XMPP Summit - 2018-02-01

Off I go, on my way to brussels :)

As am I! See you in a bit!

Awesome, one of my trains got cancelled.

Up to this point I was lucky

Toi toi toi

New ETA is 10:00, but then I still need to travel from Brussel North station to Cisco

Guus: same here. My train from cologne to brussels is 30 mins late

Looking at the timings for the Brussels trains this morning, I think we'd be best off leaving the Thon at about 08:30, grabbing the metro to Centraal, and going from there to Diegem on the 09:04, which'd get us to the office at about 09:30. Other options get us to the office very close to 10:00, and don't give us scope for the train delays and cancellations we've seen in previous years.

Sounds reasonable

The 09:31 from Schuman sounds lovely, but if that's cancelled we're stuck for another hour and don't get to Cisco until 11:00.

Right. Heading down for breakfast :)

Ooh, two of my trains got cancelled. This is going to be interesting.

I'm on the road again (or on the rails to be more precise)

Kev i'm going with you. Where do we meet at the hotel?

Did my message was really copied 4 times or is my app only?

I got two distinct messages from you in this MUC, michalwski

Same here, michalwski

I'm going to try and get off the train in Mechelen, and grab a cab to Cisco. Might just make it in time, if traffic isn't to bad.

Assuming that traffic is not bad in Brussels is not unlike assuming snowfall in hell, but hey, I'm an optimist.

good morning dear summiteers

Hello dear jonasw

so, I don’t know how these things usually work, but it’d be great to have agenda announced here, if there is such a thing like an agenda ✏

even if A/V is available, I won’t be able to pay attention the whole day, but XMPP 2.0 would be very interesting for me and I’d like to "tune in"

jonasw: well create the agenda during the first few minutes of the meeting

cool :) ✏

I'll share the a/v details on the wiki now

If I can, from mobile... Give me a sec

share them here and I’ll put them on the wiki?

Join the meeting from https://acecloud.webex.com Thursday, February 1, 2018 8:45 am | 10 hrs Meeting number (access code): 202 512 989 Meeting password: jsf2S8P9 Friday, February 2, 2018 8:45 am | 10 hrs Meeting number (access code): 208 941 793 Meeting password: M8nR97ws

shall I put that on the wiki?

Yes please

I will send the host key to Kev in private. Ralph should also have it.

are those timestamps UTC?

I assume they are local time

hm, early

Guus, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22#A.2FV

oh, I’ll put the URL to the webex thing too

Thanks. I'd make it part of the "remote participation" section, just to be clear.

We have arrived at Cisco.

Guus, it is, it’s a subsection

Ah, that didn't render well on mobile. Thanks jonasw. I've also posted it on the summit mailinglist.

ralphm: everything in order there?

We're still in the parking lot

Guus: do you have an ETA for the Summit start?

Going in soonish

I'll get off this last train in a few moments. Hope to be there around 10.

Ge0rG: 10.

I was kindly asked to present XMPP2 in an earlyish slot, and I have some real-work appointments to route around it

CET

so -30mins

Yup

hm

that’s uncool timing for me. sounds like XMPP2 will run into my lunch break :)

but whatever

should’ve been there :)

MattJ: ping?

On our way sorry... my brother being slow 😭

ralphm: mind having a stab at setting up the remote participation?

this sounds like a fun get-together already, I think I’ll have to join next year.

jonasw: you should!

So far the jokes are pretty bad ;)

SaltyBones, sounds great

"The meeting you are trying to join is not currently in progress."

That's entirely correct.

Yeah, we have some bootstrapping issues

Bah. Apologies. I'm inbound, 10 minutes out.

I just drove past cisco with my train :D

But I'll arrive at midi soon

We'll arrive around 10:15

I'm there.

Hm i missed the train because the ticket machine didnt work :( will be there in 40 minutes

vanitasvitae: Does your train have a flight number?

S2 3659

So, are issues sorting out, slowly?

I am at the airport too

Ge0rG, slowly

Finally on the last train :)

Ok. New webex stuff: https://acecloud.webex.com/ Meeting number: 155 347 963 Meeting password: XMPP$$123

ralphm, will you update the wiki page?

