Wednesday, November 21, 2018
operators@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Operators Room | http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/operators

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[09:04:46] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[09:09:38] *Maranda has solved that issue long ago.
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[09:09:57] <Maranda> rate == still 0.
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[09:17:22] <Ge0rG> Maranda: you solved Jabber spam?
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[09:20:16] <edhelas> he disabled s2s
[09:20:41] <Maranda> Ge0rG, I'm not sure how appropriate that "solved" acceptation is, but receive rate is 0, it doesn't manage to get through.
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[09:21:42] <Ge0rG> Maranda: there are two relevant metrics in a filter, false acceptance rate and false rejection rate. The former is 0, which is good, but what about the latter?
[09:21:46] <Maranda> edhelas dunno about you, you may need to do that, but I'm reknowingly a tid smarter than a monkey ;)
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[09:22:40] <Maranda> Ge0rG, it's 0.
[09:24:41] <Ge0rG> Maranda: you have a spam filter that doesn't block any legitimate messages, but all spam? You should be a billionnaire by now.
[09:26:06] <edhelas> maybe he's the one generating all this spam 🤔
[09:26:26] <Maranda> Ge0rG, I should? Good to know.
[09:27:57] <Maranda> edhelas, maybe you should just focus on getting Movim to work decently on all platform instead of making stupid statements ;).
[09:28:06] <Ge0rG> Maranda: you can rent your spam filter out, to desperate people like me, who maintain complex spam filter lists and still end up with dozens of false positives every day
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[09:28:57] <Ge0rG> Maranda: maybe edhelas is not the one making stupid statements ;)
[09:31:13] <Maranda> He for sure is Ge0rG, but that's the late fashion, pick every statement Maranda makes for how truthful it may be isn't it?
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[09:32:37] <Maranda> Alas like what I use and its concept wasn't published and available already.
[09:32:57] <Ge0rG> Maranda: see, I'm doing some work on blocking XMPP spam, and I have a feeling for the complexity and the trade-offs, and there is no 100% solution to it.
[09:34:18] <Maranda> Ge0rG, currently there's a 100% solution for it as bots on XMPP are very dumb, the fact that you or your users may not like the trade-offs for it is *yet* another matter.
[09:34:32] <Ge0rG> Maranda: so either your solution is not generally applicable or you must be cheating your numbers.
[09:34:45] <Ge0rG> yes, the bots are dumb.
[09:34:50] <Ge0rG> At least most of them.
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[09:35:07] <Ge0rG> Maranda: so where can I read up on your solution?
[09:35:12] <Maranda> If I use it on lightwitch.org it's very applicable
[09:38:15] <Maranda> just look at mod_spim_block Ge0rG it's no secret or rocket science, and I don't see why I should cheat on numbers if I say it reduced my spim rate (lightwitch.org's) to 0 why should I be lying? The only complaint you could make is that my numbers are a bit limited to make a valid sample, not that I'm cheating on 'em.
[09:39:37] <Ge0rG> Maranda: is there documentation for how mod_spim_block works?
[09:40:05] <Ge0rG> Maranda: I'm not saying you cheat on the false negative rate, I'm saying you cheat on the false positive rate.
[09:40:31] <Ge0rG> How many people don't see the spim blacklist bounce? Or don't bother jumping through the hoops?
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[09:41:41] <Ge0rG> Maranda: if you block s2s on excessive spim, how do you know that no legitimate users on that blocked server want to talk to your users?
[09:42:26] <Ge0rG> all of that goes into the false positive rate.
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[09:47:10] <Maranda> Ge0rG but that "didn't" currently happen on lightwitch.org...? ;) that's a 95% presumption but spim only source triggers the ban hit of 1h, I have a rather large allowance for spim hits (and you could disable that)
[09:47:50] <Maranda> Ge0rG but that "didn't" currently happen on lightwitch.org...? ;) that's a 95% presumption but spim only source triggers the ban for 1h, I have a rather large allowance for spim hits (and you could disable that)
[09:48:35] <Ge0rG> Maranda: so you don't know.
[09:48:40] <Ge0rG> Maranda: so you don't know for sure.
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[09:56:51] <Maranda> 100% I can't if a ban triggers Ge0rG, I can only make an assumption on what gets banned the servers involved and the number I can gather from logs (in conformance with my privacy policy), but since it's months and months of data. they're very accurate, I sort of know the rate of remote messaging traffic and to which servers they usually go and come from on my *small* server. And when I see spim originating from a remote server which usually carries legit traffic I can act accordingly.
