Monday, April 16, 2018
operators@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Operators Room | http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/operators

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[09:07:13] *** Tim shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
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[10:38:05] *** pod shows as "online"
[10:40:50] *** 404.city shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Автостатус 'Недоступен' по причине бездействия более 15 мин)"
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[10:47:44] *** 404.city shows as "away" and his status message is " (Автостатус 'Отошел' по причине бездействия более 5 мин)"
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[14:04:31] *** 404.city shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Автостатус 'Недоступен' по причине бездействия более 15 мин)"
[14:10:58] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[14:10:59] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[14:17:48] *** pod shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 7 min)"
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[16:17:25] <nuron> @ping trashserver.net
[16:17:29] <nuron> @ping shreddox.ei
[16:17:30] <Echo1> nuron: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: DNS resolution failed
[16:17:31] *** philipp has left the room
[16:17:34] <nuron> @ping shreddox.eu
[16:17:37] <Echo1> nuron: Pong from shreddox.eu in 3.253 seconds
[16:18:56] <Echo1> nuron: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: connection-timeout
[16:19:04] <nuron> @ping trashserver.net
[16:20:06] <UsL> Its down. First i thought it was my usual problem with gajim and wicd again.
[16:20:26] *** UsL has left the room
[16:20:34] <Echo1> nuron: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: connection-timeout
[16:21:18] <nuron> > Its down. First i thought it was my usual problem with gajim and wicd again.
Yes, trashserver.net is down. There is a problem with mam_muc module. I think Thomas try to fix it..
[16:21:33] <nuron> Have the same problem with prosody after I updated the modules
[16:22:56] *** SamWhited has left the room
[16:23:48] <nuron> @ping trashserver.net
[16:23:52] <Echo1> nuron: Pong from trashserver.net in 4.023 seconds
[16:23:57] <nuron> Its up again
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[16:28:45] <MattJ> What problem, do you know?
[16:30:03] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[16:30:21] <nuron> The mam_muc module doesn't work...
[16:31:52] <Holger> Maybe it's this: <https://hg.prosody.im/prosody-modules/rev/39994c6bb314>?
[16:33:10] <nuron> I will send it Thomas..
[16:33:12] <nuron> Thanks
[16:33:48] <Martin> He just States there is 'a problem' https://social.tchncs.de/@trashserver
[16:34:14] <Martin> And earlier ranted about prosody and MySQL 😃
[16:34:23] <nuron> Of course, because I have texted him that mam muc doesn't work ;)
[16:34:38] <Holger> There are no problems, there are opportunities.
[16:35:26] <Martin> Challenges 😃
[16:35:34] *** SamWhited has left the room
[16:35:59] <nuron> We'll see
[16:37:16] <Holger> Martin: Isn't challenges the thing we had 10 years ago, while we've now realized this still sounds way too negative? I might be mixing things up.
[16:38:04] <Martin> Holger: maybe I'm not up to date with these euphemisms
[16:38:44] <Holger> The trashserver admin sees an opportunity to test https://github.com/ortuman/jackal it seems :-)
[16:38:54] <Martin> Lets call everything celebration and try to solve all problems with party and dope 😃
[16:39:02] <Holger> \o/
[16:40:02] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[16:40:32] <Martin> > The trashserver admin sees an opportunity to test https://github.com/ortuman/jackal it seems :-)
It seems he is eveb thinking about getting involved in development
[16:40:48] <Martin> .even
[16:40:58] <nuron> Yes, he is
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[16:43:01] <Maranda> MySQL
[16:43:01] *** philipp has joined the room
[16:43:20] *Maranda points with enphasis
[16:44:46] <Holger> It's-bad-soo-bad-Postgres-soooo-much-bettta!
[16:45:29] <Maranda> Maybe but since everything supports it while most doesn't support the other
[16:45:29] <SamWhited> I can't tell if that was sarcasm or not, but it really is… if you have a datbase that you've started with that you're forced to use, fair enough. If you're starting fresh and use MySQL you're just asking to lose data.
[16:45:36] *** SamWhited has left the room
[16:46:20] <Maranda> I'll just keep swearing in dead languages at it whenever InnoDB tables just decide to corrupt 'emselves
[16:46:25] <Holger> Maranda: Oh I thought this was the rant you were about to make :-) I'm not into SQL engines and don't care.
[16:46:27] <SamWhited> I say that, InnoDB is actually a fairly nice storage backend in a lot of ways. But MySQL's nonsense still makes it not worth using.
[16:47:29] <SamWhited> Mostly innodb won't corruptp itself to my knowledge, but it will decide that you obviously don't know what you're doing with your query and it should make a lot of assumptions and corrupt your data
[16:48:03] <Maranda> SamWhited, *my* query? 😎
[16:48:28] <SamWhited> Everybody's query!
[16:48:58] <Holger> SamWhited: You lost me, InnoDB won't corrupt itself but what?
[16:49:25] <Maranda> The queries aren't *mine* I'd need to ask the web junkies who wrote 'em. But not that it matters much
[16:49:51] <Maranda> PostGRE didn't corrupt with the equivalent queries
[16:50:04] <Holger> SamWhited: You can get it to corrupt data with queries that are bogus in some way? Or with valid queries InnoDB incorrectly considers bogus?
[16:50:22] <SamWhited> Holger: Sorry, I'm just ranting. As an example, mysql in its default mode will happily decide that because you accidentally queried for where intcolumn = '1_whatever' that you *obviously* meant hat to be "where intcolumn = 1" and it will select that and insert data even though your query was a mistake and you were trying to query against a string column or something
[16:50:34] <SamWhited> Holger: with invalid queries that shouldn't run
[16:51:00] <SamWhited> It also ignores constraints in a lot of cases; it's trivial to make non-nullable columns contain an ull.
[16:51:00] <Holger> Ah, I see.
[16:51:33] <SamWhited> It's worth noting that you can turn all this off and that mysql people will swear that this makes it fine… but naturally you have to know that and go to more effort to have any sort of data consistency.
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[16:51:55] <Maranda> SamWhited apparently though saving caches in MySQL "is not a thing" while it causes no issues in pgsql
[16:51:57] <SamWhited> Also, the utf-8 type isn't actually wide enough to encode utf-8… so they have another utf-8-for-real-this-time type that does it right… the whole thing really is a joke.
[16:52:20] <SamWhited> Maranda: saving caches? I'm not sure what you meant by that, sounds bad though.
[16:52:28] <Holger> We do that :-)
