Thursday, February 01, 2018
summit@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Summit discussion

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[04:12:07] <vanitasvitae> Off I go, on my way to brussels :)
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[05:04:23] <Guus> As am I! See you in a bit!
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[06:15:33] <Guus> Awesome, one of my trains got cancelled.
[06:18:44] <vanitasvitae> Up to this point I was lucky
[06:18:45] <vanitasvitae> Toi toi toi
[06:21:05] <Guus> New ETA is 10:00, but then I still need to travel from Brussel North station to Cisco
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[06:36:38] <vanitasvitae> Guus: same here. My train from cologne to brussels is 30 mins late
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[06:41:00] <Kev> Looking at the timings for the Brussels trains this morning, I think we'd be best off leaving the Thon at about 08:30, grabbing the metro to Centraal, and going from there to Diegem on the 09:04, which'd get us to the office at about 09:30. Other options get us to the office very close to 10:00, and don't give us scope for the train delays and cancellations we've seen in previous years.
[06:41:25] <Tobias> Sounds reasonable
[06:41:57] <Kev> The 09:31 from Schuman sounds lovely, but if that's cancelled we're stuck for another hour and don't get to Cisco until 11:00.
[06:54:54] <Kev> Right. Heading down for breakfast :)
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[07:03:36] <Guus> Ooh, two of my trains got cancelled. This is going to be interesting.
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[07:17:41] <vanitasvitae> I'm on the road again (or on the rails to be more precise)
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[07:27:14] <michalwski> Kev i'm going with you. Where do we meet at the hotel?
[07:28:24] <michalwski> Did my message was really copied 4 times or is my app only?
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[07:33:41] <Guus> I got two distinct messages from you in this MUC, michalwski
[07:34:17] <Vaulor> Same here, michalwski
[07:35:24] <Guus> I'm going to try and get off the train in Mechelen, and grab a cab to Cisco. Might just make it in time, if traffic isn't to bad.
[07:36:10] <Guus> Assuming that traffic is not bad in Brussels is not unlike assuming snowfall in hell, but hey, I'm an optimist.
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[08:09:36] <jonasw> good morning dear summiteers
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[08:10:00] <Guus> Hello dear jonasw
[08:10:28] <jonasw> so, I don’t know how these things usually work, but it’d be great to have agendums announced here, if there is such a thing like an agenda
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[08:10:38] <jonasw> so, I don’t know how these things usually work, but it’d be great to have agenda announced here, if there is such a thing like an agenda
[08:11:00] <jonasw> even if A/V is available, I won’t be able to pay attention the whole day, but XMPP 2.0 would be very interesting for me and I’d like to "tune in"
[08:11:18] <Guus> jonasw: well create the agenda during the first few minutes of the meeting
[08:11:24] <jonasw> swete :)
[08:11:31] <jonasw> cool :)
[08:11:37] <Guus> I'll share the a/v details on the wiki now
[08:11:49] <Guus> If I can, from mobile... Give me a sec
[08:11:58] <jonasw> share them here and I’ll put them on the wiki?
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[08:15:00] <Guus> Join the meeting from https://acecloud.webex.com

Thursday, February 1, 2018
8:45 am | 10 hrs
Meeting number (access code): 202 512 989
Meeting password: jsf2S8P9

Friday, February 2, 2018
8:45 am | 10 hrs
Meeting number (access code): 208 941 793
Meeting password: M8nR97ws
[08:15:16] <jonasw> shall I put that on the wiki?
[08:15:40] <Guus> Yes please
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[08:16:15] <Guus> I will send the host key to Kev in private. Ralph should also have it.
[08:17:24] <jonasw> are those timestamps UTC?
[08:17:46] <Guus> I assume they are local time
[08:17:50] <jonasw> hm, early
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[08:19:10] <jonasw> Guus, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22#A.2FV
[08:19:20] <jonasw> oh, I’ll put the URL to the webex thing too
[08:20:48] <Guus> Thanks. I'd make it part of the "remote participation" section, just to be clear.
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[08:24:56] <ralphm> We have arrived at Cisco.
[08:25:12] <jonasw> Guus, it is, it’s a subsection
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[08:26:37] <Guus> Ah, that didn't render well on mobile. Thanks jonasw. I've also posted it on the summit mailinglist.
[08:26:50] <Guus> ralphm: everything in order there?
[08:27:05] <ralphm> We're still in the parking lot
[08:27:15] <Ge0rG> Guus: do you have an ETA for the Summit start?
[08:27:20] <ralphm> Going in soonish
[08:27:24] <Guus> I'll get off this last train in a few moments. Hope to be there around 10.
[08:27:29] <Guus> Ge0rG: 10.
[08:27:36] <Ge0rG> I was kindly asked to present XMPP2 in an earlyish slot, and I have some real-work appointments to route around it
[08:27:38] <Guus> CET
[08:27:45] <Ge0rG> so -30mins
[08:27:52] <Guus> Yup
[08:27:59] <jonasw> hm
[08:28:14] <jonasw> that’s uncool timing for me. sounds like XMPP2 will run into my lunch break :)
[08:28:26] <jonasw> but whatever
[08:28:32] <jonasw> should’ve been there :)
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[08:30:54] <mathieui> MattJ: ping?
[08:31:41] <MattJ> On our way sorry... my brother being slow 😭
[08:33:09] <Guus> ralphm: mind having a stab at setting up the remote participation?
[08:33:23] <jonasw> this sounds like a fun get-together already, I think I’ll have to join next year.
[08:36:40] <Guus> jonasw: you should!
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[08:41:09] <SaltyBones> So far the jokes are pretty bad ;)
[08:41:19] <jonasw> SaltyBones, sounds great
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[08:42:39] <Ge0rG> "The meeting you are trying to join is not currently in progress."
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[08:44:09] <Intosi> That's entirely correct.
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[08:47:42] <ralphm> Yeah, we have some bootstrapping issues
[08:48:25] <Guus> Bah. Apologies. I'm inbound, 10 minutes out.
