Wednesday, September 18, 2013
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[08:11:54] <weizfan> hi,guys
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[08:49:36] <weizfan_1111> anybody here
[08:51:18] <weizfan_1111> oh,lazy guys
[08:51:35] <weizfan_1111> why not getting up
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[09:01:57] <Alex> weizfan_1111: how can we help you?
[09:03:11] <weizfan_1111> i tired of silent
[09:03:54] <weizfan_1111> why not say something
[09:03:57] <Alex> join another room, this is the room of the XSF here, if the XSF has nothing to discuss its silent
[09:04:35] <weizfan_1111> okay
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[09:19:20] <weizfan_1111> Alex,can you recommend a c++ library for server?
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[09:20:22] <Alex> jdev@conference.jabber.org is the venue to ask this question
[09:20:42] <Alex> its all about xmpp development, many developers hang out there
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[15:32:26] <Ashley> hey all — is it board meeting time?
[15:32:49] <stpeter> yes
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[15:33:30] <arcriley> With an audience no less
[15:33:31] <bear> the council meeting is still going, so we may have a couple of minutes before starting
[15:33:37] <stpeter> oh weird
[15:33:43] <stpeter> I don't see bear here
[15:33:47] <stpeter> might need to rejoin
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[15:33:51] <arcriley> he's a moderator
[15:33:52] <Ashley> bear is in the list?
[15:34:05] <Ashley> s/?/.
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[15:35:01] <stpeter> ah, that's better
[15:35:06] <stpeter> presence issues
[15:35:22] <stpeter> anyway, joined from another account
[15:35:35] <bear> swift has been going into a zombie mode when my laptop hibernates
[15:36:07] <Kev> It probably doesn't notice until TCP times out. We should fix that.
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[15:37:05] <bear> Ashley, Arc and myself - present
[15:37:16] <bear> Florian?
[15:37:29] <bear> Jason?
[15:37:59] <Ashley> i see Florian in the room roster
[15:38:01] <stpeter> Jason didn't reply
[15:39:26] *bear forgets if 3 or 4 is requied for quorum
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[15:39:43] <Florian> Hi all
[15:39:44] <stpeter> simple majority for a quorum
[15:39:54] <stpeter> hi Florian :-)
[15:40:05] <arcriley> well we certainly have quorum now
[15:40:10] <bear> 4 out of 5 - let's call that a win and start
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[15:40:27] <Ashley> drumroll
[15:41:06] <bear> remember to update your bios for the 2014 board election folks
[15:41:10] <Ashley> was the primary agenda item engagement with that other standards body? iirc
[15:41:39] <bear> yes, that is the reason for today's meeting - for Peter to give us the info on what they want and what resources will be required
[15:41:50] <stpeter> right
[15:42:01] *** arcriley shows as "online"
[15:42:08] <stpeter> so, we received a "liaison request" from a technical committee at ISO
[15:42:16] <stpeter> TC 122, which does work on logistics and such
[15:42:29] <stpeter> it's sort-of "Internet of Things" related
[15:42:43] <stpeter> now, the ISO is a lot more formal than the XSF :-)
[15:43:26] <Florian> :)
[15:43:29] <stpeter> however, essentially they would like some folks to review their work on a usage of XMPP for notifications related to things like package delivery and vehicle tracking and such
[15:43:53] <stpeter> unfortunately, regular folks can't just join those discussions
[15:44:08] <stpeter> because of their access controls over things they are working on
[15:44:53] <stpeter> so they would like to establish a liaison relationship, which would enable us to assign a few people to participate in their work and sanity-check what they're developing before it gets released
[15:45:17] <bear> is the liason allowed to send the info to others for review?
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[15:45:34] <stpeter> as I understand it, we would assign two or three people to review / participate
[15:45:41] <stpeter> there are a few questions that arise, of course
[15:45:56] <stpeter> e.g., how do we assign people (ask for volunteers among the membership)?
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[15:46:09] <Peter Waher> (I can mention that myself and Joachim have worked with them for larger part of the year)
[15:46:16] <stpeter> since it's IoT-related, some people here might be interested
[15:46:26] <Peter Waher> (and that original participation request was sent on the IoT mailing list about a year ago)
[15:46:42] <stpeter> Peter Waher: ah, are you guys participating already through normal ISO processes?
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[15:47:32] <Peter Waher> yes, through what is called IEEE/IEC/ISO P1451
[15:47:39] <Peter Waher> http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/InternetOfThings
[15:47:42] <Peter Waher> this is related
[15:47:50] <stpeter> another question is whether people we assign to be liaison experts are taken as speaking for the XSF, in which case we might want to have a consensus process for formulating our feedback
[15:47:55] <Peter Waher> they are various groups looking at similar thing
[15:47:55] <Peter Waher> s
[15:48:06] <stpeter> Peter Waher: yes, IoT stuff is hot
[15:48:33] <stpeter> how we handle these things on our side is up to us — e.g., we could assign just one person if we so please
[15:48:51] <Peter Waher> I'm president of a subgroup, relating to xml & xmpp telegrams
[15:49:08] <stpeter> or we could tell them that they already have some folks involved who know about XMPP and thus we don't see the need for a formal liaison relationship
[15:49:08] <Ashley> do we anticipate changes to XMPP itself, or simply new XEPs?