"Invalid number or room ID. Try again." ralphm

(while the meeting numbers from the wiki get me to "not in progress")

I’m heading out now though

oh, let me check the url then

https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=mfc24e0ece7aead2f2d38ecb8f88fd94f

Try that

Holger: improvisation

Ge0rG, ^

I might go back to piano at he airport unless you are closer to the exit

I'm right at the piano.

so wait 2-3 minutes for me

Will do! 👍

You have to negotiate a secret symbol

Holger: security doesn't allow me to go back to piano

go up the stairs and I am behind security gate

in way to exit

Ah ok, I'm on the way.

Was it the first building or the second?

So I'm in the WebEx now. What's the topic? :>

disco items caching

Awesome. We need that.

The video just degraded into a surrealistic aquarel painting.

The initial idea is to put the hash of the item list into a XEP-0004 form that becomes part of the disco info response that can be cached like normal with CAPS

Merkle-Caps.

Which is much of the discussion at the moment - how deep is the Merkle-Caps-tree.

Ge0rG, are you ready?

can you hear me

no

now

ralphm: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf

did you receive a wifi password?

I fear I havent

Nobody has. You'll have to pay attention instead. It's a disaster.

D:

Public transport is great fun.

Since you're using XMPP, you can use multiple transports, though.

hi

dwd: 😛

We're walking!

Is there anything happening at the moment ? The WebEx link tells me "The meeting is not in progress"

do you have the latest link?

mathieui: I've used the one on the wiki

webex is up and Ge0rG is talking

hum so I guess I don't have the right link

10:41:41 ralphm> Ok. New webex stuff: https://acecloud.webex.com/ Meeting number: 155 347 963 Meeting password: XMPP$$123

OK thanks

updating the wiki would be a good idea

Invalid number or room ID. Try again.

ralphm: I'm getting Invalid number with those credentials (and there is no password requested)

goffi, have you tried https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=mfc24e0ece7aead2f2d38ecb8f88fd94f ?

XMPP Summit 22 Brussels | https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22 | WebEx: https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=mfc24e0ece7aead2f2d38ecb8f88fd94f

Tobias: no, but nobody gave me this link I think

please try it then :)

right, I didn’t read enough

Tobias: working, thanks

you're welcome

I have video but not sound, checking if it's coming from my side

OK it's good now

goffi, we hear you

could you silence you're mic

thanks

sorry :)

Ge0rG, we lost you

"The list up there" is:

* Presence Sorting / per resource

* Message routing

* Stable IDs

* Read state

* History / Inbox

* Metadata

* Rooms

* Impromptu

* Notifications

* Fast Connections

* BIND2

* SASL2

* Disco caching

* Non IM

* Low prio

intosi: you urgently need to update to a multi-line capable client :P

It can do multi-line

I just couldn't be bothered

re "Carbons needs to go away": we still need it as a transport to deliver sent-copies of outgoing messages to our other client

who’s speaking by the way? I guess it’s Kev.

It's Kev.

Sounds like

Guus speaking now.

does that video-zooms-in-on-some-speaker thing happen automatically :-O

Is there video?

It does.

jonasw: it's supposed to.

There are a bunch of cameras in this room, and a lot of Dark Magic™ happens.

I bet

and this is why I'm seeing the same position for an hour now.

Hm, works in Chromium but not Firefox :|

yeah, I guessed that firefox will be icky so I went with chromium right away

The password is "XMPP Summit"

and then there was silence

*crickets*

/nick tumbleweed

someone is stealing a chair!

Hopefully not the meeting chair.

hah

I wondered about 100% CPU load, but then realized it's Chromium for the WebEx

same here, while on Firefox it was fine

not sure if video worth it

well maybe not, Firefox is high too when switching back to it, weird it was fine before

can somebody ping this room when it's starting again ? I've stopped webex for now

+1 ^

+1

People seem to be falling back in

do we maybe wanna make a soundcheck for the remote people? I have no idea if my audio is okay-ish configured

Ge0rG was LOUD compared to the people in the room

yeah

thanks Zash

Vaulor: hey, I told him ☺️

is this webex thing using some kind of XMPP ?

Zash: sorry, I started out silent and tuned my microphone to 11

what’s the topic?

I lack context

Nothing formal - half of everyone is still at lunch

sounds like something technical DNSy

jabber.org has had DNS issues for a while

while we’re at it, can we somehow increase volume of the microphone in that room?

