XSF Discussion - 2012-12-05


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  16. arcriley isnt there a meeting suppose to be happening here right now?
  17. Kev In 10 minutes, yes.
  18. stpeter has joined
  19. stpeter brb
  20. Alex has joined
  21. Kev (Which is now...)
  22. stpeter returns
  23. stpeter who needs to be poked? ;-)
  24. Zash Poke all the people!
  25. stpeter everybody must get poked!
  26. arcriley bear?
  27. Alex Good evening
  28. stpeter hi Alex!
  29. Kev stpeter: Well, you're here, I'm here, Alex is here, Zash is here and Arc's here.
  30. Kev 20% of those are Board, so that's got to be good enough.
  31. Zash :D
  32. Kev I wonder if Peter or I was to start the meeting, anyone would realise something was wrong...
  33. Alex Im am only visitor
  34. arcriley thats the point.
  35. Kev Alex: Yes. So're most of us. We only have one of Board here.
  36. Kev (Arc)
  37. Ashley has joined
  38. arcriley there's 2
  39. Kev Two!
  40. Ashley hey there!
  41. Kev Hi Ashley.
  42. Kev With only one more Boarder, we'd have a quorum.
  43. arcriley i got bear's phone#
  44. stpeter http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/the-xsf-board-of-directors/ needs to be updated
  45. stpeter that might be one topic :)
  46. stpeter if anyone needs wordpress access, I can set you up
  47. stpeter that way you can edit things yourself
  48. arcriley that'd be good
  49. arcriley well i cant reach bear
  50. stpeter I suppose Florian is at LeWeb?
  51. Alex Yes he is
  52. bear wow - I put forward that it takes some serious *skill* to muck up timezones like I do every week
  53. arcriley and we got quorum
  54. arcriley hey bear!
  55. Kev Afternoon bear:)
  56. bear afternoon all
  57. bear oh - LeWeb - I guess we won't be seeing florian any time soon
  58. stpeter arcriley: check your email for WordPress credentials
  59. arcriley stpeter, got it thanks :-)
  60. bear do we have something to discuss with Florian at LeWeb?
  61. stpeter bear: no, but that's why he's not here, I assume
  62. bear may be a very fast meeting (which is ok IMO) - anyone have something they wish to put onto the agenda?
  63. Kev Board openness :)
  64. Alex Is this the 2nd board meeting in this new term?
  65. Ashley i think peter wanted to put the "update the wiki" item
  66. stpeter bear: not really -- FOSDEM is coming up so we have preparations to make
  67. Alex has left
  68. Ashley put forth
  69. bear updating the wiki makes sense, I can do that later today
  70. stpeter http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/the-xsf-board-of-directors/ actually
  71. stpeter not wiki.xmpp.org
  72. bear yea, it's a wp page IIRC
  73. stpeter yes
  74. bear that and a post saying who the board and council is for 2013
  75. bear makes a note to do that later
  76. arcriley I'm updating that page as we speak
  77. stpeter bear: yes indeed
  78. stpeter arcriley: great
  79. bear nice
  80. bear should we try to meet next week or wait till the 19th?
  81. arcriley next week
  82. arcriley the closer we get to the holidays the harder it'll be to get quorum
  83. bear any opposition to next week?
  84. bear peter - can you update the calendar to have a meeting for next week?
  85. stpeter I might not be able to show up next week at this time, but I can update the calendar for sure
  86. arcriley anyone know where a blurb about Jason can be found?
  87. bear only the text he created for his application
  88. bear peter - if you are not present next week, is there anything specific you want to cover for fosdem prep?
  89. bear how about this - I'll email members, and specifically florian, to make sure that next week is good for a fosdem update in a short bit
  90. stpeter bear: I told Kev that I would send out a call for participation
  91. bear yea, I was just now reading the council log...
  92. stpeter (sorry, I am prepping for some training that I am about to present IRL)
  93. arcriley bear, this is your fourth term on the board correct?
