Friday, January 31, 2014
summit@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Summit discussion

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[08:57:50] <Simon> Kev: speaking of mobile problems, this popped up today - http://op-co.de/blog/posts/mobile_xmpp_in_2014/
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[08:58:33] <albert> Ge0rG is in this muc for first-hand discussion about it.
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[08:59:30] *Simon waves
[08:59:45] <Simon> obligatory hn comment feed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7151857
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[09:04:52] <Ge0rG> Simon: I'm at the summit as of right now as well
[09:05:10] <Ge0rG> Simon: so feel free to beat me up for that article ;)
[09:05:19] <Simon> can you wave
[09:06:16] <Ge0rG> Simon: *waves*
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[09:10:40] <Ge0rG> Simon: https://github.com/pfleidi/yaxim
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[09:32:28] <bear> does anyone have any questions for lance?
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[09:32:57] <winfried> yes
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[09:48:59] <Steffen Larsen> lances presentation: https://cloudup.com/c223kt48cGZ
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[10:50:35] *** winfried shows as "online" and his status message is "At XMPP summit 15 day 2!!!!!!!!!!"
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[10:53:46] <hildjj> pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05]
uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com>
[10:54:13] <hildjj> pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05]
Key fingerprint = 6BE0 0277 A430 7746 4A6D 6DE6 F60D 4C90 344F 5334
uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com>
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[10:54:55] <Ge0rG> CACert assurance possible as well, bring the forms
[10:55:15] <ralphm> pub 4096R/4AB71678 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20] Key fingerprint = D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42uid Ralph Meijer (ralphm) <ralphm@ik.nu>uid Ralph Meijer <ralphm@twistedmatrix.com>uid [jpeg image of size 3190]sub 4096R/7DD82E0E 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20]
[10:55:47] *** Michal Piotrowski shows as "online"
[10:56:27] <Lance> gpg: using PGP trust model
pub 4096R/FF26588F 2013-01-29
Key fingerprint = FB17 A8E1 C688 B1D5 3D8B E2DE 2C2D 68CD FF26 588F
uid Lance Stout <lance@lance.im>
uid Lance Stout <lancestout@gmail.com>
sub 4096R/D6F6160E 2013-01-29
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[10:59:01] *** paulwitty shows as "online"
[10:59:01] <ralphm> pub 4096R/4AB71678 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20] Key fingerprint = D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42A 4AB7 1678uid Ralph Meijer (ralphm) <ralphm@ik.nu>uid Ralph Meijer <ralphm@twistedmatrix.com>uid [jpeg image of size 3190]sub 4096R/7DD82E0E 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20]
[10:59:25] <intosi> pub 4096R/E623BFD2 2013-01-28 [expires: 2018-01-01]
Key fingerprint = 62C4 81BC C19D DAF9 B776 6F07 BA29 DCD9 E623 BFD2
uid Edwin Mons <e@ik.nu>
uid Edwin Mons <edwin@mons.net>
uid Edwin Mons <jsf@edwinm.ik.nu>
sub 4096R/3D0CCDD9 2013-01-28 [expires: 2018-01-01]
sub 2048D/CDD7BADF 2013-01-29 [expires: 2018-01-01]
[10:59:41] *** Steffen Larsen shows as "online"
[11:00:07] <bear> GPG Key 4096R/8EE5B4D8 0A93 9BA7 8203 FCBC 58A9 E8B5 9D1E 0661 8EE5 B4D8
uid's: Mike Taylor (bear) <bear@bear.im>, <bear@andyet.net>,
GnuPG Key ID (DSA, 1024bit): Georg Lukas <georg@op-co.de> - 0x962FD2D
Fingerprint: CE57 348B 6A53 7B58 6ADF 991D B334 D308 962F D2DE

Winfried Tilanus 4096R/62D66B3D 1292 1E01 F404 9F0B 04A3 489C 6E62 0C65 62D6 6B3D
Kevin Smith 4096R/2081A380 1431 FBAC 8E49 AA68 5542 20DA 6DAF E1C1 2081 A380
Edwin Mons 4096R/E623BFD2 62C4 81BC C19D DAF9 B776 6F07 BA29 DCD9 E623 BFD2
Ralph Meijer 4096R/4AB71678 D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42A 4AB7 1678
Remko Tronçon 8192R/3F4B0D61 E00B 5436 4600 75B9 05D1 C7BE F01E 29A2 3F4B 0D61
pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05]
uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com> hildjj @ 5:51

pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05]
Key fingerprint = 6BE0 0277 A430 7746 4A6D 6DE6 F60D 4C90 344F 5334
uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com>

pub 4096R/FF26588F 2013-01-29
Key fingerprint = FB17 A8E1 C688 B1D5 3D8B E2DE 2C2D 68CD FF26 588F
uid Lance Stout <lance@lance.im>
uid Lance Stout <lancestout@gmail.com>
sub 4096R/D6F6160E 2013-01-29 Lance @ 5:54
pub 4096R/4AB71678 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20] Key fingerprint = D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42A 4AB7 1678uid Ralph Meijer (ralphm) <ralphm@ik.nu>uid Ralph Meijer <ralphm@twistedmatrix.com>
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[11:13:06] <awclinford> were there any actions taken following the push discussion?