[16:52:32] <SamWhited> I have wasted a lot of time trying to make things work on mysql… so I'm a bit bitter now :)
[16:52:33] <Holger> With InnoDB.
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[16:52:47] *** fp-tester shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[16:53:08] <Holger> (Saving/restoring it's main buffer/cache thing on restart, I mean.)
[16:53:16] <SamWhited> ah, gotcha
[16:53:33] <Maranda> I had Orchard storing page caches in MySQL and it was corruption all over until I figured it was that
[16:54:05] <Maranda> The same wouldn't do a thing in PG
[16:54:08] <SamWhited> Interesting; I don't know how innodb stores pages, I'd be curious to know why that lead to corruption.
[16:55:36] <Holger> It seems to work just fine for as. As usual with anecdotal evidence ...
[16:55:42] <Holger> For us even.
[16:56:00] <Holger> (Or maybe we're talking about different features.)
[16:57:34] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[16:57:54] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:57:55] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[16:57:59] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:59:17] <Maranda> I don't care about the database (engine), as long as it's supported by the stuff I need to use and doesn't cause hassles.
[16:59:57] <Holger> This is not how flame wars work.
[17:00:03] <Maranda> :P
[17:00:08] <MattJ> One of the ways of making something not cause hassle is making sure you use the right thing for the right job
[17:00:16] <Maranda> On the xmpp server I proudly use flat files for a reason.
[17:00:49] <SamWhited> MySQL in general will cause hassle though… I don't think there's a job it's uniquely suited for. If you want speed, don't use a relational database. If you want data consistency, use a different relational database.
[17:01:01] <Maranda> MattJ, are you trying to citate Scotty on me :P?
[17:01:03] <SamWhited> The only reason to use mysql is because you already have a database that uses it and you're stuck with it.
[17:01:16] *** probably has left the room
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[17:02:23] <Maranda> SamWhited, or that the stuff you need to use or that people need you to use requires it?
[17:02:37] <SamWhited> Yah, fair
[17:03:02] <SamWhited> Although I'd also consider using other tools at that point; requiring mysql gives me no confidence in your <insert project> or that it won't lose my data.
[17:03:05] *** SamWhited has left the room
[17:03:12] <SamWhited> But that's obviously not always an option.
[17:04:00] <Holger> SamWhited: We've been using hints to fix MySQL's optimizer choosing wrong indices for weird corner cases. I hear that's frowned upon in the Postgres universe, Postgres should just always get it right and if it doesn't, post a bug report. Sounds really good to me, except if there's a realistic chance I could run into the situation where I have to post a bug report and wait for a fix.
[17:04:05] *** zuglufttier shows as "online"
[17:04:26] <Maranda> SamWhited, I just give you an example, all mainstream web analytics apps (mostly php) don't or badly support pgsql
[17:04:39] <Holger> Of course there may really be enough magic in Postgres that this won't happen in practice, I have no idea.
[17:05:11] <Holger> Apart from that I've seen long lists of reasons to prefer Postgres and not much vice-versa, yes.
[17:05:19] <SamWhited> Holger: I have never had it get it wrong, but if it does I don't think it's impossible to direct it to use a different index, they just ask that you also file a bug report.
[17:05:42] <Maranda> Holger, well posting a bug report about MySQL doesn't work much better either...
[17:05:50] <SamWhited> That being said, the data for most of the projects I've worked on wasn't that complex, so it may have trouble in places. I'm sure it's not right 100% of the time.
[17:06:14] <Holger> SamWhited: As I understood it there's no explicit directive to do that (on purpose). But there may be tricks to do it of course.
[17:06:24] <Maranda> I'm not sure from how much time in practice MySQL workbench migration from Postgres is just plainly broken.
[17:06:35] <Holger> Maranda: My point was that MySQL offers you a workaround for the time until the bug is fixed.
[17:06:48] *** Brandensittich shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[17:06:51] *** Brandensittich shows as "online"
[17:07:00] <SamWhited> Holger: yah, don't listen to me, I thought there was but I don't see it now. Might have been cockroach DB feature that I'm mixing up or something.
[17:07:31] *** Brandensittich shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[17:07:58] <Maranda> Good thing I'm not a DB expert at all
[17:08:01] <Maranda> :P
[17:08:04] <SamWhited> Does innodb support multicolumn indexes? I've purged my mysql knowledge after leaving a previous job…
[17:08:09] *** Brandensittich shows as "online"
[17:08:15] <Holger> Oh yes it does.
[17:08:19] <Holger> SQLite does :-)
[17:08:49] *** Brandensittich shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[17:08:53] *** Brandensittich shows as "online"
[17:10:32] <Maranda> https://upload.lightwitch.org:5280/share/335b8d23-0aca-4a81-966d-0683a9055137/scottySays.jpg
[17:10:37] <Maranda> MattJ, ^
[17:12:13] <Holger> SamWhited: But I have no real doubt that Postgres is probably the superior product. MySQL's success story seems to boil down to "everyone uses it" and that's basically how I got to know it better than Postgres as well.
[17:12:49] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[17:12:56] <Maranda> Also now it's Oracle's says it all.
[17:12:58] <SamWhited> Holger: yah, it was the same with me the first time I used a database, "well this seems to be what everyone is using, must be the best"
[17:13:35] <SamWhited> It's also "fast", which is why a lot of people like it. But it's speed comes from taking shortcuts that lead to data inconsistency like not checking constraints so you probably want something else if that's why you're using it…
[17:14:40] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:15:11] <SamWhited> Maranda: there's always MariaDB in that case (the non-oracle fork which is actually what I assume people are using for the most part when they say 'mysql' these days)
[17:15:41] <Maranda> and if it's speed me thinks Pgsql10 is faster anyways now
[17:15:42] <SamWhited> When I say we used "MySQL" at a previous job, we were actually on MariaDB I think. I shouldn't conflate the two, but I forget sometimes.
[17:16:27] <SamWhited> err, no, that's not true either, we had both. Gosh I'm forgetting all this.
[17:17:17] <Maranda> SamWhited, except afair MariaDB has no Windows release so I'm stuck with Oracle's :P
[17:17:27] <Maranda> \\o
[17:17:29] <Maranda> o//
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[17:19:13] <Holger> SamWhited: True in my case, I meant MariaDB when I said MySQL.
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[17:21:32] <nuron> mam_muc error mod_mam_muc should be loaded only on a MUC component, not normal hosts

