XSF logo XMPP Service Operators - 2019-09-11


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  23. tom matrix is just a bunch of marketing
  24. tom pretty much every reason they gave for why don't they just use XMPP has been nullified with recent xeps
  25. tom rather than fix painpoints and things we already have and sharpen our tools they reinvent everything from scratch and fix the same problems XMPP had to fix years ago.
  26. tom https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
  27. jrmu tom_: hm I got the same feeling too
  28. jrmu personally I prefer IRC over XMPP, I feel like IRC can do what XMPP does even simpler, but I think
  29. jrmu at least XMPP has been proven to work. Matrix to me seems like it's just a disaster waiting to happen
  30. jrmu The funny thing is matrix's main feature -- video chats -- is actually done using jitsi meet, IIRC, which I thought was using XMPP
  31. jrmu Otherwise I don't see any new compelling feature that matrix offers
  32. jrmu So I'm not delusional, matrix is just the latest hype/fad that will die a nasty death soon
  33. jrmu well, it'll probably survive, but will suffer some major setbacks in the next few years
  34. tom It's not a continuous improvement type thing or permaculture no
  35. jrmu ?
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  38. mike if it mattered how good the protocols were, I wouldn't have lost 99% of my userbase to discord. UX is the only thing most people care about. if matrix looks nice, it'll be around forever.
  39. jrmu the xmpp clients have decent UI. But matrix is going to struggle with scalability, spam, and security because of bad design I think
  40. jrmu I'd also point out that matrix is fundamentally broken when it comes to the command line last I used it in 2018, and that matters for a lot of programmers
  41. jrmu There was only weechat-matrix at that time, and it didn't work well
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  43. mike which xmpp clients have decent ui? it's a huge gap. Conversations is the only one I'd recommend to a non techy user right now. Need at least one client that's simple and usable and cross platform tbqh.
  44. jrmu Conversations and Monal/ChatSecure are decent
  45. jrmu Not great but decent
  46. jrmu I personally think Monal's UI is better than ChatSecure for iOS
  47. jrmu as for linux/windows, gajim was decent
  48. jrmu I agree that the clients could use some more polish
  49. mike gajim is a great diagnostic tool for me, it's technically great and very complete, but the UI is awful and inconsistent.
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  51. mike dino is coming along nicely, hope it builds on windows one day.
  52. jrmu Personally I'm betting the farm on IRC
  53. jrmu I think IRC has a great protocol, just hideous UX, I just need to fix the UX
  54. mike still need a client, that's where the gap is.
  55. jrmu Hm, for me the existing XMPP clients are decent enough, I just need to submit some minor patches
  56. jrmu if I had to write a client from scratch, I'd prefer to focus on IRC though
  57. jrmu Right now Monal has issues with MUC support
  58. jrmu I hadn't heard of Dino before, what platforms are supported?
  59. mike Monal's muc support has been a bit lacking since day one but there's not much else you can use on iOS
  60. mike dino is only unix-ish stuff right now.
  61. mike https://dino.im/ I'm using it right at this moment
  62. jrmu Ah
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  67. tom >‎mike‎: if it mattered how good the protocols were, I wouldn't have lost 99% of my userbase to discord. UX is the only thing most people care about. if matrix looks nice, it'll be around forever. that's what dino is for. The fad users who don't think about long term effects of their decisions. slap whatever questionable UI design choices into dino. that isolated that userbase from the protocols. The protocol does matter and in fact it matters the most because It's the foundation of all our infrastructure. even if you've got the most solid frontend possible it will fall over on a bad foundation. Also, not everyone is part of the dino userbase. Some people need professional communication tools and protocols, and if the protocol can't support that than were going to continue to have segreated networks
  68. tom the situation for email was similar in the 90s
  69. tom you had the AOL messenger built for kids and computer illiterates that was built upon email, but was siloed as in federation with other email servers turned off
  70. tom eventially the competition of various other small ISPs and orgranizations and the need for interoperable digital communication pervailed
  71. tom and AOL was forced to end up turning on federation
  72. jrmu I think the bad protocol design will result in some serious scalability and security issues down the line
  73. tom If you want to see the kind of immediate returns on userbase as discord does, all you have to do is spend the equiv amount of money bribing popular youtubers to shill XMPP. Just as the advertisement method was for Discord
  74. jrmu They won't feel it yet but they will have a very hard time crossing the threshold of getting mainstream
  75. tom but keep in mind the kind of userbase that will attract. you could bring about another eternal september
  76. tom My friends and colleages still use mumble despite the discord advertising. the majority of discord's userbase is gullible children. the rest is network effect
  77. jrmu Well that network effect is very important
  78. jrmu That's why I think it's still very important that the XMPP community make it a high priority to bridge seamlessly with the IRC community
  79. tom well then bribe some youtubers
  80. jrmu No, I think the focus is making sure XMPP has great bridges to IRC
  81. jrmu I don't have that kind of money =)
  82. tom neither does hammer & chisel (discord) they just loan it from venture firms and sell userdata to pay it back
  83. mike the network effect is absolutely everything and discord plays that game brilliantly. they're facebook jr.