[15:49:17] <bear> that's why I was asking if the liason is allowed by the rules to pass on information for review
[15:49:25] <stpeter> Ashley: not changes to XMPP, and probably not any XEPs
[15:49:34] <Ashley> ok
[15:49:50] <Peter Waher> during the work we've done together, we've proposed XEP 0322-0326
[15:49:57] <stpeter> Peter Waher might know better, but I think they would write a document that says "here's how we're using XMPP for our use cases"
[15:50:09] <Peter Waher> This, they have done
[15:50:15] <stpeter> I see it as similar in some ways to what the OpenADR folks did with OpenADR 2.0
[15:50:16] <Peter Waher> and probably want us to double check
[15:50:18] <Ashley> right, make sense
[15:50:30] <stpeter> Peter Waher: yes, that seems reasonable
[15:50:36] <Florian> right
[15:50:39] <Peter Waher> they have issues with legacy binary encoding of information and tagging
[15:50:59] <stpeter> e.g., I completed a review of the OpenADR 2.0 text about XMPP and suggested a few minor fixes, but mostly it seemed reasonable and I told them so
[15:51:00] <Peter Waher> so they probably want a third party to double check before publishing the standard
[15:51:09] <stpeter> yes
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[15:52:15] <stpeter> thus one question is, do we see the need for a liaison relationship?
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[15:52:40] <stpeter> if the Board would like, I'd be happy to be a liaison just to do what Peter suggests about reviewing what they come up with
[15:52:58] <stpeter> unlike OpenADR, ISO is more formal and thus requires a bit more process
[15:53:05] <Dave Cridland> A formal liason relationship would lend us some legitimacy, I'd imagine.
[15:53:09] <Ashley> that seems like a good way to go
[15:53:09] <Florian> I'd say: why not... don't really see any downsides here
[15:53:12] <stpeter> Dave: right
[15:53:14] <Dave Cridland> Which obviously costs us in terms of effort.
[15:53:16] <Florian> Dave Cridland: right
[15:53:21] <arcriley> stpeter are you volunteering?
[15:53:30] <stpeter> it helps to legitimize the XSF, perhaps :-)
[15:54:00] <stpeter> arcriley: yes, I'd volunteer to be a liaison since all it really means is I review yet another standards spec in my life :-)
[15:54:10] <Ashley> i look at it like building our ecosystem
[15:54:13] *** Florian2 has joined the room
[15:54:28] <Florian2> Yeah
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[15:54:41] <Peter Waher> it would be great to build a broader concensus behind any IoT solutions the XSF proposes
[15:54:50] <stpeter> Peter Waher: agreed
[15:54:53] <Peter Waher> and spread knowledge of the area
[15:55:08] <stpeter> Peter Waher: unfortunately we don't have a lot of participants who know that space very well
[15:55:14] <stpeter> but that's a separate issue :-)
[15:55:30] <Peter Waher> I'm available for any comments, questions or doubts you may have
[15:55:37] <Peter Waher> And I'm sure Joachim is as well
[15:55:42] <Kev> Presumably that's what they're discussing, though, and what *we're* needed for is the XMPP side
[15:55:47] <stpeter> yes
[15:55:50] <Kev> and we do have some amount of knowledge about XMPP :)
[15:55:51] <Dave Cridland> I'd personally suggest that Peter Waher, if he's willing, be the actual liason, and have the review done by a smallish team (and/or the Council)
[15:55:57] <stpeter> it seems to me that they want a sanity check
[15:56:12] <Kev> In which case we'd probably want to pick someone well versed in the XMPP side of things.
[15:56:23] <Kev> (e.g. stpeter)
[15:56:32] <Florian2> Yeah
[15:56:45] <stpeter> Dave: well, Peter and Joachim already participating, it seems
[15:56:53] <stpeter> ^ + are
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[15:57:15] <stpeter> Peter Waher: are you able to participate fully already?
[15:57:26] <Peter Waher> I can be the liason, but for them to be satisfied, it would be excellent if stpeter or the council could approve by double checking any recommendations
[15:57:27] <stpeter> heck, I could probably participate with my Cisco hat on
[15:57:28] <Peter Waher> yes
[15:57:37] <Dave Cridland> Right, but I'd expect the liason to be in the awkward position of acting as translator more than anything else.
[15:57:55] <stpeter> Dave: translator how?
