with other projects too.
[16:06:50] <m&m> Lloyd: completely understand
[16:07:04] <Steffen Larsen> Lloyd: if I can give a hand.. just reach out with your ideas
[16:07:11] <Ash> It's coming up to the end of the financial year in the UK, so we're always busy around this time!
[16:07:14] <m&m> I might send along some of my personal musings for you all to ridicule and marginalize (-:
[16:07:21] <Lloyd> Basic plan is/has been to outline what we can automate, suitable methods of automation. I plan on sharing notes with Steffen Larsen and getting something together properly.
[16:07:27] <Steffen Larsen> super
[16:07:34] <m&m> awesome
[16:07:47] <Lloyd> Intend to share early and build upon it rather than get something concrete first.
[16:08:09] <m&m> is it worthwhile to pester you next week about it?
[16:08:12] <Lloyd> m&m: would be great to have as well.
[16:08:14] <Steffen Larsen> fail first is best. :-)
[16:08:22] <Lloyd> I'm good at failing first.
[16:08:27] <m&m> (-:
[16:08:28] <Steffen Larsen> he he
[16:08:32] <Lloyd> m&m please keep pestering, I can always ignore you :)
[16:08:54] <m&m> hehe
[16:09:05] <m&m> ok, since there's nothing else on automation ...
[16:09:11] <m&m> 2) outstanding work
[16:09:30] <m&m> I think I've gotten all of the requests for ProtoXEPs and Experimental updates out last week, plus BOSH
[16:09:43] <m&m> anyone see anything else come in?
[16:09:44] <zeank@jwchat.org> \o/ :)
[16:09:53] <stpeter> yes, good work m&m!
[16:10:00] <m&m> I'm trying! (-:
[16:10:15] <Lloyd> :D
[16:10:19] <Steffen Larsen> noo I dont think so. But somethines its hard to seperate stuff on the editor list. But great work m&m!
[16:11:02] <stpeter> BTW I have been adding XEP authors to the "accepts" list in mailman - makes it easier to sort through all the spam in the queue
[16:11:20] <m&m> /nod
[16:11:26] <m&m> thanks for that, stpeter
[16:11:33] <Steffen Larsen> super
[16:11:51] <m&m> and I'm relying on those with list admin privs to help sort the other wheat from chaff
[16:11:59] <m&m> I think that includes Winfried and Steffan?
[16:12:11] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:12:11] <m&m> did you guys get admin access to at least editor@ yet?
[16:12:16] *** Simon shows as "online"
[16:12:21] *m&m notes to ask Winfried separately
[16:12:58] *zeank@jwchat.org nods
[16:13:00] <Steffen Larsen> need to create key!
[16:13:03] <m&m> er, Stefan
[16:13:09] <Steffen Larsen> any requirements for the ssh key?
[16:13:13] <m&m> one "f", not two
[16:13:15] <m&m> (-:
[16:13:15] <stpeter> I think it's only me, m&m, and zeank who have list admin privs
[16:13:19] <m&m> right
[16:13:29] <zeank@jwchat.org> maybe stupid question but why would it be so hard to put a spamfilter in between?
[16:13:33] <m&m> I think Winfried volunteered to help with moderating there, too
[16:13:49] <stpeter> zeank@jwchat.org: yes, we're thinking about that too :-)
[16:14:36] <m&m> and that's a task for the i-team to work on, with whatever approvals they need from the Board
[16:14:45] <stpeter> I suppose we could do that just for the editor@ address instead of for the entire mailman install? not sure
[16:14:46] <m&m> they are aware of the issues, though
[16:15:15] <m&m> stpeter: possibly, since this list is the one with the most impact
[16:15:31] <stpeter> all the other lists require subscription in order to post
[16:15:35] <m&m> right
[16:15:53] <m&m> this is the only one that wants looser posting privs
[16:16:01] <m&m> AFAIK
[16:16:21] <stpeter> yes
[16:16:25] <m&m> alright, since there's nothing else on actual editor work outstanding ...