  84. jrmu Yeah they have some very bad business practices
  85. jrmu But yes we can't ignore the network effect. We have to make sure that all the open protocols remain compatible
  86. tom well see what happens to them in the near feature. either they get bought out or go bankrupt
  87. jrmu remain connected*
  88. tom there might also be some new privacy laws coming soon which would throw a wrench in the selling of userdata bussiness model
  89. jrmu IMO one area we need to focus on is helping make these open protocols more profitable
  90. jrmu How can we let IRC/XMPP/Matrix operators profit without data mining?
  91. jrmu Otherwise without funding, our protocols will always remain niche
  92. tom there are more bussiness models than selling your user's data jrmu. communications is like a utility jrmu. Everyone needs it but not everyone has the expertise, time, or interest to provide it
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  94. mike you only need massive funding if you're not decentralised. lots of small services, properly federated, can run on smaller models funded by the communities they serve.
  95. tom I still get paid to build and maintain email servers
  96. tom and there are lots of companies that provide email services
  97. mike "enable IM services for domain" should be a checkbox in a hosting plan.
  98. tom like this https://hosted.im/ and this https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/solutions/hosted-collaboration-solution/index.html
  99. tom oh this https://nextcloud.com/
  100. jrmu tom_: Yeah. I was thinking of providing something like a one-stop infrastructure service for open source developers
  101. jrmu like a google drive + email + slack service for education/open source
  102. tom jrmu, like this https://www.linode.com/
  103. jrmu Linode only provides VPSes, I thought?
  104. jrmu Right now a lot of developers are using freenode and that's not very easy to use
  105. tom >loud Hosting for Developers High performance SSD Linux servers for all of your infrastructure needs.
  106. jrmu That requires self hosting though, it's too much work for most developers
  107. tom it's similar to what you were proposing yes? albeilt more like a hosted pbx than a virtual machine
  108. jrmu I was thinking of a github + gmail + dropbox + slack provider where it's just a few mouse clicks away, no programming needed
  109. jrmu The difference would be this provider would use open protocols, contribute the source code back for all software, and avoid data mining
  110. tom jrmu, oh. well then that exists already. look at nextcloud. it could use a bit of work but provides already most of what you describe with a plugin or two
  111. jrmu And probably charge a subscription fee
  112. jrmu Nextcloud has some serious issues I think, but that's sort of what I had in mind
  113. tom the JSXC javascript implementation of an xmpp client for in-browser use
  114. jrmu Nextcloud has the right idea but very bad execution
  115. jrmu eg the xmpp client can't connect with freenode or the rest of the IRC community, and the video streaming is sluggish and can't handle 1000s of simultaneous users
  116. tom I hate that they currently are screwing around with this nextcloud-talk webrtc thing when JSXC is already in the plugin repo, but you can see where it's coming from by reading the development tracker. people who don't know any better talking about "lets integreate rocketchat" type deal
  117. jrmu Ideally what we'd have is a video chat solution that works with IRC, so you could immediately chat with people already on IRC, plus add video on top
  118. jrmu Rocketchat looks good but also I struggled with it because it's very non-portable
  119. tom jrmu, i'd be interested in looking into the IRC situation. I've tried it myself by registering for transport service at the red hot chilli peppers XMPP server, but I'm not sure if their service is broken or what I could not get it to work properly
  120. jrmu I couldn't figure out how to install it on openbsd
  121. tom jrmu, I've been forced to use it and host it for a medium sized enterprise
  122. jrmu Did you like it?
