Monday, February 07, 2011
summit@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Summit discussion

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[06:40:10] <Florian> morning all
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[07:00:53] <bmalkow> morning
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[07:32:36] <Florian> morning
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[08:02:52] <bear> Xavier said via email that he enjoyed giving his talk and appreciated the people in the room who were helping organize
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[08:32:27] <stpeter> bear: good -- please ask him to send us his slides :)
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[08:41:21] <Wayne Franklin> Good morning everyone.
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[08:42:07] <Wayne Franklin> Can someone post the link to Peter's i18n presentation from Friday.
[08:42:48] <hildjj>
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[08:45:26] <stpeter> Wayne Franklin: http://www.saint-andre.com/jabber/i18n-for-the-perplexed.pdf
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[08:49:48] <Johann Prieur> good morning
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[08:50:10] <Fritzy> Aloha
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[08:50:29] <intosi@ik.nu> Morning
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[08:51:59] <bear> would love to see a recording of that i18n talk - I can imagine more talking happened than what the slides show for words
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[08:53:24] <linuxwolf> bear: I don't think we recorded the first talk … which may leave you behind with the second /-:
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[08:54:05] <bear> thats fine - i'm sadly a very broken and scarred unicode veteran ;)
[08:54:18] <bear> so the second talk may be more useful :)
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[08:58:55] <hildjj> Some other characters to add to your list of edge cases: ﷺ (U+FDFA), ΐ (U+0390), Dž (U+01C5)
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[09:04:31] <stpeter> hildjj: cool, let's keep track of those -- perhaps we want to create a wiki page on ietf.org?
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[09:05:20] <hildjj> nod.
[09:05:34] <hildjj> reminder: http://www.mclean.net.nz/ucf/ for those without unicode checker
[09:05:35] <Dave Cridland> We control the temp by changing the number of hackers in the room.
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[09:06:55] <js> stpeter: do we already take care of ZWNBSP?
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[09:07:23] <stpeter> http://typewith.me/AzdW3AgDSZ
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[09:25:58] <Kev> Urgh.
[09:26:04] <Kev> So, how do I usefully contribute to this from here?
[09:26:19] <ralphm@ik.nu> Hey Kev
[09:26:25] <ralphm@ik.nu> How are you feeling?
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[09:26:49] <Kev> I'm out of bed, which is an improvement on most of the last week, thanks.
[09:26:57] <Kev> I'm not so bad now.
[09:27:16] <ralphm@ik.nu> You can follow the transcript thingy stpeter is keeping at the URL above
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[09:27:19] <ralphm@ik.nu> and type here
[09:27:21] <Kev> Yep, I'm doing that.
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[09:28:36] *MattJ waves
[09:28:38] <Kev> There seem to be three main requirements for DMUC - continuing access during partitioning, dealing with slow links and reducing ~duplicate stanzas across a single link.
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[09:29:15] <hildjj> Dave is talking about DMUC.
[09:29:38] <hildjj> i would love it if he burst out in song, of course.
[09:29:43] <Kev> I'll wait for someone to transcribe, then.
[09:30:02] <Kev> Oh, you're in Cisco. I don't suppose the room's equipped to webex is it? :)
[09:30:31] <hildjj> Kev, we looked into it, but couldn't make it happen here.
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[09:30:37] <Kev> Bugger.
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[09:30:44] <hildjj> it's not our home office, so we couldn't make destructive changes.
[09:30:53] <MattJ> Kev: Don't say that near Fritzy
[09:31:09] <stpeter> Kev: Dave can bring you up to speed :)
[09:31:40] <hildjj> MattJ: fritzy hates teh webexes?
[09:31:40] <ralphm@ik.nu> ClusterMUC™
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[09:32:44] <MattJ> hildjj: Nah, Kev's exclamation of defeat
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[09:36:14] <hildjj> could folks in the physical room help scribe more either here or in the TypeWith.me page?
[09:36:22] <stpeter> hildjj: +1
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[09:36:50] <Florian> could someone repost the URL?