[08:50:17] <vanitasvitae> I just drove past cisco with my train :D
[08:50:24] <vanitasvitae> But I'll arrive at midi soon
[08:52:33] <mathieui> We'll arrive around 10:15
[08:54:26] <Guus> I'm there.
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[09:08:57] <vanitasvitae> Hm i missed the train because the ticket machine didnt work :( will be there in 40 minutes
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[09:16:10] <dwd> vanitasvitae: Does your train have a flight number?
[09:16:36] <vanitasvitae> S2 3659
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[09:30:47] <Ge0rG> So, are issues sorting out, slowly?
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[09:32:25] *Holger is at Brussels airport.
[09:35:33] <alameyo> I am at the airport too
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[09:37:26] <Tobias> Ge0rG, slowly
[09:38:40] <vanitasvitae> Finally on the last train :)
[09:41:34] <ralphm> Ok. New webex stuff:
https://acecloud.webex.com/
Meeting number: 155 347 963
Meeting password: XMPP$$123
[09:41:44] <jonasw> ralphm, will you update the wiki page?
[09:42:01] <jonasw> "Invalid number or room ID. Try again." ralphm
[09:42:12] <jonasw> (while the meeting numbers from the wiki get me to "not in progress")
[09:42:20] <jonasw> I’m heading out now though
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[09:42:36] <ralphm> oh, let me check the url then
[09:42:56] <ralphm> https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=mfc24e0ece7aead2f2d38ecb8f88fd94f
[09:43:10] <ralphm> Try that
[09:43:22] <alameyo> Holger: improvisation
[09:43:30] <Tobias> Ge0rG, ^
[09:43:57] <alameyo> I might go back to piano at he airport unless you are closer to the exit
[09:44:40] <Holger> I'm right at the piano.
[09:45:11] <alameyo> so wait 2-3 minutes for me
[09:45:37] <Holger> Will do! 👍
[09:45:45] <vanitasvitae> You have to negotiate a secret symbol
[09:46:47] <alameyo> Holger: security doesn't allow me to go back to piano
[09:47:07] <alameyo> go up the stairs and I am behind security gate
[09:47:17] <alameyo> in way to exit
[09:47:21] <Holger> Ah ok, I'm on the way.
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[09:56:51] <vanitasvitae> Was it the first building or the second?
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[09:57:16] <Ge0rG> So I'm in the WebEx now. What's the topic? :>
[09:58:00] <ralphm> disco items caching
[09:58:30] <Ge0rG> Awesome. We need that.
[09:59:07] <Ge0rG> The video just degraded into a surrealistic aquarel painting.
[09:59:28] <ralphm> The initial idea is to put the hash of the item list into a XEP-0004 form that becomes part of the disco info response that can be cached like normal with CAPS
[10:01:00] <dwd> Merkle-Caps.
[10:01:24] <dwd> Which is much of the discussion at the moment - how deep is the Merkle-Caps-tree.
[10:02:15] <Tobias> Ge0rG, are you ready?
[10:02:26] <Ge0rG> can you hear me
[10:02:34] <Tobias> no
[10:02:40] <Tobias> now
[10:04:31] <Ge0rG> ralphm: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
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[10:19:20] <vanitasvitae> did you receive a wifi password?
[10:19:35] <vanitasvitae> I fear I havent
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[10:22:04] <dwd> Nobody has. You'll have to pay attention instead. It's a disaster.
[10:22:19] <vanitasvitae> D:
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[10:23:24] <Holger> Public transport is great fun.
[10:23:53] <dwd> Since you're using XMPP, you can use multiple transports, though.
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[10:24:24] <goffi> hi
[10:26:41] <Holger> dwd: 😛
[10:26:50] <Holger> We're walking!
[10:27:41] <goffi> Is there anything happening at the moment ? The WebEx link tells me "The meeting is not in progress"
[10:27:54] <mathieui> do you have the latest link?
[10:28:03] <goffi> mathieui: I've used the one on the wiki
[10:28:03] <mathieui> webex is up and Ge0rG is talking
[10:28:14] <goffi> hum so I guess I don't have the right link
[10:28:14] <mathieui> 10:41:41 ralphm> Ok. New webex stuff:
https://acecloud.webex.com/
Meeting number: 155 347 963
Meeting password: XMPP$$123
[10:28:20] <goffi> OK thanks
[10:28:37] <goffi> updating the wiki would be a good idea
[10:29:13] <goffi> Invalid number or room ID. Try again.
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[10:31:35] <goffi> ralphm: I'm getting Invalid number with those credentials (and there is no password requested)
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[10:34:21] <Tobias> goffi, have you tried https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=mfc24e0ece7aead2f2d38ecb8f88fd94f ?
[10:35:43] *** ralphm changed the title to "XMPP Summit 22 Brussels | https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22 | WebEx: https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=mfc24e0ece7aead2f2d38ecb8f88fd94f"
[10:35:47] <goffi> Tobias: no, but nobody gave me this link I think
[10:36:03] <Tobias> please try it then :)
[10:36:11] <mathieui> right, I didn’t read enough
[10:36:41] <goffi> Tobias: working, thanks
[10:36:46] <Tobias> you're welcome
[10:38:07] <goffi> I have video but not sound, checking if it's coming from my side
[10:39:29] <goffi> OK it's good now
[10:39:35] <mathieui> goffi, we hear you
[10:39:36] <Tobias> could you silence you're mic
[10:39:53] <mathieui> thanks
[10:40:08] <goffi> sorry :)
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[10:56:13] <mathieui> Ge0rG, we lost you
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[11:00:16] *jonasw waves
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[11:02:05] *vanitasvitae waves back
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[11:04:10] <intosi> "The list up there" is:
[11:05:10] <intosi> * Presence Sorting / per resource
[11:05:10] <intosi> * Message routing
[11:05:10] <intosi> * Stable IDs
[11:05:12] <intosi> * Read state
[11:05:16] <intosi> * History / Inbox
[11:05:20] <intosi> * Metadata
[11:05:23] <intosi> * Rooms
[11:05:36] <intosi> * Impromptu
[11:05:36] <intosi> * Notifications
[11:05:38] <intosi> * Fast Connections
[11:05:39] <intosi> * BIND2
[11:05:43] <intosi> * SASL2
[11:05:47] <intosi> * Disco caching
[11:05:53] <intosi> * Non IM
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[11:06:12] <intosi> * Low prio
[11:06:27] <Ge0rG> intosi: you urgently need to update to a multi-line capable client :P
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[11:07:17] <intosi> It can do multi-line
[11:07:19] <intosi> I just couldn't be bothered
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[11:07:58] <Ge0rG> re "Carbons needs to go away": we still need it as a transport to deliver sent-copies of outgoing messages to our other client
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[11:15:49] <jonasw> who’s speaking by the way? I guess it’s Kev.