  123. jrmu The UI looked great but administering it looked like a nightmare
  124. tom the whole thing is a pile of crap. there isn't even a native client, it's just a embedded web browser type deal, like discord
  125. jrmu ah =/
  126. tom and the backend is a nodejs blob
  127. jrmu That's what I had feared
  128. tom javascript and backend servers do not go well together. I
  129. jrmu Yep
  130. tom there's a reason javascript is isolated (or was supposed to be before nodejs) to web browsers
  131. tom but rocketchat offers nothing more than the baseline XMPP implementation, maybe even less. the only thing the sets it up is it's user interface, which is similar to the riot type deal
  132. jrmu Yeah Riot has a nice UI
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  134. tom what you get with rocket chat is HTTP_UPLOAD, mucs, and that is about it
  135. tom (functionality wise)
  136. jrmu They also have jitsi meet in there somewhere I think?
  137. tom no
  138. jrmu ah
  139. tom it's just a slightly less bad slack
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  141. jrmu If only we could have a Riot client for IRC =)
  142. jrmu then we'd be talking
  143. tom who's maintain it though
  144. tom *who'd
  145. jrmu Yeah that's why we need to solve that profit issue, hehe
  146. tom in order for that to work you'd have to alienate powerusers and professionals
  147. jrmu IMO, the best way to profit right now is to focus on providing an open source / education platform
  148. jrmu Since the main people who'd be willing to pay are open source enthusiasts
  149. tom and hobbyist developers aren't going to want to spend time maintaining something they would never want to use
  150. tom so this would have to come from a fund
  151. jrmu Provide a turn-key service for a slack-like alternative to freenode
  152. jrmu That open source developers could use, and charge a monthly subscription fee for storage/bandwidth
  153. tom https://dino.im/
  154. jrmu There's not a chance we can compete with freenode
  155. jrmu err
  156. jrmu There's not a chance we can compete with discord*
  157. jrmu but there's a chance we could compete with freenode
  158. tom I don't going back to irc is a good idea
  159. tom briding sure
  160. jrmu Dino has a nice UI
  161. jrmu This looks good, surprised I didn't notice it before
  162. tom well it's certainly subjective
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  166. jrmu This looks better than gajim
  167. jrmu Any serious flaws to dino?
  168. tom looks like computer illiterate smartphone-inteface-on-computer cancer toy to me. but I understand the need for a client of such nature
  169. jrmu Yeah for normal people
  170. tom no
  171. jrmu I think the IRC protocol itself can be rescued, I'm trying to work on adding a lot of XMPP's features to IRC, like file upload, message sync
  172. jrmu There's no need to even change the protocol, it can be layered on with services and bots
  173. jrmu and bouncers
  174. tom using the term 'normal people' is misleading
  175. jrmu hehe
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  177. jrmu no worries I understand what you mean. I'm using bitlbee+irssi
  178. jrmu I don't like GUIs either
  179. tom I like GUIs. got thing against them. I use Hexchat
  180. tom but i'm sure you can see theres a major difference in target audience between hexchat, and say...dino
  181. jrmu Yeah
  182. tom https://hexchat.github.io/img/screenshot-windows.png
  183. tom http://mamchenkov.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/HexChat.png
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  186. tom such as a major target audience difference in Gajim 0.16.X and Gajim 1.X
  187. jrmu For me, the focus needs to be more on the...discord type audience
  188. jrmu As mike brought up, the network effect is really important for networking protocols
  189. jrmu if we could get 1 million users on open protocols, it'd make a huge difference in terms of how attractive the protocols become
  190. jrmu Otherwise, people will say irc and xmpp are dead
  191. tom are you really sure about that? because we had that before. everybody and their grandma had a jabber endpoint/jid
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  193. Licaon_Kter XMPP is used by billions....in some form...but yeah...dead...
  194. tom I feel like that kind of target is just going to mosey around to whatever has the most advetising of the time period, regardless of quality, standardization, security, privacy, usability, etc
  195. tom back when google exposed jabber federation
  196. tom albeit with a complete refusal to do so properly, IE TLS force-turned off
  197. tom what tf was up with that anyways?