[09:36:55] <hildjj> http://typewith.me/AzdW3AgDSZ
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[09:36:55] <Kev> http://typewith.me/AzdW3AgDSZ
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[09:37:13] <Kev> I'd greatly appreciate it, I'm not happy about have to have missed this.
[09:37:49] <remko> Kev: you're already punished enough because you had to miss the pizza
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[09:40:54] <js> talking of food. are there any plans to catch some food during the summit?
[09:41:08] <MattJ> js: There shall be lunch
[09:41:09] <intosi@ik.nu> I believe there will be food.
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[09:41:53] <stpeter> lunch will be served at noon
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[09:41:56] <js> nice
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[09:44:21] <Kev> Several to Many.
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[09:48:27] <MattJ> ralphm@ik.nu: The slides are in stpeter's email yesterday - 'my slides for Monday morning'
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[09:49:18] <ralphm> MattJ: thanks
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[09:52:05] *winfried loves the elegance of Dave's proposal, looks to me the least complicated, clearest
[09:52:18] <MattJ> +1
[09:52:32] <Dave Cridland> It's not mine, as such. it's mostly Curtis and Kev.
[09:52:35] <MattJ> Some things need hashing out though
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[09:52:51] <MattJ> It's also much better than IRC at netsplits :)
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[09:53:03] <Florian> Kev: do you want a live video stream?
[09:53:24] <Kev> Do you mean something more advanced than a Skype call?
[09:53:37] <Florian> ah, you have that already...
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[09:53:46] <Florian> I would offer Qik or uStream
[09:54:01] <hildjj> florian is sitting closer to the front than i am, so his might be better anyway.
[09:54:06] <winfried> Indeed, why setup a complicated Proxy or master-slave system just to mimic IRC-netsplits ;-)
[09:54:10] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, I certainly agree there's scant detail in what we're proposing, as yet.
[09:54:12] <Kev> I'm hearing Peter fine atm.
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[09:55:25] <winfried> Dave just had a netsplit I believe ;-)
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[09:56:08] <Florian> give me 10mins to set it up
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[09:57:10] <Kev> So my current state here is that I've got a new MUC-Sync spec I need to write, and then update FMUC to use it, and then discuss it.
[09:57:22] <Dave Cridland> winfried, Yeah... Need a local server.
[09:57:23] <Kev> So I'm happy to do it that way.
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[09:58:30] <Kev> Because no-one's insane enough to want to define MUC 3.0 based on pubsub.
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[09:59:01] <Kev> And the issue with sync etc. is exactly the same.
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[09:59:29] <bear> someone is streaming?
[09:59:38] <Florian> I will be in a second
[09:59:40] <Kev> I'm on a Skype call with hildjj.
[09:59:43] <Florian> just figuring out Qik on the N900
[09:59:48] <bear> ah
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[10:02:27] <BenC> My attention span is no longer keeping up with my fingers. I'm dropping off typing on typewith for a while
[10:02:58] <Kev> Thanks Ben, it's been useful.
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[10:03:29] <bear> does the older flood/fill algorithm of olden internet days useful here?
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[10:04:16] <bear> wow - early morning english ftw
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[10:04:46] <Florian> hildjj: could you get me a second WiFi login for the N900 to stream?
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[10:10:19] <bear> wifi must be dropping folks a lot in that room
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[10:10:54] <js> works fine with 5 GHz
[10:11:04] <MattJ> bear: Really? :)
[10:11:14] <Kev> I guess Joe's trying to stream to Bear as well as me now, and it's killing his connection.
[10:11:23] <hildjj> kev/bear, i'm going to just start a webex.
[10:11:24] <Kev> It was fine previously.
[10:11:36] <bear> yea, i'm going to drop off if it's causing issues with kev's reception
[10:11:41] <js> though on friday it had a few problems with 2.4 GHz
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[10:11:47] <Dave Cridland> Streaming video would seem interesting, if we can.
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[10:12:19] *bear closes skype
[10:12:20] <hildjj> i'm on a different subnet/radio channel than you guys.
