Friday, November 22, 2013
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:24:02] <fippo> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg09968.html
[07:24:15] <fippo> the current jabber logs of the ietf don't even store the participants full jid
[07:29:28] <fippo> zash: assuming that jabber.ietf.org moves to a certain muc implementation... how much effort would it take to make some kind of data form that acts as blue sheet?
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[07:32:59] <Zash> fippo: I'd worry more about clients
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[07:38:07] <fippo> hey lance... you and bear absolutely want to poke the rtcweb chairs that you have a vote in the process because you were in the jabber room ;-)
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[07:38:19] <fippo> this whole thing is ... not going to work.
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[07:39:23] <Lance> hrm? bit lost at what's going on, fippo
[07:39:34] <Zash> IETF, voting, what?
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[07:44:08] <fippo> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg09922.html might give you the context
[07:44:41] <fippo> there is no resolution to the h.264 vs vp8 debate, so there is going to be a vote
[07:45:28] <Zash> for MTI?
[07:45:42] <fippo> one of the question that came up is whether people who participated remotely in the jabber room are eligible
[07:45:45] <fippo> yeah
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[08:10:17] <dwd> Vote?
[08:10:44] <dwd> Oh, that's an appeal right there.
[08:16:30] <dwd> Hahaha. As PSA has already said.
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[08:25:34] <fippo> dwd: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg09958.html -- maybe inky can ship that module
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[08:37:47] <ralphm> haha
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[08:54:42] <intosi> fippo: heh!
[08:56:11] *Kev bins his "Eris day" reply to operators@ before sending it.
[08:59:35] <fippo> kev: http://my.pages.de/pub/net/irc/history/killer.c.gz ;-)
[09:00:47] <Kev> We are, at least, in a somewhat better position than that.
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[09:32:13] <ralphm> fippo: good question, re google
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[09:43:32] <fippo> i'm not opposed to adding exceptions based on SRV records
[09:43:40] <fippo> but I am somewhat opposed to doing that
[09:43:52] <fippo> only to find out they're going to shut the whole thing down
[09:44:28] <Kev> I don't entirely understand why Google is special here (I partly do, but not entirely).
[09:44:50] <Kev> If folks believe that it is morally wrong to let their users communicate over non-TLS links, then that it's Google isn't relevant.
[09:44:54] <fippo> kev: 20% of deployed servers are apps afaik
[09:45:23] <dwd> I'm writing exactly that to the list by co-inky-dink.
[09:45:25] <Kev> If people believe it isn't morally wrong to let their users communicate over non-TLS if it's someone the users actually want to communicate with, they should add exceptions for all non-TLS domains, not just Google's.
[09:45:44] <Kev> (Where "exceptions for all non-TLS domains" is what we have at the moment)
[09:46:05] <dwd> Now quite.
[09:46:08] <dwd> Not quite.
[09:46:19] <fippo> kev: would be interesting to get the numbers on that
[09:46:20] <Kev> I'm not at all keen, as I've been saying for ages, on cutting out non-TLS S2S while we know it's being used.
[09:46:29] <fippo> can you get a list of all non-tls domains from jabber.org?
[09:46:32] <Kev> dwd: Explicit whitelisting, MITM, etc.
[09:46:38] <Kev> fippo: I do not believe so.
[09:46:53] <dwd> Kev, We have TLS exceptions for all domains. Not just non-TLS ones.
[09:47:26] <Kev> And with enough words that I can parse that? :)
[09:49:20] <dwd> Will you connect to dave.cridland.net if it doesn't offer TLS at all?
[09:49:26] <dwd> (Answer: Yes)
[09:49:52] <dwd> Even though it *does* offer TLS, with a proper CA issued certificate, as well.
[09:52:26] <dwd> Anyway, mail sent, with More Words™.
[09:52:57] <Kev> Then yes, that's what I was saying.
[09:53:15] <Kev> That explicit whitelisting prevents a MITM downgrade on servers that do support stuff.
[09:54:07] <Kev> So explicit whitelisting isn't quite what we have now, it's true.
[09:56:02] <dwd> I'm wondering if just a DNS record might help. Not mad keen on filling DNS with rubbish, mind.
[09:56:31] <Kev> dnssec-signed, presumably.
[09:57:32] <dwd> The case where an attacker removes the DNS record leaves us in the same situation as we're in now, though, so while DNSSEC feels desirable, I think an unsigned record would still be useful.