[11:15:55] <intosi> It's Kev.
[11:15:55] <Zash> Sounds like
[11:16:12] <intosi> Guus speaking now.
[11:16:24] <jonasw> does that video-zooms-in-on-some-speaker thing happen automatically :-O
[11:16:45] <Zash> Is there video?
[11:16:49] <intosi> It does.
[11:17:12] <Ge0rG> jonasw: it's supposed to.
[11:17:12] <intosi> There are a bunch of cameras in this room, and a lot of Dark Magic™ happens.
[11:17:17] <jonasw> I bet
[11:18:22] <Ge0rG> and this is why I'm seeing the same position for an hour now.
[11:18:23] <Zash> Hm, works in Chromium but not Firefox :|
[11:18:29] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:18:51] <jonasw> yeah, I guessed that firefox will be icky so I went with chromium right away
[11:27:41] <Ge0rG> The password is "XMPP Summit"
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[11:28:11] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:30:03] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:31:14] <jonasw> and then there was silence
[11:31:27] <Zash> *crickets*
[11:31:38] <Zash> /nick tumbleweed
[11:34:00] <jonasw> someone is stealing a chair!
[11:34:16] <Ge0rG> Hopefully not the meeting chair.
[11:34:19] <jonasw> hah
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[11:35:02] <Ge0rG> I wondered about 100% CPU load, but then realized it's Chromium for the WebEx
[11:35:30] *** dwd shows as "online"
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[11:38:36] *** winfried shows as "online"
[11:38:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:38:52] <goffi> same here, while on Firefox it was fine
[11:38:58] <goffi> not sure if video worth it
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[11:40:29] <goffi> well maybe not, Firefox is high too when switching back to it, weird it was fine before
[11:44:51] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:44:56] *** intosi has left the room
[11:47:55] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[11:49:45] <goffi> can somebody ping this room when it's starting again ? I've stopped webex for now
[11:49:57] <jonasw> +1 ^
[11:50:01] <winfried> +1
[11:52:02] *** winfried shows as "online"
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[11:59:26] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[12:03:41] *** winfried shows as "online"
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[12:08:41] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[12:09:51] *** winfried shows as "online"
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[12:10:59] *** dwd shows as "online"
[12:11:16] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[12:11:21] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[12:11:24] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[12:11:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:13:04] <Zash> People seem to be falling back in
[12:14:33] <jonasw> do we maybe wanna make a soundcheck for the remote people? I have no idea if my audio is okay-ish configured
[12:15:04] <Zash> Ge0rG was LOUD compared to the people in the room
[12:15:07] <jonasw> yeah
[12:15:58] <goffi> thanks Zash
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[12:16:15] <jc> Vaulor: hey, I told him ☺️
[12:17:10] <goffi> is this webex thing using some kind of XMPP ?
[12:17:46] <Ge0rG> Zash: sorry, I started out silent and tuned my microphone to 11
[12:18:15] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[12:19:24] <jonasw> what’s the topic?
[12:19:26] <jonasw> I lack context
[12:19:48] <MattJ> Nothing formal - half of everyone is still at lunch
[12:21:24] <jonasw> sounds like something technical DNSy
[12:22:33] <MattJ> jabber.org has had DNS issues for a while
[12:22:35] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[12:23:42] <jonasw> while we’re at it, can we somehow increase volume of the microphone in that room?
[12:24:10] <MattJ> When ralphm gets back, perhaps
[12:24:38] <jonasw> ahk. I don’t know faces. I saw sams badge and I recognize guus, I guess who’s holger, but otherwise I’ve got no idea :)
[12:26:35] *** winfried shows as "online"
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[12:28:48] <goffi> I have a video in small on the right, and the passed presentation in big in the center. Is there any way to move video to main video ? I don't seen anything in UI to do that.
[12:29:13] <jonasw> goffi, the separator between them can be dragged
[12:29:32] <goffi> oh right thanks, could hardly see it
[12:29:46] <Zash> oooooooh, I wondered about that as well
[12:29:46] <jonasw> yah
[12:29:50] <jonasw> I also only found that by accident
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[12:34:21] <MattJ> Is someone note-taking?
[12:34:40] <Tobias> yes, jc
[12:35:06] <jonasw> go jc!
[12:35:16] <MattJ> Thanks jc!
[12:35:19] <dwd> No, don't go! Keep taking notes!
[12:35:38] <jonasw> well
[12:37:39] <Holger> > I guess who’s holger

Was still at lunch when you wrote that though 🙂
[12:37:42] *** jc has left the room
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[12:38:09] <jc> You're welcome, I'll upload once I have internet in the laptop
[12:38:37] <Zash> who was phone^W Holger
[12:39:55] <jonasw> Holger, true, but I think I recognized you when you came in late
[12:40:06] <jonasw> I didn’t mean to say that you were there when I wrote that
[12:40:07] <dwd> Pretty exciting. Everyone's getting WiFi.
[12:40:29] <goffi> is is a surprise test ?
[12:40:35] <goffi> is it*
[12:40:45] <goffi> you have 2 hours
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[12:44:56] <vanitasvitae> They block XMPP!!!!
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[12:45:30] <Zash> Typical corporate firewall?
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[12:45:34] *** Thanos shows as "online"
[12:45:45] <jonasw> what?
