XMPP Service Operators - 2019-03-29


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  167. tom Is there any way to increase file transfer reliability?
  168. tom file transfers with my friend keep failing
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  170. mightyBroccoli Could you be more specific? Error code or the failure message displayed from the client?
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  172. Licaon_Kter tom: server? Server software? Client?
  173. tom Gajim 0.16.9 sending to Gajim 0.16.6 server is.... hold on
  174. tom whatever 404.city is on and....
  175. Licaon_Kter tom: oh....that Gajim is how many years old?
  176. Licaon_Kter Things have changed...
  177. tom Prosody
  178. tom Licaon_Kter, oh?
  179. tom I don't think there's a release of Gajim past 0.16.x that still supports gtk2
  180. Licaon_Kter Yeah, eg that upload namespace thing
  181. Licaon_Kter tom: eh....
  182. tom If you can tell me what's wrong I could probably figure out how to patch Gajim 0.16 myself
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  185. tom My friend is also stuck on Gajim 0.16.x because of the forced gtk+3 and he's a programmer as well.
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  187. tom Licaon_Kter, what's up?
  188. Licaon_Kter tom: error logs?
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  191. tom uhm.. let me check
  192. tom strange
  193. tom Does Gajim have error logs somewhere? or are you talking about server logs
  194. tom are you still with me Licaon_Kter ?
  195. Licaon_Kter tom: I dunno the answer...hence....
  196. tom ok
  197. tom I'll keep looking into it, so far it just show a X icon next to the failed trasfers. Not very descriptive
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  200. Link Mauve tom, you should update, the 0.16 branch is abandonned, and so is gtk2.
  201. Link Mauve And there are many features which have been added in 1.0 and later, such as more failure-proof file transfer.
  202. Link Mauve Heh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software depends on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^
  203. Link Mauve Heh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software I use depends on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^
  204. Link Mauve Heh, nice, I don’t even have gtk2 installed on this laptop, no software I use depend on it anymore, I didn’t know. ^^
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  209. tom gtk2 isn't abandoned, it still receives patches, if if that were to change I will patch it should a need arise
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  212. tom and gtk3 is not a generic toolkit, it's the gnome graphical toolkit
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  214. tom it's also optimized for tablets, not computers.
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  216. tom and it isn't stable
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  219. tom I'd much rather fork Gajim 0.16 if nobody else is going to
  220. tom backport useful features
  221. tom gtk3 is so unusable to me that the effort required to backport and maintain 0.16.x is worth the effort for me
  222. tom even spending money to pay for development help
  223. Link Mauve tom, gtk3 will not see any newer minor version, only patch releases, that is the Debian definition of “stable”.
  224. Link Mauve It also is definitely not “optimised” more for tablets than for anything else.
  225. Link Mauve And yet also, not targetting GNOME in the slightest, there are just people involved in both projects.
  226. tom I've used the 1.x release
  227. tom of gajim
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  229. tom and it's probably the worst release i've ever used ui wise
  230. tom now if there is another jabber client out there that you'd recommend that doesn't force gtk+3 and doesn't fall for whatever the latest UI fads are and that isn't based on nodejs I would like to know
  231. Link Mauve Please open issues for things which could be improved.
  232. Link Mauve tom, hmm, maybe look for the Qt ones?
  233. Link Mauve Swift for instance, or Kaidan, or JabberCat.
  234. tom Link Mauve, I don't think Gajim wants to improve. I took some of my concerns to their muc and they just insulted me
  235. Link Mauve Or even Converse, it uses node and python2 and C++ to build but then it’s fully client-side JS.
  236. Link Mauve Or even Converse, it uses node and python2 and C++ to build but then it’s fully client-side JS at runtime.
  237. tom I also don't see a valid reason for switching off of gtk2
  238. Link Mauve tom, I’m pretty sure it does.
  239. Link Mauve tom, oh, there is a very valid one: it isn’t supported by anyone.
  240. tom Well I will take your word for and and open a ticket
  241. tom Link Mauve, What do you mean supported?
  242. Link Mauve If your suggestion is just “switch from gtk3 to gtk2”, of course nobody will do that.
  243. Link Mauve But if you have valid UI or UX concerns, that’s relevant.
  244. Link Mauve tom, no one is pouring time to fix or improve gtk2 anymore.
  245. tom what is there to fix?
  246. Link Mauve Really?
  247. Link Mauve Have a look at all of the reasons for gtk3’s existence. :)
  248. Link Mauve The main one for me was Wayland support.
  249. Link Mauve gtk3’s is damn good.
  250. Link Mauve gtk2’s, well, inexistant.
  251. tom the last patch to gtk2 was 14 days ago
  252. tom commit c505d3f what do you mean not supported?
  253. tom also, what reasons for gtk3's existance?
