Thursday, January 31, 2013
summit@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Summit discussion

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[08:43:29] <hildjj> https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/e.php?AT=WMI&EventID=215959417&PW=ae8ea25b403f203f&RT=MiMxNDc%3D
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[08:51:58] <fritzy> Neehaw
[08:52:06] <bear> wooo
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[08:56:27] <fritzy> Ralph is a hater.
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[08:56:37] <winfried> he is not well-formed...
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[08:56:59] <fritzy> must be that crazy Twisted stuff.
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[08:58:24] <fritzy> Ralph is really testing Swift's ability to summarize presence changes.
[08:59:19] <Florian> :)
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[09:00:44] <stpeter> :)
[09:00:46] <fritzy> it's too bad, but I can't hear anyone on the other end of the room. It'll work better when we break out into groups, I suppose.
[09:00:47] <Kev> fritzy; It's good, though :D
[09:00:53] <fritzy> Kev: oh yeah
[09:02:45] <bear> I never know what to say for these introductions
[09:02:57] <Kev> "Bear". Your name's "Bear".
[09:03:01] <bear> :P
[09:03:01] <fritzy> yup
[09:03:12] <Kev> Happy to help.
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[09:04:06] <hildjj> fritzy: it was hard to hear some of those people IRL
[09:04:09] <Kev> There. He remembered, phew.
[09:05:10] *** Steffen Larsen shows as "online"
[09:05:13] <fritzy> the JSON stuff isn't about changing XMPP.
[09:05:24] <bear> yea, that is what we need to keep reminding folks
[09:05:27] <fritzy> It's about making a bridge that can run at any layer for the increasing percentage of web developers
[09:07:14] *** winfried shows as "online" and his status message is "At the XMPP summit!"
[09:08:01] <fritzy> "as is traditional..." and then the audio cut off
[09:08:41] <Kev> Peter's saying there's lots of stuff we do.
[09:08:45] <Florian> If you want to attend the dinner tonight, and haven't filled in the menu yet, do so now
[09:08:45] <Florian> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dExlcTBGN2lyYzlJb1h3OEI4cXBicGc6MQ#gid=0
[09:08:46] <Kev> You know all this.
[09:08:56] <fritzy> ah, ok. Strange that the audio suddenly stopped working.
[09:09:01] <Kev> Is it back?
[09:09:05] <fritzy> no
[09:09:09] <bear> he's summarizing the areas people have mentioned to start getting working groups set up
[09:09:12] <fritzy> this'll be more useful in a smaller group setting anyway
[09:09:17] <Kev> I don't think I have any power to d osomething here.
[09:09:25] <fritzy> it's ok for now
[09:09:42] <fritzy> I'll just participate in the smaller groups as I can
[09:09:47] <Kev> OK.
[09:10:01] <bear> if something new is said I will try and repeat it hear
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[09:10:16] <bear> MEP, WebRTC, WebSockets and Bosh
[09:10:24] <bear> we know now that long polling is not the issue
[09:10:31] <Kev> Not the solution, rather.
[09:10:38] <bear> jim is redialing now
[09:10:43] <fritzy> well, now that we have something better
[09:10:45] <bear> err joe
[09:10:54] <fritzy> Geeze, Joe is a legend, and you get his name wrong?!
[09:10:55] <fritzy> ;)
[09:11:01] <bear> new keyboard
[09:11:03] <fritzy> I'll try too
[09:11:13] <Kev> bear: Keys all in different places?
[09:11:15] <bear> now he is talking about internationalization and mobile support
[09:11:26] <bear> kev: no - my thumbs are in new places
[09:11:32] <Kev> Ah. I hate it when that happens.
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[09:11:49] <bear> dave!
[09:11:56] <Dave Cridland> Mike!
[09:12:07] <bear> there is a webex setup
[09:12:09] <hildjj> ok, audio should be back?
[09:12:19] <Dave Cridland> Ah - where away webex?
[09:12:25] <fritzy> ok, I have audio now
[09:12:37] <hildjj> dwd: https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/e.php?AT=WMI&EventID=215959417&PW=ae8ea25b403f203f&RT=MiMxNDc%3D
[09:13:49] <fritzy> I'm good to stay up all night.
[09:13:56] <Kev> So I heard.
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[09:15:25] <winfried> current thoughts JSON object model
[09:16:08] *Dave Cridland adds the Webex URI the wiki
[09:17:35] <fritzy> wire protocol isn't necessary, but may be done in certain situations
[09:18:02] <stpeter> fritzy: let us know if you'd like to channel anything to the room for you
[09:18:15] *** stpeter changed the title to "http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_13 | https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/e.php?AT=WMI&EventID=215959417&PW=ae8ea25b403f203f&RT=MiMxNDc%3D"
[09:18:19] <fritzy> yeah, let me know when I have a chance to summarize my thoughts
[09:18:31] <stpeter> fritzy: will do
[09:18:53] <stpeter> fritzy: our audio is not so great here so we might need to repeat some of what you say here (or crank it up to 11!)