i found this in the prosody logs...
[17:21:37] <nuron> what does it mean?
[17:21:53] <Maranda> what it says.
[17:22:09] <Maranda> that you're trying to load it somewhere which is not a MUC component.
[17:22:31] <nuron> but how can i fix that? i have no idea
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[17:23:43] <Maranda> put it in modules_enabled = {} pertaining to (aka below) whatever *Component "..." "muc"* section?
[17:24:02] <Maranda> and not somewhere else or globally or somesuch
[17:26:51] <nuron> I'm sorry my English is not very well. I will try to understand..
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[17:28:19] <nuron> I have mam_muc in the modules_enabled list and in the virtual host part... Which one should I delete?
[17:29:12] <SamWhited> nuron: both
[17:29:25] <nuron> Okay
[17:29:27] <SamWhited> Component "conference.example.org" "muc"
modules_enabled = {
"mam_muc",
}
[17:29:30] <nuron> An then?
[17:29:33] <SamWhited> Put it under the "Component" line
[17:30:22] <nuron> Yes, there is it. Between only name, restrict_room_creation and max_history_messages
[17:30:27] *** Brandensittich shows as "online"
[17:30:36] <nuron> Component "conference.shreddox.eu" "muc"
name = "Shreddox Muc's"
restrict_room_creation = false
max_history_messages = 100
modules_enabled = { "mam_muc" }