[16:16:31] <m&m> 3) Next Meeting
[16:17:01] <m&m> I personally find a short weekly meeting worthwhile, so lets assume we have something next week
[16:17:07] <Ash> +1
[16:17:14] <m&m> same time, or do we want earlier?
[16:17:30] <Steffen Larsen> hhmm I need to get home from work
[16:17:35] <m&m> 16:00 UTC is now 10:00 my time
[16:17:42] <Steffen Larsen> so 16UTC is fine for me :-)
[16:17:48] <m&m> I know it switches in a couple of weeks for the rest of you
[16:17:49] <stpeter> although not for too much longer I suppose
[16:17:49] <zeank@jwchat.org> jup
[16:18:33] <m&m> well, let's plan on 16:00 UTC for next week, and discuss a possible change when Daylight Savings hits (most of) the rest of the world
[16:18:52] <zeank@jwchat.org> ok
[16:18:57] <Ash> Add that to next week's agenda
[16:18:59] <stpeter> WFM
[16:19:01] <m&m> will do
[16:19:09] <Ash> Will probably affect the council and board too
[16:19:12] <Lloyd> sounds good
[16:19:28] <m&m> 4) Any Other Business
[16:19:48] <m&m> I assumed everything else was stuff we talked about last week, so wasn't a surprise for the unannounced agenda (-:
[16:20:00] <m&m> I have an AOB
[16:20:12] <stpeter> go for it
[16:20:13] <m&m> When it comes to accepting patches
[16:20:55] <m&m> one request came from a non-author, and one came without an actual patch file
[16:21:29] <m&m> for the non-author, I asked the listed authors if it was ok to accept the patches (and it was)
[16:21:40] <m&m> I think that's a reasonable requirement, but it's not documented anywhere that I could see
[16:22:04] <Ash> There are some interesting potential issues with that. What if we can't contact any xep authors?
[16:22:14] <stpeter> side topic: if the person sent large patches, why not make that person an author?
[16:22:17] <m&m> so, my question on this one is — should we update -0143 to be clearer on this?
[16:22:36] <m&m> stpeter: I asked the original author that, and he was reluctant
[16:22:50] <Steffen Larsen> heh difficult question
[16:22:54] <m&m> it is
[16:22:58] <stpeter> m&m: I had the same experience before with that spec or a related one, and it strikes me as odd
[16:23:06] <m&m> I figured
[16:23:28] <m&m> on one hand, adding this person as an author would streamline our process and ease my ethical compass
[16:23:40] <m&m> and the owner of the work is the XSF, not the author
[16:24:14] <m&m> on the other, I don't want to scare serious contributors off by making (seemingly) arbitrary changes
[16:24:37] <Kev> FWIW, I don't think the Editor team is the right group to make decisions about the author list of XEPs.
[16:24:51] <zeank@jwchat.org> true
[16:24:56] <m&m> Kev: I agree, and in this case, I told them I would bring it to the Council
[16:25:14] <stpeter> Ash: we have had authors disappear in the past, and what we do is try to contact them - if that's unsuccessful and someone else wants to become a maintainer, we add the new person
[16:25:28] <Lloyd> agree with Kev, we're just update monkies :)
[16:25:33] <stpeter> after posting to the standards@ list and all
[16:25:59] <m&m> I just think we ought to have this better documented, possibly in a XEP
[16:26:01] <stpeter> but yes, some of this might need to be added to XEP-0001 or XEP-0143 or something
[16:26:07] <stpeter> +1 to m&m
[16:26:12] <Kev> Also FWIW, I think there's a difference betwe 'own' in the legal sense and 'own' in the maintenance sense.
[16:26:20] <m&m> Kev: right
[16:26:24] <stpeter> yes
[16:26:42] <m&m> I think it's within the purview of the editor to make a best effort for maintenance owners
[16:27:12] <Steffen Larsen> can you as an owner give your XEP to others for further maintainance ?