  254. tom wayland isn't even stable yet, and doesn't work on the BSDs
  255. Link Mauve Look at the release notes if you aren’t aware of it.
  256. tom and X11 forwarding over SSH doesn't work on wayland
  257. Link Mauve tom, erm, can you please stop with the false accusations please? Wayland has been stable since 2012 and has worked on any system with UNIX sockets and shared memory.
  258. Link Mauve tom, it sure does, as long as your compositor provides an Xwayland integration (and all do, to my knowledge).
  259. Licaon_Kter This escalated fast....
  260. tom really? I didn't know
  261. tom Does wayland work on OpeBSD?
  262. Link Mauve tom, sure.
  263. Link Mauve I mean, it certainly has unix sockets, and shared memory support, as it exposes a POSIX API.
  264. tom So, as a person who has used X for a decade and has not had a problem with it, why would I want to use Wayland instead? and Why do most operating systems not ship with Wayland, but X instead?
  265. Link Mauve Some compositors may have additional requirements, such as OpenGL support for rendering, or udev for input, but at least when I had to run Weston on FreeBSD for a client that was working.
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  269. Link Mauve tom, personally, it was because I was tired of tearing happening all the time, and because of the complete isolation between processes, as well as the very simple and easy to understand and to extend protocol.
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  271. tom I'm certainly not going to go ahead and install Wayland just to run a graphical toolkit that has not yet even justified it's existance over gtk2 that I don't even like
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  275. tom I've never experience tearing. Are you sure that wasn't just a graphics driver causing tearing?
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  278. Link Mauve For instance I wanted to add quad-buffering support to a 3DS emulator, because that sounded like fun to be able to run its stereoscopic capabilities on a big 3DTV or VR device, and that was pretty much impossible on X11.
  279. Link Mauve tom, it’s a combinaison of many things, Xorg being single-buffered being one.
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  284. tom I am personally running 2 monitors, one of them being a 144Hz and 1080p while the other being 1900x800 at 60hz.
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  291. tom I don't experience any tearing besides what on the 60hz one if I play a videogame on it without vsync, but that's the monitor's fault. it's a cheapo unit and does that across any os
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  294. Link Mauve I’m pretty sure it isn’t due to the monitor, try it with Wayland for instance.
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  298. Link Mauve I also had a lot of misconceptions before getting deep into the graphics stack. ^^
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  302. tom I can see process screen isolation being a useful feature if it doesn't break things like window managers, oneko, and such
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  305. tom but other than that, I don't really see how that only justifies a huge compatibility breaking change like that
  306. Link Mauve Of course it prevents your window manager from running, and oneko would have to be a priviledged client or part of the compositor.
  307. tom that doens't sound very good
  308. Link Mauve But it’s becoming very simple to build a full compositor by writing only code that you would write for window management before, with libraries like wlroots.
  309. Link Mauve So it’s only a matter that people were targetting Xlib only, and now have to target either Xlib or wlroots or both.
  310. tom so other than wayland compatibility, (which I don't see has justified or being worth the hassle) why else would someone want to switch to gtk3?
  311. Link Mauve Depending on whether they want full control over the display mechanisms, or if they want to delegate that to Xorg.
  312. Link Mauve In the latter case, they can’t support Wayland.
  313. Link Mauve tom, have you just made the effort of opening the release notes or design plan of GTK+ 3.0?
  314. Link Mauve If not, then there is no point to this discussion.
  315. tom https://lwn.net/Articles/300303/
  316. tom qrong link
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  323. tom I can only find the release notes for gnome3
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  330. tom would you provide a link?
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  339. Link Mauve tom, second result on ddg: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-announce-list/2011-February/msg00022.html
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  341. tom basing the theming api on CSS is a horrible idea
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  343. Ge0rG let's build on the shoulders of giants?
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  345. Link Mauve Note that that’s only the 3.0 release, not everything was done by then so the following releases added a lot of missing pieces, while always keeping it ABI compatible.
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  349. tom dbus integration is also a horrible idea. dbus sucks
  350. Link Mauve tom, I don’t see what’s wrong with it, most designers these days are used to CSS for apparence.
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  352. tom just because something is popular doesn't make it good
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  358. tom also, what was wrong with the privious theming api?
  359. tom *previous
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  363. Link Mauve Most likely, that it wasn’t popular enough, so random passerbys had to learn an entirely new language to theme their application or DE.
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  365. Link Mauve But that’s a thing better asked to GTK+ people from 2008.
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  368. Link Mauve I can only speculate on their intentions.
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  373. tom there were and are plenty of great gtk2 themes already out there
  374. Link Mauve Although this change seems to have panned well.
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  377. tom also, learning how to use your tools is just a fact of life
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  381. tom regarding the last relase note, added an application chooser, I have a perfectly fine gtk2 based application chooser that didn't require a whole major release number to implement
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  383. Link Mauve tom, so what good does it give to have to learn two different languages, to make web applications and GTK+ applications, while it could be a single one?
