Friday, February 02, 2018
summit@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Summit discussion

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[06:47:24] <jc> I locked in at the 2nd floor of the Thon hotel because I forgot my card in the gymn bathroom
[06:47:31] <jc> Anybody about to help me?
[06:47:48] <jc> Can't use the lift because it get back into the gymn
[06:48:00] <jonasw> ow
[06:48:07] <jonasw> I’m here to chat with you if that helps ;)
[06:48:27] <jc> Sorry, autocomplete
[06:48:45] <jc> Can't get into lift because that requires card, and can't get back into gym
[06:49:00] <jc> Thanks jonasw 😃
[06:49:10] <jonasw> (you should’ve brought the sword and just slashed your way out of that)
[06:50:16] <jc> Good idea, however I found a room service phone
[06:50:25] <jc> Less body solution
[06:50:41] <jonasw> hah
[06:51:24] <jc> Sigh
[06:51:31] <jc> Less bloody solution
[06:51:37] <jonasw> ah, body works too
[06:51:54] <jonasw> depending on how thorough you are
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[07:09:12] <MattJ> Tip: You don't actually need a card to get down to the ground floor
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[07:10:41] <SamWhited> hi all, I'm going to be late today. Still feeling very poor and I want to see if I have a fever before exposing you all
[07:10:52] <SouL> Is there any group of people going together to Cisco's today?
[07:10:59] <SouL> SamWhited, oh, so sad to read that!
[07:11:07] <SouL> Let me know if you need anything, please.
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[07:22:26] <Guus> Sorry to hear that Sam. I hope you'll feel better soon.
[07:22:51] <Guus> SouL: a bunch of us is leaving from Thon EU to Cisco at 8:30.
[07:23:06] <SouL> Guus, thanks for the reminder :D
[07:23:54] <jonasw> SamWhited, all the best!
[07:24:03] <Guus> SouL: I figured that I'd repeat this in public for everyones benefit. 😉
[07:24:34] <jonasw> would someone kindly pick me up in Dresden? ;-)
[07:24:49] <SouL> Guus, yes, that's what I guessed. Hehe, thanks!
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[08:25:53] <Ge0rG> What's today's agenda?
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[08:30:52] <jonasw> more interesting question: what’s todays webex link?
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[08:33:13] <Ge0rG> I won't be able to participate full time today. The one topic I saw on someone's agenda that's not covered yet but I might contribute to is: SPAM
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[09:01:11] <mathieui> Well, we'll be as late as yesterday, I guess
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[09:03:08] <Kev> Ge0rG: Well, we've lost the piece of paper with the agenda, but the remaining items were:
Spam
Bacon
XMPP Diet
IoT
Dutch trains and flight numbers
MIX
Client feature supersets
[09:03:44] <ralphm> The webex is not started yet, we need a Cisco person to do this and will let you know when that has happened
[09:04:14] <jonasw> bacon
[09:04:17] <jonasw> I want bacon now
[09:04:57] <Ge0rG> Kev: shouldn't "diet" be a sub-topic of MIX? I still consider it an order of magnitude over-engineered and would like to kill a third of the spec completely (proxy jids) and move another third into additional XEPs
[09:05:00] <Holger> I'll be late as well. My cold has gotten worse.
[09:05:16] <Kev> Different topic - someone wanted to talk about XMPP shrinking, rather than protocol lightness.
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[09:05:37] <jonasw> Ge0rG, this may get messy, but I think proxy JIDs is one of the better ideas
[09:05:39] <Ge0rG> Kev: besides of that, I can offer at the uppermost 1h of my attention today, and I suppose "SPAM" is the best place to put it.
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[09:06:17] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I think that having a separate external proxy service gives the same benefits without the enforced complexity
[09:06:25] <Tobias> Ge0rG, something better than whitelisting or blocking tons of domains, right?
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[09:06:50] <jonasw> Ge0rG, wha--
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[09:07:46] <jonasw> I’m not in a frame of mind to discuss this reasonably :)
[09:07:51] <Ge0rG> Tobias: yes
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[09:09:07] <Kev> I think we'll start with the market share stuff then, as I think that's most interest but least remoteish thing, and we can't webex yet.
[09:09:46] <Ge0rG> What's "the market share stuff"?
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[09:10:03] <Tobias> Ge0rG, what people think about that less and less products in the IM market use XMPP
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[09:11:03] <Ge0rG> I have a strong opinion on that. We need a Jabber Software Foundation.
[09:12:19] <Ge0rG> feel free to discuss creating one. I'd volunteer into any position within that doesn't require to do actual work.
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[09:35:51] *** ralphm changed the title to "XMPP Summit 22 Brussels | https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22 | WebEx: https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=m87a45db7ba687dff372d77e8ab1bd786"
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[09:37:38] <Tobias> Ge0rG, jonasw, the webex url seems to have been updated
[09:38:52] <jonasw> indeed
[09:39:13] <Ge0rG> awesome camera perspective, as always.
[09:39:28] <Tobias> Ge0rG, you can thank ralphm for that :)
[09:40:09] <jonasw> a few words on context would be great
[09:40:53] <Ge0rG> Many users have user@domain email and "legacy" user@xmpp.domain addresses.
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[09:41:08] <dwd> Reminds me of '90's youth TV, this camerawork.
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[09:41:57] <jonasw> saying "IM" is a few decades too late, unfortunately.
[09:42:02] <Ge0rG> "Open" is absolutely burned.
[09:42:22] <jonasw> too
[09:42:26] <dwd> "Global" might work.
[09:42:31] <Ge0rG> I tried to resurrect "jabber", but nobody cared.
[09:43:10] <MattJ> GeorG, not going to happen overnight :)
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[09:44:15] <Ge0rG> MattJ: Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 16:08:19 +0200 - there have been some nights since.
