Friday, December 06, 2013
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[00:55:36] <bear> AZXZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ TYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY1U888***************************************xg*****************uuUZ*GgzzzzzggggZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Neustradamusq1&^?"nh9re48 bni<???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////yiut0= i$uUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUYO4444444444444444444444
[00:57:33] <waqas> Thanks bear
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[01:27:58] <bear> oh! sorry about that all - left the laptop lid open and came back to find my cat sleeping on it
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[02:14:44] <Neustradamus> waqas, bear ?
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[08:14:50] <dwd> intosi, Please don't suggest that anywhere near Ralph.
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[08:19:20] <intosi> What, the xmppizza instead of proper restaurant for the event?
[08:19:33] <dwd> Right.
[08:20:07] <intosi> I think Ralph likes the Sint-Jezuseik place as well. There's nights left at FOSDEM/summit for an xmppizza night.
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[14:34:23] <ralphm> intosi: we went to Sizzle Pie's a number of nights in a row in Portland.
[14:35:56] <intosi> Couple of nights in a row. Pity your stomachs.
[14:36:37] <fippo> all nights except the one of the dinner as i reecall
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[14:48:22] <dwd> fippo, Although there were multiple Sizzle Pies involved.
[14:48:33] <dwd> fippo, You know, for a varied diet.
[14:51:13] <intosi> I really missed out.
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[15:18:52] <ralphm> The thing is, they had a reasonable bar, too.
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[15:30:20] <dwd> The one on the east side of the river? Yes.
[15:32:54] <fippo> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4eoitc9vn19bkxn/fukw824CMY#lh:null-jvbrecording3.mp4 -- short screencast about the jitsi videobridge meeting webrtc ;-)
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[16:34:06] <dwd> stpeter, Beat you. :-P
[16:38:04] <stpeter> yeah, I noticed :-)
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[17:40:33] <fippo> mh... are there places with good meat in london?
[17:40:57] <Kev> I suspect there's some good food somewhere.
[17:41:15] <Kev> Perhaps the London theme could be curry instead.
[17:41:54] <intosi> Typical British food, like Tikka Masala
[17:42:04] <Kev> Yes.
[17:42:34] <dwd> Can we go for a really cheap and tacky curry to annoy Mili?
[17:42:59] <Kev> I don't think it matters where, as long as well all have Tikka Masala and proclaim how much we like authentic Indian cuisine.
[17:43:27] <stpeter> Kev/intosi: :-)
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[17:44:25] <dwd> My worry about a London (only) Summit is that FOSDEM is both a useful draw for some, and excellent outreach for us.
[17:44:40] <stpeter> well, we don't have a devroom this year
[17:44:50] <Kev> I think the outreach aspect is dramatically reduced without a devroom.
[17:44:55] <dwd> At least, that's my only explanation for why the XSF, unlike every other SDO, has a strong European contigent.
[17:45:02] <stpeter> oh
[17:45:05] <dwd> contingent, even.
[17:45:40] <stpeter> I think it's because people in Europe (maybe even people in the UK :P ) care more about free software than people in North America
[17:46:41] <Kev> It's not clear to me where cause and effect lies here.
[17:46:44] <dwd> Kev, Yes, I know we don't have a devroom this year, but I'm hoping we'll still have the lounge space, and can use that for mini-talks and demos. That would, hopefully, persuade FOSDEM to give us a room next year again.
[17:46:54] <Kev> Lots of people meet in Europe. Lots of devs are in Europe.
[17:47:10] <Kev> There's certainly an argument that causation may be at play, but which way?
[17:48:26] <Kev> I'm not arguing that there being a lounge again is a bad idea.
[17:48:29] <dwd> I don't think in either way. I think both are effects of the appeal of the FOSDEM activity.
[17:48:51] <Kev> But give me the choice of summit in London or of FOSDEM summit sans Peter, I'm going with the former.