[17:30:42] <nuron> thats the part
[17:30:58] <SamWhited> That one is correct, you can remove the other one.
[17:31:20] <nuron> okay, i've done so. restart prosody now?
[17:31:37] <SamWhited> Yup, that should fix it :)
[17:31:44] <nuron> i'll try
[17:31:48] <nuron> just a second
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[17:32:12] <Maranda> no don't restart
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[17:32:27] <nuron> so, prosody is up again
[17:32:27] <nuron> lets have a look
[17:32:34] <Maranda> (that's pointless I think)
[17:32:38] <Maranda> .
[17:32:40] *** nuron shows as "online"
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[17:32:56] *Maranda is too slow, and needs a shower.
[17:32:57] <Maranda> brb
[17:33:04] <nuron> why no restart?
[17:33:20] *** zuglufttier shows as "online"
[17:33:38] <nuron> there is no mam yet
[17:33:46] <nuron> no mucmam
[17:33:53] <nuron> 1:1 mam should work
[17:33:55] <SamWhited> nuron: what version of Prosody is this?
[17:33:59] <nuron> 0.10
[17:34:30] <SamWhited> Ah, it's not fully compatible with 0.10. It should work partially, but some clients won't be able to detect it I think
[17:34:36] <nuron> i have updated the modules today a few hours ago and since this update mam_muc dont work..
[17:34:40] <SamWhited> See the note under "Compatibility" here: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_mam_muc.html
[17:34:45] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:35:00] <nuron> but i have used it three month ago and everything works fine
[17:35:08] <nuron> with prosody 0.10 as well
[17:35:32] <SamWhited> I'm not sure when this happened; someone in the prosody room might be able to give you more information
[17:35:44] <nuron> i will check the link first
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[20:00:55] <nuron> https://haste.tchncs.de/yujumudolo.pas

That was also in the logs
[20:01:49] <nuron> and very often this log:

conference.shreddox.eu:mam_muc debug <history xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/muc' since='2018-04-16T18:33:05.221Z'/>

[20:02:05] <nuron> dont know what to do :/
[20:02:20] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
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[20:27:06] <Maranda> Apr 16 20:24:26 s2sin76a5ad0 debug Incoming s2s connection
Apr 16 20:24:26 s2sin76a5ad0 debug Incoming s2s received <stream:stream version='1.0' xmlns='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams'>
Apr 16 20:24:26 mod_s2s debug sending: <?xml version='1.0'?>
Apr 16 20:24:26 mod_s2s debug sending: <stream:stream xmlns:stream='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams' version='1.0' id='28cb310f-b8fb-4398-8527-8c8eabeb4913' xmlns:db='jabber:server:dialback' xmlns='jabber:server'>
Apr 16 20:24:26 s2sin76a5ad0 warn No 'to' on stream header from unknown host means we can't offer any features
Apr 16 20:24:26 mod_s2s debug Sending stream features: <stream:features/>
Apr 16 20:24:26 mod_s2s debug sending: <stream:features>
Apr 16 20:24:26 s2sin76a5ad0 debug Received[s2sin_unauthed]: <verify id='167c0bd9' xmlns='jabber:server:dialback' to='lightwitch.org' from='jit.si'>ca4847b1d2223b51899d27cfbce08a44153544b49bfc4ce45ddacfe8b58b8d83</verify>

[20:27:10] <Maranda> wowow
[20:27:13] <Maranda> that's ancient
[20:27:20] <Maranda> @version jit.si
[20:27:21] <Echo1> Maranda: jit.si is running Openfire version 3.10.3 on Linux 4.4.0-22-generic (amd64) - Java 1.8.0_91
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[20:28:41] <SamWhited> nuron: I'd ask in the prosody room, they're more likely to be able to help you.
[20:28:56] <SamWhited> xmpp:prosody@conference.prosody.im?join
[20:29:15] <nuron> im allready there ;)
[20:29:34] <Maranda> Hmm I almost thought it was jabberd, but I vaguely remember OF doing it to verify dialback streams (or some such)
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