[09:57:12] <Maranda> 100% I can't if a ban triggers Ge0rG, I can only make an assumption on what gets banned the servers involved and the number I can gather from logs (in conformance with my privacy policy), but since it's months and months of data. They're very accurate, I sort of know the rate of remote messaging traffic and to which servers they usually go and come from on my *small* server. And when I see spim originating from a remote server which usually carries legit traffic I can act accordingly.
[09:58:30] <Ge0rG> Maranda: all I wanted to say is that your solution isn't perfect either.
[09:58:40] <Ge0rG> it's just making different trade-offs.
[10:00:33] <Maranda> Ge0rG, I never said it is, I said that the rate I get is 0, if you want I can change that the false positive is *very likely* 0 but that doesn't change the fact that if you disabled the s2s ban that would really turn into 0.
[10:00:51] <Maranda> at least for the moment.
[10:01:10] <Maranda> and for the area of coverage of mod_spim_block.
[10:01:49] <Ge0rG> Maranda: the false positive rate is about legitimate messages blocked as spam. So disabling s2s would turn that to 100%
[10:02:43] <Maranda> erm "how disabling the s2s ban" equates to "disabling s2s" Ge0rG..?
[10:03:21] <Ge0rG> oh, sorry. Misread you on that.
[10:04:04] <Ge0rG> Maranda: you need to also account for all the legitimate remote users who tried to contact one of your users, got rejected and gave up at that moment.
[10:04:25] <Ge0rG> or didn't manage to click the link / do the captcha / whatever you have there.
[10:04:35] <Ge0rG> or didn't receive the error.
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[10:09:13] <Maranda> Ge0rG, the server will send a readable message with instructions to the user, if I have to take in account for "literal monkeys" or people not willing to solve the challenge then that number can never be zero, but that's stupid imho, I made it so that even as annoying as it may be humans will always be able to solve the challenge.
[10:09:42] <Ge0rG> Maranda: I'd like to test that, what do I need to do?
[10:10:14] <Ge0rG> Maranda: will it be triggered by a subscription request or a message? do you have a JID I can test it on?
[10:10:17] <Maranda> send me a message or presence sub to maranda@lightwitch.org
[10:11:36] <Ge0rG> > Greetings, this is the lightwitch.org server before sending a message or presence subscription to this user, please visit https://meaveen.lightwitch.org/spim/ and input the following code in the form: jB6v1S/+rm/GklakBaPHvcYX7Rg=
Is that a one or an L?
[10:12:31] <Ge0rG> Maranda: so you just lost all people who don't know how to copy&paste base64 blobs. Also people using a client without partial copy&paste
[10:13:07] <Maranda> do you want me to add "copy & paste", I wondering are you just arguing for the heck of it :P?
[10:13:09] <Ge0rG> > What's the result of the following operation, 3 multiplicated by 21:
Also rather high requirements on math skills
[10:13:31] <Ge0rG> Maranda: I'm saying that what you've made is a nerd filter
[10:13:35] <Maranda> Ge0rG, high requirements :P?
[10:14:22] <Ge0rG> Maranda: multiplication of numbers >10 is a high requirement, unfortunately
[10:15:23] <Maranda> Ge0rG, tbh the only high requirement I knew of was division or any value not addition, subtraction, multiplication of upto 2 digits values
[10:15:37] <Maranda> Ge0rG, tbh the only high requirement I knew of was division of any value not addition, subtraction, multiplication of upto 2 digits values
[10:16:09] <Ge0rG> Maranda: you could at least put the token into the URL parameter and let the user only fill out the math.
[10:17:03] <Ge0rG> Maranda: you also lost everybody who doesn't speak english
[10:17:54] <Maranda> Ge0rG, that removes a step, so it's not possible.
[10:18:04] <Ge0rG> Maranda: it removes what step?
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[10:23:23] <Maranda> Ge0rG, challenge step, not that it's really a step but it's enough for most dumb XMPP bots, and xmpp spammers currently do not wish to add a custom parser for my challenges apparently (except some russians who did after like a year or so)
[10:24:17] <Ge0rG> Maranda: it remains a nerd filter, not a spam filter.
[10:24:59] <Maranda> Ge0rG, whatever.
[10:25:53] <Ge0rG> Maranda: does the filter apply if you contact me first and I respond?
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[10:26:23] <Maranda> Ge0rG, if I send you a message you get whitelisted automatically
[10:26:59] <Ge0rG> Maranda: also if you send a subscription request?