  198. Licaon_Kter Gajim is constantly evolving, try the snapshots, it can be made more like Dino if you wish.
  199. jrmu The XMPP that is used by billions isn't the open kind, and it isn't what the open source community is using
  200. tom google of all companies surely could figure out how to get a X.509 certificate. and have the manpower to modify any server implementation to spy on their users more
  201. jrmu That's the big problem
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  203. jrmu I can't connect to any of those networks using a foss client =(
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  205. tom well unless you got silicon valley venture captialist money to blow up online advetising I think we are going to stay stuck in the AOL-email era. Best forget about trying to get the most userbase right now and focus on ourselves and our painpoints
  206. tom email was invented in the 1970s and it wasn't until the 1990s we got the proliferation and federation we have today
  207. tom right now the markets that need relibility, robustness, and standardization are the ones using XMPP
  208. tom https://www.ia.nato.int/niapc/Product/SDoT-Security-Gateway-version-6.0_711
  209. tom https://i56578-swl.blogspot.com/2018/12/xmpp-over-hf-radio-using-stanag-5066.html
  210. tom https://www.isode.com/markets/military-xmpp.html
  211. jrmu hm, so the US military
  212. tom not just the US military, NATO's tactical coms
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  215. tom tactical field communication
  216. jrmu what do you think about the open slack alternative for freenode?
  217. jrmu IMO that could be quite a big market
  218. tom also, on a bit of an unrelated note, something that may be useful to you jjrh https://www.isode.com/markets/military-xmpp.html#irc
  219. jrmu they are a market that cares about security and data ownership
  220. tom isode has an IRC gateway
  221. jrmu ah interesting
  222. jrmu although Isode IIRC, is proprietary so won't be of use to me
  223. tom maybe that specific isode server implementation
  224. tom but isode helps develop a lot of spec and has open source reference clients and libraires
  225. jrmu ah
  226. tom for one the pubsub forums XEPs were mostly from isode's contributions
  227. tom which the military uses for MEDIVAC
  228. jrmu Ah interesting
  229. tom https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0346.html
  230. tom if you look at the example stanza it shows isode
  231. jrmu ah
  232. tom https://www.isode.com/whitepapers/military-forms-using-xmpp.html
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  389. Allie DoD XMPP is so huge its hard to use, though
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  392. Allie plus the only client is Transverse
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  418. Allie I need to check out that other branch of gajim.
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  423. Allie although I might already be using 1.x...
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  427. muppeth Meh... no need to cry and complain. Everything we need is already here. Just needs some work here and there. Rather then flamewar (been there done that) everyone shoukd just check where they csn contribute and just go for it.
  428. muppeth Conversejs easily by pretty much anyone can be built into rriot like chat even with jirsi as a plugin.
  429. muppeth I managed to rebuild my little community after we left matrix pretty much from zero, and i was suprised when people started using xmpp for the first time and they were shock as to how fast, light and easy it is to use it
  430. muppeth And there is movim which is great webclient with even social network built in
  431. muppeth There is really less and less to complain about. Sure matrix has riot, developed by for profit company so much easier imo, but thats lretty much it. No other client has viop and barely any e2ee
  432. muppeth And since they have a for profit company that understands that to succed you need to hype it up (they are in the startup world) so they try to patch things like using jitsi to solve voip or now some library that is pretty much a e2ee bridge beteen your client and server etc
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  434. muppeth Sounds nice but in long run lots of duct tape
  435. muppeth > They have clients that offers features and gives what people wants today. XMPP don't Meh.... its a hype thing. Your client does everything and more. No need to be ashamed of it.
  436. Martin Am I missing messages or is muppeth having a long monologue?
  437. muppeth You even have reactions!!!!
  438. muppeth Martin: was in the metro
  439. MattJ Martin, shush, don't stop him, it's great!
  440. Martin https://files.mdosch.de:64183/upload/7dBm13VkPv1cctQP/Screenshot_20190911-174958_Conversations.png
  441. muppeth So yeah typical muppeth rant
  442. Martin Ok 😃
  443. muppeth MattJ: hahahaha... just got to my stop so that would be it for now hahababa
  444. Martin I'm in the metro too but I don't feel like ranting. 😂
  445. MattJ Martin, wow. Which city's metro doesn't make you feel like ranting? :)
  446. Martin Munich
  447. Martin It's crowded now but it's rush hour so I am used to it. 😃
  448. Allie oh and re: discord, ughhhhh... it just irritates me. I set up an account for the first time the other day to get a transport working with spectrum. I don't know why people love the interface because it's cluttered and horrible to me.
  449. Allie only got one person to talk to on it, but they refuse to use anything else, hence the transport
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  451. Martin Ha, Allie takes over ranting. 😃
  452. Allie 👵📢☁️
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  456. Martin Ha, I really like Simpsons references. 😃
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  459. Allie hehehe
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  462. Allie I'm not old, but it's interesting to be old enough to watch people just keep reinventing the wheel
  463. muppeth > Ha, Allie takes over ranting. 😃 Hahahaa should make shifts
  464. Allie lol
  465. muppeth But seriously.should turn that frustration into positive thing. Just like others do. You know. Gajim doesnt have ugly ui, it a sophisticated tool for specialists. We dont lack good clients for iOS, we are just careful with adding new features to provide the best and the most robust and well tested and handcrafted user experience.