[09:19:08] <fritzy> erreven!
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[09:21:24] <fritzy> It's important to clarify that this is a subset of XMPP. It's not extensible, although we might have a XEP for passing generic JSON blobs.
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[09:26:54] <Dave Cridland> This webex thing is fun. All the power of Animated GIF.
[09:27:03] <Dave Cridland> Oh, and now buzzing instead of audio.
[09:27:04] <fritzy> Buzzzzzzzzzz
[09:27:19] <fritzy> oh, fixed
[09:27:19] <Dave Cridland> Unless you've all started monotonically humming?
[09:27:23] <hildjj> sorry, that was peter.
[09:27:23] <Dave Cridland> Ah, for me as well.
[09:27:24] <stpeter> sorry, was playing with the audio settings here
[09:27:40] <fritzy> Dave: are you not in the room then?
[09:27:48] <Dave Cridland> I'm in *a* room...
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[09:30:06] <stpeter> hold on!!!
[09:30:10] <stpeter> I hung up on you
[09:30:11] <darkrain> fritzy: We hung up on you (apparently)
[09:30:14] <fritzy> oops
[09:30:14] <Steffen Larsen> he he he
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[09:31:21] <stpeter> please hold :)
[09:31:39] <fritzy> what I was saying is that as far as what developers wants varies greatly
[09:31:46] <fritzy> the commonality is that they won't touch XML
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[09:31:52] <fritzy> because their XML tools have been so bad for so long
[09:32:24] <fritzy> and when they think about extensibility, they're thinking about sending their own blobs as payload
[09:32:46] <Steffen Larsen> but that does not sound extensible
[09:32:50] <Steffen Larsen> ;-)
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[09:33:53] <stpeter> we still need to get the audio working again
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[09:42:54] <fritzy> NO NOT REST
[09:43:09] <Dave Cridland> No REST for the wicked.
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[09:44:01] <fritzy> Not REST... we're not talking routing or verb translation.
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[09:46:16] <bear> sorry - rest is just my comfort area for web stuff
[09:46:20] <fritzy> There is some code. stanza.io
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[09:48:07] <stpeter> you're back
[09:48:10] <stpeter> on audio
[09:48:53] <Dave Cridland> I can't here any of this (aside from PSA).
[09:49:04] <Kev> He's the only person near the mic.
[09:49:09] <Dave Cridland> Right.
[09:49:16] <fritzy> Federation, security, etc.
[09:49:17] <darkrain> "Some people want presence+routing. Other people want pubsub."
[09:49:19] <Kev> Steffen was just saying that we can't solve all problems, but we can work out a common lib.
[09:49:32] <fritzy> presence, routing, rosters, identity.
[09:49:37] <stpeter> fritzy: right
[09:49:37] <Kev> common requirements, for an API>
[09:49:38] <Lance> basically: what can we provide to be better than socket.io
[09:49:40] <Steffen Larsen> fritzy: exactly
[09:49:42] <fritzy> and then pubsub
[09:49:55] <stpeter> fritzy: pubsub in 1.1 or whatever
[09:50:06] <stpeter> fritzy: or a more native pubsubby thing
[09:50:11] <fritzy> yeah
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[09:53:44] <fritzy> Right... strophe expects you to write and parse XML, and no other lib forces you to do that
[09:53:51] <stpeter> fritzy: yes
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[09:54:28] <fritzy> Strophe is mostly just a BOSH connection manager.
[09:54:32] <fritzy> It's simply not enough
[09:54:56] <stpeter> fritzy: yes
[09:54:59] <stpeter> that's right
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[09:55:56] <fritzy> and it's not even just about XML... we're expecting application developers to write the wire protocol.
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[09:59:19] <Dave Cridland> Right, they want to take some simple API, and throw a javascript object at some endpoint, and get one back.
[09:59:48] <fritzy> exactly
[10:00:09] <fritzy> now that's not to discount the people that want to do more, so I disagree with some of the things you were saying (that it should never be more than that)
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[10:00:54] <Dave Cridland> Yes and no. For things like MUC, I'm not sure if doing anything different on the wire is the right direction - I think a neat layer over STrophe is possibly the better chocie.
[10:01:19] <Dave Cridland> (Sorry, typing shot this morning).
[10:02:03] <fritzy> sure sure... an I agree. But we can kill two birds with one stone... we can make a JSON SDK that can /potentially/ be translated on the other side of the wire.
[10:02:34] <Dave Cridland> s/JSON/Javascript object and native feel/ and you're on.
[10:02:56] <Steffen Larsen> I still feel strange that we are talking about SDKs when we are doing protocols.. :-)
[10:03:20] <Dave Cridland> Because the SDK is what's visible, and that's what gains mindshare.