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  386. tom https://0x0.st/zPsZ.png
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  389. tom because there is a difference between web applications and programs
  390. tom that line should not be blurred
  391. Link Mauve Eww, Flash.
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  394. Link Mauve That’s a thing I haven’t used in a decade.
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  397. Link Mauve tom, using CSS for theming is hardly “blurring” anything.
  398. Link Mauve And why should it not, btw?
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  401. Link Mauve Some other toolkits like Qt went much further with the integration of web technologies, integrating a JavaScript engine, CSS, QtQuick, and even Chromium for their web needs.
  402. tom when you attempt to blur those lines to bloat the web and make turn a web browser, not into a markup renderer, but a virtual machine
  403. tom and Javascript is a terrible terrible language. It always was even from the beginning
  404. tom You can polish poop but at the end up the day it's still a peice of shit
  405. tom the compatibility breaking change of using css for theming does not justify itself in a cost to gain ratio. the gtk2 theming api is perfectly expressive enough for what it does and simple enough too
  406. tom I've made and modified my own gtk2 themes, i'm not talking out of my ass here
  407. tom >tom‎: when you attempt to blur those lines to bloat the web and make turn a web browser, not into a markup renderer, but a virtual machine sorry, something happened here. I meant to say: when you attempt to blue the line of web browser and programs, you end of turning a markup renderer into a bloated, virtual machine
  408. tom *blur
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  410. tom does that answer your question?
  411. tom just to give you an example of the bloat of the fallacies that have brought us "web 2.0" firefox 52 (even before you had to compile rust to compile firefox) took and still takes longer than GCC to compile
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  414. tom GCC used to be the most bloated and longest to compile thing of the entire operating system
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  417. tom >* More flexible geometry management, with support for height-for-width, for both widgets and cell renderers. Why did a compatibility breaking change be needed to implement this?
  418. tom * Modern input device handling. The input device handling in GDK has long been a sadly neglected area. This has changed; with 3.0, GTK+ steps into the modern world of XI2 with full support for multiple pointers, keyboards and other gizmos. Sounds like a GDK problem not a GTK problem. Just patch gdk
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  420. Link Mauve Sorry I was doing something else.
  421. tom no problem
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  423. Link Mauve But a compatibility break eleven years ago, with a lot of other things required to change, has long since given benefits.
  424. Link Mauve The gtk2 theming API is just an artifact from the past nowadays.
  425. tom WHAT BENEFITS?
  426. Link Mauve tom, but I wasn’t arguing for bloating the web, it already does that on its own perfectly well, I was talking about using the useful parts of it, familiar to many, to make your own software more familiar.
  427. Link Mauve tom, see, I’m a random who only knows HTML and some CSS, I want to change some visual things in my IM client.
  428. Link Mauve Now, with gtk3 I can just apply my preexisting knowledge.
  429. tom yes, and I'm saying maybe so (i doubt it though) but that doesn't justify breaking everything to change it
  430. Link Mauve With gtk2, I’d simply be demoralised away by having to learn yet another language.
  431. tom well that's your own fault
  432. Link Mauve tom, the break happened for many other reasons, your gtk2 themes wouldn’t have been compatible with gtk3 even if they kept the language.
  433. Link Mauve tom, sure, you can blame the user.
  434. Link Mauve You can also accept criticism and aim for a more user-friendly experience.
  435. tom being demoralized from having to learn new stuff is
  436. Link Mauve I’ve met a lot of people identifying as web developers, who outright reject the idea to learn anything else.
  437. Link Mauve And they can live perfectly well.
  438. Link Mauve Same for Java developers, same for C developers, same for Python developers.
  439. tom that's why they are web developers
  440. tom and you can stay in in a bubble
  441. Link Mauve Yes, that’s in their self-description. What does it bring to cut yourself from these people in order to undo an eleven years old language change?
  442. Link Mauve With the hingsight, it’s only brought nice things.
  443. tom what? I don't understand your metaphors
  444. Link Mauve tom, there is no metaphor here.
  445. tom no one is self mutilating
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  448. tom and years of constant breakage and instability is not a nice thing
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  451. tom also completely abandoning decades of UI research for hamburger buttons is not a nice thing
  452. pep. Heh, still arguing about using gtk2? :p
  453. Ge0rG Mhm... Hamburgers!
  454. tom a button for buttons
  455. Link Mauve tom, “cut yourself out” means making a clear separation between you and a given set of people in English.
  456. Link Mauve tom, that’s an application developer decision, whether they put menus or other things.
  457. Link Mauve Nothing the toolkit can do for you.
  458. Link Mauve Ge0rG, oh, good idea.
  459. Link Mauve I should have breakfast, and start packing, I leave in less than one hour.
  460. Link Mauve And get out of bed too.
  461. tom because if you want to enter a new field, you should learn the tools of the trade. NOt attempt to adapt tools of a different trade before learning the traditional way of doing things.
