Friday, April 20, 2012
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[15:12:18] <Florian> afternoon all
[15:12:21] <Florian> Board meeting in 20?
[15:32:13] <Florian> board meeting time?
[15:33:27] <Florian> dwd bear?
[15:34:17] <dwd> Afternoon.
[15:34:28] <dwd> Yes, meeting time.
[15:34:59] <dwd> Florian, I think this may be the first meeting we've had across three continents.
[15:35:05] <Florian> if bear is here, we're quorate, right?
[15:35:14] <dwd> Florian, If he's awake. bear ?
[15:35:21] <Florian> haha ... I think you might be right
[15:35:34] <Kev> You need to change the bylaws so I count towards quorum, as I'm always here :p
[15:35:46] <Florian> heh ...
[15:35:51] <dwd> Kev, We can't do that, we need a members meeting.
[15:35:54] <Florian> I think that says less about the bylaws than it does about you :)
[15:36:27] <dwd> Kev, I think we can allocate ourselves a salary, though. Or at least, we can appoint ourselves into an officer's position and then give ourselves a salary.
[15:36:47] <Florian> :)
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[15:37:39] <dwd> Hi Chris.
[15:37:41] <cchris434> hi Chris here
[15:37:44] <cchris434> hello!
[15:37:49] <Florian> Hi Chris :)
[15:37:54] <Kev> I'm happy with handing out salaries as long as I get one.
[15:38:00] <dwd> Well, that's certainly quorate.
[15:38:10] <dwd> Kev, I bet you wish you could vote, now.
[15:38:13] *bear is here
[15:38:36] <dwd> OK, and now we are four.
[15:38:45] <Florian> all good then :)
[15:39:24] <cchris434> sorry that I was late
[15:39:37] <dwd> So, we don't actually have any real agenda, but stuff has been happening nonetheless.
[15:39:49] <Florian> GSoC is one thing
[15:39:53] <dwd> Kev, My understanding is that the Summer of Code application went well?
[15:40:28] <Kev> We got slots for all the students we wanted marked "Amazing", although none of the ones that were "Nice to have".
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[15:40:40] <Kev> But as that's already more slots than in the last couple of years we did pretty well.
[15:40:40] <dwd> How many is that?
[15:40:54] <Kev> 7
[15:41:00] <Florian> I think that's a nice number
[15:41:07] <dwd> OK, so two questions:
[15:41:15] <dwd> 1) What's the next step?
[15:41:30] <Kev> 1) Attending the dedup meeting in approximately 3 hours 19 minutes.
[15:41:42] <dwd> 2) Presumably this means we get 7 x $SOMETHING into the XSF's piggy bank at some point?
[15:41:56] <dwd> What's a dedup meeting?
[15:42:23] <Kev> If multiple orgs accept the same student it's a dupe.
[15:42:26] <bear> some students are accepted by more than one org - dedupe is when they figure out who wins the student
[15:42:27] <Kev> These need to be resolved.
[15:42:39] <Florian> right
[15:42:49] <Florian> do we know of any risks in our case?
[15:42:51] <Kev> This will take about 5 minutes, as all the dupes should already have been sorted out between the orgs (ours was, at least).
[15:43:02] <Kev> Florian: I've already resolved our only known duplicate.
[15:43:08] <Florian> alright :)
[15:43:15] <Kev> It's possible for more to occur during the meeting, but this is unlikely to affect us.
[15:43:27] <Kev> The next real step is sorting out an appropriate welcome for the students.
[15:43:43] <Kev> I'm hoping someone will help with this, as I'll be fairly busy with my own student.
[15:44:05] <Florian> appropriate welcome in what sense? A nice mail + blog post?
[15:44:11] <Florian> or should we give them XMPP Swag?
[15:44:31] <Kev> We typically give them swag, although I think we dropped the ball a bit last year.
[15:44:42] <Florian> right ... books for all?
[15:44:55] <bear> yes, I messed up the books for last year
[15:45:03] <bear> tshirt + books would be nice IMO
[15:45:15] <Florian> right
[15:45:16] <Kev> But yes, we should make sure they're on the gsoc mailing list, we should make sure they know who to talk to.