[12:45:50] <jonasw> seriously?
[12:45:53] <jonasw> at Cisco?
[12:46:13] <vanitasvitae> I cant connect to any of my servers
[12:46:15] <Holger> jonasw: Right, "came in late" sounds like me.
[12:46:24] <vanitasvitae> Internet works fine though
[12:46:33] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:46:46] <debacle> Holger, like in the Berlin XMPP meetup? :~)
[12:46:56] <mathieui> Ge0rG, jonasw, goffi, wegre starting
[12:46:58] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[12:47:00] <debacle> But I'm in the same group then
[12:47:00] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[12:47:03] <dwd> l'll stick with 4G. We're starting again, by the way.
[12:47:04] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[12:47:07] <mathieui> vanitasvitae, also they don’t block XMPP
[12:47:07] <jonasw> mathieui, thanks, I’m already in
[12:47:09] <vanitasvitae> I remember last year I worked around it by connecting through a vpn
[12:47:09] <goffi> mathieui: thx
[12:47:11] *** dwd has left the room
[12:47:13] *** dwd shows as "online"
[12:47:14] <mathieui> it’s fine on 443 :p
[12:47:17] <jonasw> winfried
[12:47:17] <Tobias> we're starting again
[12:47:22] <vanitasvitae> Ah that might be
[12:47:29] <winfried> yes?
[12:47:36] <jonasw> winfried, meeting’s resuming
[12:47:46] <winfried> (y)
[12:47:50] <Holger> debacle: Same procedure as everywhere.
[12:49:05] <goffi> jonasw: we can see you, no sure if this is intended
[12:49:49] <jonasw> goffi, it is
[12:49:55] <goffi> OK :)
[12:50:03] <jonasw> a fancy green light is telling me
[12:50:24] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[12:52:09] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:52:38] *** debacle shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:52:55] <goffi> it's hard to get everything, what's the topic ?
[12:53:26] <jonasw> goffi, we’re still at XMPP 2.0, but I’m not sure what the PEP thing is about
[12:53:31] <jonasw> can someone from the room please clarify?
[12:53:43] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:53:55] <MattJ> Before lunch we discussed per-user presence, instead of what we currently have: per-device
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[12:54:01] <Zash> Status stuff in PEP instead of in presence
[12:54:02] <dwd> <status/> and <show/> moving from presence to PEP.
[12:54:04] <jonasw> ah
[12:54:05] <MattJ> This would be an additional status, in PEP
[12:54:14] <jonasw> now things make sense
[12:54:22] <MattJ> SamWhited offered to write a XEP
[12:54:26] <dwd> MattJ, Replacement, not additional.
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[12:55:01] <MattJ> Indeed
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[12:56:52] <jcbrand> I'll continue with the notes here: https://beta.etherpad.org/p/XMPP_Summit_2018_Day_1
[12:57:44] <goffi> jcbrand: neat
[12:58:33] <Zash> VERY LOUD YES
[12:59:39] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:59:54] <jonasw> sorry
[12:59:57] <jonasw> was it better then?
[13:00:14] <jonasw> otherwise I’ll tune it down even more. in the preview it was like 2 out of 10 bars, so I assumed it was too silent, Zash
[13:00:37] <Zash> I've vol'd up to hear the room
[13:00:43] <jonasw> ah right
[13:00:46] <jonasw> I forgot that you aren’t there
[13:00:51] <jonasw> yah, the room is really quiet
[13:00:59] <Zash> I think it's the room that is low, you and Ge0rG are probably normal
[13:02:38] *** debacle shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:08:43] <jonasw> Ge0rG, ping
[13:09:02] <mathieui> (no ipv6 at cisco :x)
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[13:13:15] <jonasw> what’s the etiquette for enqueing a remark to the discussion? I’m not sure if people in the room are giving hand signs.
[13:13:18] <Ge0rG> jonasw: back
[13:13:24] <jonasw> Ge0rG, meeting resumed
[13:13:30] <jonasw> topic is impromptu mucs
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[13:16:43] <Ge0rG> I see backs
[13:16:47] <jonasw> cheers, Zash
[13:16:50] <dwd> jonasw, W're waving hands about. I suggest you shout, and/or say here you've a comment.
[13:17:30] <dwd> If you say here, we'll try and notice and pass on your hand waving.
[13:17:35] <jonasw> heh
[13:19:24] <winfried> privacy by default, sharing optional
[13:19:40] <Ge0rG> Having an "impromptu MUC group creation" was on my 45 agenda for a while, but first I wanted to implement it
[13:21:31] *** Kev shows as "online"
[13:21:33] *jonasw waves hand
[13:21:39] <jonasw> (cc @ dwd maybe)
[13:21:47] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I can't see you waving :P
[13:22:16] <dwd> Much discussion about hand waving. You're covered.
[13:22:37] <Ge0rG> Zash: now I understand what you meant by *LOUD*
[13:23:19] <jonasw> Ge0rG, you were as loud :)
[13:23:51] <Ge0rG> jonasw: sorry
[13:24:16] <jonasw> wee message routing
[13:26:52] <dwd> "Temporarily". Kev demonstrating optimism there.
[13:26:56] <jonasw> haha
[13:26:58] <jonasw> my thought exactly
[13:27:08] <jonasw> but then he said "on a single jid" and it seemed more realistic
[13:27:17] <Zash> Until the heat death of the universe then
[13:27:21] <MattJ> Obligatory mention of vcard-temp
[13:27:32] <Ge0rG> Did the conf video collapse for everyone or just for me?
[13:27:43] <MattJ> Ralph is "fixing" it
[13:28:01] <jonasw> while you’re messing with things
[13:28:04] <jonasw> could you make it louder?
[13:28:10] <jonasw> it’s really quiet for us remotelers
[13:28:21] <jonasw> which is awful when somebody non-remote says somtehing
[13:28:45] <dwd> ralphm: ^^
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[13:29:23] <jcbrand> I'm sorry but the etherpad is doing weird stuff, I don't trust it with taking notes...