  462. tom at least learn from the more experienced before attempting to forge your own way
  463. tom I don't go get a job as a car mechanic and refuse to learn a wrench and attempt to use a keyboard to change my oil
  464. Link Mauve tom, but as a random user, do you want to enter a new field, or simply customise your chat client?
  465. Link Mauve Using a chat client should never have the same requirements as getting a job as a car mechanic.
  466. tom I want a XMPP client for my computers that doesn't have a phone client. Also, If I'm going to be upgrading I want the upgrade to at least be equivalent or slightly better than what I had before
  467. tom *phone interface
  468. Link Mauve Same for me, except I don’t care where the inspiration comes for the interface.
  469. tom I want a computer interface on my computer. not a tablet interface on my computer
  470. Link Mauve I mean, I use a client inspired by terminal IRC clients, of course I don’t. :D
  471. tom I also refuse to lose customizability I had before
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  474. tom for example, I don't want material design, animations on checkboxes, and rounded bezels
  475. tom Gajim's 0.16.9 interface is probably the best IM interface I've ever used. Like ever
  476. tom then 1.x just completely throws it all out the window
  477. tom why?
  478. tom because windows are "old"
  479. tom not because what they are using now is better, but because popups and windows are "old"
  480. tom just because something is new doesn't make it better. and just because something is old doesn't make it worse
  481. Ge0rG focus-stealing popups always have been bad
  482. tom If nobody else is going to fix file transfer in Gajim 0.16.x I'll do it myself
  483. tom I would however appreciate some help in figuring out why exactly the issues are occuring in the fist place
  484. Link Mauve “10:54:10 tom> for example, I don't want material design, animations on checkboxes, and rounded bezels”, great, all of those are customisable using *wait for it* CSS!
  485. Link Mauve tom, you can read the history between your latest commit and master.
  486. Link Mauve But be aware that it’s very long.
  487. Link Mauve And I wouldn’t advise doing that.
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  490. tom Why should I when gtk2 works absolutely fine?
  491. tom also the file picker in gtk2
  492. tom Nothing, not even the qt one comes close to it
  493. tom Can you show me a gtk3 theme that looks like gtk2?
  494. Link Mauve Raleigh?
  495. tom hmm. ok. I could use that as a middle ground in the meantime to fix the glaring ui design failures, but still, as with all my previous posts, the change to gtk3 is not justified in a cost to gain ratio
  496. Link Mauve With most software having moved, maintaining them all in an old version will only accumulate work.
  497. Link Mauve So, good luck in your impossible quest I guess.
  498. Link Mauve At some point maybe you’ll realise the cost to gain ratio is really not to your benefit.
  499. Link Mauve In the meantime, I’m going on weekend, see y’all next week! \o_
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  523. tom Link Mauve, fuck you
  524. pep. :D
  525. tom I'm sick and tired of your passive agressiveness
  526. pep. I totally agree with Link Mauve (/me throws oil on the fire)
  527. tom why?
  528. pep. Maybe you should start a gtk2 support group for people traumatized with gtk3
  529. tom maybe you should stop being ass asshole
  530. pep. If you manage to gather enough people to maintain gtk2 it might become worth your time
  531. tom gtk2 is maintained, what are you talking about?
  532. tom the last patch was only 14 days ago
  533. tom are you actually asking or just trying to piss me off
  534. tom What really needs to happen is an anti-redhat group
  535. tom Every single thing to come out of redhat minus qemu patches and md has been a downgrade in the oss ecosystem
  536. tom dbus
  537. tom GNOME3
  538. tom consolekit
  539. tom PulseAudio
  540. tom FreeDesktop
  541. tom systemd
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  544. muppeth lol
  545. muppeth ansible
  546. tom that too
  547. muppeth hahahaha because manually configuring every single server is so much better
  548. tom Redhat's a special fucking snowflake and can't using a staging tarball like every other unix os
  549. muppeth is evil gnome user that actually likes the new changes so i stay away from this one
  550. tom noting wrong with gnome2
  551. tom I actually used to use it
  552. muppeth and i'm comming form 10+ yeasrs of using only tiling managers
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  555. muppeth tom i mean gnome3
  556. tom ok
  557. tom is there anyone here that agrees with me?
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  559. muppeth i moved to gnome because they droppped what they were doing and decided to do something new (aka gtk/gnome3)
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  561. tom anyone at all?
  562. tom seriously, what the hell
  563. tom what the hell happened to the industry in the last 7 yeays]
  564. muppeth tom, i guess it moved on
  565. muppeth I dont see what your problem here is tbh
  566. tom why?
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  568. muppeth because as everything things move on
  569. tom Why is bloat and spyware the norm now?
  570. muppeth because people are borred of doing the same thing over and over again
  571. muppeth i dont know
  572. tom that's too general
  573. muppeth spyware?
  574. tom your just fucking with me
  575. muppeth where is the spyware in anything you mentioned?