[15:58:05] <Dave Cridland> Translating both XMPPisms and XSFisms (and ISOisms)
[15:58:18] <Peter Waher> It should be remembered that this request is probably originating in the desire to double check what has been proposed by myself and Joachim
[15:58:26] <Peter Waher> in a more formal manner
[15:58:43] <Dave Cridland> Ah. That might be awkward. :-)
[15:59:08] <Florian2> Ah, right
[15:59:15] <Peter Waher> so, If somebody well established in the XMPP community (i.e. stpeter) or the entire XFS council would review any suggestions, it would address their concerns
[15:59:15] <Dave Cridland> "Yes, we'll check Peter Waher's work. We suggest Peter Waher should check it."
[15:59:22] <stpeter> hehehe
[15:59:24] <Peter Waher> :)
[15:59:32] <Florian2> :)
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[15:59:49] <Florian2> Would anyone from the council be interested?
[16:00:06] <stpeter> Peter Waher: it might not be that they have any concerns with the feedback you've provided, but they don't know XMPP and they want to be Sure™
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[16:00:07] <Florian2> Alongside stpeter
[16:00:27] <stpeter> this is my sense of things, anyway
[16:00:39] <Peter Waher> I believe so too
[16:00:42] <Peter Waher> however, there
[16:00:48] <Peter Waher> 's one item of concern
[16:00:51] <Kev> Florian2: I guess I could.
[16:00:52] <Florian2> Actually, we may not even need 2 people from the XSF
[16:00:57] <Peter Waher> and that's legacy binary encodings
[16:01:10] <stpeter> hey, we have binary XMPP, no problem :P
[16:01:24] <Peter Waher> And I've been quite stubborn in explaining why it's not a good idea to continue down that road
[16:01:32] <Florian2> stpeter: lol
[16:01:32] <Peter Waher> for interoperability's sake
[16:01:45] *stpeter nods
[16:02:03] <Peter Waher> I've proposed the use of bits of binary, for instance, but it would create a solution nobody would be interested in
[16:02:05] <stpeter> but it's not really for us to tell them what bindings they need to support, right?
[16:02:09] *** arcriley shows as "online"
[16:02:11] <Peter Waher> exactly
[16:02:20] <Peter Waher> i've tries to explain pros and cons for different solutions
[16:02:29] <Peter Waher> and what I personally believe is the correct solution
[16:02:43] <Peter Waher> now, there are 3 proposed solutions
[16:02:51] <stpeter> it seems that their decisions about old binary vs. new XML (aka "legacy JSON") are something that's up to them
[16:02:59] <Peter Waher> 1) The XEPS 0322-0326
[16:03:11] <Peter Waher> 2) Bits of binary (not recommended)
[16:03:33] <stpeter> (although we might suggest that they might not want to send their binary encoding over XMPP because it makes more sense to send the XML representation)
[16:03:35] <Peter Waher> 3) a combination, where they use telegrams in (1), but encode binary field names using some kind of urn scheme
[16:03:56] <stpeter> ah
[16:04:05] <stpeter> well, this is something to work out in conversation with them
[16:04:13] <Peter Waher> I guess, if somebody could validate the pros and cons, they could feel safer taking a decision
[16:04:25] <stpeter> I'd prefer not to talk about the specifics much here because it's their IPR and their processes aren't all that open
[16:04:38] *** bear shows as "online"
[16:04:41] <Peter Waher> (y)
[16:04:54] <stpeter> (which itself raises an issue about broader review)
[16:05:08] <Peter Waher> They've sent us all documents, but we cannot forward them
[16:05:20] <Peter Waher> But they have no problems sending them to any participants
[16:05:42] <arcriley> so... the liason cannot forward them to the council for review?
[16:05:47] <stpeter> but if we can assign a few people or just me or whoever to advise them, then personally I don't see the need to open up the review to all XSF members or whatever (although perhaps we'd see advice from the Council somehow if we see the need)
[16:05:55] <stpeter> arcriley: good question
[16:06:18] <stpeter> arcriley: I just thought about that 10 minutes ago and I do not know the answer, but I can find out
[16:06:19] <Peter Waher> we've been clear on that point too: Any XEPs or documents leaving the XSF will be in the public domain
[16:06:36] <arcriley> if thats the case why don't we just appoint the entire council - that way they can discuss and review while still complying with their closed process
[16:06:45] <Peter Waher> They have discussed the possibility in publishing the documents in an open forum too...
[16:06:56] <Dave Cridland> Council discussions are (or have been, historically) public.
[16:07:11] *** arcriley shows as "online"
[16:07:27] <stpeter> arcriley: that's a possibility, although Council membership changes and as I understand it they'd want people to be appointed as individuals
[16:07:28] <Peter Waher> but today, the documents are still not public. Only they can send them to any participants
[16:07:48] <Dave Cridland> While it's within the Board's remit, I suspect, to propose the Council could hold those in camera, I'm not sure it's a precedent I'd like the Board to be setting.
