Tuesday, November 07, 2017
operators@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Operators Room | http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/operators

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[08:41:30] <edhelas> I have more and more accounts created from Indonesia that use movim.eu as money transfer solution
[08:41:46] <edhelas> https://software-otomax.com/
[08:41:57] <edhelas> https://tigerengine.co.id/
[08:42:08] <edhelas> you should have a look at connected sessions on your servers
[08:42:18] <edhelas> resources are TigerEngine and OtomaXC
[08:42:39] <edhelas> *OtomaX
[08:42:56] <edhelas> thoses accounts are now systematically deleted from my server
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[08:44:40] <edhelas> http://lebamboledirosita.blogspot.nl/2016/10/roket-pulsa-irs-otomax-tiger-engine.html
[08:45:34] *** pod shows as "online"
[08:46:20] <edhelas> SIP resources as well by the way
[08:48:46] <edhelas> JIDs are often containing "reload", "oasis", "center", "terminal" or "pulsa"
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[08:55:19] <Ge0rG> edhelas: I've got a bunch of those too, with gazillions of messages in MAM :(
[08:55:29] <edhelas> well time to cleanup them
[08:55:44] <Ge0rG> edhelas: Can you read whatever language that is?
[08:55:54] <edhelas> /SIP /OtomaX /TigerEngine
[08:55:55] <Zash> Google Translate
[08:55:57] <Ge0rG> I'm not sure it is really money transfer
[08:56:20] <edhelas> also resources that are starting with "FF"
[08:57:25] <Ge0rG> I mean: you can't transfer money over XMPP (yet). So whatever they do is only a kind of information / approval flow.
[08:57:40] <Ge0rG> Maybe people are using it to pay for their daily expenses, and you kick them out?
[08:57:49] <Ge0rG> What if they can't afford their food without our XMPP servers?
[08:57:52] <Zash> <error:payment-required/>
[09:02:24] <edhelas> Ge0rG I'm fine with that, the issue is that they are using a server in europe, and those services are not free for some/most of them
[09:03:02] <edhelas> also the fact that it's quite ugly and create a lots of MAM messages, I'm talking about 100 of Mb each weeks/months
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[14:58:05] <Maranda> just hard limit the number of stored messages per account...?
[15:00:34] *** sam shows as "online"
[15:00:46] <Maranda> 100 Megabytes of mam messages mean hundred of thousands ++, I don't see a usecase for a *normal* user if MAM is about account entities.
[15:01:45] <Ge0rG> I've manually disabled MAM for the accounts with 100k+ messages in the log
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[15:04:56] <Holger> edhelas: FWIW, you could tell the server to not enable MAM storage for a given account until a MAM request is issued.
[15:05:02] <Ge0rG> I wish prosdy would just default to MAM=off
[15:05:37] <edhelas> Holger how ?
[15:05:45] <Holger> Ge0rG: And let clients auto-enable it?
[15:05:50] <Maranda> Well... my server is configured to allow 5000 stored messages per account after which the oldest will be discarded. Also MAM *SHOULDN'T* be enabled by default, but users *SHOULD* enable it with prefs explicitly.
[15:06:13] <Ge0rG> What Maranda said.
[15:06:13] <Holger> Maranda: Clients or users?
[15:06:23] <Holger> Maranda, Ge0rG: Huh. Ugly UX.
[15:06:36] *** Zash shows as "online"
[15:06:38] *** Zash shows as "online"
[15:06:40] <Holger> edhelas:

mod_mam:
request_activates_archiving: true
[15:06:48] <edhelas> thx
[15:07:06] <Maranda> Ge0rG, I implemented MAM so that it's by default disabled until it isn't explicitly enabled by users(/clients).
[15:07:24] <Ge0rG> Holger: it should be automatically enabled by a client doing a MAM query.
[15:07:29] <Ge0rG> but off by default
[15:07:35] <Maranda> Since it's not such a used feature tbh.
[15:07:58] <Holger> Well these things should probably be admin-configurable.
[15:08:12] <Ge0rG> I had to shutdown my server today for ~10mins to compact a 5.5GB SQLite database.
[15:08:23] <edhelas> sqlite O_o
[15:08:33] <Maranda> what's wrong with sqlite?
[15:08:37] <Maranda> >.>
[15:08:40] <edhelas> and why compact, just remove old ones no ?
[15:09:22] <Ge0rG> Maranda: I have to shutdown / SIGSTOP prosody when working on the DB
[15:11:25] <Maranda> Ge0rG, also btw it should be really trivial to change prosody's default mod_mam behaviour, you just need to change the default prefs in the code, if it's not configurable already.
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[15:12:30] <Ge0rG> Maranda: I think the trick is to make it auto-enable MAM on the first _read_ access. https://prosody.im/issues/867
[15:13:00] <Ge0rG> Zash doesn't want me to have nice things... :(
[15:13:05] <Maranda> I don't agree, there're prefs.
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[15:13:15] <Maranda> the above would be a hack.
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[15:13:56] <Maranda> A client or user through it can just change the prefs to enable or change logging.
[15:16:23] <Ge0rG> Maranda: are the prefs a tristate of off/on/not-set?
[15:16:49] <Maranda> Nope... you can do much more elaborate things with prefs.
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[15:17:11] <Maranda> Like don't log anything cept these jids etc.
[15:17:32] <Ge0rG> I mean: can the client determine if the pref is "off" or "not yet set"?
