Tuesday, December 17, 2013
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[00:15:18] *bear just registered xmmp.org and pointed it's A record to xmpp.org
[00:15:34] <waqas> Thanks bear!
[00:16:26] <bear> not sure how to get hover to do the dns for web forwards, gladly will point it to our nameserver if that is easier
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[08:07:53] <ralphm> emcho: did you get a stand, too?
[08:20:33] <intosi> bear: I think we can work out the details for DNS. iteam is glad to support it.
[08:20:58] <bear> intosi - cool - just let me know what to put as nameservers then
[08:21:58] <bear> oh - probably same as xmpptest.com
[08:22:08] <bear> i'll change it to ns1.jabber.org now
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[08:25:14] <bear> ok, I made xmmp.org have the same nameserves as xmpptest.com
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[08:38:51] <intosi> I'll set something up for it.
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[08:46:57] <intosi> bear: DNS is set up.
[08:47:03] <intosi> -- Checking SOA records of slaves
...
xmmp.org: OK
[08:54:20] <intosi> Hmm, except that ns3 isn't syncing. I'll chat with Florian to fix that.
[08:54:34] <bear> cool
[08:54:35] <intosi> We had the same issue with xmpptest.com.
[08:54:53] <bear> cool - now xmmp.org should point to xmpp.org
[08:55:50] <intosi> It works for me.
[08:57:10] <intosi> Best thing: didn't even have to change the nginx config to make it happen.
[08:57:35] <bear> yea, gotta love a good nginx config
[08:57:56] <bear> good in this case being simple
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[09:00:06] <dwd> So, lots of good news yesterday, then.
[09:00:56] <dwd> Oh, hadn't noticed the xmmp.
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[09:03:11] <bear> yea, set that up and then read the news from ralph and saw that the forwarded email has XMMP in it :)
[09:03:45] <dwd> bear, If you're up, want to Bloggerize the stand?
[09:03:55] <bear> sure
[09:04:11] <bear> shall i also mention jingle ?
[09:04:18] <ralphm> Yeah, I shall have a word with Wynke on that :-D
[09:04:25] <dwd> bear, In what sense?
[09:04:32] <ralphm> I'd like to know if Jitsi got a stand too
[09:04:43] <ralphm> but emcho isn't responding
[09:04:45] <dwd> emcho, ICMP_ECHO_REQUEST
[09:05:16] <bear> oh, yea misread that - i'll do ours now and another later
[09:05:29] <dwd> Two posts is better than one.
[09:05:54] *ralphm summons emcho
[09:06:35] <intosi> raise Emcho()
[09:07:09] <bear> something along the lines of: The XSF is happy to annouce we will again be present at FOSDEM with the Realtime Lounge and a stand" ?
[09:07:26] <ralphm> 'and a stand'?
[09:07:39] <bear> yea, i ran out of words :/
[09:08:01] <ralphm> bear: some words: epic, must-see, awesome
[09:08:33] <intosi> Interactive, responsive design, standards-compliant?
[09:08:35] <ralphm> bear: unique, Jingle, IoT, demos
[09:08:45] <bear> http://www.piratepad.ca/p/VCq8kVvwUa
[09:08:54] <ralphm> bear: hah, no
[09:08:59] <bear> no?
[09:09:25] <ralphm> bear: you are drafting, we are giving you words you ran out of. Seems like a great deal.
[09:09:29] <bear> ah
[09:09:31] <bear> one sec
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[09:10:06] <Kev> Scalable. Secure. World-class. Cutting-Edge. Value-add. Blue-sky.
[09:10:13] <Kev> Am I doing this right?
[09:10:39] <ralphm> oh, oh, I know: synergy, solutions
[09:10:45] <ralphm> and WebRTC of course
[09:10:49] <intosi> Kev, ralphm: spot on!
[09:11:17] <dwd> If you're struggling, might I suggest we nudge Laura?
[09:11:18] <intosi> Toss in high grade encryption, too. It appears to be a popular topic.
[09:11:54] <ralphm> dwd: that's a great point
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[09:11:56] <Kev> Anonymous. Strong identity. Strong authentication. Dialback.
[09:12:18] <Kev> bear: Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to get all of these in :p
[09:12:19] <bear> oh, man - the voice of reason from dave
[09:12:37] <bear> hell no, i'm punting as we have a real wordsmith now ;)
[09:12:51] <ralphm> bear: but yeah, drop the 'stand' part
[09:12:56] <ralphm> the lounge is the thing
[09:13:00] *bear writes a members announcement
[09:13:10] <bear> err thingy
[09:13:12] <bear> yea, that
[09:13:14] <ralphm> we do have tables, of course
[09:13:37] <ralphm> but stands are what the other guys do. We're way past that :_D
[09:13:44] <bear> :)
[09:15:49] <intosi> We did stands 10 years ago, we moved on.
[09:16:21] <dwd> Stands are so three years ago.
[09:17:07] <bear> ok, request for help sent
[09:17:08] <intosi> Still miss our flag. Waves fist at unnamed German guy who kept it.
[09:17:26] <dwd> Flag?
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[09:17:44] <fippo> intosi: ulrich?