[10:03:31] <Steffen Larsen> Dave: I know..
[10:04:05] <Dave Cridland> With most of our protocol design, we talk about end-user (or end-entity) actions, then see how to translate them onto things on the wire. Here we're a layer down, is all.
[10:04:18] <fritzy> Well, that's why people love JSON... because it can be a Javascript object OR a serialized thing
[10:05:00] <ralphm> So apparently Buddycloud has its annual company outing
[10:05:30] <fritzy> so... is there anything going on in the room right now? cause we have no audio
[10:05:42] <Kev> fritzy: We're ascertaining interest in the topics.
[10:05:45] <Steffen Larsen> no talking about the different topics
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[10:07:24] <fritzy> I'll kill my video so you don't have to stare at me picking my nose then.
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[10:08:48] <Dave Cridland> I'll point my video at the dog.
[10:08:56] <Florian> lol
[10:09:30] <fritzy> your dog is licking itself, I think
[10:09:50] <Dave Cridland> He's having a scratch.
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[10:17:36] <Florian> we'll be back in 15mins
[10:17:58] <fritzy> k, what are the breakout groups?
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[10:18:13] <bear> we haven't decided yet
[10:18:14] <Dave Cridland> Oh, the dog's gone camera shy.
[10:18:20] <Florian> i'm going to Google+ them
[10:18:21] <bear> they are taking a bio brak
[10:18:38] <fritzy> oh, I thought that was what was being discussed. :)
[10:19:48] <Florian> the topics are on the G+ event
[10:20:06] <hildjj> i'm trying some other A/V options while we're taking a break.
[10:20:24] <fritzy> Florian yeah? I don't see an event...
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[10:22:51] <Zash> \o/
[10:23:52] <fritzy> w00t
[10:24:00] <fritzy> How've you been, Zash?
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[10:28:02] <fritzy> I'm making coffee and Dave is making tea.
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[10:28:31] <Florian> fritzy: sent you an invite to the event
[10:28:38] <Florian> anyone else not part of the XMPP Summit e ent?
[10:28:54] <Florian> I'm in G+ Party Mode streaming some pics there
[10:28:56] <Florian> topics are up
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[10:31:01] <Florian> https://plus.google.com/events/c7apt48oi63qoi07a6a5psaf8fc?authkey=CProyqyywtGFHw
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[10:35:51] <hildjj> For file transfer, look at XEPs: 95, 96, 65
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[10:38:45] <fritzy> for a good time, call Joe
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[10:42:15] <Zash> fritzy: Fine, thanks. I arrive. Except now we're out of coffee. I may have had something to do with that...
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[10:45:14] <bear> can you hear him?
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[10:45:32] <Zash> Kev: Tobias did implement -PLUS, but it has not been merged yet
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[10:46:56] <fritzy> bear: yes
[10:46:59] <fritzy> thanks guy
[10:47:00] <fritzy> s
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[10:54:24] <Florian> http://go.estos.de/chat/#0hgo7on5
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[10:57:04] <bear> lance - what is your jid? I just realized I don't have you in my roster
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[11:01:34] <Steffen Larsen> WebRTC and MUC: http://candy-chat.github.com/candy-webrtc/
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I solve practical problems."

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I solve practical problems."

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[11:18:47] <Dave Cridland> Alexey tried to make DIGEST-MD5 use saslprep, but as I recall is was a rathole.
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[11:19:30] <hildjj> dave: that's my recollection. the whole idea of having a separate *prep for SASL vs. your application protocol is a little wonky anyway.
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[11:22:00] <Dave Cridland> hildjj, Well, given that SASL authentication identifiers are already technically unrelated to the authorization identifiers from the protocol, maybe it makes some weird kind of sense.
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[11:25:26] <Dave Cridland> Not that I can really hear much of what's said, but Kurt Zeilenga's take here is that it makes sense to have multiple jids, one in ASCII and one not, and either have some mechanism to find out the real non-ASCII jid from the ASCII handle, or else have the server actually remember which jid alias to use for which contact.
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[11:25:43] <Zash> Did you just say 'jid alias'?
[11:26:08] <Dave Cridland> Zash, Yes, but actually in the sense I used it I mean jid equivalent.
[11:26:11] <Kev> Dave Cridland: Yes, but that's to solve a different problem.
[11:26:17] <Dave Cridland> Kev, Ah, OK.
[11:26:39] <Kev> Kurt's argument for having an ascii and a non-ascii is so you can put easy things on your business card or whatever.
[11:26:54] <Kev> Rather than suggesting that Japanese folks need to have an ASCII JID.
[11:26:56] <Dave Cridland> Kev, Right.
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[11:28:19] <Dave Cridland> Kev, But ISTR his general goal is remote canonicalization.
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[11:30:00] <ralphm> with something like punycode?
[11:30:02] <Dave Cridland> Where is the microphone? Because I now can't here Kev, even. Is it shielded by the laptop lids?