  576. tom I'm trying to have a serious conversation about the stuff coming out of redhat and web not being good and all I get is assholes trying to derail
  577. tom like yourself
  578. tom I don't know why I spend the effort explaing this shit
  579. muppeth tom, imo all you do is shout some random shit, fueled by your frustration
  580. tom maybe I think your capable of reason
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  582. tom obviously not the case
  583. muppeth itsa very simple. you dont like gtk3, as you mentioned gtk2 is still supported. whats your problem?
  584. muppeth someone higher said he likes web stuff. you dont. whats the issue. develop/use non-web stuff. period
  585. muppeth I dont like propretary software nor apple/google/windows etc. I dont use it
  586. muppeth how's that for a reason
  587. tom the problem is I asked a simple question, what changed that made file transfers more reliable, what spec do i need to implement, and I'm just met wet "just upgrade to gajim 1.x, oh you don't like gtk3? you must be some of of fuckhead then i'm right your wrong and stupid
  588. tom good luck with your impossible quest
  589. tom I don't need you to fucking tell me to switch to fuckin wayland
  590. muppeth tom, thats why i said i dont know what the initial question was.
  591. muppeth tom, noone tells you to do anything afais
  592. tom oh, were you not here for that conversation?
  593. tom I'm sorry then, that wasn't for you
  594. pep. tom: the specific issue with gajim is that the older versions don't support a ton of feature that are rather necessary nowadays. You might not like gtk3, but then you're cutting yourself from these other features and lose your rights to complain about them not existing (just like using pidgin nowadays is shooting yourself in the foot). You could make a gtk2 version of the newest branch of gajim maybe, or port these missing features in the older branch
  595. tom > a ton of feature WHAT FEAUTURES?
  596. Holger > I asked a simple question, what changed that made file transfers more reliable, what spec do i need to implement https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html
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  599. Holger tom: https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim-plugins/wikis/httpuploadplugin
  600. tom is that it?
  601. Holger That's my answer to your question about which spec offers more reliable file transfer, yes.
  602. tom so there's no way to fix peer to peer transfer on XMPP, it's just been replaced with http uploads?
  603. Holger I *think* that plugin should even work with 0.16 so maybe there's actually nothing to do besides installing it?
  604. Holger tom: Well p2p is hard(er) to make reliable.
  605. tom can it be?
  606. tom let me rephrase
  607. Holger Most clients basically replace it with upload yes. Not just because reliability but also to make it work with offline peers, multi-device setups, and group chat.
  608. tom if implementing perfectly by the spec, can p2p transfer be made to be reliable?
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  611. Holger I agree it's not exactly elegant but the fact that it just works is kinda nice.
  612. tom sure
  613. Holger tom: The problem is that there's multiple specs and incompatible revisions of those in the wild. Plus the limitations I mentioned above.
  614. Holger tom: Apart from that I think it can be made reliable, yes.
  615. tom hmm.https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html says it's still only draft
  616. Holger Yeah if you take the XEP status seriously you can basically forget about XMPP.
  617. Holger For p2p you'd do XEP-0234 these days which is 'Deferred'.
  618. tom hmm. Looks like i'm going to have to switch XMPP providers to get that to work
  619. tom not a huge deal, I've been looking to host my own for a while now
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  622. Ge0rG Haha, I'm not the only one grumpy about the Gnome CADT model and all the new shit that's working differently from the old shit that I know to operate.
  623. Ge0rG BTW, hosting your own XMPP server is the first thing to be actually on-topic in this room
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  632. Holger I don't quite get why everyone is mourning for the Gnome2 UI. It's just Windows 95 and there's still plenty (most?) DEs doing just that.
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  635. Ge0rG I think the problem is Gnome 3 with its opaque buttons where you have no way to find out what they do short of clicking and looking
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  638. Ge0rG patched away the full-screen shit with some LD_PRELOAD black magic, but it's still fugly
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  641. Holger Hmmm. Dunno I chose Gnome 3 as the first DE for my little son and he seems to cope just fine.
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  644. Holger Not sure what buttons you mean exactly. There aren't many in the first place :-)
  645. Holger (And on-topic is overrated.)
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  656. Holger Whatever, I don't care at all what others use. I'm just happy the GNOME people tried something else because I think there's still plenty old-school DEs if you prefer those.
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  669. Ge0rG is running fluxbox which is based on blackbox which is ancient.
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  674. Holger Ah I used that myself one or two decades ago :-)
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  691. muppeth Holger, agree. I like gnome because its different. I used pretty much everything out there from fluxbox, xfce, kde, through awesomeWM and i3. I just deployed Gnome3 desktops at work and i was amazed by the reaction from normal non-tech folk that find it super comfortable to use. some even say its better then MacOS and i start recieving windows laptops form them (and now some of their friends that saw it) asking if I would "load" that linux thing on their personal computers.