[17:49:05] <dwd> Right, but we needn't make it a choice.
[17:49:18] <Kev> (I might even without the Peter element, because selfish convenience trumps all)
[17:49:29] <Kev> You think we can hold two full summits within 3 weeks of each other?
[17:49:50] <dwd> My other concern is that the only draw in London beyond XMPP is IETF week, and IETF week is slightly more expensive than FOSDEM.
[17:50:24] <Kev> So rather than pre-empting that people won't want to London, why not wait to see what the feel of the list is?
[17:50:56] <dwd> Kev, No, but I think we could easily enough hold face-to-face interop stuffs in Belgium, and a "proper" summit in London.
[17:51:52] <dwd> Incidentally, I *do* think that London would be useful - we could pull along some of the IETF crowd and show them how a proper SDO works. :-)
[17:52:03] <Kev> And that people would want to travel to both? I'm doubtful, but quite open to the idea of a mail to the list seeing what the feeling is.
[17:52:13] <MattJ> dwd, we would need to find space in Brussels...
[17:52:25] <Kev> MattJ: A problem for Board :D
[17:52:36] <intosi> I'd do both ;)
[17:52:36] <MattJ> As if they don't have enough already ;)
[17:52:39] <dwd> Kev, Right. We need to find a space and get someone to pay for it.
[17:53:18] <MattJ> I don't know if I'd certainly do both London and Brussels if the summit moved
[17:53:25] <MattJ> But I'd want to
[17:54:26] <MattJ> Someone pointed out the other day that not having a devroom does give us more opportunity for outreach really, by infiltrating communities in other devrooms
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[17:54:42] <dwd> I'm a little concerned that if we don't do FOSDEM, then nothing at all will happen at FOSDEM, and we'll lose both the chance of a devroom again *and* the lounge space.
[17:54:50] <MattJ> Reaching folks who perhaps dismiss XMPP and wouldn't attend the devroom talks
[17:55:00] <dwd> Oh, and no covert infiltration of other communities too.
[17:56:50] <Kev> dwd: All that you describe is unrelated to having an event outside FOSDEM, isn't it?
[17:57:29] <MattJ> It might (in fact let's be honest: it will) mean that fewer XMPP people attend FOSDEM
[17:57:32] <dwd> If there's no summit, *and* no devroom, are you going to FODEM?
[17:57:43] <dwd> FOSDEM even.
[17:57:54] *fippo summons emil
[17:58:03] <fippo> i think the jitsi people plan to be at fosdem
[17:58:10] <Kev> Me? Very probably not. Although whether I'd go to both a summit in London and one in Brussels as well is also up for debate.
[17:58:39] <MattJ> I don't think two European summits would help all that much
[17:58:49] <MattJ> Most people would probably still attend just one
[17:59:06] <dwd> Yes, true, we'd be competing with ourselves.
[17:59:06] <Kev> Splitting attendance seems more unhelpful than any other aspect.
[17:59:07] <MattJ> and probably the one that has stpeter :)
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[17:59:40] <dwd> emcho, Emil Ivov - we get two of you?
[17:59:49] <emcho> and even that is not enough!
[17:59:50] <Kev> No less than we deserve.
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[18:00:28] <intosi> Look what you did...
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[18:01:18] <fippo> i know simon has some plans already which depend on a summit at fosdem
[18:01:33] *Emil Ivov has no clones anymore
[18:01:34] <fippo> but I sure wouldn't mind spending another two days in the mountains
[18:01:36] <Kev> BC or XMPP plans?
[18:01:42] <fippo> BC plans
[18:01:47] *stpeter rejoins and scrolls up
[18:03:24] <stpeter> anyway, let me see about my travel approvals, sorry to have cause a ruckus
[18:03:54] <fippo> stpeter: make sure you get the one for hawaii as well ;-)
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[18:04:01] <MattJ> :P
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[18:04:55] <fippo> bear/lance: have you guys heard anything about certain realtime events in europe next year?