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[10:14:56] <Florian> I get really bad wifi
[10:15:03] <hildjj> https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?AT=WMI&EventID=138622147&PW=660e3d5d0402060b530e&RT=MiM2
[10:15:07] <js> florian: try 5 GHz
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[10:16:41] <Kev> hildjj: Thanks very much, going through the Preparing dance now.
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[10:19:05] <Florian> http://qik.ly/GfPtx
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[10:21:04] *bear goes to file a bug for FF4 and Java extensions
[10:21:17] *bear curses dogfooding firefox beta nightlies
[10:21:32] <hildjj> bear: put FF4 into 32bit mode.
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[10:23:28] <Florian> Qik should be streaming
[10:23:33] <Kev> It is, thanks.
[10:23:41] <Kev> I'm streaming both atm so I can swap when one fails :)
[10:23:44] <Florian> low quality as the WiFi doesn't work for me
[10:24:10] <Florian> is the quality ok?
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[10:24:16] <stpeter> Florian: I can set you up for wifi
[10:24:31] *** rlb shows as "online"
[10:25:11] *** BenC shows as "online"
[10:25:36] <Florian> I have WiFi keys, they network in this corner just doesn't work properly
[10:26:01] <Florian> will try to improve it for the second half of the day
[10:26:59] <stpeter> ah
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[10:29:29] <Florian> coffe cup moved :)
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[10:39:54] <Florian> is it just me that is having issues with the WiFi dropping packets massively?
[10:40:04] <Florian> well, I guess that Kick just answered my question :)
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[10:42:40] *** Wayne Franklin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:42:57] <hildjj> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden
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[10:45:26] *** Wayne Franklin shows as "online"
[10:45:26] *** Wayne Franklin shows as "online"
[10:49:14] <Kev> I've got webex and qik going, one on each of two machines, and I'm turning audio on/off on each stream based on who's speaking so I can hear them :)
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[10:49:35] *** rlb shows as "online"
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[10:49:46] <Florian> hehe :)
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[10:50:59] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[10:51:39] <ralphm> http://twitter.com/#!/mobilevikings/status/34559653098561536
[10:52:12] <Florian> ;)
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[10:55:09] *** BenC shows as "online"
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[10:57:38] <Dave Cridland> Fun.
[10:57:56] <js> btw is it possible to get another wifi key for my mobile?
[10:58:10] <js> my problem was my server's route being lost, not the wifi :/
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[10:59:54] <stpeter> time for a break
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[11:00:07] <Kev> Can we have a live stream of the sandwiches? :D
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[11:00:23] <Florian> Kev ... sure
[11:00:24] <Florian> i'll set one up :D
[11:00:28] <Kev> Not really.
[11:00:28] <intosi@ik.nu> @Kev: we can try to stream them across the channel...
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[11:03:05] <stpeter> heh
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[11:11:18] *** Jonas shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[11:23:08] <stpeter> for this afternoon's session, we'll be chatting in xmpp:xmpp@jabber.ietf.org
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[11:24:06] <stpeter> hi bear
[11:24:13] <bear> hello again
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[11:25:06] <bear> black ice and drunk driver == power pole destroyed
[11:25:12] <stpeter> ouch
[11:25:20] <bear> and me finding out I have one UPS overloaded (the hard way)
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[11:43:50] *** rlb shows as "online"
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[11:44:45] <hildjj> https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?AT=WMI&EventID=138622947&PW=252d4c05551816160222&RT=MiMyMg%3D%3D
[11:44:48] *** Wayne Franklin shows as "online"
[11:45:02] <hildjj> and please move to xmpp:xmpp@jabber.ietf.org?join
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[11:56:13] <Kev> *wave
[11:56:18] <Artur Hefczyc> hi
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[12:17:56] <l-fy> hi
[12:18:16] <hildjj> we're all over in xmpp@jabber.ietf.org
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[12:18:59] <l-fy> i know
[12:19:53] *** Wayne Franklin shows as "online"
[12:19:54] <winfried> I have got some s2s issue it seams, can't join the room...
[12:20:08] <Florian> same
[12:20:10] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[12:20:15] <Florian> investigating...
[12:20:26] <Artur Hefczyc> what soft is running there?