[13:29:26] *** daniel has left the room
[13:29:30] <jcbrand> I'll make the notes locally for now and then upload them later
[13:29:30] *** debacle shows as "online"
[13:29:42] <jonasw> seems good
[13:29:48] <jonasw> I didn’t even konw that there was a pad :)
[13:31:24] <Zash> jonasw: that is the right thing to do
[13:31:27] <Zash> don't trust etherpads
[13:31:30] <Zash> they eat your data
[13:31:51] <dwd> It's how they survive in the wild.
[13:31:55] <jonasw> hand-wavy note from the floor: why would IoT even worry about the Archive? it could just disable archive and not worry about getting pubsub archived?
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[13:33:10] <Zash> SIMS!
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[13:36:37] <Ge0rG> "Resource Locking"
[13:36:41] <jcbrand> The notes are here now, I'll update them from time to time: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html
[13:37:06] <jonasw> 404
[13:37:07] <Ge0rG> jonasw: NET::ERR_CERT_COMMON_NAME_INVALID
[13:37:09] <jonasw> it redirects to opkode.com
[13:37:16] <Ge0rG> then 404s.
[13:37:18] <jonasw> yeah
[13:37:25] <jonasw> jcbrand, I got redirected here: https://opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html
[13:38:27] <jonasw> dwd, handwave
[13:38:29] <Ge0rG> And then somebody will attempt resource locking to bare-JID, breaking even more
[13:39:03] <MattJ> Ge0rG, hmm?
[13:39:16] <Ge0rG> MattJ: when rewriting `from` from full to bare
[13:39:40] <goffi> jcbrand: s/Moving/Movim/
[13:39:50] <MattJ> I don't understand "resource locking to bare-JID"
[13:42:31] <Tobias> yeah...these words in that sequence don't make much sense imo
[13:42:32] *** debacle shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:42:42] *** debacle shows as "online"
[13:42:47] <Tobias> Ge0rG, can you rephrase that?
[13:43:09] <Ge0rG> maybe I misunderstood Kev's proposal as rewriting the *from* JID
[13:43:39] <Ge0rG> so a client would resource-lock to bare JID after receiving a message from a bare JID
[13:43:46] <dwd> jonasw: I was doing something else when you did the handwave, and instead it came up on my watch, which was really quite impressive.
[13:44:01] <Ge0rG> Gajim used so send normal-to-full, a looong time ago
[13:45:08] <Ge0rG> Gajim used to send normal-to-full, a looong time ago
[13:45:29] <Ge0rG> yaxim never implemented resource locking
[13:45:51] <jonasw> same for aioxmpp. when I was about to do it, people were already ranting against it and I was like "eh, so why bother"
[13:46:05] <jonasw> I’m gonna get me some tea, my throat hurts, see you later
[13:47:00] <mathieui> jonasw, you’re lucky, we got it in poezio before the complaints
[13:47:30] <Ge0rG> mathieui: if only you had asked me :P
[13:47:43] <Link Mauve> I removed it just recently.
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[13:47:58] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: I was positively surprised
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[13:49:10] <jonasw> ok, there’s something about crypto now, I missed a context switch, where are we at?
[13:49:19] <mathieui> jonasw, entropy in message IDs
[13:49:22] <jonasw> ah
[13:49:22] <Link Mauve> jonasw, generating random ids.
[13:49:24] <jonasw> yah
[13:49:38] <Zash> > With entropy in message ids, you don't need encryption
[13:49:38] <Ge0rG> the automatic camera is awesome.
[13:49:47] <jonasw> jcbrand, if you make your screen a bit brighter and font larger, we don’t need an etherpad :-)
[13:49:51] <jonasw> it’s weird too, Ge0rG
[13:49:55] <Zash> Is that Edvins or Daves back of the head we got earlier?
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[13:50:37] <jcbrand> stanza-ids
[13:50:45] <jcbrand> jonasw: better?
[13:50:55] <Ge0rG> I just realized that we *can* see Kev - mirrored in the glass door
[13:51:13] <jonasw> jcbrand, I was mostly kidding, but your link still 404s :(
[13:51:22] <dwd> Onscreen is Edwin's head.
[13:52:30] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:53:18] <Ge0rG> A client could be OOM killed at any time, so it needs to persist the non-persistent message IDs.
[13:55:34] <jcbrand> jonasw: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/
[13:55:50] <jonasw> redirects to opkode.com :(
[13:56:13] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:56:25] <Ge0rG> How long is "this long"?
[13:56:56] <jcbrand> hmm
[13:56:57] <jcbrand> https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html
[13:57:01] <jcbrand> jonasw ?? ^
[13:57:11] <jonasw> same thing, but my browser might’ve cached the redirect from your first attempt
[13:57:25] <jonasw> doesn’t work even with fresh cache
[13:57:26] <mathieui> id='cb1ef50e-36cf-4b1f-90d0-0a1808e10676-1bdfd5b7-dc4a-4444-b13e-4d045f17c12a'
[13:57:31] <Zash> Hrm, how do you get chromium to pick a different camera?
[13:57:50] <Ge0rG> we need the message ID to consist of two UUIDs, separated by a "/"
[13:57:52] <jonasw> Zash, for sending?
[13:57:59] <Ge0rG> one generated by the client, the other by the server
[13:58:15] <Zash> jonasw: yeah, can't seem to switch to an external webcam instead of the built in laptop one
[13:58:18] <Ge0rG> or maybe a chain of UUIDs.
[13:58:23] <Ge0rG> every hop adds one.
[13:58:36] <mathieui> Ge0rG, do I hear blockchain?
[13:58:48] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[13:58:48] <Ge0rG> mathieui: Yes!
[13:58:52] <jonasw> Zash, I’m not sure if it let me pick one when I first connected
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[13:59:23] <Zash> jonasw: I only had one camera at first, plugged in a usb webcam now.
[13:59:27] <Ge0rG> The UUID chain idea is actually half-serious.
[13:59:31] <jonasw> Zash, maybe re-join the thing?