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[09:44:39] <Ge0rG> George is okay
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[09:44:49] <ralphm> jc: can you move slightly right?
[09:44:52] <ralphm> eh, left
[09:45:31] *Ge0rG raises hand
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[09:45:47] *jonasw prepares his ears
[09:45:54] <jonasw> Ge0rG, highlighting dwd might work better
[09:46:00] <jonasw> I heard he has some smart thing which tells him
[09:46:16] <vanitasvitae> XMPP is such a horrible term. If I try to tell anyone about XMPP, they cant remeber it. Also I know of people which are part of the XSF and keep messing up even these 3 characters.
[09:46:30] <jonasw> exx ess eff is also horrible to pronounce
[09:46:49] <vanitasvitae> exactly
[09:46:50] <Ge0rG> jonasw: but at least it doesn't rhyme on "pee"
[09:46:51] <Zash> Let me tell you about XMMP
[09:46:58] <vanitasvitae> XMP
[09:47:13] <Tobias> Zash, Ex Em Pee Pee is rather easy on the other hand
[09:47:13] <intosi> We had an xmmp.org in our nameserver for a while due to a typo...
[09:47:24] <vanitasvitae> :D
[09:47:56] <dwd> Extensible Messaging and More Protocol?
[09:48:17] <jonasw> great camera work :)
[09:48:25] <vanitasvitae> maybe you should call it just the "X-Protocol"
[09:48:30] <vanitasvitae> or "XProto"
[09:48:48] <Zash> The Protocol
[09:48:59] <jonasw> "It"
[09:49:03] <vanitasvitae> ProtoCool
[09:49:06] <jonasw> might even trigger some remarkable flashbacks
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[09:50:51] <intosi> Log on, Tune In, Drop Out.
[09:50:57] <Ge0rG> dwd: still raising hand ;)
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[09:51:16] <jonasw> Ge0rG, they’re aware I think
[09:51:55] <jonasw> I think I need a audio dynamic range compressor behind that webex
[09:52:15] <Tobias> Ge0rG, ping
[09:52:17] <jonasw> I can
[09:52:20] <jonasw> I hear him
[09:52:25] <jonasw> but I thnik you need tune up a little, Ge0rG
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[09:52:55] <jonasw> Ge0rG, CQ CQ CQ? ;-)
[09:52:57] <Zash> I can't hear anyone.. Not that I'm up or awake yet
[09:52:58] <Ge0rG> tuned up
[09:53:04] <jonasw> I can hear you, Ge0rG
[09:53:11] <jonasw> but I think that doesn’t help :)
[09:53:26] <Ge0rG> I'm making my point here then
[09:54:06] <Ge0rG> a) The Jabber name still has strong brand value in Russia and other markets. We probably can bring it back to life with a concentrated effort
[09:54:24] <Ge0rG> b) The distinction between "Jabber" the network and "XMPP" the protocol is great, like with Email vs SMTP/IMAP
[09:55:08] <Zash> Take some Cisco people hostage and demand they hand over the jabber trademark :)
[09:55:25] <Ge0rG> c) The Trademark usage rules are frighteningly arcane.
[09:55:27] <jonasw> hah
[09:55:45] <ralphm> Ge0rG: can you try saying something every once in a while?
[09:56:07] <Ge0rG> ralphm: just did
[09:57:55] <Ge0rG> d) I want to straighten that and have a "Jabber Software Foundation" to do client/server certification, nice logos etc.
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[09:58:15] <edhelas> hi
[09:58:20] <Ge0rG> ralphm: please don't beat up the microphone
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[09:58:35] <edhelas> the webex url is oudated I think
[09:58:42] <SaltyBones> I wish I could +1 some of the things you just said.
[09:58:46] <Ge0rG> edhelas: the one in the topic works
[09:59:09] <ralphm> edhelas: the one in the room topic
[09:59:11] <edhelas> Ge0rG indeed, thanls
[09:59:37] <Ge0rG> "works", video and audio are very pixelated
[10:00:13] <jonasw> I think that’s ralph messing with things
[10:00:19] <jonasw> hoping to get your audio working
[10:00:21] <Ge0rG> We also don't have the resources to rename our brand to something that's not "XMPP" or "Jabber"
[10:00:56] <dwd> That's true.
[10:01:03] <Tobias> Ge0rG, yeah..that would probably require new Logos et al. ...
[10:01:22] <Ge0rG> Tobias: that would require commitment from somebody.
[10:01:29] <edhelas> mhhh no video
[10:01:31] <Tobias> Ge0rG, more than somebody
[10:01:33] <edhelas> need chrome?
[10:01:55] <Ge0rG> Tobias: somebodies. Yeah. If we extrapolate from our current efforts, it's not going to happen realistically
[10:02:07] <Tobias> edhelas, you need the upcoming Cisco browser for it ;)
[10:02:22] <edhelas> trying with chrome now
[10:02:25] <dwd> So I'd probably be against a JSF, but only because we can barely get the business framework for the XSF running sanely. To have a new bank account, new Board, new Treasurer, etc would be painful.
[10:02:29] <intosi> It will confusingly be either called Spark or Jabber.
[10:02:29] <Ge0rG> SCAM is doing awesome work, don't want to blame them for anything, but we really need more than we have
[10:03:00] <Tobias> Ge0rG, indeed...SCAM does very good work
[10:03:01] <Ge0rG> dwd: you are right. I wonder if we can get away in a useful way without any of that.
[10:03:01] <dwd> But a client certification programme we could do, especially as we can start off with self-certification stuff.