When ralphm gets back, perhaps

ahk. I don’t know faces. I saw sams badge and I recognize guus, I guess who’s holger, but otherwise I’ve got no idea :)

I have a video in small on the right, and the passed presentation in big in the center. Is there any way to move video to main video ? I don't seen anything in UI to do that.

goffi, the separator between them can be dragged

oh right thanks, could hardly see it

oooooooh, I wondered about that as well

yah

I also only found that by accident

Is someone note-taking?

yes, jc

go jc!

Thanks jc!

No, don't go! Keep taking notes!

well

> I guess who’s holger Was still at lunch when you wrote that though 🙂

You're welcome, I'll upload once I have internet in the laptop

who was phone^W Holger

Holger, true, but I think I recognized you when you came in late

I didn’t mean to say that you were there when I wrote that

Pretty exciting. Everyone's getting WiFi.

is is a surprise test ?

is it*

you have 2 hours

They block XMPP!!!!

Typical corporate firewall?

what?

seriously?

at Cisco?

I cant connect to any of my servers

jonasw: Right, "came in late" sounds like me.

Internet works fine though

Holger, like in the Berlin XMPP meetup? :~)

Ge0rG, jonasw, goffi, wegre starting

But I'm in the same group then

l'll stick with 4G. We're starting again, by the way.

vanitasvitae, also they don’t block XMPP

mathieui, thanks, I’m already in

I remember last year I worked around it by connecting through a vpn

mathieui: thx

it’s fine on 443 :p

winfried

we're starting again

Ah that might be

yes?

winfried, meeting’s resuming

(y)

debacle: Same procedure as everywhere.

jonasw: we can see you, no sure if this is intended

goffi, it is

OK :)

a fancy green light is telling me

it's hard to get everything, what's the topic ?

goffi, we’re still at XMPP 2.0, but I’m not sure what the PEP thing is about

can someone from the room please clarify?

Before lunch we discussed per-user presence, instead of what we currently have: per-device

Status stuff in PEP instead of in presence

<status/> and <show/> moving from presence to PEP.

ah

This would be an additional status, in PEP

now things make sense

SamWhited offered to write a XEP

MattJ, Replacement, not additional.

Indeed

I'll continue with the notes here: https://beta.etherpad.org/p/XMPP_Summit_2018_Day_1

jcbrand: neat

VERY LOUD YES

sorry

was it better then?

otherwise I’ll tune it down even more. in the preview it was like 2 out of 10 bars, so I assumed it was too silent, Zash

I've vol'd up to hear the room

ah right

I forgot that you aren’t there

yah, the room is really quiet

I think it's the room that is low, you and Ge0rG are probably normal

Ge0rG, ping

(no ipv6 at cisco :x)

what’s the etiquette for enqueing a remark to the discussion? I’m not sure if people in the room are giving hand signs.

jonasw: back

Ge0rG, meeting resumed

topic is impromptu mucs

I see backs

cheers, Zash

jonasw, W're waving hands about. I suggest you shout, and/or say here you've a comment.

If you say here, we'll try and notice and pass on your hand waving.

heh

privacy by default, sharing optional

Having an "impromptu MUC group creation" was on my 45 agenda for a while, but first I wanted to implement it

(cc @ dwd maybe)

jonasw: I can't see you waving :P

Much discussion about hand waving. You're covered.

Zash: now I understand what you meant by *LOUD*

Ge0rG, you were as loud :)

jonasw: sorry

wee message routing

"Temporarily". Kev demonstrating optimism there.

haha

my thought exactly

but then he said "on a single jid" and it seemed more realistic

Until the heat death of the universe then

Obligatory mention of vcard-temp

Did the conf video collapse for everyone or just for me?

Ralph is "fixing" it

while you’re messing with things

could you make it louder?

it’s really quiet for us remotelers

which is awful when somebody non-remote says somtehing

ralphm: ^^

I'm sorry but the etherpad is doing weird stuff, I don't trust it with taking notes...

I'll make the notes locally for now and then upload them later

seems good

I didn’t even konw that there was a pad :)

jonasw: that is the right thing to do

don't trust etherpads

they eat your data

It's how they survive in the wild.

hand-wavy note from the floor: why would IoT even worry about the Archive? it could just disable archive and not worry about getting pubsub archived?

SIMS!

"Resource Locking"

The notes are here now, I'll update them from time to time: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html

404

jonasw: NET::ERR_CERT_COMMON_NAME_INVALID

it redirects to opkode.com

then 404s.

yeah

jcbrand, I got redirected here: https://opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html

dwd, handwave

And then somebody will attempt resource locking to bare-JID, breaking even more

Ge0rG, hmm?