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[12:23:29] <Florian> Artur Hefczyc: we're running Tigase :)
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[12:23:38] <winfried> LOL
[12:24:23] <Artur Hefczyc> hehe
[12:24:26] <Artur Hefczyc> good
[12:24:48] <Artur Hefczyc> what version of the Tigase then?
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[12:25:05] <Florian> Artur Hefczyc: see my private messages :)
[12:25:35] <winfried> Name: Tigase
Version: 5.1.0-b2506
Os: Linux-amd64-2.6.34.6-xxxx-std-ipv6-64, Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM-17.1-b03-Sun Microsystems Inc.
[12:25:46] <Artur Hefczyc> I asked what software is running on jabber.ietf.org
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[12:27:05] <Dave Cridland> !version jabber.ietf.org
[12:27:06] <Kanchil> Dave Cridland: jabber.ietf.org doesn't support feature requests
[12:27:16] <Dave Cridland> !version ietf.org
[12:27:17] <Kanchil> Dave Cridland: ietf.org is running ejabberd version 2.0.1 on unix/linux 2.6.22
[12:27:24] <Dave Cridland> Kanchil, Thanks.
[12:27:34] <Artur Hefczyc> ah, ok
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[12:29:47] <Dave Cridland> So not my fault. :-)
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[12:30:24] <Artur Hefczyc> hehe
[12:30:58] <Dave Cridland> It's nice for a change.
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[12:31:45] <Artur Hefczyc> that the beauty of putting your soft on jabber.org, everybody blames you ;-)
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[12:33:12] <Astro> !version summit@muc.xmpp.org/Astro
[12:33:12] <Kanchil> Astro: You are running Gajim version 0.14.0.1-c63b9caadd5b on Debian GNU/Linux 6.0 (squeeze)
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[12:34:55] <robert.mcqueen> hrm, did we implement version in the end?
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[12:35:08] <robert.mcqueen> !version robert.mcqueen@collabora.co.uk
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[12:35:12] <Kanchil> robert.mcqueen: robert.mcqueen@collabora.co.uk doesn't reply to version requests
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[12:35:19] <Astro> robert.mcqueen: full jid?
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[12:35:25] *** Johann Prieur shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:35:48] <robert.mcqueen> !version summit@muc.xmpp.org/robert.mcqueen
[12:35:49] <Kanchil> robert.mcqueen: summit@muc.xmpp.org/robert.mcqueen doesn't reply to version requests
[12:36:05] <robert.mcqueen> bah
[12:36:17] <Dave Cridland> .
[12:36:18] <will.thompson> no, we didn't. we talked about a possible implementation on Friday, remember? :)
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[12:40:31] <winfried> any advances Florian? getting a kind of impatient over here ;-)
[12:40:50] <Artur Hefczyc> give me a sec please
[12:41:31] <Florian> looks like ejabberd is broken :)
[12:41:52] <Dave Cridland> It's working okay for me.
[12:42:13] <Artur Hefczyc> apparently you have broken soft too ;-)
[12:42:28] <winfried> have seen interoperability issues between tigase en ejabberd before
[12:42:50] <winfried> (our Berlin-branch runs eJabberd ;-) _
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[12:50:28] <Artur Hefczyc> winfried: sorry, I am working on this now, but it looks it may take a while before I can fix it
[12:50:38] <Artur Hefczyc> or workaround it, whatever it is
[12:50:45] <winfried> ok...
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[12:51:41] <winfried> thanks for diving into it Arthur!