[13:59:37] <Zash> Camera selection dropdown field is disabled tho
[13:59:45] <Zash> And I can't select one when joining
[13:59:48] <jonasw> hm
[13:59:49] <jonasw> weird then
[13:59:59] <Ge0rG> client sends id="foobar", server forwards as id="foobar/bazboom", MUC stores as id="foobar/bazboom/dadada"
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[14:00:20] <jcbrand> jonasw: I think it caches the redirect yes
[14:00:55] <Ge0rG> jcbrand: curl doesn't cache. curl says: < Location: https://opkode.com/
[14:01:03] <Ge0rG> (301)
[14:01:16] <mathieui> (jcbrand’s link works for me fyi)
[14:01:24] <jonasw> huh
[14:01:34] <dwd> Ge0rG, I think we run the risk that this might involve about 6 or 7 segments by the time it gets to a client again
[14:01:44] <jcbrand> Seems to be an ipv6 issue
[14:01:48] <dwd> Otherwise, it's horribly close to being possible.
[14:01:55] <jonasw> jcbrand, oh, that may make sense, I’ve got v6 here
[14:01:57] <mathieui> dwd, think of the j2j transports, we can recurse into infinity
[14:02:06] <Ge0rG> dwd: the only problem I see is how to find the right segment again
[14:02:29] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:02:58] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:04:08] <jcbrand> should work now (hopefully cert is fine)
[14:04:15] <jcbrand> jonasw: ^
[14:04:36] <Ge0rG> jcbrand: works for me now
[14:05:09] <Ge0rG> Please don't store MUC messages in user's archive.
[14:05:34] <jonasw> jcbrand, \o/
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[14:07:18] <dwd> Ge0rG, I'm going to store everyone's messages in my archive.
[14:07:29] <Zash> *everyones*
[14:07:34] <jonasw> so that’s why everyone wants OMEMO. thanks dave.
[14:07:46] <SamWhited> I'm storing Skype messages in my archive.
[14:07:51] <Ge0rG> dwd: I'll involve the data privacy officer.
[14:08:19] <dwd> Ge0rG, We haven't reached GDPR doomsday yet. I'm safe.
[14:08:33] <jonasw> Ge0rG, take care, you with your IP logging ;-)
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[14:12:55] <jonasw> re mentions I’d like to throw in the idea I had some time ago. the idea was essentially to allow clients/users to publish a list of terms (in PEP or in presence or w/e) on which they highlight
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[14:13:05] <jonasw> that would probably tie in well with "detecting mentions in archive server-side"
[14:13:21] <Ge0rG> jonasw: also for push push-through
[14:13:24] <Ge0rG> jonasw: minus E2EE
[14:13:27] <Ge0rG> let's abolish E2EE
[14:13:37] <Zash> E2EE, nice things. pick one.
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[14:13:59] <SaltyBones> jonasw: I think that is exactly what Kev proposed for push/CSI/battery safe/notifications
[14:14:23] <jonasw> ah maybe, I might’ve missed that
[14:14:52] <Ge0rG> jcbrand: have you written down everything from my presentation slides? :>
[14:15:09] <Zash> Did someone say something that could boil down to having mod_firewall rules for what to carbon, what to archive etc?
[14:15:20] <jcbrand> Georg: I was still feeling "fleissig"
[14:15:24] <jcbrand> that was before lunch
[14:15:36] <jonasw> Zash, "if xmpp2 && fulljid, no archive, no carbon. if xmpp2 && barejid, archive and carbon"?
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[14:16:42] <Ge0rG> jcbrand: ah, IC. It'd be nice to have some colorcoding of what was said vs. what was on the slides
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[14:17:53] <Ge0rG> I'm out of the WebEx, need to do some piled up work. ping me when interesting things are happening again :)
[14:18:09] <jonasw> damn, I was about to do the same thing :)
[14:18:28] <SouL> 30 minutes break, just if you couldn't hear
[14:18:47] <jonasw> oh
[14:19:00] <jonasw> I assumed some kind of break already, but wasn’t sure how long
[14:19:01] <Ge0rG> SouL: I was getting coffee
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[14:19:07] <SouL> I'm the guy with purple squares
[14:19:13] <SouL> Helloo :D
[14:19:16] <jonasw> I’m disconnected
[14:19:29] <SouL> I will write when we are back again
[14:19:37] <Zash> Squares?
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[14:20:12] <jcbrand> Ge0rG I'm not sure how to add color coding, will check
[14:20:28] <SouL> Zash, shirt, next to SamWhited x)
[14:20:42] <Ge0rG> jcbrand: or replace the slide content with a link to the PDF (I also have ODP) and the page number
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[14:21:51] <jcbrand> Ge0rG What's the URL to the PDF?
[14:22:07] <Ge0rG> jcbrand: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
[14:25:10] <jcbrand> Ok, I'll update
[14:25:32] <jcbrand> BTW, the notes are in wiki syntax (because I use vimwiki), so I can later put them on the XSF wiki
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[14:25:48] <Zash> which wiki syntax is that?
[14:25:50] <intosi> Good man.
[14:26:11] <jonasw> mediawiki
[14:26:30] <jcbrand> https://github.com/vimwiki/vimwiki
[14:26:36] <jcbrand> yes, mediawiki AFAIK (for vimwiki)
[14:27:01] <jonasw> it’s only similar to mediawiki
[14:27:20] <jonasw> mediawiki uses '''x''' for bold, not *x*, and I think nested lists work entirely different (** instead of indent + *)
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[14:28:38] <jcbrand> ah
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[14:30:04] <jcbrand> can be fixed with vim regex
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[14:30:53] <Ge0rG> Good man.
[14:31:58] <dwd> We are going to start again.
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[14:35:41] <jonasw> dwd, wave
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[14:37:09] <Ge0rG> What's the agenda?
[14:37:48] <MattJ> Kev's scribbled list on the whiteboard, not sure if anyone can read it but him
[14:38:01] <Zash> Is there a camera pointed at the whiteboard?