[18:05:12] <Lance> nope
[18:05:49] <stpeter> heehee
[18:05:49] <stpeter> it's easy and cheap for me to arrange rooms at Cisco or IETF, not as easy or cheap elsewhere (e.g., random hotels in Portland)
[18:05:49] <stpeter> but I'm working on raising money, too
[18:06:31] <stpeter> after I reimburse myself for Portland expenses, we'll have only ~$5000 in the bank
[18:06:47] <stpeter> I'd like to have more of a cushion than that
[18:07:23] <dwd> We'll find some cash. Easier to find some cash if we've an event to get sponsorship for, too.
[18:07:53] <stpeter> an event or a program of some kind (see note about DNSSEC)
[18:13:28] <stpeter> bbiaf
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[18:20:34] <dwd> Speaking of video recordings, Emil Ivov - I really liked your video about the bridge. Do you think we could run a video interview of something to stick on the XSF site?
[18:20:49] <dwd> Or something. Not "of something".
[18:21:02] <dwd> I meant an interview, or presentation, or something with or by you.
[18:21:11] <Emil Ivov> dwd: would very much like that :)
[18:21:17] <fippo> '+1
[18:21:30] <Emil Ivov> dwd: (we are also thinking about doing recordings on the bridge! )
[18:21:31] <dwd> Emil Ivov, Maybe you could get fippo to actually speak this time.
[18:21:45] <fippo> dwd: we tried, but that caused technical problems
[18:21:47] <Emil Ivov> dwd: he actually seems quite talkative to me :)
[18:22:01] <fippo> he's telling me of COIN all the time!
[18:22:11] <dwd> fippo, Not Muji, then?
[18:22:15] <Emil Ivov> :)
[18:22:18] *dwd whistles innocently.
[18:22:22] <fippo> dwd: bad mistake!
[18:23:04] <dwd> Anyway, children time, but we should sort something out. EVen better if the bridge can do recordings - I was going to ask about that, too.
[18:23:19] <Emil Ivov> I am not sure what Muji is ... COIN is this thing that actually works ... you know ... just saying
[18:23:59] <Emil Ivov> dwd: yeah we are looking into it. we definitely want that! IGive us a month or so
[18:24:30] <Emil Ivov> dwd: will you be in Paris next week?
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[18:29:13] <ralphm> Regarding FOSDEM, they way it all started was that Edwin, Christ and I decided to request a booth at FOSDEM and represent the Jabber community. Without a summit and without a devroom. That went on for a few years until we decided to request a devroom. The summit came even later.
[18:31:29] <Emil Ivov> ralphm: don't you find that FOSDEM's changed a bit though?
[18:31:44] <ralphm> Sure it has.
[18:31:55] <ralphm> FOSDEM was tiny back then.
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[18:32:27] <ralphm> I must admit that if we don't get a booth and don't do a summit, I might consider not going.
[18:32:48] <Emil Ivov> in only that way? our first years were just incredibly exciting in terms of the dialogs and meetings we had
[18:33:13] <Emil Ivov> the last couple of years have been much more standard expo-ish
[18:33:29] <Emil Ivov> (I am mostly talking about the stand experience)
[18:34:03] <Emil Ivov> there's a lot less enthusiasm from potential contributors and many more people with "how are you going to amuse me today" attitude
[18:34:06] <ralphm> http://ralphm.net/blog/2004/02/09/jabber_fosdem
[18:34:08] <fippo> "held in some nondescript hotel ballroom, graying men shuffling around in ill fitting suits inside photo (19)little 10 x 10 booths with banners proclaiming some feat of magic" ? :-)
[18:35:14] <intosi> raphm: the year you didn't go, and let Christ and me solve it ;)
[18:35:14] <ralphm> Emil Ivov: I think this mostly a function of the size of FOSDEM.