[10:03:09] <edhelas> yup, works with chrome
[10:03:24] <Ge0rG> edhelas: we can see your cheek
[10:03:45] <Tobias> Ge0rG, what else do you want to see?
[10:03:48] <dwd> Ge0rG: So I think we can do this within the umbrella of the XSF.
[10:03:55] <dwd> Ge0rG: Which cheek?
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[10:06:10] <jonasw> whoever was reading this: I’d argue that "We also don't have the resources to rename our brand to something that's not "XMPP" or "Jabber"" should be (e)
[10:06:14] <jonasw> (timestamp 10:00Z)
[10:07:35] <jonasw> the audio is really bad from whoever is currently speaking
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[10:07:36] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yes, indeed.
[10:07:40] <jonasw> Ge0rG, mute your mic pls.
[10:07:47] <Ge0rG> jonasw: sorry
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[10:08:02] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I hadn't given up hope to speak to the room.
[10:08:19] <jonasw> I unumte when I want to do that :)
[10:08:19] <mathieui> Ge0rG, we were able to see edhelas, hope is not lost yet
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[10:10:10] <jonasw> daniel, +1
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[10:10:22] <jonasw> sweet
[10:10:35] <Ge0rG> yeah. the curated client list was my attempt to improve that "no clients" situation
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[10:13:14] <vanitasvitae> sad that the term "fediverse" is already taken :(
[10:14:32] <Ge0rG> Also https://www.jabber.org/ is absolutely inappropriate.
[10:15:17] <vanitasvitae> yeah and the fact, that the "landing server" is (was?) closed for registration is kinda strange
[10:15:19] <mathieui> and the link to usshc is https, which does not appear to work
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[10:18:31] <vanitasvitae> yeah, I dont get certification programs either
[10:18:50] <vanitasvitae> its maybe to get a little badge that you can legitimately put on your client
[10:18:56] <vanitasvitae> like "jabber-ready"
[10:19:07] <Zash> Nice plant
[10:19:10] <Ge0rG> Self-certification is sufficient in my eyes, the value is to be able to say things like "modern mobile jabber client"
[10:19:14] <intosi> Full Jabber / Jabber 4K
[10:19:26] <vanitasvitae> maybe that convinces clients to add it to their marketing which indirectly promotes xmpp/the network
[10:19:28] <Ge0rG> so then we have a list of "certified" clients which we can recommend to users
[10:20:01] <vanitasvitae> Ge0rG, yeah, but we are already recommending clients to peoples
[10:20:16] <Ge0rG> vanitasvitae: and the clients we recommend mostly suck
[10:20:30] <vanitasvitae> just the fact that it is "certified" - will it change anything?
[10:20:44] <nyco> on the subject of marketing, we have to be relaxed about it
I went in peace with marketing, when I realised we all do marketing in some ways
so don't name marketing marketing
you have a point Daniel when you say it takes time, and should be done if you have to sell something
I agree the XSF has to sell something
I'd go for the "Lean" marketing, that is minimal amount of effort, for the best value delivery we can
being present by only sharing short thoughts on social network is impactful and costless
[10:20:51] <vanitasvitae> I mean already you can just recommend good clients
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[10:20:58] <vanitasvitae> there is no certification needed
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[10:21:18] <Ge0rG> vanitasvitae: there are no good desktop clients.
[10:21:27] <vanitasvitae> true
[10:21:27] <jonasw> nyco, it’s not costless
[10:21:34] <jonasw> it requires somebody to do that, which takes time, which is money
[10:21:35] <vanitasvitae> but will a certification program cahnge that?
[10:22:19] <ralphm> Who remembers this:
[10:22:20] <ralphm> http://ik.nu/~ralphm/tmp/jabberpowered.png
[10:22:29] <nyco> jonasw not forcefully, as we all do social networking everyday, it is just a matter of refocusing, using the same amount of time more wisely
[10:22:48] <jonasw> nyco, I for one haven’t submitted anything to a social network in years
[10:22:50] <jonasw> (unless github counts)
[10:22:56] <Link Mauve> ralphm, see at the bottom of https://jabber.apinc.org/
[10:23:00] <edhelas> This phone is Jabber 2017 Ready ©
[10:23:14] <intosi> ralphm: that sure brings back memories :)
[10:23:23] <nyco> sure, so you speak for yourself, getting back to it will cost you, indeed
others can re-orient their timelines
[10:23:33] <Link Mauve> We still had it on https://jabberfr.org/ before the last redesign too.
[10:23:42] <nyco> one thing that we have lost for example is our evangelism spirit
[10:23:48] <mathieui> Link Mauve, we can put it back
[10:23:53] <Link Mauve> Yes!
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[10:24:12] <jonasw> nyco, I don’t think I’m unique in that regard
[10:24:24] <nyco> sure, so are the others
[10:24:48] <nyco> the ones in the this room, and the concentric circles
[10:25:00] <nyco> I'm not trying to convert people to social netowkring
[10:25:38] <jonasw> > dramatic zoom into nyco
[10:25:39] <jonasw> :D
[10:25:42] <nyco> I'm just saying for those who are social networking could easily produce that small effort, that would change the face of XMPP on social networks
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[10:28:27] <edhelas> one day we'll have news about XMPP on Pubsub :p
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[10:28:33] <edhelas> eat your own food…
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[10:29:26] <nyco> you have that already edhelas
[10:29:32] <nyco> and thanks for this
[10:29:34] <edhelas> yup :) but official one
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[10:30:37] <Zash> uh planet.jabber.org?
[10:30:44] <mathieui> Zash, it was discussed earlier
[10:31:27] <Tobias> Zash, the plan is to make it xmpp/jabber content only, which it mostly is nowadays.
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[10:32:44] <jonasw> "potentially"?