[10:32:27] <Maranda> Hmm only a subscription no, but usually I noticed most clients sending a message together with the subscription so in that case it's covered.
[10:32:29] <Ge0rG> Maranda: it's generally a good idea, but I think you are not hitting the right usability trade-off.
[10:32:33] <Maranda> I guess that's a bug.
[10:33:35] <Ge0rG> Maranda: if I were to implement it, I'd use a URL with a token parameter (no need to copy-paste), maybe even skip out the math filter, just "click here to unlock", and maybe do some User-Agent / IP testing
[10:33:41] <Maranda> Ge0rG, my users are satisfied with the "nerd filter", I got some complaints here and there but by most they all satisfied by not getting SPIM.
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[10:34:15] <Ge0rG> and I'd only apply the filter on bad-reputation domains and messages with suspected spam content.
[10:34:39] <Ge0rG> Maranda: because they don't know anything better :P
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[10:36:31] <Maranda> Ge0rG, possibly, but there're no tools, like a centralised bad reputantion domain/ip list mantained by the XSF. So I offer what I can and have the time to mantain the offer of.
[10:36:34] <Ge0rG> I'm automatically blocking almost all incoming spam (plus some legitimate traffic) without legitimate users needing to do anything
[10:36:52] <Ge0rG> Maranda: https://github.com/ge0rg/jabber-spam-fighting-manifesto/blob/blacklist/blacklist.md
[10:37:53] <Maranda> ... ;)
[10:38:02] <Ge0rG> Maranda: ??? ;)
[10:38:04] <Maranda> (empty)
[10:38:07] <Maranda> :P
[10:38:15] <Ge0rG> Maranda: the list? yeah.
[10:38:28] <Ge0rG> Maranda: still polishing the rules.
[10:38:41] <Ge0rG> Maranda: also reporting abuse to server admins is real workâ„¢
[10:39:22] <Ge0rG> Maranda: I'd be glad if you would like to participate in that effort
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[10:50:26] <Maranda> Ge0rG, if it's not too time taking to partecipate, like sending a PR everytime (e.g. like having a proper RESTful API for submission, checking)
[10:52:17] <Ge0rG> Maranda: we've got an internal ticket system to track progress when talking to ISPs
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[10:57:15] <Maranda> Ge0rG, yes but I meant the *how to submit entries* before they're evaluated, *I'd* like to do that automatically after x violations rather than having to do manual aggregation and then sending.
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[10:58:13] <Ge0rG> Maranda: how to submit entries to the blacklist? That needs to be manual.
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[10:59:28] <Maranda> I mean that's how it mostly (without the evaluation part) work with the e-mail blacklists.
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[11:03:05] <Ge0rG> Maranda: so you volunteer to develop the required tooling?
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[11:07:14] <Maranda> Ge0rG, I barely have time and will for Metronome atm, so I guess that gives you a hint :P
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[11:21:12] <Maranda> ‎[11:27:05] ‎Ge0rG‎: Maranda: also if you send a subscription request? --> nm, also if a contact is pending that's covered.
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[12:04:21] <Ge0rG> Maranda: it would be great to have all that written in the docs for that module.
[12:05:33] <Ge0rG> Maranda: and if you insist on copy&pasting tokens, please encode the JID or a hash of it or some other token into the URL and reduce the thing that actually needs to be typed / copy-pasted to six digits numeric
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[12:09:05] <Maranda> Documentation is yet time dependant and also english skills dependant. Two things I'm not very proficent on.
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[12:12:32] <Maranda> Ge0rG: I could though change digest method / reduce entropy fetched to make the token shorter.
[12:13:03] <Ge0rG> generate TOTP tokens!
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[12:58:32] <Maranda> TOTP is a bit too much hassle to do correctly, safely and avoiding collisions for what I'm doing for now
[12:59:06] <Ge0rG> I'm just saying.
[12:59:54] <Maranda> Ge0rG, but I can reduce the token to 12 characters and make it use uppercase letters only without issues (on uniqueness and collisions also)
[13:00:08] *Maranda just tested.
[13:00:10] <Ge0rG> Maranda: you could just append it to the URL.
[13:00:43] <Ge0rG> with only uppercase letters, you probably also get rid of the 1/l/I issue.