[15:45:29] <Florian> I was thinking of shirts / hoodies ... but they're locked up at Cisco Diegem
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[15:45:33] <Kev> I'd like it if someone other than me was a possible contact - at least so my student has a chance to bitch to someone about me.
[15:45:47] <Florian> I'd be happy to help
[15:45:52] <Kev> Thanks.
[15:45:57] <bear> I can help monitor the gsoc xmpp list
[15:46:03] <Kev> Thanks.
[15:46:09] <Florian> I need to join that :)
[15:46:47] <Kev> I note that we did have a bit of an issue this year.
[15:47:13] <bear> the stuck-in-moderation issue?
[15:47:17] <Kev> louiz' didn't read any of my mails or Carol's emails, and so hasn't started deciding he wants students for poezio until today - which is clearly far too late to be able to do anything about it.
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[15:47:37] <bear> ah
[15:47:46] <Kev> So some poor students haven't got slots through no fault of their own.
[15:48:06] <Kev> Other next steps include setting up weekly meetings for all students and mentors in the gsoc room.
[15:48:36] <bear> that was hard to wrangle last year - the students were in timezones that made a common meeting hard
[15:48:39] <Florian> alright
[15:48:50] <Florian> what time worked last year?
[15:48:53] <Kev> As for books, I suggest the two XMPP books, pragprog and something on time management.
[15:49:10] <Kev> Florian: Typically evening UK time is what we go for, we'll see once we have the students.
[15:49:58] <Florian> alright
[15:50:01] <Kev> We will also need some blog post, I imagine.
[15:50:10] <Florian> on a sidenote: what's the URL / E-mail to subscribe to gsoc?
[15:50:23] <Kev> To our gsoc list, you mean?
[15:50:27] <Florian> yeah
[15:50:30] <Florian> I'm on the Google one
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[15:50:45] <Florian> Kev: if you send me the info that need to go into the blogpost, I can write one tomorrow at the airport
[15:50:51] <Kev> http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/gsoc
[15:51:07] <Kev> Florian: Thanks - but we can't discuss our accepted students until they know themselves, which is Monday :)
[15:51:28] <bear> we could use an etherpad to start coordinating student meetings and posts
[15:51:31] <Florian> or that :)
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[15:51:43] <bear> so we all have info on which student is attending and also blogging
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[15:52:04] <Kev> bear: We should get all the students to set themselves up with blogs and onto planet, too, yeah.
[15:52:44] <Florian> gsoc@xmpp.org. You are already subscribed to this mailing list.
[15:52:48] <Florian> interesting
[15:52:51] <Kev> Congratulations :)
[15:53:02] <bear> part of their "Day 1" activities: wiki accounts, blog planet, meeting info, mailing address
[15:53:04] <Kev> Ok, so we've got a bunch of stuff to do, but we can't do it until Monday.
[15:53:22] <Florian> alright
[15:53:36] <bear> actually - we should create a gsoc 2012 wiki page
[15:53:49] <bear> and have the students, when known, start filling in info
[15:54:09] <Kev> We can sign them up to the mailing list and wiki ourselves, but theother things need their interaction.
[15:54:13] <dwd> So aside from approving $MONEY to spend on $BOOKS, does the Board need to do anything here?
[15:54:29] <Kev> Is someone willing to offer to sort out bear's list of TODOs above, Monday or Tuesday next week?
[15:54:44] <bear> florian - we can meet monday and work out the list
[15:54:51] <Florian> bear: sounds good
[15:55:13] <Kev> Is that bear and Florian sorting out the student welcome?
[15:55:18] <bear> kev - yes
[15:55:21] <Florian> yup
[15:55:23] <Kev> Marvellous, thanks chaps.
[15:55:35] <Kev> I will chase if I remember, once the announcements go out.
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[15:55:45] <dwd> bear, Florian - that's including the swag, right?
[15:56:01] <Kev> dwd: 2) Yes, there will be $3500 available to the XSF towards the end of the year. We'll need to invoice for it. I believe we failed to last year.
[15:56:01] <bear> it can
[15:56:20] <Kev> For books I suggest we go with the two XMPP books, PragProg and something timemanagementy.
[15:56:29] <Florian> alright
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[15:56:41] <Kev> Assuming we can swallow the cost until the end of the year.