[10:32:47] <jonasw> I’m pretty sure that’s the case.
[10:33:23] <mathieui> (I would argue that some have even crappier software than us)
[10:33:32] <mathieui> (but at least it’s shiny)
[10:34:27] <Ge0rG> Which is why we need the JSF!
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[10:36:45] <Ge0rG> There are different notions for what a "good" client is. This is another argument for self-certification
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[10:38:33] <jonasw> haha
[10:38:35] <jonasw> Jabbaristas
[10:38:43] <jonasw> I reject to be called a Jabbarista though
[10:38:44] <vanitasvitae> :D
[10:38:48] <jonasw> somewhat Jabba The Hutty
[10:38:49] <Ge0rG> Can I get a coffee with that?
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[10:38:58] <Ge0rG> jonasw: what's the alternative? Zimpies?
[10:39:09] <jonasw> :<
[10:39:22] <intosi> Ge0rG: coffee sounds good.
[10:39:29] <ralphm> General announcement: *We're going for lunch soonish, but we still very much would like a Lunch Sponsor. You?*
[10:39:52] <jonasw> sorry
[10:40:32] <edhelas> the integration between the client is a must go
[10:40:40] <edhelas> *clients
[10:41:04] <edhelas> if I do that on client A, I should have that on client B
[10:41:52] <mathieui> Ge0rG, "the Zimpy Band"
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[10:42:32] <jonasw> nyco, thanks, now I spilled stuff over my notebook :P
[10:43:10] <Ge0rG> Daniel needs to write down all the nice things from Conversations!
[10:43:42] <edhelas> nope we didn't :D
[10:43:52] <Ge0rG> yaxim never had chat bubbles. Now I'm proud.
[10:43:58] <jonasw> Ge0rG, :D
[10:44:00] <Zash> Ahead of the time eh
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[10:44:14] <edhelas> https://movim.eu:5280/upload/9d94237298995552fa13436420195fbca436dce7/Q8yulZX9JGUrIoxRwxMddAUF8WBqEcAU7xQCwJBV/Capture_du_2018-02-02_11-43-58.png
[10:44:17] <mathieui> poezio never had chat bubbles, we always were ahead
[10:44:20] <jonasw> :D
[10:44:23] <jonasw> jabbercat neither
[10:44:25] <jonasw> (I tried to though)
[10:44:28] <jonasw> (and it was tricky to do)
[10:44:43] <jonasw> daniel, cool, when you get rid of the chat bubblee, you can have XEP-0392 because there’s no green bubble which conflicts anymore :)
[10:44:49] <Ge0rG> edhelas: you lack XEP0392 coloring
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[10:52:11] <Ge0rG> Android Design is a moving target. They change it every year
[10:52:34] <Ge0rG> My app is four Design Guidelines generations behind.
[10:52:45] <edhelas> I choose to pick Material for Movim years ago, you pick what you want in it and compose around, but there's good bases
[10:52:52] <intosi> Ge0rG: don't count on that coming back into fashion, though ;)
[10:53:16] <Ge0rG> Actually, I stopped caring about what Google wants when they introduced Fragments.
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[10:57:10] <edhelas> fiding stickers, news feed, bots yeah…
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[11:01:26] <goffi> hi. Is there any note already available from this morning talks?
[11:01:53] <SaltyBones> jcbrand, <- guy taking notes
[11:01:59] <mathieui> goffi, https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20two.html
[11:02:21] <goffi> mathieui SaltyBones: thx
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[11:03:05] <edhelas> when does the conference is starting again ?
[11:03:06] <goffi> just here for lunch time :)
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[11:03:23] <jonasw> somebody will notify this MUC I hope
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[11:03:41] <mathieui> edhelas, we started again around 13:40 yesterday
[11:03:41] <jonasw> edhelas, I think yesterday it was half an hour or so until people started to come back and maybe an hour in total until things resumed
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[11:04:01] <goffi> yes if somebody can notify like yesterday, thanks in advance
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[11:10:27] <goffi> I see SPAM section first and empty in notes, was there anything said about it?
[11:10:47] <goffi> It's a huge problem nowadays, and may discourage any newcomer quickly.
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[11:11:21] <jonasw> goffi, no, it’s still undiscussed
[11:11:25] <jonasw> I think it’s on the table for after the lunch
[11:11:27] <goffi> ok
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[11:23:14] <edhelas> I'll have some things to say as well about spam 😃
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[11:55:13] <Ge0rG> edhelas: things like "cheap jabber rassilka"
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[12:08:16] <SaltyBones> commteam@muc.xmpp.org <-!
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[12:13:16] <jonasw> has the summit resumed?
[12:13:28] <Daniel_W> we're just about too
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[12:15:07] <Kev> Just going to once Ralph's off the phone :)
[12:15:08] <Kev> Which is now.
[12:15:44] <jonasw> Ge0rG, you around for SPAM?
[12:15:52] <mathieui> jonasw, goffi, edhelas, Ge0rG, we’re resuming
[12:15:57] <mathieui> bacon time
[12:16:19] <mathieui> (actually IoT)
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[12:17:41] <goffi> mathieui: thx
[12:18:48] <Daniel_W> https://www.dropbox.com/s/y1mnc1t8l56khsx/IoT%20Pres.odp?dl=0
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[12:25:37] <Ge0rG> Sorry, it's not easy to adopt to this kind of post factual agenda.
[12:26:39] <jonasw> Ge0rG, SPAM isn’t happening yet, it’s IoT demo currently
[12:26:43] <jonasw> I can see SPAM happening afterwards
[12:26:49] <jonasw> it was said that this demo will be 30minutes or something?
[12:26:57] <jonasw> (or was it 10?)
[12:27:47] <Ge0rG> is it worth tuning in?