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[12:54:21] <Artur Hefczyc> it's like never ending story between tigase and ejabberd, once I get it working, they release a new version which does not work :-(
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[12:57:58] <l-fy> Artur you are being picky :)
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[12:58:46] <Artur Hefczyc> yes, you are right
[12:58:50] <Artur Hefczyc> sorry
[12:59:19] <Artur Hefczyc> I know, that the Tigase which is buggy and needs fixing, I should get back to work on it and stop complaining
[12:59:21] <Artur Hefczyc> :-)
[12:59:49] <winfried> well... complaining seems to be fashionable
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[13:00:22] <bear> never considered pointing out failure patterns to be complaining - but that's just me I think
[13:00:26] <Artur Hefczyc> indeed
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[13:02:09] <Artur Hefczyc> eh, and I was so close to the ultimate solution for all world problems and Tigase performance, but…. I was called to presentation and now it is all gone ;-)
[13:03:02] <winfried> 42 it is ;-)
[13:03:13] <Bartosz Malkowski> lol :D
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[13:06:55] <stpeter> low battery, leaving
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[13:25:23] <MattJ> hildjj: Why does the I and V not recompose to "IV"?
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[13:29:51] <hildjj> MattJ, because there's no recombination specified for I + V, or Rajiv would recompose.
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[13:30:01] <hildjj> which would be bad.
[13:30:06] <arty> because you'r loosing information. I V -> I V, IV -> I V, now what should be the recompose of I V ? S.th. from {I V, IV} of course. And the simplier one wins....
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[13:34:54] <MattJ> hildjj: Oh, so they don't decompose to something like roman numeral I, roman numeral V
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[13:36:00] <hildjj> right. they decompose into a "normal" i and v.
[13:36:43] <arty> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle
[13:36:52] <MattJ> arty: Yes :)
[13:37:24] <MattJ> I was just surprised that such a simple character could grow in "width" after NFKC
[13:37:27] <hildjj> there are some little nuggets still coming out.
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[13:41:12] <MattJ> Oh, this isn't the room I thought it was
[13:42:19] <arty> Do we have a remote clue about what would be needed for international usage or is this about enabling and blocking random char sets?
[13:42:45] <SimonT> I kinda agree: we need some more international people here before we can tease this out more. This stuff is complicated.
[13:43:01] <MattJ> arty: There are sets of unicode characters marked as e.g. "symbols" that we could choose to drop
[13:43:05] <MattJ> I'm not in favour of that though
[13:43:17] <arty> yes, or we could choose to support what people *care* about.
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[13:45:55] <SimonT> we also have the issue of whether this stuff is even displayable on clients. For example the "pile of poo" is not even displayable - http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f4a9/browsertest.htm
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[13:46:46] <Wayne Franklin> The thing I remember about bi-di is that you have to deal with inserting western language in the middle and the western stuff has to read left to right even though the flow of a sentence is right to left.
[13:48:13] <winfried> about the numbers: arabic numbers for example are just LTR characters...
[13:48:22] <remko> SimonT: wtf :)
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[13:49:02] <Wayne Franklin> For a short time in North Carolina they were issuing license plates in the series WTF-####
[13:49:41] <MattJ> arty: the problem is that "what people care about" can change, and what we decide now won't be changed for decades ;)
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[13:50:31] <winfried> Wayne Franklin: lets say for example lowercase is LTR and uppercase is RTL then the string is stored like: abcDEFghi, but rendered liek abcFEDghi
[13:51:28] <SimonT> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5892
[13:51:42] <winfried> so that is a UI issue, (when embedding those in html, it can mess up your rendering), but can't think of an issues with XMPP
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[13:54:41] <hildjj> example from RFC 3454, section 6: If a string contains any RandALCat character, the string MUST NOT
contain any LCat character

[13:54:50] <hildjj> If a string contains any RandALCat character, a RandALCat
character MUST be the first character of the string, and a
RandALCat character MUST be the last character of the string

[13:55:00] <Wayne Franklin> That's one way to deal with it
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[13:55:24] <arty> MattJ: Well, societies usually move slowly. Anyway, I'm not sure if I want to see Šƫǝƒǡɳ in my contacts list, whereas I accept Константин Тарасов ..... I'm just not sure if the discussion at this abstract technical level is in any way correct or respecting reality
[13:55:30] <hildjj> and there's also U+200E and U+200F.