MattJ: when rewriting `from` from full to bare

jcbrand: s/Moving/Movim/

I don't understand "resource locking to bare-JID"

yeah...these words in that sequence don't make much sense imo

Ge0rG, can you rephrase that?

maybe I misunderstood Kev's proposal as rewriting the *from* JID

so a client would resource-lock to bare JID after receiving a message from a bare JID

jonasw: I was doing something else when you did the handwave, and instead it came up on my watch, which was really quite impressive.

Gajim used to send normal-to-full, a looong time ago ✏

yaxim never implemented resource locking

same for aioxmpp. when I was about to do it, people were already ranting against it and I was like "eh, so why bother"

I’m gonna get me some tea, my throat hurts, see you later

jonasw, you’re lucky, we got it in poezio before the complaints

mathieui: if only you had asked me :P

I removed it just recently.

Link Mauve: I was positively surprised

ok, there’s something about crypto now, I missed a context switch, where are we at?

jonasw, entropy in message IDs

ah

jonasw, generating random ids.

yah

> With entropy in message ids, you don't need encryption

the automatic camera is awesome.

jcbrand, if you make your screen a bit brighter and font larger, we don’t need an etherpad :-)

it’s weird too, Ge0rG

Is that Edvins or Daves back of the head we got earlier?

stanza-ids

jonasw: better?

I just realized that we *can* see Kev - mirrored in the glass door

jcbrand, I was mostly kidding, but your link still 404s :(

Onscreen is Edwin's head.

A client could be OOM killed at any time, so it needs to persist the non-persistent message IDs.

jonasw: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/

redirects to opkode.com :(

How long is "this long"?

hmm

https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html

jonasw ?? ^

same thing, but my browser might’ve cached the redirect from your first attempt

doesn’t work even with fresh cache

id='cb1ef50e-36cf-4b1f-90d0-0a1808e10676-1bdfd5b7-dc4a-4444-b13e-4d045f17c12a'

Hrm, how do you get chromium to pick a different camera?

we need the message ID to consist of two UUIDs, separated by a "/"

Zash, for sending?

one generated by the client, the other by the server

jonasw: yeah, can't seem to switch to an external webcam instead of the built in laptop one

or maybe a chain of UUIDs.

every hop adds one.

Ge0rG, do I hear blockchain?

mathieui: Yes!

Zash, I’m not sure if it let me pick one when I first connected

jonasw: I only had one camera at first, plugged in a usb webcam now.

The UUID chain idea is actually half-serious.

Zash, maybe re-join the thing?

Camera selection dropdown field is disabled tho

And I can't select one when joining

hm

weird then

client sends id="foobar", server forwards as id="foobar/bazboom", MUC stores as id="foobar/bazboom/dadada"

jonasw: I think it caches the redirect yes

jcbrand: curl doesn't cache. curl says: < Location: https://opkode.com/

(301)

(jcbrand’s link works for me fyi)

huh

Ge0rG, I think we run the risk that this might involve about 6 or 7 segments by the time it gets to a client again

Seems to be an ipv6 issue

Otherwise, it's horribly close to being possible.

jcbrand, oh, that may make sense, I’ve got v6 here

dwd, think of the j2j transports, we can recurse into infinity

dwd: the only problem I see is how to find the right segment again

should work now (hopefully cert is fine)

jonasw: ^

jcbrand: works for me now

Please don't store MUC messages in user's archive.

jcbrand, \o/

Ge0rG, I'm going to store everyone's messages in my archive.

*everyones*

so that’s why everyone wants OMEMO. thanks dave.

I'm storing Skype messages in my archive.

dwd: I'll involve the data privacy officer.

Ge0rG, We haven't reached GDPR doomsday yet. I'm safe.

Ge0rG, take care, you with your IP logging ;-)

re mentions I’d like to throw in the idea I had some time ago. the idea was essentially to allow clients/users to publish a list of terms (in PEP or in presence or w/e) on which they highlight

that would probably tie in well with "detecting mentions in archive server-side"

jonasw: also for push push-through

jonasw: minus E2EE

let's abolish E2EE

E2EE, nice things. pick one.

jonasw: I think that is exactly what Kev proposed for push/CSI/battery safe/notifications

ah maybe, I might’ve missed that

jcbrand: have you written down everything from my presentation slides? :>

Did someone say something that could boil down to having mod_firewall rules for what to carbon, what to archive etc?