[15:17:47] <Maranda> Yes, by retrieving prefs
[15:18:07] <Maranda> Not set doesn't exist
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[15:19:44] <Maranda> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#prefs
[15:19:59] <Maranda> see 6.1.1
[15:20:19] <Holger> I agree it's a hack.
[15:20:26] <Holger> But currently quite useful in practice ...
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[15:20:52] <Ge0rG> I don't think it's a hack. We could just standardize it.
[15:21:33] <Ge0rG> Or maybe add a business rule for client-controlled initial activation
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[15:22:15] <Ge0rG> Maranda: you lied. "The <prefs> element MUST be present and contain the current default archiving policy."
[15:22:28] <Maranda> I didn't lie
[15:22:46] <Maranda> ‎[16:22:53] ‎Maranda‎: Not set doesn't exist
[15:23:08] <Maranda> Tell me where I lied.
[15:23:14] <Ge0rG> So the client can't determine if the prefs were set before or not.
[15:23:28] <Holger> It can query them with an IQ-get.
[15:23:35] <Maranda> O_o, why would it need to
[15:23:42] <Holger> Example 19/20 in 0313.
[15:23:52] <Ge0rG> Holger: and the server MUST respond with prefs.
[15:23:58] <Maranda> You just retrieve the prefs like I said.
[15:24:05] <Ge0rG> Holger: there is no way for the server to tell "not yet configured"
[15:24:10] <Holger> Ge0rG: Ah right.
[15:24:23] <Ge0rG> 16:22:17 Ge0rG> I mean: can the client determine if the pref is "off" or "not yet set"?
16:22:32 Maranda> Yes, by retrieving prefs
[15:24:33] <Ge0rG> that was the lie!
[15:24:41] <Maranda> Because that's not a possibility, there're 3 defaults
[15:24:45] <Maranda> read the xep >.>
[15:25:05] <Maranda> always, never, roster
[15:25:11] <Ge0rG> Maranda: my point is: there is no way for the client to find out "hey, this account never used MAM before, we should enable it"
[15:25:38] <Ge0rG> Maranda: so the server-side hack of enabling MAM on the first query is actually sensible
[15:25:57] <Ge0rG> Maybe I should write a note to the LC thread.
[15:26:11] <Maranda> No it's not, you just retrieve prefs, and then eventually set logging accordingly.
[15:26:31] <Holger> And fight against your other client which does it the other way round?
[15:26:36] <Maranda> That seems an overcomplication for "I dunno what"
[15:26:56] <Ge0rG> Maranda: you are missing my point
[15:27:32] <Ge0rG> Maranda: I want MAM disabled until the user has a client that supports MAM.
[15:27:45] <Ge0rG> Maranda: and then automatically enabled
[15:27:54] <Maranda> No I get it (now), but that's not a server problem, if you use multiple clients kicking each other in the nuts the server shouldn't deal about it for you.
[15:28:19] <Ge0rG> Maranda: because there is no "not yet configured" value, the clients can't know if they need to do the initial activation or if the user is paranoid
[15:28:33] <Maranda> You want an element stating when it was last configured? Propose it.
[15:28:34] <Ge0rG> Maranda: so you still are not getting it :(
[15:28:38] <Ge0rG> Maranda: no!
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[15:29:17] <Ge0rG> Maranda: I want a UX where the first MAM-capable client can automatically determine that it's the first and either auto-enable or ask the user. Once.
[15:29:25] <Maranda> Ge0rG, you ain't getting me bud, they. don't. need. to.
[15:29:50] <Maranda> A client needs to figure what's the actual configuration and default, *then* deal with it.
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[15:30:08] <Maranda> You're overcomplicating something which otherwise is simple.
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[15:30:18] <Ge0rG> Maranda: except it's not simple
[15:31:03] <Holger> It's simply not possible without changing 0313 :-)
[15:31:16] <Holger> Ge0rG: Anyway isn't the hack like 5 lines of Lua?
[15:31:21] <Ge0rG> Holger: it's possible on the server side with the "hack"
[15:31:24] <Maranda> Yes, so propose it as I said.
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[15:31:50] <Maranda> and then, a server implementation of MAM may not allowing setting prefs, what would you do in that case...?
[15:32:08] <Holger> Ge0rG: Yes I meant it's not possible for the client to do the right thing with the current 0313.
[15:32:12] <Ge0rG> Maranda: commit suicide.
[15:32:17] <Maranda> .
[15:32:51] <Ge0rG> Maranda: but yeah, see. It's getting more and more complicated.
[15:33:12] <Ge0rG> Maranda: I suppose if the MAM policy is enforced by the server, there is no "initial undefined" state
[15:33:38] <Maranda> I said that ages ago, that's what the current protocol provides.
[15:33:52] <Ge0rG> Maranda: you said what, where?
[15:34:14] <Maranda> ‎[16:22:53] ‎Maranda‎: Not set doesn't exist
‎[16:22:53] ‎Maranda‎: Not set doesn't exist
[15:34:25] <Maranda> bbl
[15:34:27] <Holger> Ge0rG: "It's not possible with the current protocol." Marzanna: "You're wrong! It's not possible with the current protocol!"
[15:34:28] <Ge0rG> *shrug*
[15:34:34] <Holger> s/Marzanna/Maranda
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[15:36:02] <Ge0rG> So "I said that ages ago" was not a post to standards@
[15:36:33] <Holger> Time is relative.
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