[14:38:01] <MattJ> Current topic is "inbox"
[14:38:06] <intosi> MattJ: jc's transcription should have them as well.
[14:38:07] <Ge0rG> I haven't seen Kev at all yet, except briefly as a mirroring in the glass door
[14:38:17] <Ge0rG> what's "inbox"?
[14:38:17] <intosi> I also posted the list in this room this morning.
[14:38:23] <goffi> I've catched late, what's this inbox thing ?
[14:38:38] <goffi> same as activityPub ?
[14:38:41] <jonasw> goffi, Ge0rG the list of currently open conversations
[14:38:42] <MattJ> A server-side shared list of open chats
[14:38:42] <jonasw> no
[14:38:44] <jonasw> yah
[14:38:58] <Ge0rG> does it make sense to have?
[14:39:03] <Ge0rG> probably yes
[14:39:05] <jonasw> I think so
[14:39:12] <MattJ> If you have lots of contacts (imagine you're part of an organisation with thousands of members) you want to keep track of open conversations
[14:39:13] <jonasw> it’s a tricky issue I’ve been pondering in JC for a while
[14:39:15] <goffi> would be neat yes
[14:39:18] <jonasw> having clients collaborate on that would be cool
[14:39:27] <SouL> Ge0rG, I'm guessing is not something that would be used in Yaxim?
[14:39:27] <jonasw> but I’m not sure if it should affect MAM queries
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[14:39:35] <Ge0rG> SouL: why not?
[14:39:52] <Ge0rG> SouL: I'd like to have a "recent conversations" view, but it needs significant refactoring
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[14:40:02] <Zash> Prosody?
[14:40:18] <SouL> Ge0rG, ah ok, I was talking about how is it now. Nothing to say then.
[14:40:25] <MattJ> Prosody keeps being blamed for "why not just use PEP?"
[14:40:30] <MattJ> ^ Zash
[14:40:56] <goffi> it's really hard to understand Daniel, he's far from mic
[14:41:06] <Zash> Someone wanna help with finnishing the node config persistence bits?
[14:41:41] <jonasw> I can’t into lua :(
[14:42:38] <MattJ> I can't out of Lua :(
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[14:42:40] <goffi> I'm still advocating for external PEP/Pubsub component, there are still lot to do on Pubsub and servers will not catch before years.
[14:43:11] <daniel> > Someone wanna help with finnishing the node config persistence bits?
Maybe
[14:43:32] <daniel> If there is a todo list. Or unfinished but pushed code
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[14:44:04] <jonasw> are we still talking about the "inbox" pubsub node?
[14:44:10] <daniel> jonasw: yes
[14:44:12] <jonasw> uh
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[14:44:17] <jonasw> removing read conversatinos from that sounds bad
[14:44:27] <jonasw> just because a conversation is read I wouldn’t want it to disappear from the list
[14:44:34] <jonasw> it should take user interaction to be removed
[14:44:41] <MattJ> +1
[14:44:47] <jonasw> or did I misunderstand that, daniel?
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[14:45:17] <Ge0rG> jonasw: if I remove a conversation on Conversations, do I want it to vanish from poezio, too?
[14:45:30] <MattJ> Yes
[14:45:33] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I *think* there’s a point in that, but I’m also not sure if I’d always want that
[14:45:43] <jonasw> because e.g. I don’t want conversations to sync #dovecot on freenode on each connect
[14:45:43] <Zash> send that chat state that says you ended the convo?
[14:45:47] <jonasw> but I still want it on all non-mobile clients.
[14:45:54] <jonasw> Zash, smart
[14:46:08] <SouL> Could we have a "Close from here" and "Close from everywhere"?
[14:46:17] <Zash> jonasw: until we start doing chat states over presence, and there's no carbons anymore
[14:46:20] <jonasw> SouL, I don’t like that UX
[14:46:23] <jonasw> (for conversations at least)
[14:46:36] <jonasw> Zash, well, the server would obviously update the pubsub node
[14:46:54] <Zash> ah, sure, that would work
[14:47:26] <Ge0rG> SouL: that's a horrible hack.
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[14:51:06] <Zash> I'd like to remind y'all that if you make MAM impossible to implement on append-only data structures, I will cry
[14:51:30] <MattJ> Make sure your webcam is turned on
[14:51:53] <Ge0rG> MattJ: now you made me want to see that too
[14:51:54] <jonasw> Zash, it is possibel, like you can implement anything append-only, but it might become very inefficient to access
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[14:55:42] <Zash> Something Smart™
[14:56:27] <jonasw> some video breakage here, is it just me?
[14:56:32] <Ge0rG> jonasw: here too
[14:56:36] <jonasw> ah fixed
[14:56:37] <Zash> and here
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[14:59:07] <jonasw> daniel, +1
[14:59:28] <Ge0rG> the good shit, the real shit? Audio is a little bit blocky
[15:00:23] <Zash> daniel: It's started in the sense that Link Mauve added content persistence. Configuration persistence isn't there, apart from whether to enable persistence, which is something of a hack atm.
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[15:03:12] <Zash> Something like what?
[15:03:44] <SamWhited> Zash: Slack, HipChat, etc.
[15:04:07] <Zash> Ah, then me neither
[15:04:35] <goffi> notifications would be neat to keep server side too. For now we have to keep track of messages
[15:04:50] <Zash> Is this the thing were mod_firewall fits in? :)
[15:05:17] <daniel> Note that I personally care more about configurability than persistence
[15:05:20] <MattJ> The current discussion is about notification preferences being stored server-side, not actual server-side notifications
[15:05:23] <daniel> I don't restart my server 😀
[15:08:51] <intosi> In buggy CPU world, cloud hoster restarts your server for you.
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[15:16:17] <jonasw> first time I’m seeing kev!
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[15:18:00] <mathieui> ralphm found the camea manual controls, I think
[15:18:05] <mathieui> ralphm found the camera manual controls, I think
[15:18:40] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I was just thinking that
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[15:21:15] <jonasw> not to mention that SCRAM takes some power too
[15:21:19] <jonasw> depending on the number of iterations
[15:21:24] <Zash> jonasw: cacheable tho
[15:21:28] <jonasw> SCRAM actually took most of the time for establishing a connection on my MIPS-based router back then
[15:21:36] <jonasw> Zash, only partially, isn’t it?