  94. bear np - if I was on time this would not be an issue ;)
  95. bear sounds right
  96. bear ok, then let's do that call for participation (great idea!) and schedule a meeting for next week to keep the habit going
  97. bear if it's a short meeting fine
  98. bear anything else we need to cover now?
  99. Kev And then you'll schedule board openness? :)
  100. Kev (Although I saw that you sent a reminder of the meeting to members@, which is on the right path, thanks :))
  101. bear i'm going to email the board to propose that we make the board mailing list open
  102. stpeter Kev: as in opening up the board@ list?
  103. arcriley hey at least we'll have accomplished getting the board page updated :-)
  104. arcriley that hadn't happened in over a year
  105. Kev stpeter: Yes, that's what I'd quite like.
  106. arcriley Kev, you know there's nothing on that list right?
  107. stpeter arcriley: indeed :)
  108. Kev arcriley: Nope, no way of knowing that :
  109. Kev :)
  110. Kev (Well, that's not true, I /do/ have access to the archives, but only nefariously and I haven't looked)
  111. arcriley i assume its just for exec session stuff, everything so far has been on members
  112. bear ok, action items then: peter to email call for fosdem, arc to update board page, me to email about this meeting's minutes and next week, me to email about opening up board mailing list
  113. arcriley lol
  114. Alex has joined
  115. stpeter ok
  116. Kev arcriley: In the past there's been far too little communication about what Board are doing with members. If the solution is that everything happens on members@ instead of board@, I'm OK with that. Just not when meetings are arranged on board@ and members have no idea when they're happening etc.
  117. stpeter I need to disappear in order to start presenting yet
  118. Kev Thanks bear :)
  119. arcriley I think every board needs an exec session list, but yea, meetings/etc have been posted to members@
  120. bear ok, with no objections to the above, shall we gavel this meeting done?
  121. arcriley seconded.
  122. bear ok, thanks all for a good meeting :)
  123. Kev Thanks chaps.
  124. bear (and for kicking me in the head to remind me about timezones (again!))
  125. bear goes to find some breakfast
  126. arcriley breakfast at noon, long night eh?
  127. bear yea, I'm more on west coast time than I am east lately
  128. arcriley and you don't have hoards of highschoolers with mercurial push access working on your codebases in a race for points lol
  129. bear you be crazy son :)
  130. stpeter s/yet/here/ but whatever
  131. arcriley they've done fantastic work tho.
  132. stpeter oAo
  133. stpeter has left
  134. arcriley http://www.google-melange.com/gci/org/google/gci2012/copyleftgames -- 77 tasks done in 8 days
  135. bear nice!
  136. arcriley I think I may have convinced wesnoth to switch to xmpp for their network stack too
  137. Zash !!!
  138. arcriley Zash, trying to promote xmpp to build an open, federated game network similar to psn, xbox live, etc
  139. arcriley wesnoth is an easy target since they're using sdl-net and trying to migrate away from sdl
  140. Zash approves of this
  141. arcriley yea I think the gains can be massive. especially since, for wesnoth, they gain voice chat via opus
  142. arcriley most free software games don't have voice chat right now
  143. Kev arcriley: Do you want me to put you in contact with the Evolve guys?
  144. arcriley but being able to reuse their xmpp roster, being able to chat with friends in different games or using standard im clients, etc - very slick
  145. arcriley kev, Evolve?
  146. Kev Because they're XMPP-based gaming social networking.
  147. arcriley not aware of them
  148. Kev They're not Free stuff, although they're free.
  149. Kev Don't know if it'd be a good fit, but it might be.
  150. Kev They've got matchmaking code that'll work across their entire game catalogue and things.
  151. Kev https://www.evolvehq.com/welcome
  152. arcriley did they extend pubsub for this?
  153. Kev No.
  154. Kev I don't know what stanzas they're using behind the scenes, but I know it's not pubsub.
  155. arcriley so no personal eventing, etc either
  156. Kev (They're using Swift's XMPP library, which is why I know them - plus they described the matchmaking they needed and I coded it up in a weekend because it sounded fun)
  157. Kev Right.
  158. Kev I don't know if they'd be interested in working with the likes of Wesnoth, or if Wesnoth would be interested in working with them, etc.