  466. Licaon_Kter muppeth: good spin
  467. Allie If I'm ever in a place where my programming skills are decent enough I may help out with some existing projects. But I also gotta have time which is in short supply these days 😔
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  471. muppeth Allie: thats just lame excuse everyone uses. Last week i reskinned conversejs l. Did not take any skills (i'm lame dev) and if you lokm around there is plenty that could be done. Theming, helping with design, writting posts, promoting, troubleshooting omemo on all possible cients, etc
  472. Licaon_Kter muppeth: link reskin?
  473. muppeth Licaon_Kter: webchat.disroot.org the code will be published this week as we're migrsting to new git instance
  474. Licaon_Kter muppeth: 👍
  475. muppeth https://disroot.org/upload/shWngElb9IiCrfho/VhfryVMiRx-1vnFxI7w7Cg.jpg
  476. muppeth https://disroot.org/upload/654KcwQao5Nc-x-U/-QdUlPNwS4eprn22yixCzw.jpg
  477. Allie muppeth: I feel like there's a difference in working with web stuff vs local applications, though. I can do web stuff fine. Plus I'm still trying to wrap my head around XMPP protocol wise. I've been working on a bot for my own server to try and get a better handle on things.
  478. Allie that is a pretty nice layout
  479. muppeth Allie: but all the others are successful because they dont care about local stuff. Discord, mattermost, rocketchat and riot is just electron
  480. Allie I know. I want nice local apps to use myself, though 🙂
  481. muppeth And since we have three webchats already there and web stuff is very easy entry point for everyone, why no jump in and improve on it so we have aweome webchat solution for xmpp which solves the issue of multiplatform
  482. Licaon_Kter muppeth: great, too bad that concorde theme is kinda abanadoned/broken
  483. muppeth And then the non-lame gurus can work on native client improvements
  484. muppeth Allie: i use conversations on mobile and dino on desktop and i'm very satisfied with it
  485. Allie I still gotta get a web interface to my instance. So maybe I'll play with that then.
  486. muppeth Dont need more atm. I have gajim but as someone said it for special admin stuff
  487. Allie I have Dino installed but it's a little too simplistic for me. I use Conversations on Android and Gajim on my desktop
  488. muppeth > muppeth: great, too bad that concorde theme is kinda abanadoned/broken Initially i was hacking on the main theme but now i want to move it as a proper seperate theme and push it upstream
  489. muppeth Allie: what non simplistic features you need for everyday use for text messeging system
  490. Licaon_Kter muppeth: better update and fix those CVEs https://github.com/conversejs/converse.js/releases/tag/v5.0.2
  491. muppeth Licaon_Kter: thanks will do.
  492. Licaon_Kter And Dino, same issues
  493. Allie muppeth: if I did nothing but msg people, Dino is probably fine. but running my own server (albeit not with many users) I like having service discovery, being able to manage transports, ad-hoc commands, etc.
  494. muppeth Allie: i ise those rarely so every now and then i start gajim just to do those specific things but most of the time dino is just fine
  495. muppeth Allie: which tranports are you running?
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  497. Allie right now spectrum for discord and biboumi for IRC, although might be adding more
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  499. muppeth Allie: can discordtransport be configured by user (like bridging rooms/joiing rooms etc) or you need admin for that?
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  504. Allie I think with spectrum it works like pretty much any regular transport. You can msg individuals, join rooms, etc., but not bridge to existing MUCs I don't think. Unfortunately it's limited because stupid discord won't let you login unless you login to the official web app from my server's IP first. So that really limits its usefulness unless spectrum adds the ability to handle captchas
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  533. rom1dep > Gajim doesnt have ugly ui, it a sophisticated tool for specialists. I have few happy users on gajim, they aren't exactly young or advanced on the computer literacy spectrum.
  534. Allie Gajim usually works well for me except for little annoying issues sometimes
  535. Allie or it'll be like "Welp... 🤷‍♀️" and crash
  536. rom1dep What really kills it (and Dino) is imho the inaptitude of Gtk3 to behave and look well on anything but a gnome env. But that's another topic
  537. Allie yeah
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