[11:30:17] <Kev> I'm just not shouting any more. I was making an effort TO PROJECT earlier.
[11:30:18] <ralphm> up front
[11:30:40] <Dave Cridland> Kev, You is becomin' an hack-toor?
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[11:31:56] <ralphm> Can you hear Kev now?
[11:32:11] <Dave Cridland> Very much so.
[11:32:27] <Dave Cridland> If he projects much more we can drop the webex, I think.
[11:32:48] <ralphm> he's presenting now
[11:32:52] <Dave Cridland> Of course, I can't see his diagram.
[11:33:05] <ralphm> better?
[11:33:18] <Dave Cridland> Yes. Though for a brief moment I could only see his crotch.
[11:33:23] <Zash> hah
[11:33:54] <darkrain> TMI
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[11:34:14] <Zash> What darkrain said
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[11:35:08] <darkrain> here's a muc, there's a muc. everyone muc muc
[11:35:36] <Lloyd> you beat me to that joke :)
[11:35:49] <darkrain> Great minds and all that.
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[11:35:55] <Dave Cridland> These two mucs count as one muc.
[11:36:06] <Zash> Did Kev say MUCeption?
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[11:37:05] <Zash> Everything needs more MAM!
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[11:40:36] <Dave Cridland> You can turn me round again now.
[11:40:49] <SimonTennant> Zash: +1
[11:40:51] <Dave Cridland> Ta.
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[11:42:16] <fritzy> End <- encryption -> End
[11:42:19] <fritzy> like that?
[11:42:23] <Dave Cridland> We have a discussion about e2e encryption every time, so should have one this time if only for tradition's sake.
[11:42:44] <Lance> can someone just tell us how to do it properly this time?
[11:42:48] <SimonTennant> Somewhat related to Federated MUC is the Zookeeper project ZAB: http://research.yahoo.com/files/ladis08.pdf
[11:43:14] <Dave Cridland> Lance, The encryption bit is easy, it's the authentication and key exchange bit that's so damn hard.
[11:43:17] <fritzy> did we lose audio?
[11:43:20] <fritzy> oh, there it is
[11:43:27] <Dave Cridland> fritzy, They lost speech.
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[11:43:43] <fritzy> I have a lot of opinions on xmpp as middleware
[11:43:52] <fritzy> ok, I just have one big one.
[11:43:57] <fritzy> Don't do it unless you're federating data.
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[11:44:30] <Dave Cridland> I think it also depends on where your middle is.
[11:44:38] <fritzy> xactly
[11:44:42] <Dave Cridland> XMPP does to the auth stuff pretty well.
[11:44:48] <Dave Cridland> does do.
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[11:45:04] <fritzy> right, but middleware is often network secured rather than identity authed
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[11:45:28] <Steffen Larsen> fritzy: no thats not always true..
[11:45:42] <fritzy> often, as I said
[11:45:45] <Steffen Larsen> :-)
[11:45:47] <Dave Cridland> Right, purely internal middleware is not interesting, but if your middleware is talking over the internet, say, that changes things whether federation is in play or not.
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[11:45:55] <fritzy> right
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[11:46:10] <fritzy> don't bother unless it's going over the public net
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[11:46:21] <Dave Cridland> I personally suspect that middleware is talking over mobile links and direct-to-browser a lot more than it used to.
[11:46:34] <fritzy> sure sure... clients are further out
[11:46:37] <Lance> dave: yes, it is
[11:46:57] <fritzy> social network: might wait for Simon tomorrow?
[11:47:01] <Zash> He's here
[11:47:02] <Kev> fritzy: He's here.
[11:47:19] <fritzy> oh
[11:47:39] <Dave Cridland> fritzy, I think he's that collection of eight pixels towards the end on the left.
[11:47:51] <fritzy> this cisco tech is really amazing
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[11:48:15] <Dave Cridland> It's like being in the room.
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[11:48:36] <Dave Cridland> In a parallel universe where you see in 8-bit games console graphics.
[11:48:46] <fritzy> yeah well, most of it is filled in by my imagination and remembering actually being in that room
[11:48:48] <Florian> haha
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[11:49:06] <Dave Cridland> Florian, You can't laugh, you weren't born when we had graphics this bad.
[11:49:09] <fritzy> it's like that dream where you can't see anyone's faces
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[11:52:35] <fritzy> this staying awake all night thing was easier when I was younger
[11:52:55] <fritzy> I think if we solve the web-integration problems, that the social network stuff will come
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[11:53:00] <fritzy> because the social network people will come
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[11:53:58] <Dave Cridland> fritzy, I think that's certainly a lot of it, yes.
[11:53:59] <hildjj> i'd be happy to shut the camera off if it's not helpful.
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[11:54:11] <fritzy> hildjj: what would we complain about then?! ;)
[11:54:12] <hildjj> there's no camera that could shoot this room.