[15:56:54] <bear> where I failed last year was in getting addresses for shipping until way to late
[15:56:55] <dwd> Kev, Yes, we can.
[15:57:15] <dwd> Where is the list of students going to be documented?
[15:57:26] <bear> it will be on the xsf's gsoc page
[15:57:32] <bear> actually it is, just private
[15:57:37] <Kev> dwd: On google-melange.com. I can just tell you who right now if you want - but not in a logged public channel.
[15:57:58] <Kev> It's not final until Monday, but it's very nearly a done deal at this point unless the dedup meeting throws us a new dupe.
[15:57:59] <dwd> Kev, Sure - it was more of a question of our internal logistics, not because I wanted to know.
[15:58:37] <Kev> I note that there wasn't much Board help in ranking students this year.
[15:58:58] <Kev> In fact, only Florian signed up.
[15:59:23] <dwd> OK, noted.
[15:59:43] <dwd> Kev, Anything more on GSoC?
[15:59:44] <Kev> And I think that's GSoC covered.
[16:00:19] <Florian> great
[16:00:20] <dwd> So in summary, Florian and bear are sorting out student welcomes on Monday.
[16:00:26] <Florian> yup
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[16:00:44] <bear> yes
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[16:01:15] <Florian> I quickly wanted to bring up another thing ...
[16:01:22] <Florian> if we're done with GSOC
[16:01:23] <dwd> Florian, Shoot.
[16:01:31] <bear> did we approve money for books?
[16:01:50] <Florian> bear: I think we did
[16:02:06] <dwd> bear, In principle - get a proposal together. I'm assuming it'll all come to << what we're getting.
[16:02:22] <Florian> right :)
[16:02:41] <bear> k, once we have list of students I can find out what cost will be for shipping
[16:02:55] <Florian> coolbeans
[16:03:13] <Florian> at the Summit in Brussels, we talked about BrowserID and letting XMPP become the standard for it
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[16:03:18] <dwd> bear, Sure, but if we're getting books, we can ship locally (ie, ship to EU from EU, etc).
[16:03:43] <dwd> Florian, Yeah, we discussed a lot in this space and we (meaning I, mostly) haven't followed up much.
[16:04:28] <Florian> right
[16:04:45] <Florian> I think we should push this as the board
[16:05:07] <bear> what is required for pushing?
[16:05:34] <bear> internal to moz i'm pushing hard to get some work done on 2 dns srv related bugs
[16:05:37] <Florian> good question ... I think just starting conversation with entities such as BrowserID (Mozilla?)
[16:05:38] <dwd> bear, Someone who works for Mozilla getting the right (BrowserID + XMPP) folk in a chatroom together, probably.
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[16:05:42] <bear> to allow js code to make dns questions
[16:06:10] <bear> buddycloud folk are already in touch with all the mozilla people
[16:06:34] <Florian> ah, cool
[16:06:42] <Florian> so maybe get them together too?
[16:07:02] <bear> but maybe we need to start having buddycloud have public conversations so mozilla folk have to respond in public
[16:07:07] <bear> right now I think it's all via email
[16:08:25] <dwd> OK, so the thing to do from a Board perspective is to push these conversations into the public sphere.
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[16:08:51] <bear> +1
[16:09:09] <Florian> +2
[16:09:16] <cchris434> +3
[16:09:17] <bear> let me ping simon
[16:09:21] <Florian> and make sure XMPP becomes the glue for the internet :)
[16:09:25] <bear> and ask what he is blocked on
[16:09:35] <bear> well, and to also get him to post to the list about it
[16:10:04] <Florian> is it worth that we get a SIG ?
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[16:11:02] <bear> we need to figure out what all the pieces are
[16:11:11] <dwd> The problem with SIGs is that we run the risk of them having too small a number of people to keep momentum. I'd rather form SIGs by demand, in general.
[16:11:49] <Kev> I agree.
[16:11:56] <dwd> My inclination is that if Simon & co are actively driving this, we should let them continue, and support them where we can.
[16:12:04] <bear> yes
[16:12:18] <Florian> yes, I agree
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[16:12:29] <Florian> I think we (the XSF) need to push this in the next few months
[16:12:32] <dwd> Although pulling the discussion into the public seems like something we should push for, of course.