[15:21:57] <Zash> jonasw: If the salt is fixed, which it should be, then you can cache the SaltedPassword
[15:22:05] <Zash> then it's just some XOR and HMAC
[15:22:07] <jonasw> I’d like to throw in that these are possibly details which should be up to implementation experimentation?
[15:22:45] <jonasw> who’s the guy next to dave with the erlang sticker?
[15:22:50] <Zash> I doubt fast reconnect can become as cheap as just sending <{csi}active> on an existing TLS connection
[15:23:09] <jonasw> Zash, I tend to agree
[15:23:58] <Zash> Unavailable presence instead of csi-inactive?
[15:25:07] <jonasw> dwd, I’d like to throw in: you might want to discover the <identity/> of a client
[15:25:10] <Ge0rG> I really love Holger's hack of keeping an SM detached session as long as push is registered.
[15:25:15] <jcbrand> jonasw: Nicolas Vérité
[15:25:22] <jonasw> and I’d also like to throw in that servers are allowed to intercept dicso#info and answer on your behalf if you do caps
[15:25:42] <Zash> How far away is multisomething-tcp?
[15:25:50] <mathieui> jonasw, nyco
[15:25:51] <Ge0rG> Zash: very far away
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[15:26:21] <Zash> in theory
[15:27:25] <Ge0rG> If I had to bet on MIX vs multi-path TCP, I'd put my money on Duke Nukem Forever.
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[15:27:41] <Zash> Ge0rG: That joke doesn't work anymore
[15:27:53] <Ge0rG> Zash: I feel old now.
[15:28:06] <Zash> I for would would put my money on GNU Hurd 1.0
[15:28:32] <Zash> I for one would would put my money on GNU Hurd 1.0
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[15:37:16] <jonasw> who’s the one in purple next to dave?
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[15:39:45] <Tobias> https://wiki.openssl.org/index.php/Simple_TLS_Server "You should avoid 0-RTT if possible. In fact, an organization's data security policy may not allow it for some higher data sensitivity levels. "
[15:39:59] <jonasw> ah, hantu.sc
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[15:45:59] <intosi> The entire section on that page reads as a "Here be dragons" regarding 0-RTT
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[15:50:53] <SouL> .w cop
[15:51:06] <SouL> Ignore that message, sorry.
[15:51:16] <intosi> No space left on device
[15:51:33] <Zash> Someone print that on a t-shirt and give to SouL
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[15:55:59] <vanitasvitae> Hah, i can access xmpp via tor when in the cisco wifi.
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[16:03:19] <goffi> I could not follow all the discussion. About XMPP 2.0 would it be a RFCs or XEPs ?
[16:04:14] <goffi> RFCs seems more logical, but it will take years
[16:04:31] <Zash> What is XMPP 2.0?
[16:05:23] <Ge0rG> goffi: AFAIU it was decided not to put into the IETF process
[16:05:43] <goffi> Zash: the stuff which was discussed for a good part of the day, change in the heart of the protocol to fix broken stuff, cf. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_2.0
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[16:06:27] <goffi> Ge0rG: OK, but that seems weird to have major changes without doing RFCs
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[16:07:05] <Ge0rG> goffi: the changes might not be as major as anticipated
[16:07:27] <goffi> Zash: I've missed good part of the discussions, but it was about stanza ids, removing resource locking, putting stuff from presence to PEP
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[16:07:54] <goffi> Ge0rG: OK, I'll guess it will be discussed on the mailing list anyway, so I'll see there.
[16:07:54] <Ge0rG> from message to presence, from presence to PEP
[16:07:57] <Ge0rG> from PEP to message.
[16:08:01] <Zash> goffi: That was actually meant as a joke.
[16:08:53] <Zash> But what does it mean or something.
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[17:20:43] <SaltyBones> I have an idea on how to build stable IDs. Who could I give that to for review/shredding? :)
[17:21:03] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: write a proto-XEP, or ask tomorrow
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[17:23:58] <Zash> Is it (stream id, message counter) ?
[17:24:25] <Zash> Wait, stable ids for what?
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[17:26:44] <SaltyBones> Zash: are you volunteering to discuss it? ;)
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[17:45:36] <jonasw> I still don’t quite understand what’s wrong with putting 256 bits entropy into a random ID and be done with it.
[17:45:38] <jonasw> on conflict re-roll
[17:45:40] <jonasw> generate IDs on the server
[17:45:43] <jonasw> what’s the problem?
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[17:46:32] <Zash> Which IDs is this about?
[17:46:53] <SamWhited> I think we were talking about the client earlier; you can't trust the client to generate IDs correctly as ralph pointed out. The server may be a different story.
[17:47:57] <Zash> But the client wants to know the ID the server picked, and be able to associate it with whatever internal ID it might have
[17:48:33] <jonasw> return the ID in <{sm}a/>
[17:48:35] <jonasw> :>
[17:48:37] <jonasw> (the IDs)
[17:48:46] <jonasw> (in a message/@id -> stanza-id mapping)
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[17:51:12] <Zash> I thought the idea was to extend carbons to reflect messages back
[17:51:17] <Zash> to the sender, that is
[17:51:25] <jonasw> yeah, that’d work too
[17:51:25] <Zash> not just to your other clients
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[17:52:40] <Zash> Tho the exact formatting of the message/@id → stanza-id mapping carrier probably doesn't matter that much
[17:53:13] <jonasw> yo
[17:53:15] <SaltyBones> The problem with server generated IDs is that you have to reflect them to the client. This is not a big problem but it seemed like people would have preferred to omit it.
[17:53:28] <jonasw> it’s the only way to be sure though
[17:53:35] <SaltyBones> To be sure of what?
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[18:05:31] <alameyo> I think I am on the proper street but I am searching for Thon Hotel
[18:06:45] <alameyo> oh I see it
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