[16:08:17] <stpeter> right
[16:08:20] <Peter Waher> I've been very consistent regarding openness
[16:08:22] <arcriley> ISO has got to have some precident in working with organizations like ours
[16:08:22] <Florian2> Yeah
[16:08:26] <Peter Waher> They know it and respect it
[16:08:33] <Peter Waher> So I believe we can push that point
[16:08:38] <bear> this would have to be not a Council issue, even if all of the Council are part of the liason team
[16:09:01] <stpeter> well, the easiest thing is to appoint one or two people as individuals and not say that the XMPP Council will be reviewing things as a body
[16:09:13] <bear> that's what I was trying to say
[16:09:25] <stpeter> because I agree with Dave about not wanting to set precedents about working in huggermugger
[16:09:31] <stpeter> or in camera or whatever :P
[16:09:40] <Ashley> hey guys — i have to jump to another meeting
[16:10:21] <Dave Cridland> stpeter, "in camera" - s'latin, innit?
[16:10:29] <bear> Ashley - are you +1 on liason in general
[16:10:44] <Ashley> yes!
[16:11:01] <bear> k, more details to follow on the list, thanks for attending while you could
[16:11:17] <arcriley> it sounds like there's some questions to be determined before we can really move forward in a meaningful way though
[16:11:38] <bear> it sounds like we can respond "yes, but we have some followup questions"
[16:11:47] <arcriley> yup yup
[16:11:55] <stpeter> that seems reasonable
[16:12:03] <stpeter> "yes in principle"
[16:12:13] *** arcriley shows as "online"
[16:13:04] <Florian2> Yup, sounds good
[16:13:12] <stpeter> so shall I work with the Board on a suitable reply and some follow-up questions?
[16:13:25] <bear> +1
[16:13:46] <stpeter> ok
[16:13:52] <arcriley> +1
[16:13:59] <stpeter> happy to have that discussion on the members@ list for transparency
[16:14:04] <Florian2> +1
[16:14:13] <stpeter> transparency is good
[16:14:19] <bear> members@ works for this - will get more folks involved
[16:14:22] <Peter Waher> I would appreciate if you could cc me any any correspondence
[16:14:48] <Florian2> bear: yeah
[16:14:49] <Peter Waher> feels awkward having to ask them what XSF sent to them, when being part of XSF and their working groups
[16:15:16] <arcriley> lol
[16:15:19] <stpeter> Peter Waher: if we discuss it on the members@ list, what we'll send will be in the open anyway :-)
[16:15:23] <bear> i'm all for peter cc'ing the members list in all mailings TBH
[16:15:40] <Peter Waher> (y)
[16:15:51] <Florian2> bear: +1
[16:15:54] <stpeter> super
[16:16:14] <bear> should we meet again in a week to followup or will you need more time?
[16:16:35] <stpeter> that should be fine — I think we can work things out on the members@ list
[16:16:39] <stpeter> before then
[16:16:49] <stpeter> but scheduling a follow-up seems fine
[16:17:05] <bear> k, i'll email the list about a meeting next week
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[16:17:57] <Florian2> bear: great
[16:18:23] <bear> peter - do we have more to discuss and do you have the needed information?
[16:18:45] <stpeter> I have what I need and I don't personally have any other business, but we might want to ask if anyone else does :-)
[16:19:14] <bear> :)
[16:19:29] <bear> anything else to discuss/add ?
[16:19:44] <Florian2> Not on my end besides looks like FOSDEM is all good
[16:19:54] <stpeter> BTW, thanks to everyone for the input and questions about our topic of interest, that was all good feedback
[16:20:10] <stpeter> I'm working out final details on a place to meet in Portland for the next Summit
[16:20:31] <stpeter> so that should be nailed down very soon (this week)
[16:20:33] <bear> the summit in portland should be very active
[16:20:57] <stpeter> yes, lots of security topics of interest these days
[16:21:07] <Florian2> :)
[16:21:42] *bear waits a couple more minutes before making the call to close the meeting
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[16:24:03] <bear> k, I think we can call today's meeting done then
[16:24:19] <Florian2> Alrighty :)
[16:24:27] <bear> thanks all for attending and thank you Peter for the work on this issue
[16:24:49] <Florian2> Thanks all
[16:24:55] <Florian2> See you next week
[16:24:58] <bear> i'll do the minutes email after I get done yelling at some servers
[16:25:05] <stpeter> great, I'll add the meeting to the calendar this time
[16:25:05] <Peter Waher> thanks, bye
[16:25:10] <stpeter> thanks Peter
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[16:27:18] <stpeter> time to head to the office, bbiab
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