XSF Discussion - 2011-06-14


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  44. stpeter let's see, the meeting starts in 1 minute?
  45. stpeter once again I neglected to add it to the calendar :(
  46. Kev No minutes I think.
  47. Steffen Larsen yup.. now
  48. Alex here now ;-)
  49. stpeter hi Alex!
  50. Intosi Hi, all.
  51. Alex hi @all
  52. Neustradamus hi all
  53. akuckartz Hi (only lurking)
  54. koski Evening
  55. Steffen Larsen Hola!
  56. Alex ok lets start
  57. Alex bangs the gavel
  58. Alex you can see teh Agenda here: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2011-06-14/
  59. Alex 1) Call for Quorum
  60. Alex 36 members voted via memberbot, so we acheved a last minute quorum ;-)
  61. Alex we have 66 members
  62. Steffen Larsen ha ha.. lazy us (members)..
  63. stpeter whew, we barely made it
  64. Intosi This is becoming a recurring issue...
  65. stpeter maybe some people skipped 3 voting opportunities... ;-)
  66. Kev Can we name and shame those that didn't vote?
  67. Alex 2) Items Subject to a Vote
  68. Steffen Larsen they should be broadcasted some IM spam ;-)
  69. stpeter I'm tempted to rewrite memberbot so it sends annoying IM messages to remind you about voting :)
  70. Alex new and returning members, and bylaw changes
  71. Alex you can see all applicants here: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_April_2011
  72. Alex 3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
  73. Alex anybody wants to vote in teh meeting?
  74. Alex if not I start preparing the results
  75. remko prepare away
  76. Steffen Larsen go go
  77. Alex ok
  78. Alex ok reload the page: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2011-06-14/
  79. Alex 4) Announcement of Voting Results
  80. Steffen Larsen auch a lot of no's..
  81. Alex all new and returning members were accepted, also the proposed bylaw changes
  82. stpeter Steffen Larsen: yeah
  83. Alex Steffen Larsen: there were some very short applications
  84. Alex I guess some members want more info about the applicants
  85. Steffen Larsen Alex: yup.. they got my no's as well..
  86. Alex 5) Any Other Business?
  87. Alex what can we do to get more turnout?
  88. Steffen Larsen Alex: I was wondering about the next tech review.. last time I proposed a meeting was in november/dec. 2010! :-)
  89. stpeter Alex: I'm going to rewrite memberbot, as I said
  90. Steffen Larsen stpeter: to pop up with the correct local UTC time?
  91. stpeter unfortunately I need to go to another meeting right now, so I'll be AFK for a while
  92. stpeter Steffen Larsen: that too
  93. Kev stpeter: If people aren't responding to the four? different mails that Alex is sending out to vote, I have to assume it's willful neglect, rather than a lack of awareness, and poking them by IM won't help.
  94. Steffen Larsen stpeter: beautiful!
  95. Alex stpeter: I thought you were kidding, but a new memberbot would be great
  96. Steffen Larsen stpeter: we made a wiki page with ideas for the new bot
  97. Steffen Larsen stpeter: last year I think
  98. Florob Kev, actually, people seem to be struggling with inbox zero a lot (and don't proritise reading lists for some reason). I know one of the people who voted had to be reminded in person
  99. stpeter Alex: I need to do some coding again :)
  100. stpeter anyway, bbiab
  101. Alex what I see when running the votes is that the people who don't vote normally also don't reapply
  102. Steffen Larsen Alex: good.. those we dont need
  103. Alex so our clause with the 3 missing votes doesn't really help, it only kicks them our 3 month earlier
  104. remko Alex: is there a correlation between those people and the effort they put in their application?
  105. remko maybe we need to remind our members that they have a 'no' button too :)
  106. Alex remko: yes there is
  107. remko or add an extra feature to memberbot asking them something about an application before they can say 'yes'
  108. Steffen Larsen stpeter: maybe a votingbot with dataforms?.. :-)
  109. Steffen Larsen remko: like.. would you really, really vote yes…
  110. remko no, like where does person X work
  111. remko how long has he been member of the XSF
  112. remko anyway, i'm semi joking :)
  113. Alex most of or "long time" members vote always, the others come and go
  114. Alex anyway, I don't think it helps when we remind them and they finish the voting with only yes votes or random votes when they don't care about it
  115. Alex I think we can A) raise more interest on the memberlist B) reduce the quorum in the bylaws C) Be more strict with our No votes
  116. Kev B isn't helpful.
  117. Kev Given it's just saying that we expect to have a majority of crappy members.
  118. Alex Kev: right
  119. Intosi Kev: agreed.
  120. akuckartz D) Increase interest in XMPP ...