[12:28:17] <jonasw> dunno :)
[12:28:26] <jonasw> depends on whether you’re into IoT I guess
[12:28:58] <Ge0rG> I am, but not via XMPP usually
[12:29:27] <jonasw> heretic!
[12:30:26] <Ge0rG> pragmatic!
[12:30:53] <goffi> why does it take a while to propagate with pubsub on LAN ?
[12:31:05] <jonasw> goffi, a few roundtrips I guess
[12:31:11] <Zash> zeroconf/avahi stuff?
[12:31:19] <jonasw> browser -> webapp -> xmpp server -> client
[12:31:33] <jonasw> Zash, they said something about autodetection, but I didn’t find anything about serverless in there
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[12:31:48] <goffi> it's not in IoT XEP ? Haven't read them
[12:32:02] <Zash> you can use avahi without doing the serverless xmpp thing
[12:32:05] <jonasw> there are no IoT XEPs anyomre, I think
[12:32:12] <jonasw> Zash, yeah
[12:32:18] <goffi> it's probably depend on what you call "take a while" then, if it's 1 s it's OK (it should not take more that that on LAN)
[12:32:19] <Zash> "multicast dns service discovery"
[12:33:09] <jonasw> End-Of-Demo
[12:34:00] <goffi> are the communications encrypted between devices and hub ?
[12:34:21] <goffi> and how auth is working ?
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[12:39:05] <Tobias> next up SPAM
[12:39:11] <Ge0rG> right now?
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[12:39:21] <Tobias> yep
[12:39:34] <Zash> What about Bacon?
[12:39:45] <Ge0rG> Meh. Ongoing business call :(
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[12:42:32] <goffi> I'm on jabber.fr, working well for classic SPIM, but not for presence requests.
[12:43:30] <intosi> Presence requests are very problematic, I agree.
[12:44:01] <goffi> I wonder if proof of work could help here
[12:44:15] <goffi> but it would break compatibility
[12:44:22] <intosi> Renders some of my clients almost useless on some days. Can't find my chats in Conversations, for instance, because they're drowned by new subscription attempts.
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[12:44:53] <Ge0rG> I had to add a "Reject all" button to yaxim's subscription dialog.
[12:45:16] <intosi> Ge0rG: not a terrible idea.
[12:45:46] <Ge0rG> intosi: better idea is https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2246
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[12:45:58] <goffi> we where talking about XMPP popularity this morning, this issue is probably a major treat to it
[12:46:02] <goffi> were*
[12:46:25] <Zash> otoh, spam is an indicator of popularity
[12:46:43] <Zash> nobody would send spam if there were nobody to receive it
[12:46:57] <Ge0rG> Zash: popularity in russian hacker circles
[12:48:30] <goffi> on UI, it could be improved by not using popup, but a separated panel keeping all requests, and a not intrusive notification.
[12:48:55] <intosi> Despite its many flaws, Adium got that bit actually right.
[12:49:35] <Ge0rG> goffi: yes
[12:49:44] <Ge0rG> my next step is to make incoming messages from non-contacts silent
[12:49:56] *Ge0rG raises hand
[12:50:08] <goffi> anyway popup should generally be avoided
[12:50:50] <Ge0rG> > XEP-0157: Contact Addresses for XMPP Services
was that mentioned as well?
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[12:51:15] *Ge0rG wants to discuss https://gist.github.com/ge0rg/2e4accf6950821ca45f743fdf587c08e
[12:51:36] <Zash> Ge0rG: I think someone mentioned that number, yes
[12:52:14] <mathieui> Ge0rG, Link Mauve talked about it
[12:52:35] <jonasw> Ge0rG, no video :(
[12:52:43] <jonasw> now with video
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[12:53:14] <goffi> not sure that removing multiline messages is a good idea
[12:53:33] <MattJ> goffi, from non-contacts only
[12:53:43] <goffi> I have though of question too, and looks nice, but you don't know contact language
[12:54:11] <jonasw> ralphm, can we get that on the screen? https://gist.github.com/ge0rg/2e4accf6950821ca45f743fdf587c08e
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[12:55:18] <goffi> MattJ: yes make it maybe alright. I'm trying to think if people could have a good reason to send multiline. But anyway one spammer see that it is blocker, they'll just send single line messages
[12:55:25] <goffi> blockerd*
[12:55:27] <goffi> blocked*
[12:55:32] <MattJ> Already started :)
[12:56:14] <goffi> does anybody use reputation ?
[12:56:20] <goffi> is it efficient ?
[12:56:36] <Ge0rG> Yeah, IBR is essential to good UX
[12:56:40] <Ge0rG> We can't just block it
[12:57:07] <goffi> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0275.html
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[12:57:48] <goffi> actually I kind of forgot this one, but 275 seem a nice tool
[12:57:54] <goffi> why nobody is using that?
[12:58:01] <Zash> Because nobody is using it
[12:58:15] <goffi> the snake and the tail
[12:58:18] <goffi> we have to start at some point
[12:59:04] <goffi> also if a user is kicked from 2 MUC in a row, it's a good sign that other people can ban him
[13:00:40] *Ge0rG raises another hand.
[13:00:54] <goffi> could not we do a centralized blacklist also ?
[13:00:59] <Zash> we could
[13:01:22] <MattJ> Who manages the centralized blacklist?
[13:01:47] <edhelas> Ge0rG can you please lower a bit your microphone :D the sound level between Ge0rG and the room is quite different
[13:02:12] <jonasw> edhelas, no, you can’t, ebcause then the room doesn’t understand you :(
[13:02:13] <goffi> MattJ: it could be a XEP, and server administrator choose which one is OK. But may not be a good idea, I don't know
[13:03:11] <Ge0rG> edhelas: sorry, lowered now
[13:03:22] *jonasw raises hand
[13:04:08] *jonasw lowers hand again
[13:04:19] <Ge0rG> You could federate with blacklisted servers and just reject all messages with an error
[13:04:20] <Zash> MattJ: Why aren't you, yet?