[16:12:38] <dwd> Ah, speak of the Simon.
[16:12:39] *simon tips his hat.
[16:13:14] <dwd> simon, Your discussions with Mozilla - we'd like them to be public, if at all possible. What can we do to help?
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[16:14:20] <simon> At the moment someone needs to implement a proof of concept. I'll be in Mountain View next week and would like to meet with Ben Adida at Mozilla again.
[16:14:43] <bear> i'm sending him an email right now to try and get that done
[16:14:47] <simon> There's no secret on progress. I've just exceeded my mental bandwith this month and so nothing has happened.
[16:15:12] <bear> more resources at mozilla are being thrown into the persona and identity space
[16:15:24] <bear> internally they are gearing up to enter that space as a company
[16:15:31] <bear> so now is the time to get under their noses
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[16:15:56] <simon> I like that Thunderbird has an XMPP stack now and perhaps something could come out of that. From my own opinion I'm really keen on "get a channel, you've got a browserID"
[16:16:24] <Florian> right
[16:16:31] <dwd> simon, RIght, our aim here (as XSF) is to ensure that XMPP is the identity/browserid solution.
[16:16:42] <Florian> for me I see it this way: you have a single ID (a JID), and all your friends are on there
[16:16:56] <simon> Ben was really keen on not excluding an XMPP component... but there isn't any demo for that yet.
[16:17:41] <simon> momspeak: "My email that I can chat with also enables me to sign into my Etsy account"
[16:17:49] <bear> with tbird now doing xmpp - the time is right for other parts of moz to do the same
[16:18:02] <Florian> indeed
[16:18:22] <Florian> and if you think of identity ... it consists of you (authentication) and your network (your roster)
[16:18:22] <simon> Bear: how will mozilla be spinning up XMPP hosting?
[16:18:29] <Florian> and we have notifications sorted
[16:18:33] <bear> email sent to ben and david ascher about your being in MV
[16:18:36] <Florian> as we can do push
[16:18:39] <dwd> So, we really need a tech demo done, you think?
[16:18:44] <bear> yes
[16:18:46] <dwd> .
[16:18:59] <Florian> hmm, would it be worth spending some money on doing that?
[16:19:11] <bear> I haven't pushed for moz running their own xmpp - I think the ops folks are scared of it by lack of knowledge
[16:19:29] <Florian> bear: they should contact a third party :)
[16:19:30] <bear> the last one they tried was ejabberd
[16:19:46] <simon> Mozilla should just make a nice sign-up process that can spin you offto other known providers. (heck, they don't host email either).
[16:19:57] *simon shudders.
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[16:20:15] <bear> they don't host it *yet*
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[16:20:40] <simon> It's a problem we have with bc too. The next version will help a user choose a good domain.
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[16:20:59] <bear> email hosting was the biggest problem for tbird also
[16:21:10] <bear> people downloaded it expecting to get an email address
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[16:21:44] <simon> that still doesn't mean they need to get one from Mozilla.
[16:22:02] <bear> true
[16:22:51] <bear> they also thought to host sync offsite - until they realized none existed that had the privacy policy that was likeable to moz
[16:22:59] <bear> so they had to create sync servers
[16:23:35] <bear> the issue with xmpp is that once it is part of the browser then they need xmpp servers that can handle 40 million users
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[16:24:06] <Florian> bear: they should drop us a line :)
[16:24:19] <bear> "us" being flosoft?
[16:24:20] <simon> it's called gtalk.
[16:24:26] <dwd> bear, Or else we need a protocol that allows distributed fedreated signup.
[16:24:43] <Florian> bear: yeah, sorry .. I'll stop self promoting :)
[16:25:02] <bear> florian - no - was just wanting to be clear - keep self promoting :)
[16:25:14] <bear> for a brief moment I thought you meant xsf
[16:25:36] <bear> can gtalk be used for non-gmail signups?
[16:25:45] <dwd> bear, No, not really.
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[16:26:11] <bear> because the browserid would be their xmpp jid - for it to really be federated
[16:26:22] <dwd> bear, But in any case, sign-up is a technical problem.