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  122. Intosi akockartz: don't you mean XSF?
  123. Kev akuckartz: I don't see much correlation there. More interest in the XSF, possibly.
  124. Alex akuckartz: when somebidy joins teh XSF he should be interested at XMPP
  125. akuckartz No, I mean XMPP
  126. akuckartz (But I am only lurking!)
  127. akuckartz Raising interest in XMPP would result in more interest in XSF membership
  128. Intosi I assume XSF members all have interest in XMPP, or they wouldn't be members in the first place.
  129. akuckartz If 200 would apply and 100 would not get enought votes that would not be a problem.
  130. Intosi The thing is that members have only one obligation, which is to vote, and for some reason even that seems to be a bit hard to do for a lot of them, given that we barely reached quorom.
  131. Kev You'd assume they have an interest in the one and only responsibility a member has, but the evidence suggests otherwise.
  132. Kev I suggest we modify the bylaws so any applicant in required to prove that they can spell XMPP before they're eligible.
  133. Alex LOL
  134. Kev This is probably enough effort to act as a barrier to entry for some people...
  135. Alex Memberbot can ask them 10 questions about XMPP, and they need at least 6 correct answers
  136. Alex anyway, lets close the official part and discuss this further
  137. Alex 6) Formal Adjournment
  138. Alex I motion that we adjourn
  139. Intosi seconded
  140. Kev thirded.
  141. Alex thanks
  142. Alex bangs the gavel
  143. Intosi Thanks, Alex.
  144. Kev Thanks Alex (and others).
  145. Steffen Larsen Alex: thanks for nice order..
  146. Alex no problem, you're welcome
  147. Intosi Alex: can you fix the hyperlink to the XSF bylaws to point to a sane location, instead of a file on your local computer?
  148. akuckartz Thanks for letting me lurk
  149. Kev http://xmpp.org/xsf/docs/bylaws.shtml
  150. Intosi I don't have file:///D:/Daten/My%20Web%20Sites/Radfalk/xsf/docs/bylaws.shtml
  151. Kev Although on that topic, we only need 22 people out of 66 for quorum, don't we?
  152. Alex Intosi: yes, fixing now
  153. Intosi I agree, having just looked exactly that up.
  154. Alex Kev: I always thought 50%, but lemme check the bylaws
  155. Kev 1/3.
  156. Intosi So 36 out of 66 voted.
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  158. Alex Intosi: fixed
  159. Intosi TA
  160. Alex Kev: you are right section 3.8 :-$
  161. Intosi Still, 30 out of 66 couldn't be bothered with voting...
  162. Kev Impressive, I think.
  163. Kev I wonder what would happen if we were to add a "Would you like to give up your XSF membership? Please vote Yes or No" as the last question of the memberbot :)
  164. Kev (Given the propensity for voting Yes to everything)
  165. Intosi Hmm, you might fool a few people.
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  168. dwd Oh. See, I looked at the calendar and thought I'd read 2000Z, hence now...
  169. MattJ dwd, join the club ;)
  170. Kev Hey, you both voted. Welcome to the elite 50% of the club.
  171. MattJ Heh
  172. Intosi We could make t-shirts ;)
  173. dwd Intosi, Hopefully not like the last lot.
  174. Alex has left
  175. MattJ "I voted for no change."
  176. Kev "I paid with a 20"
  177. Intosi dwd: better not let Will make them, then.
  178. dwd Intosi, Mmmmm.... Green....
  179. Intosi Puke, the lost colour!
  180. dwd I like Kev's suggestion for a final question, though.
  181. Kev dwd: Flawed because the people we really need to eject won't be voting anyway.
  182. Kev dwd: Not including the list of non-voters in your mail? I'm disappointed.
  183. Tobias Kev, won't they be ejected anyway after three votes or so
  184. Kev Tobias: Yes, but that does mean they only have to type ~=12 words a year to maintain their membership.
  185. dwd Kev, I was tempted, but I can't find an up to date list of the members.
  186. Kev Well, there is a list on the site, is it not current?
  187. dwd Tobias, If you miss 3 votes, it's in time to reapply the next time.
  188. Kev (http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-member-list/ )
  189. dwd Tobias, Hard to see what you lose out on.
  190. Florob MattJ, waqas, what did you assume my T-7 meant :)
  191. dwd Kev, Ah, I'd looked at the date on the bottom.
  192. Kev That was last updated 2011-02-01, which suggests it's current.
  193. MattJ Florob, which T-7? :)
  194. Florob MattJ, prosody@ about 7 min before the meating...
  195. MattJ Florob, oh, it was short and shortly succeeded by a long question from a user, didn't even notice it
  196. Intosi dwd: apathy, or perhaps because people didn't see it as a problem, yet.
  197. bear is confused
  198. bear is this the members meeting?