[13:04:24] <Ge0rG> also all presence
[13:04:41] <Ge0rG> mod_firewall might be able to pull that off
[13:04:55] <Zash> Ge0rG: it can do aaaaaanything
[13:05:05] <Ge0rG> Zash: it can't unpresence me.
[13:05:21] *edhelas raise hand
[13:05:33] <MattJ> Zash, short answer for you: multiple DNS records and SNI
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[13:06:37] <goffi> we could call the centralized list blocklist. Or blockchain to make it more popular
[13:06:43] <Ge0rG> jonasw: the manifesto should be a good decision foundation for what to add to the list
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[13:06:50] <Ge0rG> goffi: stfu now
[13:06:56] <Ge0rG> :P
[13:07:00] <vanitasvitae> I think purely blocking malicious servers withiut gibing the user a reason why could hurt xmpps reputation (messages do not arrive)
[13:07:14] <Ge0rG> vanitasvitae: yes
[13:07:26] <Ge0rG> vanitasvitae: see https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/pull/2202
[13:08:00] <jonasw> vanitasvitae, yeah, thus <policy-violation/> which should be bounced back to the user
[13:08:05] <jonasw> (the sending user that is)
[13:08:06] <vanitasvitae> Okay
[13:08:37] *Ge0rG raises hand
[13:08:44] <mathieui> (I think presence spam is more important than pubsub spam currently)
[13:08:50] <Ge0rG> mathieui: yeah.
[13:09:15] <Ge0rG> Somebody is echoing the Summit room
[13:09:16] <jonasw> edhelas, can you turn your mic of, we’re getting echo from you I think
[13:09:30] <jonasw> edhelas, and that makes it hard to understand
[13:09:43] <edhelas> jonasw done
[13:09:46] <jonasw> ty
[13:10:01] <Tobias> or just servers subscribing to other server's block lists. So the server admin can subscribe to the block lists of other servers they trust. It would be decentralized and flexible. Although you wouldn't have a single definite list that you can look up.
[13:10:28] <Zash> Server Buddies! :)
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[13:10:40] <edhelas> on a decentralized/federated network you always have to base your filtering on defensive rules
[13:10:42] <intosi> Good name ;)
[13:10:54] <Tobias> Zash, yeah..something like that, i know there's a XEP about that
[13:11:15] <Zash> Yes, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0267.html
[13:12:55] <Ge0rG> spam bots often come from TOR or open proxies.
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[13:13:59] <Tobias> Ge0rG, right. That would fall into the detecing spammers in new account registration category, right?
[13:14:22] <Ge0rG> Tobias: or after login
[13:14:33] <Ge0rG> Tobias: registration and spamming happen from different IPs often
[13:14:52] <Ge0rG> "Security Question"
[13:15:01] <Tobias> Ge0rG, interesting. So spammers register via normal IP and then Spam from TOR?
[13:15:02] <Ge0rG> data form with question and answer value, case-ignorant.
[13:15:09] <edhelas> I'm keeping track of the IP and location of all the new registered accounts on movim.eu
[13:15:23] <Ge0rG> > admin278@propanatrx.com wants to subscribe
Sigh.
[13:15:43] <Ge0rG> Tobias: different IPs, but both are in [tor, proxy] list
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[13:15:55] <Tobias> Ge0rG, ahh..ok
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[13:16:17] <Ge0rG> Tobias: also often multiple weeks between registration and spamming
[13:16:29] *Ge0rG raises hand
[13:17:32] *Ge0rG will log off for now, unless explicitly pinged again
[13:17:40] *jonasw waves at Ge0rG
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[13:17:45] <Tobias> alright..having a break for 15 min now
[13:18:54] <goffi> what are the next subjects?
[13:19:08] <jonasw> Client Feature Supersets IIRC
[13:19:12] <edhelas> this conference is sponsored by the Miofino Coffees ©
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[13:19:23] <jonasw> hah
[13:19:47] <winfried> with a nice picture from the sponsor
[13:20:02] <jonasw> did they pay for lunch?
[13:20:50] <winfried> Is the towel-dispenser in the bathroom still so cheerful? It always gave a black-mirror feeling...
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[13:24:48] <Ge0rG> What are the other pending agenda items after coffee break?
[13:24:56] <edhelas> mix ?
[13:25:15] <goffi> ah yes MIX was on the board
[13:25:18] *Ge0rG would like to rearrange Client Feature Supersets to Super Client Feature Sets.
[13:25:37] <goffi> I don't get what is client feature supersets ?
[13:26:11] <Ge0rG> goffi: if at least one of your clients can do last-message-correction, store that flag in your superset, allow others to send you LMC
[13:26:31] <goffi> Ge0rG: OK, thanks
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[13:27:17] <goffi> with MAM that make sense indeed
[13:28:45] <goffi> Do we have anything for notifications ? It starts to worry me as we have many notifications and we have to take track of messages on a per-client level. I would love to have some server side stuff for that.
[13:29:08] <jonasw> goffi, that was discussed yesterday
[13:29:38] <goffi> jonasw: I haven't followed everything, was working at the same time, I hope I'll find it in summary.
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[13:30:08] <jonasw> i think so, you can find the notes from yesterday here: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html
[13:30:17] <MattJ> What was discussed yesterday was notification configuration sharing
[13:30:41] <jonasw> goffi, 1.6
[13:30:43] <Ge0rG> Smart Notifications is an item on my slide deck.