[16:27:22] <Kev> (I also think it'd be good to have a process for adding authors without the existing authors documented)
[16:27:23] <m&m> Steffen Larsen: yes, and that has happened in the past
[16:27:29] <Steffen Larsen> ok
[16:28:14] <m&m> ok, so I think I see consensus for formalizing a process
[16:28:44] <Ash> Would be good to get some of this down and in front of council
[16:28:44] <m&m> for now, let's try to think of our arguments, and put them into a XEP format
[16:28:59] <Ash> (or board in this case?)
[16:29:51] <m&m> My initial thinking is this is a Board matter, but can be readily persuaded in other directions
[16:30:16] <Kev> Fuzzy line for me, I'd go along with either.
[16:30:34] <m&m> I think it comes down to whether it's most appropriate for this to go into XEP-0001, go into XEP-0143, or go into something new
[16:30:53] <m&m> I can bring it up with the council and board tomorrow
[16:30:58] <Kev> 143 doesn't seem right, to me.
[16:31:09] <m&m> Kev: me neither
[16:31:25] <Ash> This feels like a 0001 thing to me
[16:31:26] <m&m> it feels like a change to 1
[16:31:28] <m&m> right
[16:31:43] <stpeter> yeah, me too (at the moment)
[16:31:48] <m&m> how about we approach the board and council for input before we go too much further
[16:31:50] <Kev> Either 1 or a How Editors work XEP.
[16:32:00] <Kev> Both/either seem appropriate.
[16:32:18] <stpeter> I could also see it go into an Editorial Team Procedures document
[16:32:24] <m&m> me, too
[16:33:26] <m&m> the non-patch instance was mostly annoying to me, and I think is best handled with an update to XEP-0143 and/or this new "How to Editor" XEP
[16:33:59] <m&m> I think XEP-0143 ought to be updated to 2119 mandate an actual patch file
[16:34:52] <m&m> so what is the action to be taken from all this discussion
[16:35:01] *m&m wants to end already! (-:
[16:35:02] <Ash> Depends how we want to accept patches. A gitorious merge request would count (although I suppose that;s just a fancy patch)
[16:35:55] <stpeter> "send patches" is a fine policy to me!
[16:35:56] <m&m> I do want to be flexible, but we can't be expected to go hunting around
[16:36:02] <stpeter> yep
[16:36:26] <m&m> it took me almost an hour to suss out what the real changes were for the non-patchfile case
[16:36:39] <m&m> well, an hour including the disruptions
[16:36:55] <Ash> m&m can we get the main points from this and add them to the agenda next week?
[16:37:12] <Steffen Larsen> m&m auch
[16:37:25] <m&m> Ash: I want to see if there's something actionable now first
[16:37:28] <Steffen Larsen> isn't there any requirements for updates of xeps?
[16:38:01] <m&m> Steffen Larsen: 143 provides woefully little requirements on this front
[16:38:22] <m&m> and I'm not aware of any others still in existence
[16:38:43] <m&m> so actions
[16:38:45] <Ash> 143 has a whole section about generating patch files
[16:38:50] <Steffen Larsen> m&m that should be further specified.. that would ease the workload ALOT!
[16:39:05] <Steffen Larsen> Ash: reading
[16:39:14] <Ash> Section 4
[16:39:25] <Ash> Although it uses the term "prefers"
[16:39:43] <m&m> Ash: yes, but I think this is inadequate, and assumes a specific work flow
[16:40:09] <m&m> I'm happy to work on an update to this to be more forceful on the patchfile requirements
[16:40:33] <Steffen Larsen> cool
[16:40:36] <m&m> so that's one action (-:
[16:40:36] <Steffen Larsen> would be good
[16:40:40] <Steffen Larsen> ha ha yes
[16:40:51] <m&m> how about others? Should we approach Council and Board with anything right now?