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  694. muppeth so i guess gnome is doing something right. its not for everyone but so isnt Mate or tilling window manager
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  701. tom thank you for your help Holger
  702. tom muppeth, I think that's the problem. GNOME3 and gtk3 alienate 'tech folk' in favor of computer illiterates when their previous userbase is power users
  703. muppeth tom, totally disagree. I consider mysefl power user. I used tilling window manager exclusively for over 10 years. I moved to gnome now, being still power user
  704. muppeth i do undertsand people want to use tilling managers still
  705. tom heh
  706. Ge0rG everything is one huge tile in gnome3! :D
  707. muppeth i dont uderstand how using a DE make me less of a power user?! I use terminal for work. tbh most of the time i dont even need XServer to do my work
  708. tom I find myself doing to opposite, slowly moving more and more into tiling managers because i'm being alienated by gnome
  709. tom not because I like tiling
  710. tom because I can't find another option
  711. tom I"ve moved from gnome2 to matte, then they went gtk3
  712. tom then to xfce
  713. tom then they went gtk3
  714. muppeth maybe because gtk3 is better
  715. tom then to i3wm because I'm not sure whereless to go
  716. Holger tom: I understand how the GNOME transition was painful and alienated parts of the existing user base, but I totally appreciate *some* DE project targetting "computer illiterates" so I have something good to offer them.
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  718. tom there was already a project that targeted computer illiterates, and I don't see why gnome had to alienate it's own users to switch target userbases
  719. Holger But yes if it's about avoiding GTK+ 3 I see your problem. Qt not an option?
  720. tom https://www.magicdesktop.com/en-US
  721. pep. People are almost never happy with change anyway, what's good for one is going to annoy the other. I'm fine if I'm not GNOME's target user anymore (or never was), I just don't use it
  722. muppeth but what is your problem really. gnome poeple wanted to do something and they did. according to your logic, software cannot change because there is this tom guy and he wont like it.
  723. Holger tom: Well I think it's hard to build a single piece of software that makes both power users and illiterates happy.
  724. tom qt is not as bad as gtk3, but it's still a downgrade. It also has no support for C
  725. tom also the file picker
  726. muppeth Holger, why? gnome3 or kde does just that. it makes non-tech and tech people happy.
  727. tom doesn't worker nearly as well as the one in gtk2 does
  728. Ge0rG Whoever is using C as a UI language, deserves all the resulting pain
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  730. tom muppeth, no, kde is hard to justify in that case.
  731. muppeth just some poeple dont like it for whatever reason, but I'm pretty sure there is a DE that fits them too and if it doesmt, well time to write your own tom
  732. tom KDE pissed people off soo bad and much that they went and created the Trinity Desktop Envrioment
  733. tom in the kde3 -> kde4 transition
  734. muppeth tom which people?! all 5 of them?>
  735. Ge0rG how many greybeard linux nerds do you need to write a Desktop Environment?
  736. tom muppeth, cut the smartass unhelpful remarks
  737. tom I'm trying to have a conversation
  738. muppeth tom, my remarks are no different then your whining. you blame decissions made by gnome team from your perspective.
  739. muppeth whats the point of this 'conversation'?
  740. muppeth whine that everyone
  741. tom >‎[05:10:18 AM] ‎muppeth‎: tom which people?! all 5 of them?> >‎[05:06:01 AM] ‎muppeth‎: maybe because gtk3 is better
  742. muppeth whine that everyones ideas suxx because its not what you want?
  743. tom >[05:11:35 AM] ‎muppeth‎: whine that everyones ideas suxx because its not what you want?
  744. muppeth tom, as you pointed out everyone moves to gtk3. it means it must be good right?
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  747. tom your attempting to derail to conversation
  748. Ge0rG tom: you are derailing the conversation for hours now.
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  751. Ge0rG This is the XMPP Operators Room. It is about XMPP Operators.
  752. Holger muppeth: In the context of window managers I'd call "power users" those who want a high amount of configurability/flexibility/extensibility and/or powerful features that aren't necessarily intuitive (i.e. tiling WMs or so).
  753. tom that doesn't justify muppeth's passive aggressive snipes
  754. Holger muppeth: In general I think offering more powerful UI often conflicts with intuitiveness because it requires a steeper learning curve.
  755. Ge0rG tom: you lost the remains of your credibility when you told Link Mauve to f*** themselves.
  756. tom muppeth, your rude
  757. muppeth Holger, yes. exactly. check dconf (very unintuitive, anti-userfirendly) tool to change every single bit of your gnome experience 😛 very power user frioendly 🙂
  758. Holger muppeth: Hence I think it's often hard to make both target audiences happy in one go.
  759. muppeth tom, I'm rude? I got active in here because i saw your insults towards others here.
  760. Holger muppeth: Nah dconf doesn't allow me to turn GNOME 3 into i3.
  761. muppeth Holger, i think its a good balance. non-power users have very little options to get overwhelmed or screw up with, while other can change every single piece. not to mention you can hook it all up to ansible and manage/configure every aspect on every desktop you administer.