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[14:34:41] <Neustradamus> A new server: deshalbfrei.org
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[14:42:30] <Ge0rG> Neustradamus: reported to the owner
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[19:43:27] <Neustradamus> A good news: https://twitter.com/neustradamus/status/1065328474922061825
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[20:26:04] <Maranda> @uptime lightwitch.org
[20:26:04] <Echo1> Maranda: lightwitch.org has been running for 13 days, 21 hours and 26 minutes
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[20:34:46] <Licaon_Kter> Neustradamus: you da bot :))
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[20:43:26] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:44:25] *** SamWhited has left the room
[20:45:51] *** Marzanna shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being a pony more than 5 min)"
[20:50:21] *** info-screen has left the room
[20:52:54] *** css shows as "online"
[20:52:54] *** css shows as "online"
[20:52:54] *** css shows as "online"
[20:52:54] *** css shows as "online"
[20:52:54] *** css shows as "online"
[20:52:59] *** css shows as "online"
[20:52:59] *** css shows as "online"
[20:52:59] *** css shows as "online"
[20:52:59] *** css shows as "online"
[20:55:52] *** Marzanna shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being a pony more than 15 min)"
[20:59:27] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[21:00:25] *** fp-tester shows as "online"
[21:02:53] *** Maranda has left the room
[21:03:24] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:03:49] *** peter shows as "online"
[21:06:05] *** ivucica has joined the room
[21:07:02] *** Marzanna shows as "online"
[21:10:42] *** Maranda has left the room
[21:13:21] <Licaon_Kter> Neustradamus: do the PEP changes mean that Daniel's omemo_all_access is integrated?
[21:13:29] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:13:50] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:15:01] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[21:15:32] <Link Mauve> Licaon_Kter, it was a hack, and is not needed anymore.
[21:16:57] <Licaon_Kter> Link Mauve: great
[21:17:08] *** Marzanna shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being a pony more than 5 min)"
[21:22:47] *** mightyBroccoli has left the room
[21:24:23] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[21:24:28] *** Holger has left the room
[21:24:37] *** Holger shows as "online"
[21:27:07] *** Marzanna shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being a pony more than 15 min)"
[21:29:00] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[21:29:17] *** css has left the room
[21:33:51] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:33:52] *** peter shows as "online"
[21:35:45] *** Martin has left the room
[21:37:27] *** Holger has left the room
[21:37:33] *** Holger shows as "online"
[21:43:56] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:43:57] *** peter shows as "online"
[21:48:41] *** probably has left the room
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[21:49:04] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:49:10] *** ThibG has left the room
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[21:49:18] *** ThibG has joined the room
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[21:50:28] *** css shows as "online"
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[21:55:47] *** probably has left the room
[21:55:49] *** probably has joined the room
[22:01:43] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[22:02:46] *** naw has joined the room
[22:05:44] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[22:06:27] *** probably has left the room
[22:06:28] *** probably has joined the room
[22:08:48] *** holger has left the room
[22:13:55] *** ibikk has joined the room
[22:18:43] *** peter shows as "online"
[22:18:56] *** peter has left the room
[22:19:45] *** naw shows as "away" and his status message is "Mensaje automático de estado (inactivo) (idle)"
[22:27:45] *** naw shows as "xa" and his status message is "Mensaje automático de estado (inactivo) (idle)"
[22:31:59] *** naw shows as "online"
[22:33:08] *** tyler has left the room
[22:38:59] *** tyler has joined the room
[22:40:46] *** ThibG has left the room
[22:48:34] *** tyler has left the room
[22:51:01] *** carlos has joined the room
[22:51:15] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[22:53:35] *** tyler has joined the room
[22:54:21] *** naw shows as "away" and his status message is "Mensaje automático de estado (inactivo) (idle)"
[22:58:02] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:58:03] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:58:18] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:58:21] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:58:39] *** naw shows as "online"
[23:07:14] *** naw has left the room
[23:15:50] *** css has left the room
[23:17:34] *** kmq shows as "online"
[23:22:39] *** blabla has joined the room
[23:23:01] *** fp-tester has left the room
[23:23:05] *** tyler has left the room
[23:26:06] *** fp-tester has joined the room
[23:30:52] *** pod has left the room
[23:35:55] *** blabla has left the room
[23:40:07] *** tyler has joined the room
[23:41:20] *** jjrh has left the room
[23:41:21] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[23:44:14] *** kmq shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:45:20] *** kmq shows as "online"
[23:50:22] *** kmq shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:52:38] *** kmq shows as "online"
[23:53:47] *** Licaon_Kter has left the room
[23:53:55] *** mightyBroccoli has left the room
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[23:58:56] *** Licaon_Kter has joined the room