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[11:13:55] <Kev> Not yet.
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[11:21:03] <Tobias> while you're together in a room you could also gather opinions on XMPP Compliance Suite 201x
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[11:21:57] <Kev> Noted, thank you.
[11:21:59] <hildjj> awclinford: bear took good notes
[11:22:11] <hildjj> we need to assign an action item to write a push XEP
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[11:22:36] <Kev> hildjj: I put that on the board.
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[11:22:51] <Lance> I'll take that one on hildjj. Already have been working on one
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[11:23:28] <hildjj> Lance: awesome.
[11:23:43] <Zash> Yay Lance
[11:23:49] <hildjj> I'll sign up to review it, and get some folks on the Cisco Jabber team to look at it.
[11:23:57] <winfried> Lance rocks!
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[11:24:34] <awclinford> i’ll keep my eyes peeled for it Lance. we’ll put an implementation together and feedback to the group
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[11:30:41] <Ge0rG> is it still possible to extend the agenda? a) client-to-client (end-to-end) encryption of realtime media and file transfers; b) a normative/informative XEP to specify client priority according to user state and presence, to support message routing with multiple online resources
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[11:31:44] <paulwitty> I think we all pretty much agreed on DTLS-SRTP for encryption within Jingle sessions yesterday
[11:32:05] <paulwitty> with some debate about making it required
[11:32:13] <Zash> What about file transfers over TCP / Proxy65
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[11:32:33] <paulwitty> favoured using the WebRTC style data channel of SCTP over DTLS
[11:32:38] <Zash> Ge0rG: http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/multiple-clients.html
[11:32:49] <Zash> Ge0rG: Poke Kev about it :)
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[11:33:20] <Ge0rG> paulwitty: sorry, wasn't able to attend yesterday. DTLS-SRTP solves UDP-based streaming. what about TCP connections?
[11:33:29] <paulwitty> no TCP connections
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[11:33:47] <paulwitty> use Jingle to set up file transfers, use SCTP to give reliability over the UDP
[11:34:13] <paulwitty> and maybe deprecate all other forms of file transfer
[11:34:16] <Ge0rG> what about sharing files with a MUC?
[11:34:45] <Ge0rG> paulwitty: we are talking about SCTP, the transport-layer protocol which nobody yet implements?
[11:34:59] <paulwitty> doing that in user space, yes
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[11:35:09] <paulwitty> because it looks like that's the direction WebRTC is going
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[11:35:59] <Ge0rG> maybe WebRTC is not quite the right approach for us. it's not like all XMPP client developers have the same resources available to them like Mozilla or Google....
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[11:38:19] <paulwitty> is there anything which will work well through all network topologies, is secure, and is easy to implement?
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[11:38:47] <winfried> paulwitty: that looks like the holy grail to me...
[11:39:05] <Ge0rG> HTTP upload of encrypted files to a data storage server maybe
[11:39:16] <Zash> THE CLOUD!!!
[11:39:17] <hildjj> WebDAV-like things + e2e, for some value of "secure" that doesn't include server-side virus checking
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[11:40:27] <Ge0rG> paulwitty: implementing a transport-layer protocol on top of an application-layer encryption protocol on top of UDP just looks like crazyness to me. I wouldn't be surprised if JSON is used in the negotiation process
[11:40:53] <Zash> !summon dwd
[11:40:59] <Zash> Think of the layers!
[11:41:02] <hildjj> Ge0rG: the right place to discuss that is at the rtcweb wg at the IETF
[11:41:10] <paulwitty> the argument is that people who have done Jingle will at least have done the ICE and DTLS layers
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[11:41:16] <fippo> ge0rg: javascript session establishment protocol? :-)
[11:42:16] <Ge0rG> paulwitty: as I said, it covers voip/video rather well, but it is strange, to say the least, for file sharing
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[11:44:52] <Ge0rG> hildjj: I think I forgot to check your ID for keysigning. Maybe you can show it to me (again) before lunch?
[11:45:04] <hildjj> sure.
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[13:08:56] <MattJ> For now
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[13:09:48] <Dave Cridland> Well, quite.
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[13:41:40] <Simon> protocol.buddycloud.com / code: https://github.com/buddycloud/buddycloud-tests-framework
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[13:44:20] <winfried> websockets
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[13:45:35] <lloyd.watkin> Based on helping Simon with building the buddycloud XEP I've thrown this together, https://github.com/lloydwatkin/xep-builder , as a helper for building/writing XEPs. Would people find it useful? If not I'll consign it to the dustbin of code.