  199. Kev That was 75mins ago.
  200. bear sighs
  201. dwd bear, And yes, you're not the only one confused by the time.
  202. Kev Christopher Zorn is Tofu, isn't he?
  203. Tobias yeah
  204. Kev Zooldk?
  205. dwd I think so. I can never remember which way around the Zornados are.
  206. Kev I'm trying to work out who didn't vote.
  207. Kev It looks at the moment like we even have Council and Board members failing to vote.
  208. Tobias ahh..are we getting a pillory on the xmpp.org frontpage? :D
  209. dwd I did notice that, but I wasn't 100% sure, and the problems of naming and shaming and then being wrong are not worth considering, I think.
  210. MattJ dwd, did you ever each with the wrong name at dinner? If not, I win :)
  211. MattJ *address each
  212. dwd MattJ, I avoid talking to them for that precise reason. :-)
  213. MattJ The problem is, they explained to me, and I couldn't swear I wouldn't do it again
  214. bear goes to the work meeting that he creatively skipped to attend this one
  215. waqas Kev: I missed the vote. I'd like to apologize for that. I was hoping to vote in the meeting, but joined as it had just ended.
  216. Intosi waqas: that's why you're not kicked off as a member if you miss only one vote. Accidents happen.
  217. remko not as long as dwd's not in charge
  218. MattJ Then accidents won't happen?
  219. remko has left
  220. Intosi It always looks like an accident if you missed a vote with dwd :D
  221. Kev I have a list of 32 people not matched up to emails that voted, and 2 emails that I couldn't match, so it's close.
  222. remko has joined
  223. Kev If I was more confident I'd not made a mistake, I'd name/shame :)
  224. Steffen Larsen has left
  225. waqas I'd be +1 to naming and shaming, particularly repeat offenders, as this is the one thing we are supposed to do as members.
  226. dwd Just having a vote count would be enough. Then members have the information when it comes to reapplying.
  227. waqas By the way, there's one thing about voting that annoys me: I feel that my voting no to anything would never make any difference, as most would vote yes to everything.
  228. dwd BTW, I've not looked at the results, but I assume the membership voted yes to everything and everyone?
  229. Kev dwd: Pretty much, yes.
  230. dwd waqas, Heh. Exactly as I implied, yes.
  231. dwd Kev, Only "pretty much"?
  232. Kev Well, someone voted against me ):
  233. dwd Kev, That was me.
  234. Kev Boo.
  235. dwd Actually, I voted when the bot came up, so I can't honestly remember who was standing, let alone how I voted.
  236. Kev I voted first!
  237. Kev At least, I think the lists Alex sends out are reverse chronological.
  238. MattJ I used to think so, but something once made me not so sure, my entry appeared where it oughtn't have
  239. Kev Maybe it's not, then.
  240. dwd MattJ, As the bishop said to the actress.
  241. Kev Oh, I miscounted.
  242. Kev *Two* Council and one Board didn't vote.
  243. Intosi Wow.
  244. Intosi Any repeated offenders there?
  245. Kev dwd: re: voting yes - I earlier suggested having a "Would you like to give up your membership? Please vote Yes/No" as the last question on memberbot.
  246. dwd Kev, This I saw.
  247. remko haha
  248. dwd Kev, And agreed with.
  249. waqas +1 to that ^^
  250. Kev Ah, did you? I missed that.
  251. dwd Kev, I *think* it'd even be possible to place on the voting tally, I need to examine the bylaws.
  252. waqas I was thinking more of inserting a fake applicant (HAL, but then I do think HAL an XSF member...), but this works too ^^
  253. waqas *do think HAL should be
  254. MattJ Oh, I'm fairly sure he'd get in
  255. dwd waqas, I discussed putting in a joke application a year or so ago.
  256. dwd waqas, But I decided it was self-defeating as a way to make people take it more seriously.
  257. Kev I wonder if I could persuade my wife to apply.
  258. Intosi MattJ: and we could make him vote and reapply automatically, as well, so he wouldn't be kicked off due to a technicality ;)
  259. Kev Simply put "I'm Kev's wife" in her application and see what happens.
  260. MattJ Intosi, :P
  261. Intosi Well, she would get in, simply because she's a woman.
  262. Kev Intosi: And once you can code that, perhaps you could start on a wetware version.
  263. Intosi Kev: the perfect member :P
  264. Intosi That sounds even worse when I read it back.
  265. dwd I was just thinking that.
  266. dwd Context, gentlemen!