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[11:54:28] <fritzy> it's helpful. Thanks Joe. Sorry for complaining
[11:54:29] <Lance> right. the problem right now is that it is too simple and easy to build a silo system, compared to integrating xmpp
[11:54:52] <hildjj> the lighting also sucks, which doesn't help.
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[11:55:42] <hildjj> it's like WebRTC, but with more angle brackets, and a bunch of namespace stuff you won't understand.
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[11:56:05] <Kev> But it's OK, we can show you how to copy/paste.
[11:56:08] <fritzy> right, we have a strong sense of identity
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[11:56:29] <fritzy> I repeat... if we solve the web integration problem, they'll come.
[11:56:31] <darkrain> There's an inherent "that XML stuff is scary; I've seen SOAP" attitude, perhaps
[11:56:34] <Dave Cridland> fritzy, Universal identity and addressability, no less.
[11:56:47] <hildjj> darkrain: yes. but i'm tired of fighting that battle.
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[11:57:01] <hildjj> partially because i agree with them. XML blows.
[11:57:09] <fritzy> it's a battle not worth fighting anymore.
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[11:57:15] <fritzy> time for an attitude change
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[11:57:36] <darkrain> I agree; just need to find a way to side-step it.
[11:57:48] <hildjj> right. i've been at least as much of a problem as anyone else for maintaining the status quo, and i'm trying to not be anymore.
[11:58:08] <fritzy> :)
[11:58:13] <SimonTennant> Cridland: "XMPP: Universal identity and addressability" sounds great.
[11:58:54] <hildjj> simon, i usually say "identity-based routing"
[11:58:59] <Steffen Larsen> id, presence and routing.. thats how I use it as middleware..
[11:59:02] <sekistner> What about scaling, how do you tackle bottlenecks in a federated system?
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[11:59:24] <hildjj> sekistner: it's always the other guys problem. :)
[11:59:29] <Dave Cridland> SimonTennant, Yeah, it's a bit sound-bite-y, but it's the basic thing - every entity in an XMPP network, from the user (or their account in abstract), and each connected client or server, are all given an addressable name.
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[11:59:40] <fritzy> sekistner: implementation problem... and implementations have solved it.
[12:00:07] <Dave Cridland> sekistner, I'm not sure I understand - when a system is highly federated, it tends to scale better (because other people take on more burden).
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[12:00:22] <fritzy> webrtc people.... GET OUT
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[12:00:31] <Steffen Larsen> get a room
[12:00:36] <hildjj> ok, i'm going to drop from webex. peter can crank the a/v back up.
[12:00:50] <fritzy> uhh.. ok
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[12:01:18] <sekistner> Not in the web usually. If twitter was federated a retweet from Justin bieber kills a small server.
[12:02:01] <Zash> That's why "web-scale" is a thing ;)
[12:02:10] <fritzy> ugh...
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[12:02:57] <fritzy> can you guys hear me?
[12:03:01] <Lance> nope
[12:03:03] <Steffen Larsen> no?
[12:03:16] <fritzy> so sad
[12:03:25] <Steffen Larsen> fritzy: your screaming?
[12:03:47] <fritzy> we're wailing
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[12:04:28] <fritzy> haha... thanks stpeter
[12:04:32] <darkrain> Zash: https://www.google.com/search?q=mongodb+is+webscale seems relevant
[12:04:35] <stpeter> video?
[12:04:56] <fritzy> stpeter: doesn't matter.. but if you could hear me, that'd be nice.
[12:05:06] <fritzy> chaos is good networking
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[12:05:33] <fritzy> websocket/bosh is a solved problem
[12:05:39] <stpeter> fritzy: right
[12:05:47] <Dave Cridland> A Chaosnet reference?
[12:05:51] <sekistner> Yeah you make fun of web developers and wonder why they ignore xmpp.
[12:06:00] <stpeter> :P
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[12:08:45] <fritzy> I'll be back in 20 min
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[12:12:54] <Florian> Whitepaper chat: http://piratepad.net/CROClrYlXo
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[12:15:33] <hildjj> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-daboo-aggregated-service-discovery
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[12:19:29] <Zash> no :(
[12:19:31] <Zash> Dave Cridland:
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[12:21:44] <Dave Cridland> So I can hear Peter really well, and the video's pretty good, but I can only hear Ralph if he faces the laptop and talks pretty clear.
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[12:22:12] <Dave Cridland> Argh! Giant hand!
[12:22:16] <Zash> HAha
[12:22:23] <darkrain> IT'S ALIVE
[12:22:32] <Zash> Dave: Better audio now?
[12:22:42] <Dave Cridland> Yes, that's good.
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[12:24:16] <fritzy> bakc
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[12:24:28] <hildjj> TINS: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0111.html
[12:24:43] <Dave Cridland> fritzy, We're talking pubsub.