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[13:46:50] <bear> apologies if my take on compliance suite and/or testing irked anyone
[13:47:20] *Simon never noticed irk
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[13:48:12] <bear> I am approaching the end of my energy so I tend to be grumpy or combative
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[13:48:50] <Philip Roberts> @bear putting in a vote for "you're fine, relax" :)
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[13:48:59] <bear> :)
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[14:04:59] <lloyd.watkin> for Lance https://github.com/remko/xeps
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[14:07:38] <hildjj> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-websocket-00
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[14:28:04] <Ash> Does push and not-sift solve all the currently outstanding mobile issues? Simon?
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[14:30:59] <Zash> not-sift?
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[14:32:17] <Tobias> what makes SIFT or something sift-like superflous?
[14:32:54] <paulwitty> not-sift is like sift
[14:33:03] <paulwitty> but without the bits that Dave Cridland objects to
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[14:33:39] <Zash> So it's like a protocol where you send all your stanzas to Dave Cridland, who inspects and drops them if they are not to be forwarded to you?
[14:33:43] <Tobias> as I'm not in the room and don't know what dave objected so i should wait until some minutes or summery comes out
[14:33:54] <paulwitty> I believe Dave is going to do a new version
[14:33:59] <paulwitty> without the bits he dislikes
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[14:35:03] <Ash> A bit like Mechanical Turk, but more Mechanical Dave
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[14:38:59] <winfried> Anyone in for a vegetarian buffet tonight? Tripadvisor has a good rated place quite close to the hotel, but we best make reservations for it...
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[14:39:12] <Dave Cridland> not-sift is like sift but without the XPath.
[14:39:34] <zeank> winfried: link!
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[14:39:59] <winfried> http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g188644-d694665-Reviews-Dolma-Brussels.html
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[14:41:23] <zeank> :)
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[14:43:41] <bear> i've learned two things today that I should have already have known - cool
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[14:44:41] <Tobias> Dave Cridland, ahh..yeah...full XPath might be a bit overkill...and introduce unneeded attack surfaces
[14:45:03] <Zash> wait, XPath?!
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[14:45:46] <Dave Cridland> Or XQuery, or whatever was there.
[14:46:00] <Dave Cridland> Mainly because I don't want to have to implement that.
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[14:46:54] <Zash> Doesn't look like it does more than mention XPath
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[14:51:05] <bear> can someone give me a summary of what was just decided regarding file transfer
[14:51:16] <bear> so I can add it to the meeting notes
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[14:51:53] <Kev> Simon will write up what BC does. We will probably https host files. We might upload with https or with the sctp-dtls stuff that we will be using for 1:1FT.
[14:51:59] <Simon> summary: I'll write up a quick how the buddycloud-media server works and share it. If it's useful, I'm happy to extend and do more work.
[14:52:04] <bear> thanks!
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[15:00:40] <winfried> at the portland summit there was a nice presentation on xmpp on the web security does anybody still have a link to those slides...
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[15:03:01] <MattJ> winfried, that was waqas - I'll ask him
[15:03:23] <bear> +32 48 351 2062 <-- my belgium phone #
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[15:03:56] <Ash> Zash: Yeah - after actually reading the sift spec, it actually looks fairly close to what I thought was being proposed so I am now slightly confused
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[15:04:33] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: I've got nebuk, who wrote the MUC code, into the yaxim MUC. feel free to come back for discussing further merge attempts
[15:04:39] <winfried> Mattj thank you, am considering to something with XMPP on the web security on the Real Time Lounge, but his presentation should be included in that!
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[15:11:19] <Ge0rG> so, what's next for today?
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[15:12:04] <MattJ> Ge0rG, people will probably head back to the hotel to drop their stuff there, and then collect in the lobby to discuss
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[16:36:29] <Ge0rG> Dave looks like he's missing XEP-0198 :>
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[16:40:08] <MattJ> Ge0rG, so you're at the hotel?
[16:40:30] <Ge0rG> MattJ: correct. will come to the lobby in 15min
[16:41:04] <MattJ> Ge0rG, ok - dinner plans are forming
[16:41:16] <Zash> Someone, have a Hoegaarden!
[16:41:31] <paulwitty> is it happy hour again?
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[16:41:46] <MattJ> paulwitty, in 20min
[16:41:55] <Ge0rG> MattJ: I'm open for anything non-vegetarian
[16:42:04] <MattJ> Ge0rG, you're not vegetarian by chance? :)
[16:42:06] <MattJ> :D
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[16:42:27] <Ge0rG> MattJ: I'm antivegetarian by intention
[16:42:47] <MattJ> Then it sounds like you'll want to squeeze into the group going to "the rib place"
[16:43:01] <Zash> The Meating?