[16:26:30] <bear> agreed
[16:26:58] <dwd> So back to where I was before my DSL dropped, I'm wondering if there's likely to be someone we could throw a bounty to, to get the tech demo written.
[16:27:46] <dwd> I think it's an area where, if XMPP got a foothold, we'd massively increase XMPP deployment and use, and that seems somethign worth spending actual cash on.
[16:27:54] <bear> agreed
[16:28:29] <bear> we would need an xmpp server that groks the server side browserid implementation
[16:28:34] <Florian> agreed
[16:28:34] <Zash> Yay world domination!
[16:28:59] <dwd> bear, Yeah, we need a protocol too, or at least a strawman for one.
[16:29:45] <Zash> dwd: Write down what you described at the summit?
[16:30:24] <dwd> Zash, Yeah, although my solution had an XMPP address for the website. But yeah, we could do something here.
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[16:30:38] <bear> can we continue on list for this - I need to run
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[16:31:01] <dwd> bear, Yeah - assuming we're happy in principle to spend some cash here, let's raise it on the members list?
[16:31:06] <Florian> I can send a quick summary of where we're at with BrowserID to the list
[16:31:10] <Florian> list, being board first?
[16:31:22] <bear> I think if we can get a small focused project idea - yes
[16:31:24] <Florian> and we can decide what we can do?
[16:31:44] <bear> or even an incremental list of tech demos
[16:31:55] <Florian> XMPP as ID for everyone in the world ... I'd be more than happy to spend money on that
[16:32:01] <Ashley> since i was late, we're describing something for GSOC or just more general purpose?
[16:32:05] <dwd> Florian, That has been duly noted.
[16:32:13] <dwd> Ashley, General purpose, in this case.
[16:32:30] <Ashley> ok, cool & interesting!
[16:33:05] <dwd> Right - Next meeting - was this time OK for everyone?
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[16:33:19] <Florian> I like this time
[16:33:23] <bear> this time was very good
[16:33:31] <Ashley> yes, was good for me, but did it ever get added to the ical?
[16:33:34] <dwd> Then this time next week, OK?
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[16:33:42] <dwd> Ashley, Erm. Possibly not.
[16:33:44] <Kev> Was this meeting arranged on the members list? It's possible I missed it, but I didn't see it announced.
[16:33:53] <Ashley> i think it was on the board list
[16:34:10] <Florian> yeah, I think board only
[16:34:12] <dwd> Kev, No, this is also true - I arranged it on the board list.
[16:34:20] <Kev> I vaguely remember a discussion about the members list being used by Board for everything that didn't need to be out of camera.
[16:34:23] <bear> are we moving to fridays then?
[16:34:24] <Florian> but yeah, let's push it to Members list
[16:34:41] <Florian> bear, I'd +1 that
[16:34:47] <bear> +1 for fridays also
[16:34:48] <Florian> not that it matters to me ... everyday is sunday :)
[16:34:51] <dwd> bear, Seems that way, unless there's objections.
[16:35:01] <bear> my wed is just way to busy lately
[16:35:02] <cchris434> I am good with that
[16:35:05] <Ashley> +1 on fridays for me
[16:35:18] <dwd> OK, so same time next week, I'll announce it on members and do the ical thing.
[16:35:22] <Florian> Friday 1530 UTC it is :)
[16:35:27] <bear> +1
[16:35:43] <Ashley> great, thx!
[16:35:52] <simon> If anyone is interested in how bc is planning on doing a distributed sign-up this is the current plan: http://postimage.org/image/6shnsv2k1/
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[16:35:58] <Ashley> tho, next friday i'll be traveling and may not be able to make it
[16:36:01] <dwd> I think we're done - anyone anything further?
[16:36:08] <cchris434> I am good, thank you
[16:36:19] <Florian> +1 for ending this :)
[16:36:21] <Kev> Not from the peanut gallery.
[16:36:25] <bear> +1 for adjourn
[16:36:49] <dwd> See you all on the list, then. :-)
[16:36:55] <bear> thanks all
[16:37:03] <cchris434> ciao
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[16:37:20] <Florian> great meeting guys! thanks all!
[16:38:30] <bear> simon - davida says he can meet later in week
[16:39:26] <simon> Awesome! I'll shoot him an email.
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