[16:41:09] <Steffen Larsen> Guys.. I need to get out of here and get some food
[16:41:10] <m&m> or should we draft a new XEP? Or a proposed update to -0001?
[16:41:20] <m&m> Steffen Larsen: I'm trying to end this quickly (-:
[16:41:24] <Steffen Larsen> propose an update for 0001 would be great
[16:41:30] <Steffen Larsen> ok.. waiting 1 min more. ;-)
[16:41:45] <Ash> Update to 0001 makes most sense to me
[16:41:48] <m&m> anyone else?
[16:41:58] <m&m> ok, that's two for an update to 0001
[16:42:29] <m&m> alright, so by next week we should think about who's willing to work on said patch
[16:42:39] <Steffen Larsen> ok. bye guys
[16:42:39] <m&m> s/think about/decide on/
[16:42:46] <Lloyd> later!
[16:42:47] <Ash> :)
[16:42:48] <Steffen Larsen> cheers and see you next week
[16:42:50] <Steffen Larsen> :-)
[16:42:52] <m&m> I think that's it, unless you y'all have something else?
[16:43:01] <m&m> er … s/you//
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[16:43:26] <Ash> I can't think what to make for dinner. Does that count?
[16:43:32] <m&m> heh
[16:43:37] <zeank@jwchat.org> lol
[16:43:43] <m&m> I'm going to rule that one out of scope (-:
[16:43:56] <m&m> ok, so that's it
[16:44:01] *m&m dings bell
[16:44:06] <m&m> thanks everyone
[16:44:17] <Ash> m&m have they taken your gavel away?
[16:44:30] <zeank@jwchat.org> bye bye
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[16:44:38] <Ash> Bye everyone!
[16:44:39] <m&m> Ash: I like to change things up
[16:44:58] <Ash> :)
[16:45:01] <m&m> maybe next week it'll be a schrödinger observation (-:
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[16:52:22] <stpeter> oops, I wandered off because I thought we were done :-)
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[17:00:40] <m&m> we are now (-:
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[17:44:53] <stpeter> yeah yeah yeah
[17:50:44] <m&m> I've got a start on updates to xep-README on my gitorius fork
[17:51:18] <m&m> all of it is breaking out the "login to webserver, and" steps into separate <li/>'s
[17:51:38] <m&m> since I keep skipping things in those lists!
[17:56:17] <stpeter> yeah I threw those together quickly before the first editor team meeting
[17:56:27] <stpeter> I knew they needed to be broken out separately
[18:02:48] <stpeter> m&m: shall I add anyone else as list admins?
[18:05:30] <m&m> I think winfried offered to help with moderation
[18:05:50] <m&m> Steffan, Lloyd, and Ash were concentrating on automation
[18:06:25] *m&m wonders off for lunch before addressing draft-miller-xmpp-e2e feedback
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[18:09:42] <stpeter> yep
[18:09:50] <stpeter> I'll add winfried then
[18:09:54] <stpeter> spread the joy :-)
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[19:15:35] *** Ash shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:18:28] *** Ash shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:18:40] *** Ash shows as "online"
[19:31:03] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:31:12] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[19:37:50] *** m&m shows as "online"
[19:51:17] *** Ash shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:56:19] *** Ash shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:57:34] *** Ash shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:57:43] *** Ash shows as "online"
[20:12:14] *** Kev shows as "away"
[20:16:57] *** Ash has left the room
[20:19:03] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:22:13] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[20:39:47] *** m&m shows as "online"
[20:43:28] *** stpeter has left the room
[21:50:58] *** Kev shows as "away"
[22:00:35] *** Kev shows as "online"
[22:19:40] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[22:22:15] *** Kev shows as "away"
[22:24:36] *** m&m shows as "online"
[22:35:16] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[23:21:19] *** m&m has left the room