[12:25:03] <Dave Cridland> fritzy, Well, they are. Strangely, the video's gone back to 8-bit mode.
[12:25:15] <fritzy> ok, thanks
[12:25:39] <Dave Cridland> This is a shame, because I can no longer read the whiteboard.
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[12:27:20] <Zash> Dave Cridland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qsWFFuYZYI
[12:27:56] <Dave Cridland> Oh. Suddenly, I can see PSA's desktop.
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[12:38:14] <stpeter> BACON!
[12:38:23] <Dave Cridland> Yeah, I heard Bacon...
[12:38:31] <stpeter> what do you think aboutmoving item retrieval to the extensions spec?
[12:38:35] <Dave Cridland> But I wasn't really paying attention.
[12:38:52] <Dave Cridland> OK, I'm all in favour of moving things out of XEP-0060.
[12:38:56] <fritzy> so we're slimming pubsub out?
[12:39:04] <Dave Cridland> I'm not in favour of moving them into another kitchen sink spec.
[12:39:27] <fritzy> we could do a "non-recording" version of pubsub
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[12:39:36] <fritzy> and then have a storage/retrieval extension
[12:39:43] <Zash> Is there a persistence feature?
[12:39:56] <fritzy> normally, yes... the idea might be to move that to its own extension
[12:40:03] <Dave Cridland> I've never been sure what "persistence" means in terms of pubsub, actually.
[12:40:20] <fritzy> items being retrievable
[12:40:30] <fritzy> beyond the initial notify message
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[12:40:50] <Dave Cridland> fritzy, No, I don't think so. I think that's controlled by max_items, not by persistence per se.
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[12:41:22] <Dave Cridland> SO not about node lifetime at all?
[12:41:23] <fritzy> sure.. but they're talking about max_items, and persistence and retrieval being on the side
[12:41:25] <fritzy> yeah
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[12:41:59] <Dave Cridland> RIght, I could go along with that.
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[12:42:22] <Zash> Right, http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub#persistent-items was the disco feature
[12:42:36] <Dave Cridland> FWIW, one thing I've seen from being engaged in sales calls about pubsub is that every single customer has a different set of requirements for a pubsub service, and there's too many possible variations.
[12:42:58] <hildjj> Everyone not in the A/V breakout, please ignore this:
[12:43:05] <hildjj> <message to='juliet@example.com'>
<sox xmlns='urn:xmpp:sip'>
INVITE sip:juliet@example.com SIP/2.0
Via: SIP/2.0/UDP soxcat.example.com;branch=z9hG4bKnashds8
Call-ID: a84b4c76e66710
CSeq: 314159 INVITE
Contact: <sip:alice@pc33.atlanta.com>
Content-Type: application/sdp
Content-Length: 147

v=0
o=UserA 2890844526 2890844526 IN IP4 here.com
s=Session SDP
c=IN IP4 pc33.atlanta.com
t=0 0
m=audio 49172 RTP/AVP 0
a=rtpmap:0 PCMU/8000
</sox>
</message>

[12:43:56] <Dave Cridland> hildjj, Tunnelling SIP inside XMPP verbatim?
[12:44:05] <hildjj> yes.
[12:44:12] <hildjj> SIP over XMPP: SoX
[12:44:13] <fippo> dave: you're not supposed to listen to this ;-)
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[12:45:02] <Dave Cridland> fippo, No, because it makes my brain hurt. I can (readily) go along with SDP tunelling; but throwing out Jingle entirely in favour of SIP doesn't strike me as a step forward.
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[13:01:38] <stpeter> Dave Cridland: SDP tunneling makes some sense for various reasons, including CUSAX clients (which we'll discuss tomorrow when Emil is here)
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[13:08:15] <Adrian Georgescu> Addressing for federated service

* http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3958
* http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-precis-nickname-05
* http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-daboo-aggregated-service-discovery-02

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[13:18:42] <ralphm> Kev: http://storify.com/kleinmatic/brewing-fresh-coffee-on-an-airplane-as-one-does
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[13:30:14] <bear> kev: can you create an email alias for howto@xmpp.org and have that go to me, winifred and florian ?
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[13:30:32] <Kev> Hrmph.
[13:30:36] <Kev> I've made it go to just you.
[13:30:36] <stpeter> will do :)
[13:30:42] <bear> *please*
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[13:30:55] *bear puts on his most innocent smile
[13:31:04] <Kev> Email for florian and winifred, please.
[13:31:09] <Kev> *Winfried
[13:31:15] <Florian> florian@florianjensen.com
[13:31:19] <winfried> winfried@tilanus.com
[13:31:27] <bear> yea, I know - as soon as I pressed enter I reliazed I spelled it wrong
[13:31:40] <bear> that's the american english way I guess
[13:31:48] <Lance> should have done a last message correction
[13:32:06] <Florian> Swift.im will live for another day :)
[13:32:14] <bear> hehe - yes, now that i'm running a real client
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[13:32:58] <stpeter> Kev: I'm screwing things up, ignore my changes to aliases
[13:33:06] <Kev> Peter - you're editing a file I'm alre...