[13:30:47] <MattJ> Read/unread message syncing was discussed though
[13:31:09] <edhelas> Movim is also sending messages to bare JID
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[13:32:19] <ralphm> Just to get this in your heads already. Besides manning the Realtime Lounge over the weekend, we especially need a few hands to build up the stand tomorrow morning at 09:00. Please let me know if you can be there at 09:00 and help out.
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[13:33:12] <vanitasvitae> You could also try to stop federation with servers that run software older than n years :D
[13:33:32] <ralphm> How can you tell?
[13:33:43] <jonasw> jabber:iq:version?
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[13:34:31] <vanitasvitae> ralphm:
Hm, i assumed that servers also send some kind of version strings, but I have mostly no experience about server software
[13:34:40] <vanitasvitae> So my idea might be rubbish :)
[13:35:05] <Ge0rG> vanitasvitae: you don't want to punish stable servers... do you?
[13:35:08] <SouL> I'm guessing the server can always fake that or whatever
[13:35:29] <Ge0rG> SouL: the unmaintained server?
[13:35:36] <vanitasvitae> Ge0rG: you just have to select greater values of n then ;)
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[13:36:26] <vanitasvitae> Ge0rG: that would also improve the experience of users because of more features :D
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[13:40:17] <Ge0rG> vanitasvitae: there was once an awesome article about the two different paradigms of developing software: one is to add new features as fast as possible, the other is to view software and internet services as a kind of "basic infrastructure" - it is good when there are no news about it
[13:41:03] <Zash> Ge0rG: https://xkcd.com/844/ ?
[13:41:19] <Ge0rG> Zash: no
[13:41:43] <vanitasvitae> Ge0rG: but newer software obviously has fewer bugs, because thats how software development works 😉
[13:43:13] <Daniel_W> attn: we're about to come back
[13:43:24] <Tobias> we continue now
[13:44:07] <Zash> Who's paying you for this coffee advertisment?
[13:44:27] <intosi> Cisco, in a way. Half of the cups were free-as-in-beer.
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[14:04:55] <Zash> Inventing the WHOWAS command from IRC?
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[14:06:12] <Tobias> :)
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[14:10:03] <Ge0rG> > alex: actionable outcome I'd like to suggest... some kind of discoverability mechanism. For example, giving someone's email address and then getting IM address. That way systems could discover IM details.
it would be nice to have something like that in DNS
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[14:10:29] <Ge0rG> I actually had high hopes on DNSSEC-secured TLSA records for email address S/MIME keys and stuff
[14:10:39] <winfried> I will be at fosdem too!
[14:11:26] <Zash> Ge0rG: DANE for SMTP seems to be a thing at least
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[14:11:39] <Ge0rG> Zash: right, DANE was the name.
[14:12:31] <winfried> there is a nice cloakroam at fosdem
[14:12:41] <Ge0rG> Zash: but I remember DNSSEC pitches with other, awesome, use cases, like PGP keys
[14:13:25] <Zash> No idea if that got into the wild. A RFC or two on it at least.
[14:14:22] <winfried> I will be there for the cleanup
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[14:18:42] <winfried> what kind of extension cord is exactly needed?
[14:19:05] <Daniel_W> standard 3 prong power lead
[14:19:50] <winfried> for extending lenght or distribution?
[14:20:17] <Daniel_W> just to plug the projector in
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[14:23:08] <Ge0rG> 👏
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[14:24:12] <intosi> CEE 7/4 to C13
[14:24:14] <ralphm> winfried: yeah, just the general power lead you'll find on any (desktop) computer
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[14:24:44] <jcbrand> Just putting it out there again... the minutes are available here: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/
[14:25:02] <jcbrand> Tomorrow I'll see if I can upload them to the XMPP wiki
[14:25:05] <intosi> Thanks, jcbrand!
[14:25:13] <winfried> how many do you want?
[14:25:16] <winfried> ;-)
[14:25:36] <intosi> Just the one should do.
[14:25:37] <ralphm> winfried: just one would suffice I think
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[14:25:47] <intosi> Are you coming tomorrow?
[14:26:15] <winfried> yeah, not in optimal health, but I will come
[14:26:22] <jcbrand> you're welcome! Also a disclaimer regarding the minutes. I can't guarantee that they're correct or accurate. If you read something that's false, please let me know and I'll update them
[14:26:32] <winfried> take the train tonight, will be checking in arountd 21:00
[14:26:36] <jcbrand> Or perhaps later people can update the wiki
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[14:27:20] <winfried> won't do any beers tonight...
[14:27:54] <jonasw> jcbrand, :-)
[14:27:54] <Guus> winfried: good to have you here!
[14:28:03] <winfried> thank!
[14:28:26] <winfried> now fetching the cord, before I forget it...
[14:28:50] <winfried> (can deliver it including a remote power switch :-) )
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[14:28:54] <Ge0rG> jcbrand: do you have the minutes source code as well?
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[16:16:07] <Kev> Anyone know if there's a store nearby for snacks, or a vending machine in the hotel or anything?
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[16:21:31] <mathieui> Kev: I think there's a small shop in the hotel
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[16:21:48] <Kev> Ta. I shall go hunt in a moment :)
[16:22:10] <mathieui> If you walk to kuns-weg there's a carrefour express store too
[16:24:30] <SouL> I went there yesterday for some toothpaste
[16:28:35] <Zash> Toothpaste, the number one threat to airplanes
[16:28:44] <SouL> xD
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[16:29:56] <MattJ> Is anyone not going into the centre and/or going somewhere with more interesting vegetarian options planning to have dinner soon and want to group up?