[16:43:04] <Ge0rG> MattJ: +1
[16:43:28] <Zash> Ge0rG: Join The Meating, you won't regret it.
[16:43:38] <paulwitty> I'm strangely tempted by the vegetarian place after the ribs yesterday
[16:43:42] <MattJ> I'm probably not going to be in that group, but never mind
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[16:44:07] <Zash> MattJ: But, bacon the size of your head!
[16:44:32] <Ge0rG> MattJ: if you convince Lance to follow you, I'm in for an antivegetarianism exception
[16:44:49] <MattJ> No, we're just discussing
[16:44:49] <Ge0rG> except if there are baked otters
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[16:45:08] <MattJ> Apparently he has never been to "The Meating" tradition, so he'll go there tonight
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[16:45:45] <Ge0rG> I have no idea about this "meating" thing. Is that what bear told about earlier, referencing a loud crowd?
[16:46:05] <MattJ> Yes
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[16:46:23] <MattJ> It's a relatively small place, and XMPP folk dominate it when they go
[16:46:27] <Ge0rG> I'm actually more into some calm place... which is probably a challenge on friday night in a large metropole
[16:46:36] <MattJ> Before FOSDEM especially
[16:46:39] <Ge0rG> but then... XMPP folks
[16:46:42] <MattJ> It's the FOSDEM beer night
[16:46:56] <Zash> Ge0rG: FWIW, it's pretty baren other weekends.
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[16:47:30] <zeank> Ge0rG: we're going for a vegetarian place, wanna join?
[16:47:56] <MattJ> Florob is undecided
[16:48:00] <Zash> Most EU-people go home over the weekends, so at least near all the EU buildings it's usually pretty empty
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[16:49:19] <Ge0rG> my preferences in order of importance: 1. company, 2. meat, 3. calm place
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[16:49:41] <MattJ> The vegetarian one will probably hit both 2 & 3
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[16:50:03] <zeank> meat at a vegetarian place? I'd doubt it.
[16:50:16] <zeank> but calm, why not?
[16:50:17] <Kev> I have yet to meat this trip, so if there's the option of going there with some group, it's appealing to me.
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[16:50:27] <Kev> zeank: Matt has interesting definitions of 'vegetarian'.
[16:50:48] <zeank> maybe, yeah
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[16:52:01] <Kev> Are there meat plans tonight that I can potentially crash?
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[16:52:35] <Ge0rG> ok ok, I'm coming down to the lobby now
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[16:55:11] <MattJ> Kev, I overheard 5 minutes ago "Kev will be going to the rib place"
[16:55:20] <Kev> Ahhar.
[16:55:28] <Kev> You folks are in the bar? I'll head down :)
[16:56:09] <MattJ> Yep
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[19:51:04] <Kev> I am back, ribless but full. If anyone wants to share their FOSDEM plans at some point before tomorrow, yay :)
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[21:16:42] <Kev> Anyone with breakfast plans for tomorrow?
[21:17:11] <paulwitty> Do we have breakfast at the hotel tomorrow included?
[21:17:16] <waqas> Yes, but not in Belgium :)
[21:18:14] <Kev> paulwitty: As far as I know!
[21:18:31] <paulwitty> the email from Aloft was marginally ambigious
[21:18:40] <Kev> I didn't read it.
[21:19:24] <paulwitty> January 29, 2014 - January 30, 2014
Rate Plan: Group Business XMPP
BUFFET BREAKFAST Per Person/per Night
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[21:23:11] <paulwitty> With no mention of other nights
[21:24:32] <Kev> I see what you mean.
[21:24:44] <Kev> When we checked in, they just said breakfast was included - not that it was included some nights.
[21:24:47] <Kev> So I assume it's fine.
[21:25:02] <paulwitty> I'm certainly going to try for it
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[21:32:53] <Kev> I'm tempted to unset my alarm and see what happens.
[21:33:14] <Kev> And make FOSDEM plans when I get up, in the absence of knowing what others' plans are.
[21:33:29] <Kev> GN
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[22:09:04] <jabberjocke> I would like to go early to setup lounge
[22:10:43] <jabberjocke> Is there any plans on large cab from hotel?
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[22:37:59] <jabberjocke> I'm planning to book a large cab from hotel to fosdem at 09 is that to early? would there be anybody in the lounge area by 9.30?
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[23:11:28] <Simon> Jabberjocke. I was planning on leaving about 9:45
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[23:12:08] <Simon> xnyhps: sorry to have missed you at Summit. Would have been nice to meet up.
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[23:22:13] <albert> But xnyhps wasn't there, was he?
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[23:27:14] <Simon> albert - I was, he wasn't.
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[23:58:23] <jabberjocke> Ralphm when are you going?
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