[13:33:07] <Kev> Right.
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[13:33:34] <fritzy> looks good Ralph, Peter
[13:33:52] <Lance> +1 on the new organization
[13:34:07] <stpeter> fritzy: thanks
[13:34:11] <Lance> the spec 1 group maps very cleanly to things like redis pubsub and socket.io
[13:34:45] <fritzy> oh yeah, defintely just spreading it out
[13:35:14] <fritzy> oh... XEP 60.1, 60.2, 60.3
[13:35:24] <Zash> ha
[13:35:26] <Florian> :D
[13:35:27] <bear> XEP 0060a
[13:35:29] <Florian> haha
[13:35:33] <winfried> 0060bis
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[13:35:37] <Steffen Larsen> b,c,d,...
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[13:36:04] <fritzy> oh, can we reserve a block?
[13:36:11] <fritzy> I mean, what if we need more xep 60?
[13:36:17] <fritzy> ;)
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[13:38:08] <Lance> xep L60
[13:38:21] <fritzy> we could start naming them like cellphones
[13:38:28] <Dave Cridland> 'T'
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[13:39:41] <Kev> XEP-0060/255.255.255.0
[13:39:47] <Zash> Hahaha
[13:39:54] <Edwin Mons> XEP:60::1
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[13:40:43] <Dave Cridland> And add several others.
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[13:40:56] <stpeter> Kev: nice :)
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[13:42:32] <bear> sorry peter, did not realize he had started
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[13:42:49] <stpeter> bear: no worries :)
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[13:45:09] <Kev> http://howto.xmpp.org is live.
[13:45:17] <bear> thanks kev
[13:45:18] <stpeter> yay
[13:45:22] <Kev> Enn Pee.
[13:45:32] <Steffen Larsen> wuhu! :-)
[13:45:34] <Florian> LOL
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[13:45:54] <Florian> just watch sales skyrocket now :D
[13:45:54] <Dave Cridland> Subtle ad, there.
[13:45:59] <Zash> Kev: You forgot the HTML5 doctype!
[13:46:06] <winfried> kev: I should write a book myself!
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[13:46:44] <Kev> winfried: Sure, but ours should stay first in the list.
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[13:52:18] <stpeter> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-daboo-aggregated-service-discovery/
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[13:53:03] <stpeter> Abstract

This specification describes how clients can discover multiple
services to configure themselves with a minimum of user-provided
information, as short as possible sequence of queries and with a
minimum of overhead for administrators of the services.
[13:53:39] <Zash> stpeter: It's an RFC
[13:53:45] <stpeter> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-webfinger/
[13:53:53] <stpeter> Zash: what is an RFC?
[13:54:03] <Zash> I thougt it was
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[13:54:17] <stpeter> Zash: WebFinger is not an RFC yet
[13:54:27] <stpeter> it's in Working Group Last Call right now
[13:54:27] <Zash> or did I get that mixed up with that other similar thing
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[13:55:43] <Zash> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-simple-web-discovery-02
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[13:59:33] <Dave Cridland> The top half of this door really is interesting.
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[14:00:06] <fritzy> I.... am.... still... awake....
[14:00:08] <Edwin Mons> Kev: +1
[14:00:18] <Dave Cridland> Insitutional carpet. Nice.
[14:00:24] <bear> zombie fritzy
[14:00:33] <ralphm> fritzy: given you don't get any sleep now, couldn't you just as well come over?
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[14:00:51] <fritzy> naw, it was good that I stayed home
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[14:01:06] <Kev> But we miiiiiss youuuuu.
[14:01:13] <ralphm> aren't you mostly useless now there?
[14:01:36] <SimonTennant> Kev: yes (http://blog.silktide.com/2013/01/the-stupid-cookie-law-is-dead-at-last/)
[14:02:25] <Edwin Mons> Combined Community Codec Pack <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Community_Codec_Pack>;
[14:03:05] <Zash> :D
[14:03:27] <Zash> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-resnick-on-consensus-00 feels relevant
[14:03:40] <fritzy> oh I do!
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[14:04:09] <bear> kev - be nice to the 4AM brain of peter
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[14:07:41] <hildjj> that was "tanstaafl" or "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch"
[14:08:15] <Dave Cridland> An acronym from The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, I think. Though it could be Stranger In A Strange Land, now I think of it.
[14:08:29] <bear> Moon is a Harsh Mistress
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[14:09:33] <Dave Cridland> Shouldn't Peter refer to "Bad Actors" as "Waiters"?
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[14:14:51] <Zash> florob: mimiking!
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[14:15:41] <fritzy> I was in that conversation
[14:15:57] <fritzy> prosody implements everything
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[14:16:08] <bear> :)
[14:16:30] <Zash> Implement all the things!