[18:35:28] <ralphm> intosi: I remember. Damn thesis.
[18:36:16] <Emil Ivov> ralphm: yes there's that
[18:36:38] <Emil Ivov> ralphm: but this year: no XMPP dev room, no open communications dev room ...
[18:36:57] <MattJ> Maybe they were worried it would get too political? :)
[18:37:03] <ralphm> Emil Ivov: there is an IoT room
[18:37:13] <Emil Ivov> which isn't RTC though
[18:37:14] <MattJ> This being the year of years where open communications seem relevant
[18:37:26] <Emil Ivov> ok at least not human to human RTC
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[18:37:46] <ralphm> All joking aside, the reason we didn't get a room for either XMPP or RTC has nothing to do with the topics or the people involved.
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[18:38:23] <MattJ> ralphm, then?
[18:39:02] <ralphm> Every year, there are gazillion applications for devrooms, and the organisation basically has to pick and choose with the (pretty large) number of rooms they have available.
[18:39:16] <ralphm> This year, we lucked out. Yes, nothing else.
[18:39:21] <MattJ> Sure, but what criteria do they use if not topics?
[18:39:29] <ralphm> I know many people in the organisation and they love having us.
[18:39:29] <MattJ> So it's just luck, and they pick rooms from a hat?
[18:39:46] <ralphm> Because we run everything smoothly and clean up and are friendly and all that.
[18:40:31] <ralphm> Their ways of selecting devrooms is not actively made public nor does it need to be.
[18:41:29] <MattJ> No need to get defensive of them :)
[18:41:30] <ralphm> Remember this is an all-volunteer effort, and these guys are stretched unimaginably already. We should be grateful for all the years that we did have a room. Also note that we missed out once before, and we did fine.
[18:41:41] <ralphm> MattJ: I like to.
[18:41:53] <ralphm> MattJ: mostly because many people have the wrong idea about them
[18:41:54] <MattJ> I am grateful, and I haven't said one word of criticism of them, or their decision
[18:42:18] <ralphm> MattJ: I know that of you personally. I was speaking in general.
[18:42:22] <MattJ> But you seemed to imply knowledge of their selection process, which is why I asked
[18:42:51] <intosi> It might involve magic imps.
[18:42:55] <intosi> For all we know.
[18:42:55] <ralphm> I think they might regret not having any RTC this year.
[18:42:59] <MattJ> Because I do think the lack of an open communications track anywhere is a strange omission, regardless of who made or how they made that decision
[18:43:36] <MattJ> But it's their conference, and they certainly have the right to have whatever rooms they want :)
[18:44:22] <fippo> ralpm: certainly so after they see the video bridge in action (-:
[18:44:44] <fippo> would still be happy to show it in the lounge (if we have that)
[18:45:08] <ralphm> we'll no know in 10 days
[18:45:11] <MattJ> Let's have everyone attend FOSDEM remotely
[18:45:20] <ralphm> we'll know
[18:45:25] <ralphm> hah
[18:47:57] <fippo> we just ask someone to put up some screens
[18:48:39] <ralphm> fippo: where someone is 'us', I'm sure.
[18:54:32] <intosi> I don't doubt that, ralphm.
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[19:02:42] <Emil Ivov> ralphm: sorry ralph got distracted. I didn't mean to imply any wrongdoing on FOSDEM's behalf. They have the right to make whatever topic choices their organisational community wants. I am not disputing this. However we are tech enthusiasts and, as individuals, we also have the right to be disappointed that our favorite event doesn't feature the topics that we care about
[19:03:35] <Emil Ivov> and given how many of us here run on very constrainted budgets. it is perfectly legitimate that this could change our decisions to be there or not
[19:03:47] <Emil Ivov> *constrained (duh)
[19:07:11] <Emil Ivov> (despite the ranting we'd probably still truck most of the jitsi devs there if we get our stand/lounge again :) )
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