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[13:56:16] <MattJ> arty: The problem is that (unlike IDNA's registrar-blocking approach) we can't really control things geographically the same way
[13:56:33] <MattJ> I don't want to accept Константин Тарасов - I'm a stupid Englishman :)
[13:56:38] <Wayne Franklin> :)
[13:56:43] <arty> :-)
[13:57:09] <MattJ> This is all very localised, but XMPP is global and decentralised, we need to find a common ground on what we can/can't globally enforce
[13:57:17] <hildjj> I have our admin working on making sure everyone in the world just speaks English.
[13:57:18] <arty> actually, you don't have to accept him, but you should allow him to use his native language for his name.
[13:57:24] <Wayne Franklin> I don't think it's a bad idea to follow the example of email addresses for JIDs
[13:57:41] <Astro> hildjj: he's root, he can do that...
[13:57:58] <MattJ> arty: Many of the characters in "Šƫǝƒǡɳ" are "native" to some part of the world, is my point
[13:58:03] <hildjj> well she's relatively non-technical, but very persuasive.
[13:58:12] <MattJ> Blocking stuff like this isn't really a protocol issue
[13:58:13] <winfried> hildjj: U+200E and U+200F are a problem indeed
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[13:58:48] <Wayne Franklin> What are U+200E and U+200F? Space characters?
[13:58:56] <Astro> Wayne Franklin: LTR/RTL
[13:59:01] <Wayne Franklin> oh
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[13:59:26] <hildjj> LEFT-TO-RIGHT MARK, RIGHT-TO-LEFT MARK
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[13:59:50] <arty> MattJ: do you know or asume that? It would be really easy to e.g. pull all wikipedias and check all names in all languages (quite easy, did more or less that for en.wp.org)
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[14:01:32] <MattJ> arty: caron is commonly used in languages, sure
[14:02:06] <MattJ> I think the others are mostly phonetic
[14:02:24] <MattJ> But my point is that we shouldn't randomly block things that look "strange" to us
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[14:03:01] <MattJ> because later on someone will come along and find that due to our ignorance in 2011 they can't register a user account on a server in their native language in 2020
[14:03:14] <MattJ> whateve
[14:03:14] <MattJ> r
[14:03:24] <arty> That's why I mean measure it. Analysis of wikipedia is a bit biased but fast & easy, and perhaps safer than doing for some random unicode flags
[14:03:35] <arty> and it might help us to understand the problem space better
[14:03:54] <hildjj> arty: suggest that on the list.
[14:03:58] <MattJ> Measuring wikipedia isn't exactly scientific
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[14:04:22] <arty> MattJ: Suggest that on wikipedia-research list :-)
[14:04:39] <MattJ> I agree it's better than making uninformed decisions about what we block, but then - why should we block anything?
[14:04:54] <MattJ> Many of the "valid" characters are as, or more, complex cases than symbols and what-not
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[14:05:53] <MattJ> Except for really obvious cases like direction markers and some space stuff, I'm not sure there's a point in trying to decide what should/should not be allowed in XMPP
[14:06:08] <Dave Cridland> My gut feeling is that we need a normalization form (and mapping rules for case folding), but I suspect aside from things like space characters not being allowed, much will end up as local policy.
[14:06:09] <MattJ> and obviously even direction markers are up for questioning
[14:06:31] <MattJ> Dave Cridland: That's not easy if you then get interop issues between servers
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[14:07:37] <MattJ> arty: Measuring wikipedia gives you statistics, statistics are not science, they're a sub-class of lies as everyone knows
[14:08:42] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, Assuming that servers normalize on the wire, and domains are normalized and mapped interoperably, I don't think there's a problem.
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[14:09:02] <MattJ> Normalization is what we are discussing, no?
[14:09:39] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, Only partly. Normalization is basically NF[K]{C|D} + case folding.
[14:09:53] <MattJ> Sure
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[14:10:09] <MattJ> so if you allow one set of characters, and I don't... I'm meant to bend my normalization rules?
[14:10:14] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, Servers *may* also need to consider the RTL/LTR issues, and the rest. It's not clear to me that a global policy on anything but domain parts is required.
[14:10:23] <MattJ> I don't see that things are going to work if we have different normalization rules on different servers
[14:10:27] <Kev> Disallowing characters isn't part of normalization, is it?