  159. Kev Just that they're working on the other side of this space (the social side, rather than the game side).
  160. arcriley not just wesnoth, i maintain a game engine which is based on xmpp
  161. Kev Right, I knew that, I was just trying to find a more convenient monicker than 'all those Free games projects that need networking code and would benefit from a social side to it'.
  162. Alex I have worked with many gaming companies over the last years'many of them already use xmpp under the hood
  163. Kev Yeah. PSN too, IIRC.
  164. Kev The difference being that there /might/ be some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement possible with Evolve. But maybe not.
  165. arcriley something to look into in the future, we do need to write up a xep on what we're doing with pep and game discovery
  166. Kev The thing about the Evolve approach to matchmaking is that it actually tries to make the matches itself (and it's quite good at it, he says commpletely immodestly).
  167. Kev So instead of you looking at what all your friends want, e.g. by publishing in their PEP, you register your interest with the matchmaker and then it comes back to you when it's found you a match.
  168. arcriley Kev, is this documented somewhere we can look at?
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  170. Kev So if you want to say "I want a game of Team Fortress 2 with between 17 and 23 players, or a game of PySomething with 3 players, or a game of Wesnoth with 6 players" it'll try to find something it can do to get you in a game.
  171. Kev arcriley: Nope, not at all.
  172. Kev They're not opensource guys, they've not published anything like 'how this all works' so far - I nearly got them to come to the XMPP Summit to talk about it, but failed this year.
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  174. Kev arcriley: I think if we could get some sort of XEPpified protocol for interacting with it, it wouldn't matter so much that it's closed source (and their stuff adds additional value, so maybe they'd be game). If we could get it federating so people could use their normal XMPP accounts, the world would be a lovely place.
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  176. arcriley Kev, i agree
  177. arcriley generally though closed niche services like this rarely want to invite competition
  178. Kev Yes. I can't say I know they'd go for it, but ISTM it would strengthen their position as well if they could add a load of Free games that interface with the social network of which they're a part.
  179. arcriley true
  180. arcriley we don't have those games right now though. need a bit more dev work first
  181. arcriley though at the pace these kids are screaming through tasks
  182. Kev Having it all federated and interoperable satisfies my Openness requirements. If Evolve is the big significant non-silo in all of this, I'm happy.
  183. arcriley I actually had 2 of them ask if we had any assembly they could do
  184. Kev (And the various other things they have, like the overlay, the VOIP, the VPN etc. mean they have value add over a generic free solution, etc.)
  185. Kev Hah, that's not bad going.
  186. arcriley Kev, yea though they should really be using Jingle/Opus not their own voip/silk setup
  187. Kev No argument - although I do know why they did what they did.
  188. Kev They already had all the VPN virtual party stuff, so they just do LAN-ish stuff and don't need much negotiation.
  189. Kev (Also, Swiften doesn't have Jingle VOIP support yet :))
  190. arcriley yea you should get on that
  191. Kev That and a million other things, yes.
  192. Kev It'd be fun to create some wrapper around Swiften so game devs could just drop it into place and have in-game VOIP, chat, etc. and the game just needed to provide the UI.
  193. arcriley so as much as i hate promoting vaporware we're starting to work on a OpenSLES stack for desktops, and pushing the khronos group's spec maintainer to add Opus as a codec flag. the signifigance here is it'd ease jingle code portability. one of the hardest things to do is interface with audio hardware
  194. Kev At what level is this?
  195. Kev C/C++/Python?
  196. Kev Because yes, if the audio/video interfacing was easy, we'd probably have done Jingle by now.
  197. arcriley C - OS-level. OpenSLES is a standard component of Android 2.3+
  198. Kev Ah, OK.
  199. arcriley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSL_ES
  200. Kev Well, when you have it working on a desktop and I can grab it and try it, please shout.
  201. arcriley it handles audio in/out, codecs, syncing, etc
  202. Kev Audio only?
  203. arcriley yea it stands for Open Sound Library for Embedded Systems. the sound counterpart to OpenGLES
  204. arcriley but its designed such that it can work with OpenMAX
  205. arcriley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenMAX
  206. Kev Yep, I'm there.
  207. arcriley actually for general purpose jingle openmax would make more sense and there's already desktop libraries for it
  208. arcriley android support for openmax is very, very new though.