[16:30:03] <MattJ> ESENTENCETOOLONG
[16:31:44] <MattJ> And completely unrelated, does anyone know of some simple tool to interact with pubsub? :)
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[16:32:52] <SouL> goffi, would jp help in what MattJ requests?
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[16:33:10] <goffi> yes
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[16:33:29] <goffi> MattJ: jp (SàT frontend) is quite evolved regarding pubsub
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[16:33:42] <MattJ> Is it easy to set up?
[16:34:06] <goffi> cf. https://blog.agayon.be/sat_jp.html
[16:34:10] <goffi> well if you are on Arch, yes
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[16:34:27] <goffi> else, I will be outdated and you'll have to install SàT by hand
[16:34:46] <MattJ> which is how hard? (on Ubuntu 16.04)
[16:34:54] <MattJ> We can take it into private chat
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[17:12:09] <jonasw> MattJ, depends; is a python shell convenient enough for you? ;-)
[17:12:24] <jonasw> then you could "simply" import aioxmpp, asyncio;, connect and use PubSubClient to do things
[17:12:36] <jonasw> but unless you’re proficient with python shell things you probably don’t want that
[17:12:43] <MattJ> I could also use a Lua shell and verse's pubsub API :)
[17:12:55] <Zash> MattJ: You mean `clix raw`
[17:13:12] <MattJ> I'm trying not to get side-tracked, so I just ended up using Prosody's telnet console for now
[17:13:41] <Zash> clix raw +pubsub <<< pubsub(host, node):publish(...)
[17:13:47] <MattJ> My dream would have been a simple web-based client
[17:14:23] <Zash> Weren't you the one who said that generic pubsub doen't make sense by itself
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[17:14:48] <MattJ> Maybe
[17:15:12] <MattJ> But a tool for testing and admin would be handy
[17:15:22] <MattJ> Something I can see building into Prosody's web admin one day
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[17:17:58] <goffi> MattJ: what would do such a client, raw things ?
[17:18:26] <goffi> MattJ: I could easily do it, there is already all the pubsub methods and a web framework in SàT
[17:18:39] <MattJ> Add/remove/list nodes, add/remove/list items
[17:19:02] <MattJ> Change config, etc. (as advanced features)
[17:19:17] <goffi> yes that would be quite trivial to do
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[17:19:52] <goffi> you can drop a feature requests on bugs.goffi.org if you want, so I'll see when I have some time
[17:21:29] <goffi> (but I personaly think that a shell is way more handy than a any graphical UI for such things)
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[17:25:56] <goffi> MattJ: I've created a ticket actually, will see when I have time
[17:26:02] <MattJ> Ok, thanks!
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[17:31:52] <MattJ> Looks like I just finished pubsub node persistence in Prosody, time for dinner
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[17:33:52] <goffi> good news
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[17:43:59] <Link Mauve> MattJ, \o/
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[18:38:11] <Seve> MattJ: such a nice moment to do it, right :D
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[21:26:02] <winfried> Is anybody who will be helping tomorrow with building the lounge already back in the hotel? I have the extension cord Ralph needs, but I don't know if I will be in time tomorrow...
[21:27:56] <MattJ> I'm not helping in the morning, but if you need me to take it and pass it on tonight/tomorrow morning, I can
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[21:30:17] <winfried> Would be fine, where to find you?
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[21:34:40] <MattJ> Want me to come down to the lobby?
[21:35:10] <winfried> Is alright, where the check ins are?
[21:35:24] <MattJ> Yep, I'm on my way
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[22:06:59] <SamWhited> oops, just saw this. I will be around and hopefully in fighting shape if help is needed tomorrow morning.
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[22:47:42] <Guus> Tomorrow at 8 will be a good time to hand over things that need to go to FOSDEM.
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[22:48:48] <Guus> Everyone that wants to help build up the stand, please be at FOSDEM at 9.
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[22:49:18] <Guus> Some of us are departing from Thon at 8:15 to go there.
[22:49:25] <MattJ> I can bring it down to the lobby at 8, or hand it to someone now, whichever is easiest
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[22:53:19] <MattJ> Going to go with lobby at 8 :)
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[22:58:51] <Guus> Also, some pictures of us, here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/4UaP0IEAFropPcxj2
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[23:13:47] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[23:14:01] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[23:14:19] *** fli shows as "online"
[23:16:00] *** dwd has left the room
[23:16:01] *** dwd shows as "online"
[23:16:37] *** dwd has left the room
[23:16:57] *** dwd shows as "online"
[23:17:26] *** winfried has left the room
[23:17:51] *** daniel has left the room
[23:18:01] *** daniel has joined the room
[23:18:52] *** joachim.lindborg has left the room
[23:19:21] *** fli shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[23:21:39] *** joachim.lindborg has joined the room
[23:26:35] *** Zash has left the room
[23:26:37] *** joachim.lindborg has left the room
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[23:29:21] *** fli shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[23:33:17] *** fli shows as "online"
[23:36:40] *** Tobias has left the room
[23:36:45] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[23:36:51] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[23:37:28] *** jc has left the room
[23:37:29] *** jc has joined the room
[23:42:25] *** Guus has left the room
[23:42:41] *** joachim.lindborg has left the room
[23:43:22] *** alameyo has left the room
[23:43:29] *** Guus has joined the room
[23:45:04] *** jc has left the room
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[23:46:39] *** joachim.lindborg has joined the room
[23:47:55] *** dwd has left the room
[23:49:18] *** dwd shows as "online"
[23:52:33] *** marc.laporte has left the room
[23:53:04] *** marc.laporte has joined the room
[23:53:04] *** marc.laporte has left the room
[23:53:15] <Guus> You might want to check for people having breakfast, instead of being in the lobby. 😉
[23:54:39] *** Zash has joined the room
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