[09:58:13] <Kev> Yes.
[09:58:22] <Kev> I don't see a problem with getting this deployed by the new year :)
[09:58:57] <dwd> Hmmm... Actually we could use unsigned DANE records for this.
[10:01:50] <Kev> ralphm: Like IPv6 day, if IPv6 day turned off IPv4 for the day.
[10:12:42] <dwd> BTW, just to float a t-shirt idea for FOSDEM - what about a set of t-shirts each in a different colour, with the slogan of "Give me a Jingle on my Jabber!", and the (old, original) Jabber logo? This somewhat presumes we'd want to push the Jabber name for the deployed federation.
[10:17:33] <Lloyd> Another idea: xmpp/jabber stickers, I found some spare space on my laptop :)
[10:22:35] <intosi> I like the bulb and jabber name :)
[10:23:27] <intosi> And we say stickers every year, and only managed to make some once.
[10:24:30] <Lloyd> Laura had some organised for surevine recently, I'm sure she could help here - I didn't say a word though ;)
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[10:39:19] <intosi> I guess Laura is now volunteered for the FOSDEM crew ;)
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[11:00:49] <ralphm> dwd: I'm +1 on Jabber theming. In the past I made a SVG version of both the bulb and later the jabber.org logo, after hunting down the actual font used in the original JSF logo.
[11:01:25] <ralphm> For stickers, I'd just do the bulb, no text.
[11:02:22] <ralphm> Kev: well, yeah, I suppose. They haven't gotten to disabling IPv4 just yet. We move faster :-D
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[11:04:05] <ralphm> dwd, intosi, Lloyd: we started this wiki page just after last FOSDEM. Let's use this page to do some planning. http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/index.php?title=FOSDEM_Checklist
[11:04:37] <dwd> Lloyd, I'm intending on stickers.
[11:05:19] <dwd> Lloyd, Actually I was looking at both XMPP/XSF stickers and Jabber ones, but I was also aiming to get some "Hello my jid is" stickers done if I can.
[11:06:11] <ralphm> dwd: but everyone and their dog will intercept your communications!
[11:06:42] <dwd> Woof?
[11:08:59] <dwd> Oh, and I'm looking at prices for some zippy hoodies, seeing as the non-zippy ones seem to have been a hit. My wife tends to wear my older/smaller one a lot, which amuses me. But zippy hoodies aren't going to be cheap.
[11:09:39] <dwd> Hmmm... "Federation is my favourite F word"...
[11:12:56] <intosi> Added schwag part to the wiki page.
[11:14:03] <dwd> Thanks.
[11:14:37] <dwd> FWIW, I don't want to redo the existing Orange/Grey XMPP Hoodies; I'd rather keep older schwag as "you had to be there".
[11:14:54] <intosi> Editing conflict, I was adding more or less the same text for t-shirts ;)
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[11:15:10] <dwd> Ooops, sorry.
[11:15:13] <intosi> +1 on not redoing previous hits.
[11:15:17] <intosi> And -1 on the oops.
[11:16:36] <Kev> Doesn't mean we can't redo things in the same style, though.
[11:16:40] <Kev> I liked the hoodies a lot.
[11:17:57] <dwd> Right, me too - wearing mine at the moment, and as I say, Kellie was wearing hers yesterday.
[11:18:16] <dwd> She does ban me from wearing mine on the same day. Matching clothes in marrioed couples is, she feels, a bad thing.
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[11:21:41] <ralphm> :-D
[11:22:01] <Kev> If one hoodie is awesome, surely two hoodies is at least twice as awesome.
[11:25:05] <dwd> Like Howard and Hilda from Ever Decreasing Circles?
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[11:29:12] <Kev> I understood each of those words. In isolation.
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[11:32:37] <dwd> Kev, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ever_Decreasing_Circles - An image search for `howard and hilda "ever descreasing circles"' will find you images.
[11:33:19] <intosi> dwd: and why does your wife want to avoid this? ;-)
[11:33:36] <intosi> ralphm: Buurman & buurvrouw :)
[11:34:00] <ralphm> pft
[11:34:27] *Zash is also wearing the hoodie
[11:34:31] <Zash> The. Hoodie.
[11:34:46] <Kev> dwd: Images found. Why is this bad?
[11:35:31] *dwd shakes head in despair.