  762. muppeth Holger, but also i3 doesnt allow you to become gnome. there are restrictions, although the tiling functionalities in gnome are getting interesting lately, so soon you will actually be able tyo make gnome into i3 while not the other way around 😛
  763. muppeth anyway as i said there are no bad DE/WM just different expectations of poeple, and its nice that you acctually have choice.
  764. Ge0rG Can we please get Poettering into here to discuss the merits of gnome3?
  765. tom If you ask me all this shit is just the Extend in Embrace Extend Exterminate
  766. tom and about non-power users have very little options
  767. tom non-power users have Windows and Mac OSX
  768. tom and they have https://www.magicdesktop.com/en-US
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  775. tom Why is the so much of a concern to write software for computer illiterates anyways?
  776. Ge0rG tom: because most users are computer illiterates
  777. tom Why are a lot of developers writing software for computer illiterates instead of themselves out of being paid to do it?
  778. Ge0rG tom: the right question would be: why are so many developers writing software for computer illiterates, despite lacking the required skills?
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  780. tom no, I'm asking why they would want to be going through all the effort of writing software for someone else with different interests and abilities while not even being paid to do it
  781. Licaon_Kter tom: because devs won't have work to do....?
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  783. tom if that's the case why don't they spend their free time writing software for themselves or their own interests?
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  785. Holger > if that's the case why don't they spend their free time writing software for themselves or their own interests? My impression is that's still the case for most spare-time devs.
  786. Ge0rG I'm a spare-time dev writing software for other people.
  787. Holger You're different!
  788. Holger Another impression is that there fraction of few software produced in spare time is much smaller than back in the days.
  789. Ge0rG Damn.
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  792. Holger Another impression is that there fraction of free software produced in spare time is much smaller than back in the days.
  793. Holger So it's more driven by profitability these days.
  794. tom hm
  795. Ge0rG Not all of my software is profitable.
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  797. Holger You're different!
  798. tom Ge0rG is?
  799. tom why?
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  803. Ge0rG tom: I am why what?
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  805. tom > ‎Holger‎: You're different!
  806. Ge0rG tom: apparently because I'm writing software for normal people, and because not all of my software is profitable
  807. tom but that's what Holger was saying your different from yes?
  808. tom Holger, what you care to clarify?
  809. Holger Ge0rG is working on an XMPP client that targets normal end-users in his spare time. And my impression is that this is a somewhat uncommon case.
  810. Holger Or maybe somewhat specific to the XMPP/chat field. Where you have an interested to chat with others, possibly with illiterates. Which requires software that's usable by them.
  811. Ge0rG chat with illiterates! \o/
  812. Holger :-)
  813. tom by normal you mean computer illiterate right?
  814. Holger Yes.
  815. tom k
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  817. tom If I might make a reccomendation
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  819. tom if you could make a stripped down xmpp client that only works in google chrome
  820. tom as a 'web app'
  821. Ge0rG it's called converse.js :P
  822. muppeth tom, I dont understand your argument. I'm not computer illiterate and i do like for example gnome. I have a feeling for you software for non-illetirates must look like its still 90s or something.
  823. tom most computer illiterates don't know how to use software and think that installing programs gives them viruses
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  826. tom they do everything from a google chrome. just look at email
  827. muppeth tom, not true. I run a platform that provides services to people and you would be suprised how many 'illiterate' people actually use it while you would think its only for the elitist power users.
  828. muppeth world isnt 0 or 1
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  831. muppeth i know few 'illiterate' people what use old xfce. not because they are power users that dont like change, but because they are used to their old wondows95 UI
  832. tom if your looking for adoption, that might be the way to go
  833. muppeth your preference for software does not make you better then others.
  834. muppeth or software better then the other
  835. vanitasvitae In my opinion computer illiterates should simply stay away from computers.
  836. tom I fully agree with vanitasvitae on this one, but unfortunately that's not going to happen
  837. vanitasvitae You should only be able to use spftware, if you fully understand how it works.
  838. tom well maybe, if you can isolate computer illiterates to smartphones that might work
  839. vanitasvitae Nonono
  840. vanitasvitae Smartphones are computers as well
  841. vanitasvitae Even lightswitches are, depending on the scientific model you use.
  842. Ge0rG > You should only be able to use spftware, if you fully understand how it works. Nobody does that. Please turn off your computers immediately and become a potato farmer.
  843. Licaon_Kter vanitasvitae: turing complete lightswitches?
  844. Licaon_Kter Ge0rG: potatos can eletricity
  845. Licaon_Kter Ge0rG: potatos can electricity
  846. tom about the chrome-only webapp thing, that's actually a fairly popular thing. Thats the enture premis of ChromeOS
  847. tom You don't have a computer, you just have a netbook that only runs a web browser
  848. Ge0rG tom: https://inverse.chat
  849. vanitasvitae Ge0rG: lets collapse society!