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[14:21:18] <fritzy> ipv6... every client is a server!
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[14:23:15] <Edwin Mons> fritzy@[5222::0123:4567:89ab:cdef]
[14:23:35] <Zash> :D
[14:23:41] <darkrain> Yes! who needs DNS?
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[14:23:51] <Edwin Mons> Catchy EUI64s.
[14:23:54] <Lance> it works
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[14:24:26] <Florob> Zash, I think I might just have missed some conversation being half asleep
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[14:25:12] <Zash> Florob: Lots of peter@jabber.org
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[14:27:30] <fritzy> clap clap
[14:27:51] <Florob> Right, some testing/experience how well confusable mappings work against that would be interesting
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[14:28:00] <darkrain> Zash, Florob: How much of that is due to 6122 (and 3920(?)) discussing cherokee versions of 'stepeter'?
[14:28:28] <Zash> darkrain: My thougt also
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[14:44:14] <fritzy> time for me to get the kids ready for school
[14:44:18] <fritzy> see you guys tomorrow!
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[14:48:15] <Kev> GN.
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[14:59:22] <fippo> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ivov-mmusic-trickle-ice-00
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[15:15:33] <Steffen Larsen> http://developer.cisco.com/web/jabber-developer/get-started ?
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[15:17:14] <Florob> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-miller-xmpp-e2e-03
[15:17:25] <m&m> that's for end-to-end
[15:17:32] <Zash> I like DNA / DANE
[15:18:20] <m&m> The DNA framework: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-saintandre-xmpp-dna-00
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[15:18:53] <m&m> DNSSEC/DANE: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-miller-xmpp-dnssec-prooftype-03
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[15:19:16] <m&m> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-miller-xmpp-posh-prooftype-01
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[15:21:10] <Zash> This bit about if the SRV is DNSSEC-secured, allow the target name in the certificate. I have a patch for this for prosody.
[15:21:17] <m&m> cool!
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[17:27:06] *** Steffen Larsen shows as "online"
[17:27:09] *** Zash has joined the room
[17:27:09] *** Zash shows as "online"
[17:27:51] *** SimonTennant shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:28:44] *** Edwin Mons has left the room
[17:29:11] *** Steffen Larsen has left the room
[17:29:31] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[17:29:31] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[17:30:33] *** SimonTennant shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:30:33] *** SimonTennant shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:31:19] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[17:31:19] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[17:32:03] *** winfried has left the room
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[17:34:02] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:35:15] *** SimonTennant has left the room
[17:43:54] *** Saúl has left the room
[17:46:25] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[17:48:53] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:49:00] *** abmargb has left the room
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[17:58:27] *** m&m shows as "online"
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[18:17:17] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:27:17] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:55:04] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[19:38:04] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:44:34] *** m&m shows as "online"
[19:47:08] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:57:08] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:20:38] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[20:34:58] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:53:26] *** m&m shows as "online"
[21:07:29] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[21:13:18] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:23:18] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:23:50] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[21:30:42] *** m&m shows as "online"
[21:40:12] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:50:12] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:32:16] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:02:03] *** Lance has joined the room
[23:02:04] *** Lance shows as "online"
[23:02:22] *** Saúl has joined the room
[23:07:07] *** SimonTennant has joined the room
[23:07:07] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
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[23:07:16] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:07:25] *** SimonTennant has left the room
[23:07:26] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:07:26] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:07:50] *** abmargb has joined the room
[23:08:21] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:10:31] *** SimonTennant shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:10:31] *** SimonTennant shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:10:57] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:10:57] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:11:23] *** Saúl has left the room
[23:12:07] *** SimonTennant shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:12:07] *** SimonTennant shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:12:15] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:12:15] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:13:00] *** winfried has joined the room
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[23:13:12] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:13:13] *** bear shows as "online"
[23:13:25] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:16:07] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:18:28] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:23:12] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:23:30] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:26:05] *** darkrain has joined the room
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[23:33:17] *** SimonTennant shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:33:17] *** SimonTennant shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:33:30] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:33:30] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:33:37] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:34:30] *** SimonTennant shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:34:30] *** SimonTennant shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:36:31] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:36:31] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:38:41] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:39:23] *** m&m has left the room
[23:41:26] *** Zash has joined the room
[23:41:27] *** Zash shows as "online"
[23:41:31] *** Florian has joined the room
[23:43:43] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:48:47] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:50:00] *** winfried has left the room
[23:50:37] *** winfried has joined the room
[23:53:50] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:54:09] *** SimonTennant has left the room
[23:55:14] *** SimonTennant has joined the room
[23:55:14] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:55:30] *** Lance has left the room
[23:56:51] *** bear has left the room
[23:59:07] *** SimonTennant shows as "online"
[23:59:43] *** darkrain shows as "away"