Georg: I was still feeling "fleissig"

that was before lunch

Zash, "if xmpp2 && fulljid, no archive, no carbon. if xmpp2 && barejid, archive and carbon"?

jcbrand: ah, IC. It'd be nice to have some colorcoding of what was said vs. what was on the slides

I'm out of the WebEx, need to do some piled up work. ping me when interesting things are happening again :)

damn, I was about to do the same thing :)

30 minutes break, just if you couldn't hear

oh

I assumed some kind of break already, but wasn’t sure how long

SouL: I was getting coffee

I'm the guy with purple squares

Helloo :D

I’m disconnected

I will write when we are back again

Squares?

Ge0rG I'm not sure how to add color coding, will check

Zash, shirt, next to SamWhited x)

jcbrand: or replace the slide content with a link to the PDF (I also have ODP) and the page number

Ge0rG What's the URL to the PDF?

jcbrand: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf

Ok, I'll update

BTW, the notes are in wiki syntax (because I use vimwiki), so I can later put them on the XSF wiki

which wiki syntax is that?

Good man.

mediawiki

https://github.com/vimwiki/vimwiki

yes, mediawiki AFAIK (for vimwiki)

it’s only similar to mediawiki

mediawiki uses '''x''' for bold, not *x*, and I think nested lists work entirely different (** instead of indent + *)

ah

can be fixed with vim regex

Good man.

We are going to start again.

dwd, wave

What's the agenda?

Kev's scribbled list on the whiteboard, not sure if anyone can read it but him

Is there a camera pointed at the whiteboard?

Current topic is "inbox"

MattJ: jc's transcription should have them as well.

I haven't seen Kev at all yet, except briefly as a mirroring in the glass door

what's "inbox"?

I also posted the list in this room this morning.

I've catched late, what's this inbox thing ?

same as activityPub ?

goffi, Ge0rG the list of currently open conversations

A server-side shared list of open chats

no

yah

does it make sense to have?

probably yes

I think so

If you have lots of contacts (imagine you're part of an organisation with thousands of members) you want to keep track of open conversations

it’s a tricky issue I’ve been pondering in JC for a while

would be neat yes

having clients collaborate on that would be cool

Ge0rG, I'm guessing is not something that would be used in Yaxim?

but I’m not sure if it should affect MAM queries

SouL: why not?

SouL: I'd like to have a "recent conversations" view, but it needs significant refactoring

Prosody?

Ge0rG, ah ok, I was talking about how is it now. Nothing to say then.

Prosody keeps being blamed for "why not just use PEP?"

^ Zash

it's really hard to understand Daniel, he's far from mic

Someone wanna help with finnishing the node config persistence bits?

I can’t into lua :(

I can't out of Lua :(

I'm still advocating for external PEP/Pubsub component, there are still lot to do on Pubsub and servers will not catch before years.

> Someone wanna help with finnishing the node config persistence bits? Maybe

If there is a todo list. Or unfinished but pushed code

are we still talking about the "inbox" pubsub node?

jonasw: yes

uh

removing read conversatinos from that sounds bad

just because a conversation is read I wouldn’t want it to disappear from the list

it should take user interaction to be removed

+1

or did I misunderstand that, daniel?

jonasw: if I remove a conversation on Conversations, do I want it to vanish from poezio, too?

Yes

Ge0rG, I *think* there’s a point in that, but I’m also not sure if I’d always want that

because e.g. I don’t want conversations to sync #dovecot on freenode on each connect

send that chat state that says you ended the convo?

but I still want it on all non-mobile clients.

Zash, smart

Could we have a "Close from here" and "Close from everywhere"?

jonasw: until we start doing chat states over presence, and there's no carbons anymore

SouL, I don’t like that UX

(for conversations at least)

Zash, well, the server would obviously update the pubsub node

ah, sure, that would work

SouL: that's a horrible hack.

I'd like to remind y'all that if you make MAM impossible to implement on append-only data structures, I will cry

Make sure your webcam is turned on

MattJ: now you made me want to see that too

Zash, it is possibel, like you can implement anything append-only, but it might become very inefficient to access

Something Smart™

some video breakage here, is it just me?

jonasw: here too

ah fixed

and here

daniel, +1

the good shit, the real shit? Audio is a little bit blocky

daniel: It's started in the sense that Link Mauve added content persistence. Configuration persistence isn't there, apart from whether to enable persistence, which is something of a hack atm.