  850. tom yeah, that doesn't even do anything but render a solid blue page in my browser ,even with javascript and cookies enabled
  851. Ge0rG vanitasvitae: it was your premise. I'm perfectly fine using tech I don't understand
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  853. muppeth vanitasvitae, still it doesnt mean my workspace cannot look nice and needs to look like shit crafted in mid 90s. i still dont see how is gnome / gtk3 made for illiterates and hated universally by everyone that knows a bit of how stuff works.
  854. vanitasvitae "Mom, you're not a full stack developer? No Candy Crush for you!" Simple as that!
  855. muppeth hahahaha
  856. vanitasvitae I hope by now its obvious that my statement was not meant serious :D
  857. muppeth its more of a response to tom then to you vanitasvitae i think
  858. muppeth though candy crash should be made illegal
  859. vanitasvitae I'm with you on that point ;)
  860. tom Is there any reason the Prosody website recommends installing Prosody from Ports instead of Packages for OpenBSD?
  861. MattJ Probably because someone familiar with OpenBSD told us to put that there
  862. tom I'll take that advice then
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  876. tom Is there any reason to put the muc on a seperate subdomain?
  877. tom or can you put the muc on the same domain as the main server, for example xmpp.domain.tld instead of xmpp.domain.tld and muc.domain.tld
  878. tom or conference.domain.tld
  879. Ge0rG tom: some clients will expect that, or confuse things when MUCs are not separate
  880. Ge0rG tom: btw you shouldn't have "xmpp" or "jabber" in your xmpp domain, use SRV records for your main domain instead
  881. tom sorry?
  882. tom thanks
  883. Ge0rG tom: when a client receives a carbon copy of a MUC-PM message it needs to check whether it's a MUC or not, and a set of clients will revert to checking that on the domain
  884. Ge0rG I'm sure now that I've said "carbon copy of a MUC-PM message" you understand the problem.
  885. tom so it's better to put in on it's own subdomain for buggy clients?
  886. Ge0rG it's better to put them on their own domain because of an oversight in the protocol.
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  889. lag Ge0rG: really? This is how I've been using, xmpp.example.tld with A record and an SRV record to xmpp.example.tld. What kind of problems can arise?
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  891. Ge0rG lag: it's not a problem, it's just a remnant of the old times when you didn't have SRV records to allow using your normal email address as a JID as well
  892. tom I wish it was possible to use nextcloud FIDs be the same as emails too
  893. tom (federated id)
  894. Ge0rG you can have that with xmpp for 20 years now.
  895. tom nextcloud is fairly new
  896. Ge0rG yes, and they went to reinveng messaging.
  897. Ge0rG because there isn't enough messaging already with xmpp and matrix.
  898. tom they did?
  899. Ge0rG as far as I understood, yes
  900. Ge0rG and then they realized people want federation, and were like: ugh what? how? what now?
  901. tom Double check that, Nextcloud is more of a file/calender collaboration suite
  902. Ge0rG IIRC it's called "nextcloud talk"
  903. tom They have a video chat, but I think that's only for people who you need to talk to but like only have skype or something
  904. tom I remember there being a plugin somewhere for xmpp integration, but really nextcloud is more of a file and calender sync service
  905. Ge0rG I can only keep up with so many messaging silos.
  906. Ge0rG ask me about XMPP.
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  908. tom ok
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  910. tom your have any experience with mod_onions and mod_darknet ?
  911. Ge0rG no. I think that if you are into zero-metadata comms, you should use a protocol designed for that, like briar
  912. tom no, it's more about stopping illegal dragnet mass survailance
  913. tom transparent darknet integration is nice
  914. Ge0rG Germany is forbidding the darknet now.
  915. tom really?
  916. tom I thought germany was a democracy?
  917. tom I wonder how they plan to enforce that
  918. Ge0rG I don't know yet.
  919. Licaon_Kter tom: swat teams as usual? As CCC
  920. debacle has left
  921. tom seems super sketch, banning network anonymity
  922. Ge0rG https://darknetlive.com/post/germany-s-proposed-law-to-ban-tor-nodes-in-english/
  923. tom oh, so it's not law just a proposal
  924. Ge0rG it was accepted yesterday
  925. Ge0rG or at least passed one of the parliamentary chambers.
  926. Ge0rG But the politicians are sufficiently clueless to let it through, especially with the right wing being rather strong
  927. pep. Ge0rG: I saw that not so long ago :(
  928. tom communist china bans tor, but there's still tens of thousands of users
  929. pep. I think it's time to make more tor nodes
  930. tom you beat me to it
  931. tom There's no better time to setup tor than when governments start trying to ban it
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  1087. 404.city tom The reason for transfer errors in large file sizes, no one thought a few years ago that large files would be sent via http upload
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  1281. tom thank you 404.city
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  1317. tom Link Mauve, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON0A1dsQOV0
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  1325. tom maybe it's time I take another look into qt
  1326. tom Does Psi support XMPP well?
  1327. SouL tom: depends on your definition, it does in my opinion
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  1330. tom sure, I mean does it implement most of the important XEPs properly
  1331. tom the comparison would be pidgin, which doesn't do that
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