  267. Kev waqas: I'm looking at the list at http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2011-03-16/ and can see you did vote there, so we believe you about it being an accident :D
  268. Kev There are a number of repeat offenders, though.
  269. waqas Kev: I think this was the first time I missed it :)
  270. Kev I don't think I've missed one yet, but I'm sure it'll happen at some point. I'm insufficiently organised for it not to.
  271. remko dito
  272. remko has left
  273. dwd I've missed one, I think. And I'm sure people do, from time to time. It's just that 30 people can't all be missing it in good faith.
  274. remko has joined
  275. stpeter wow, I see you guys have been busy :)
  276. dwd passes stpeter a beer
  277. dwd I think it's that kind of an evening. :-)
  278. Intosi Indeed.
  279. stpeter is juiced up on coffee at the moment
  280. Intosi I had my share of beer this weekend, so I'll grab a glass of water instead.
  281. waqas By the way, who do I poke to get memberbot sources?
  282. stpeter one quarter of an iced coffee is more caffeine than I typically consume in a month
  283. stpeter waqas: memberbot sources are jealously guarded because they are so icky
  284. waqas stpeter: I would like to have a look. I promise not to rant about it in public.
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  287. stpeter waqas: really I should put it into git
  288. stpeter checks the source
  289. remko has joined
  290. dwd stpeter, Do they still contain your code?
  291. waqas I've been asked a number of times for an XMPP based voting thingy by random people. I was thinking of writing one with both an XMPP and HTTP frontend. Just thought I should look at memberbot to see all that it does.
  292. dwd waqas, Well, the memberbot code is simpler because it doesn't need to handle the "no" case.
  293. stpeter waqas: memberbot is a big hack
  294. stpeter dwd: yes, I think so, although it's been rewritten somewhat
  295. MattJ stpeter was struck by lightning one day, sat at a computer, typed a lot of code, and memberbot was born
  296. MattJ ...or that's how I heard it
  297. Intosi Sounds about right.
  298. waqas stpeter: I was just thinking I'd make my implementation have all the memberbot features at a minumum, and suggest using that the next time voting happened.
  299. Intosi I'm off. Good $PART_OF_DAY to you all.
  300. stpeter gosh I wrote memberbot so long ago I can't even remember
  301. stpeter Intosi: tot ziens!
  302. dwd rather likes having stpeter's code running the XSF.
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  304. Kev MattJ: The way I heard it, Peter wrote memberbot and then was struck by lightning as punishment. YMMV.
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  306. stpeter waqas: I'd prefer to use x:data than all these texty messages, although the latter is easier for (some) humans
  307. Kev [Disclaimer: I've never seen the code, AFAIK]
  308. stpeter before releasing any code I need to check a few things with Alex, who has been running the code for the last few years
  309. stpeter I haven't been the Secretary for some years now
  310. stpeter but really the code should be open-source for transparent voting :)
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  315. stpeter ok, Alex is offline so I've emailed him about it
  316. waqas Thanks
  317. stpeter but I will try to get memberbot into a git repository this week
  318. stpeter then we can start working on memberbot2 :)
  319. stpeter in Lua, naturally ;-)
  320. waqas ^^
  321. remko i was going to say that :)
  322. Kev Swiftob!
  323. Kev goes back to lurking.
  324. remko yeah, use Lua on Swiften, and everyone's happy ;-)
  325. stpeter :P
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  329. Neustradamus I added last meeting on http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/
  330. Kev Thanks.
  331. stpeter yes, thanks Neustradamus
  332. dwd Right. Nighty-night, all.
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  334. Neustradamus Kev, stpeter :)
  335. Neustradamus I have a liittle request, it is possible to see for a "system" for post messages on jabber/xmpp/xsf identi.ca accounts and maybe twitter one day?
  336. stpeter what kind of system?
  337. stpeter I poked the iteam about setting up a bot for that, but maybe I can work on that bot, too, while I'm working on the new memberbot :)
  338. stpeter brb
  339. Neustradamus stpeter: It will be excellent ;)
  340. Neustradamus after, about the website, I have 2 requests again, if one person can be do this :) Kev ? about the XSF image (http://xmpp.org/images/xmpp.png) it is possible to add this on the theme pages ? example: http://xmpp.org/ at right under: "The XSF relies on voluntary donations from members and the help of our sponsors to continue to promote XMPP, please visit our sponsor pages and/or click on the Donate button to help support the XSF." example: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/ at right under: "The XMPP Standards Foundation is an independent, nonprofit standards development organization whose primary mission is to define open protocols for presence, instant messaging, and real-time communication and collaboration on top of the IETF’s Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP)."
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  345. Neustradamus At the bottom: We can add: Copyright © 2001/2007-2011 XMPP Standards Foundation Why not jabber.org too (not same). I think this when I visited http://gnu.org/ (there is a ©)
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