Something like what?

Zash: Slack, HipChat, etc.

Ah, then me neither

notifications would be neat to keep server side too. For now we have to keep track of messages

Is this the thing were mod_firewall fits in? :)

Note that I personally care more about configurability than persistence

The current discussion is about notification preferences being stored server-side, not actual server-side notifications

I don't restart my server 😀

In buggy CPU world, cloud hoster restarts your server for you.

first time I’m seeing kev!

ralphm found the camera manual controls, I think ✏

jonasw: I was just thinking that

not to mention that SCRAM takes some power too

depending on the number of iterations

jonasw: cacheable tho

SCRAM actually took most of the time for establishing a connection on my MIPS-based router back then

Zash, only partially, isn’t it?

jonasw: If the salt is fixed, which it should be, then you can cache the SaltedPassword

then it's just some XOR and HMAC

I’d like to throw in that these are possibly details which should be up to implementation experimentation?

who’s the guy next to dave with the erlang sticker?

I doubt fast reconnect can become as cheap as just sending <{csi}active> on an existing TLS connection

Zash, I tend to agree

Unavailable presence instead of csi-inactive?

dwd, I’d like to throw in: you might want to discover the <identity/> of a client

I really love Holger's hack of keeping an SM detached session as long as push is registered.

jonasw: Nicolas Vérité

and I’d also like to throw in that servers are allowed to intercept dicso#info and answer on your behalf if you do caps

How far away is multisomething-tcp?

jonasw, nyco

Zash: very far away

in theory

If I had to bet on MIX vs multi-path TCP, I'd put my money on Duke Nukem Forever.

Ge0rG: That joke doesn't work anymore

Zash: I feel old now.

I for one would would put my money on GNU Hurd 1.0 ✏

who’s the one in purple next to dave?

https://wiki.openssl.org/index.php/Simple_TLS_Server "You should avoid 0-RTT if possible. In fact, an organization's data security policy may not allow it for some higher data sensitivity levels. "

ah, hantu.sc

The entire section on that page reads as a "Here be dragons" regarding 0-RTT

.w cop

Ignore that message, sorry.

No space left on device

Someone print that on a t-shirt and give to SouL

Hah, i can access xmpp via tor when in the cisco wifi.

I could not follow all the discussion. About XMPP 2.0 would it be a RFCs or XEPs ?

RFCs seems more logical, but it will take years

What is XMPP 2.0?

goffi: AFAIU it was decided not to put into the IETF process

Zash: the stuff which was discussed for a good part of the day, change in the heart of the protocol to fix broken stuff, cf. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_2.0

Ge0rG: OK, but that seems weird to have major changes without doing RFCs

goffi: the changes might not be as major as anticipated

Zash: I've missed good part of the discussions, but it was about stanza ids, removing resource locking, putting stuff from presence to PEP

Ge0rG: OK, I'll guess it will be discussed on the mailing list anyway, so I'll see there.

from message to presence, from presence to PEP

from PEP to message.

goffi: That was actually meant as a joke.

But what does it mean or something.

I have an idea on how to build stable IDs. Who could I give that to for review/shredding? :)

SaltyBones: write a proto-XEP, or ask tomorrow

Is it (stream id, message counter) ?

Wait, stable ids for what?

Zash: are you volunteering to discuss it? ;)

I still don’t quite understand what’s wrong with putting 256 bits entropy into a random ID and be done with it.

on conflict re-roll

generate IDs on the server

what’s the problem?

Which IDs is this about?

I think we were talking about the client earlier; you can't trust the client to generate IDs correctly as ralph pointed out. The server may be a different story.

But the client wants to know the ID the server picked, and be able to associate it with whatever internal ID it might have

return the ID in <{sm}a/>

:>

(the IDs)

(in a message/@id -> stanza-id mapping)

I thought the idea was to extend carbons to reflect messages back

to the sender, that is

yeah, that’d work too

not just to your other clients

Tho the exact formatting of the message/@id → stanza-id mapping carrier probably doesn't matter that much

yo

The problem with server generated IDs is that you have to reflect them to the client. This is not a big problem but it seemed like people would have preferred to omit it.

it’s the only way to be sure though

To be sure of what?

I think I am on the proper street but I am searching for Thon Hotel

oh I see it