  209. Kev Android support isn't so important for me, it's Win/Lin/Mac that I care about most :)
  210. arcriley Yea and you don't need 3d audio like games do
  211. Kev Yep.
  212. arcriley AFAIK OpenMax is already implemented on win/lin/mac so there ya go
  213. Kev Ooooh :)
  214. Kev Now, I wonder how bad the API is :)
  215. arcriley its not bad at all.
  216. arcriley khronos group is kinda known for being fairly basic
  217. arcriley and one thing you know is that the api is sure the hell not going to change.
  218. arcriley opengl 1.1 is still supported after all these years. :-)
  219. arcriley though i may be tainted since i work with their stuff every day.
  220. Kev So http://limoa.sourceforge.net/ is the desktop implementation you were saying I should look at?
  221. arcriley there's a few. i haven't used any of them
  222. arcriley we may add openmax support to boom eventually, but right now the target is 3d audio
  223. Kev Boom?
  224. arcriley http://hg.copyleftgames.org/boom
  225. arcriley the OpenSLES implementation we just started last night.
  226. Kev Ah.
  227. Kev AGPL isn't Swift-friendly anyway.
  228. arcriley AGPL doesn't extend to the user level from os-level
  229. Kev ?
  230. arcriley have you read the license?
  231. Kev No, I just know it as GPL plus a bit, and Swift doesn't use GPL inbound.
  232. arcriley Boom is a "System Library". the AGPLv3 only extends to it, its build system, libraries it uses, etc.
  233. arcriley the API, via the headers, are actually under a permissive license and freely available from many sources. it doesn't matter which implementation you build on - the license doesn't apply to your code.
  234. Kev It does matter if we're shipping this stuff, though - we couldn't, for example, ship to the Apple App Store, if we wanted to, if we were bundling an (A)GPL library.
  235. Kev Not that I think we want to.
  236. arcriley that's kinda the point. :-) but you shouldn't need to, Apple should already be providing their own OpenSLES stack.
  237. arcriley also you realize that bundling two packages together in one distributable does not, itself, apply the GPL right?
  238. arcriley read the license. specifically the parts of section 1 regarding Standard Interface and System Libraries, and section 5 on aggregate works (combining multiple pieces of software in the same zipfile or cd)
  239. arcriley moot in regards to apple's itunes store since they forbid copyleft work from their store, so *they* wouldn't let you upload a AGPLv3 component
  240. arcriley but for something like windows, you could distribute even a proprietary app that included a libSLES.dll created by boom in the same installable, so long as none of the custom extensions we supply were used (which are out of scope for the "standard interface")
  241. Kev arcriley: It means that parts of the distributable are under the GPL - and you can't use GPL in appstore-like-things, because of the requirement to distribute everything needed, including the encryption keys.
  242. Kev (Sorry, wandered away)
  243. arcriley yea as i said, apple wouldn't allow it
  244. arcriley but again, apple should have their own OpenMax/OpenSLES implementations. you shouldn't be providing that to them.
  245. Kev Not just Apple wouldn't allow it (although they explicitly forbid it), but that anything that involves code signing prohibits it.
  246. Kev And yes, Apple probably do - but that's the reason we don't use GPLish stuff. As you say, it should be available on platforms already and the interface is open, so it's OK, but that wouldn't specifically allow us to use Boom in these cases.
  247. Kev (Just some other OpenSLES implementation)
  248. arcriley you don't *use* any specific implementation, you use the standard interface, because its a standard, and let the distro or OS people decide what implementation of it to provide
  249. arcriley thats what makes this a system library :-)
  250. Kev Yes, I understand.
  251. arcriley the point of it is, because of it, OpenSLES becomes a valid target for cross platform software, rather than having to use one of the many OpenAL libraries that are poorly maintained and largely bitrotten from neglect
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