[14:10:44] <MattJ> Kev: Technically I'd say not, but for the purposes of this discussion... :)
[14:10:51] <MattJ> it's covered by NF*
[14:10:56] <MattJ> aiui
[14:10:58] <arty> MattJ: So what would you measure? Wikipedia has especially person names. Many person names. How about just extracting them and see how they work against suggestions? Yes, this will not be the final result but a nice *testset*. I dislike settling without any sort of idea what would be needed.
[14:10:58] <Kev> I mean, given that I use NFC (for example) for normalization, doomsong my still choose to disallow local localparts that have a 'z' in them.
[14:11:10] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, NF* covers prohibited characters? I didn't think so.
[14:11:21] <Kev> That doesn't cause interop problems with jabber.org, which naively allows people with z in their name.
[14:11:26] <MattJ> arty: I dislike setting, so we're kind of in agreement :)
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[14:14:28] <Wayne Franklin> MattJ: Are you in favor of case folding?
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[14:14:35] <MattJ> Yes
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[14:14:42] <Dave Cridland> Kev, Right, and in addition doomsong.co.uk would only care about it's own localparts.
[14:15:02] <Dave Cridland> Wayne Franklin, We have case-folding on local parts already, i think changing would be catastrophic.
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[14:15:37] <MattJ> Kev: You can decide on your server to allow/disallow what you want - but we're setting a baseline that everyone MUST comply with
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[14:15:40] <Kev> Well, it cares in three ways. It cares about applying normalization everywhere, global prohibitions everywhere, and local prohibitions (z) only to local addresses.
[14:15:48] <Wayne Franklin> I'm just trying to find where the line is to be drawn between accepting and not accepting a jid part
[14:16:03] <MattJ> saying "there is no baseline, do what you want" is a recipe for disaster as far as JID internationalisation is concerned
[14:16:17] <Kev> MattJ: Yes, and that's just fine, but the question is whether the baseline has to be very high at all.
[14:16:29] <Kev> You have to prohibit anything resembling a space, certainly.
[14:16:39] <MattJ> Right, that's what I think too
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[14:16:57] <MattJ> I'm not in favour of blocking large ranges of characters
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[14:17:18] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, So what the idea is is that locally, you might say "My users may not have half-width hangul characters".
[14:17:19] <Kev> I am, but I'm in favour of the servers doing it, I think, rather than protocol.
[14:17:23] <MattJ> I don't see why a server would /want/ to, but they're free to do that as a deployment decision if they wish and accept the consequences
[14:17:30] <Robot101> aren't we already screwed - does XMPP disallow xn-- domain parts atm?
[14:17:53] <Robot101> so people can and will set up jids @ localised domains
[14:17:59] <Robot101> which will go onto rosters...
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[14:18:02] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, But globally, we can say "Take a node, apply NFD, case-fold, and if it contains any space-like characters reject"
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[14:18:26] <Robot101> so we basically already must require that, for example, servers must decompose domain parts to punycode for storage/comparison
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[14:18:35] <MattJ> Robot101: We don't use the xn-- domains directly, their unicode equivalent go across the wire and in storage
[14:18:36] <Robot101> or we'll never have any backwards compatibility
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[14:18:49] <MattJ> Robot101: conversion to ascii is only for DNS lookup
[14:19:00] <Robot101> what if someone configures their server to be @xn--.lala ?
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[14:19:15] <MattJ> Robot101: You get what you deserve ;)
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[14:19:40] <MattJ> Robot101: If you do that in prosody then it will return "host-unknown" when someone tries to connect to your (unicode) host
[14:19:41] <Robot101> is that documented anywhere as "don't do that" - in terms of hildjj's concern of people complaining at us?
[14:19:53] <Robot101> maybe its ok because its not a new problem
[14:19:57] <MattJ> I don't think it's documented, it's just not your hostname so you don't configure your server that way
[14:20:11] <MattJ> your hostname is the unicode variant
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[15:30:52] <js> hildjj: minutes are here: http://typewith.me/oVoICs8hD5
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[15:34:25] <Florian> could everyone at the end of this event give me back the SIM cards, as I need to send them back
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