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[12:02:54] <dwd> How much did we charge for the hoodies last time? I can't remember.
[12:04:14] <ralphm> http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2012-January/006675.html
[12:04:16] <ralphm> I think 15
[12:07:33] <Zash> or was it 20
[12:10:55] <dwd> I suspect 15, in the end. I vaguely recall Florian seeing the weather and suggesting we should raise prices to 20.
[12:11:33] <Zash> They sure are warm :)
[12:12:13] <dwd> They are - we were really lucky in that the supplier gave us these ones instead of the flimsy ones I'd originally been looking at for much the same price.
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[12:16:45] <dwd> http://www.hoodyworld.co.uk/hoodies/college-unisex-onesie ?
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[12:17:25] <Zash> O_o
[12:17:48] <dwd> Well, you liked warm, right?
[12:19:58] <Kev> "Great new onesie at Hoodyworld. Fantastic for school, college and uni. Great for chilling out or looking cool."
[12:20:10] <Kev> There's something here that I can't quite put my finger on.
[12:20:27] <dwd> Yeah.
[12:20:36] <dwd> It's "chilling out". Never be cold in one of those.
[12:21:51] <Zash> Has the dates of the summit been set yet?
[12:22:03] <dwd> Yes, we're doing the two days before.
[12:22:06] <intosi> dwd: hoodies should be warm. I refuse to wear cool hoodies.
[12:22:17] *intosi scratches head about his last remark.
[12:25:06] <Zash> Find ones that make you look hot instead.
[12:25:12] <intosi> And I certainly refuse to wear onesies, cool or not ;)
[12:25:17] <intosi> Zash: +1
[12:26:05] <dwd> intosi, Don't you think the sight of a bunch of XMPP folk all wearing an XMPP branded onesie would stick in people's mind?
[12:26:16] <dwd> No matter how hard they tried to forget?
[12:26:32] <Zash> All publicity is good publicity.
[12:26:56] <intosi> dwd: it would. Nightmares are made of that stuff, I think.
[12:27:31] <dwd> Who am I to disagree?
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[14:10:00] <Zash> XSF Memberbot - Mood: Serious - haha :D
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[14:17:06] <dwd> Zash, I note it's the same PEPness as Alex...
[14:17:35] <Zash> !
[14:18:03] <dwd> Also, I've never seen the Memberbot and Alex in the same room together.
[14:19:00] *Zash notes the nickname field in Alex's vcard
[14:19:14] <Kev> Heh.
[14:19:48] <dwd> Ha!
[14:20:39] <MattJ> My client doesn't support vcards
[14:20:44] <MattJ> I feel like I'm missing out
[14:21:04] <Alex> sometimes I login Memberbot with Psi to modify the roster. Mayve thats the reason
[14:21:14] <dwd> Alex, Sure.
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[14:34:17] <intosi> dwd: we are onto something.
[14:34:26] <intosi> Alex: we believe you, really.
[14:34:42] *intosi wispers: best not to upset our robot overlords.
[14:34:54] <dwd> I, for one, [etc]
[14:35:53] <intosi> Don't we all?
[14:36:06] <intosi> Except for one small village in France, I presume.
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[14:42:58] <dwd> Speaking of robots: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25033172
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[18:53:21] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[19:29:22] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:30:23] *** Alex shows as "online"
[19:33:36] *** Lloyd shows as "online"
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[19:45:34] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:47:26] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:18:39] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:32:22] *** dwd has left the room
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[20:41:52] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:43:30] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[20:59:01] *** tato shows as "online"
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[21:06:16] *** tato shows as "away" and his status message is "sleeping.."
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[21:09:22] *ralphm facepalms for rtcweb
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[21:24:06] *** SouL shows as "online"
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[21:40:26] <MattJ> I'm clearly not on enough IETF lists
[21:43:12] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:47:23] <Kev> Ooh, I know this one.
[21:47:29] <Kev> "Things no-one has said, ever"
[21:48:03] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:49:55] <ralphm> MattJ: oh, please, if you're not already on that list stay away. What a train wreck
[21:51:32] *** stpeter has joined the room
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[21:52:00] <Kev> ralphm: Continuation of the voting debacle?
[21:56:09] *** Ashley Ward shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[22:14:13] <ralphm> Kev: yeah
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[23:04:45] *** Kev shows as "away"
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[23:38:49] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being idle"
[23:50:40] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is "Not available as a result of being idle"