[09:17:45] <intosi> The table cloth we used
[09:17:52] <intosi> fippo: yeah, him :)
[09:18:49] <intosi> http://photo.ik.nu/v/fosdem/fosdem_2004/jabber3.jpg.html
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[09:19:23] <ralphm> I can always order a flag, but as I remember, the space we will be in, is not very helpful in hanging things on walls. But I suppose a table cloth could be done, still.
[09:19:53] <fippo> ah, i remember making plan for stealing that flag :-)
[09:20:46] <dwd> How about this for the basis of a second t-shirt: http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?client=ubuntu-browser&biw=1200&bih=1509&tbm=isch&tbnid=QO6_PBV7zTImmM:&imgrefurl=http://fortmissoulamuseum.org/WWII/detail.php?id=449&docid=IX1zJvAWtJMX3M&imgurl=http://www.fortmissoulamuseum.org/WWII/images/posters/1986.004.439.jpg&w=800&h=1120&ei=lBawUuXyGsOThQeWwYDABg&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:63,s:0,i:278&iact=rc&page=2&tbnh=192&tbnw=137&start=49&ndsp=58&tx=67&ty=81
[09:20:46] <intosi> http://photo.ik.nu/v/fosdem/fosdem_2004/jabber1.jpg.html
[09:20:51] <intosi> Look at the size of that monitor...
[09:22:01] <bear> I have one of those in the basement
[09:22:24] <bear> ugh, I really should send it to a recycle center
[09:22:29] <ralphm> I am looking at the site I ordered the flag from last time.
[09:22:30] <intosi> This one was mine, I gave it away together with the SGI that used to be attached to it.
[09:23:22] <ralphm> They also do custom fatboys
[09:24:22] <Zash> That sounds like the bomb
[09:24:35] <intosi> That's very loungy.
[09:25:14] <bear> that sounds like a great sponsor thingy
[09:25:28] *bear should really go to bed now
[09:25:44] <bear> my word selection is regressing
[09:26:55] <ralphm> How many colors?
[09:27:14] <dwd> Depends what's on it. What's the cost?
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[09:28:55] <ralphm> (the Jabber logo has 2, the XMPP logo has 5 (+ shades), Real Time logo has 2. Add 1 for text)
[09:29:29] <ralphm> dwd: I don't know, that's why I need to know the number of colors. They don't list prices on the site)
[09:29:48] <Kev> I think we should probably just give up on 'Jabber' at this point :/
[09:30:15] <ralphm> Kev: it shows you were not present at the summit
[09:30:30] <Kev> You think being at the summit would persuade me that we shouldn't?
[09:30:58] <ralphm> Well, at the very least there was no consensus against reusing Jabber
[09:31:00] <Kev> The trademark's now owned by a company using it to refer to a competing system. I don't see how it's good to keep using it.
[09:31:37] <ralphm> I don't see how that matters in practice.
[09:31:49] <Kev> "Buyer" confusion.
[09:32:19] <ralphm> The Jabber name is still widely regarded to refer to what we do, and they only ones that are going to be confused are the Cisco Marketing people
[09:32:31] <Kev> I don't think that's true.
[09:32:41] <dwd> Actually the buyer confusion is very much on our side. End users particularly are still very much using the Jabber term for XMPP based IM solutions.
[09:32:41] <ralphm> who will ask legal and then find out that we can do what we want with the trademark
[09:33:11] <Kev> XMPP (the protocol, not the name) actually has a reasonable amount of penetration, and if we say "You should call it Jabber", the people who want it say "Buy us a Jabber system please", and the purchasers then buy "Cisco Jabber", this is not a good thing for us.
[09:33:28] <Kev> ralphm: It's not a question of being able to do what we want with it, it's whether using it is helpful.
[09:33:44] <dwd> Kev, XMPP has penetration in terms of technologists and developers.
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[09:33:55] <Kev> dwd: Yes. So the end users say "Get us a Jabber system", and procurement buy a Cisco Jabber system.
[09:33:56] <dwd> Kev, Jabber has penetration as a consumer-grade network.
[09:34:13] <fippo> and jabber has penetration in terms of CIOs
[09:36:36] <fippo> bear: I think it would help to mention IOT in the announcement as well
[09:36:58] <bear> fippo - post that as a reply so i remember - i'm going to go find my bed and crawl into it
[09:37:01] *bear waves
[09:37:06] <Kev> bear: GN.
[09:37:18] <intosi> nn
[09:42:23] <emcho> heya
[09:42:56] <ralphm> emcho: hey
[09:43:07] <ralphm> emcho: did you guys get a stand at FOSDEM as well?
[09:43:13] <emcho> yes got it
[09:43:19] <emcho> and a lightning talk as well
[09:43:26] <ralphm> awesome
[09:43:27] <emcho> two tables
[09:43:28] <intosi> emcho: good news!
[09:43:32] <emcho> right!
[09:43:43] <emcho> seems like we'll be able to rebuild last year's RTL
[09:44:05] <intosi> If we include the right bytes, it will be LTR
[09:44:05] <emcho> or change it of course
[09:47:37] <emcho> maybe this year we could do it a bit differently actually
[09:47:54] <emcho> last year the loungy area was kind of barred by the tables
[09:48:02] <emcho> so it wasn't evident that it was free access
[09:48:13] <emcho> (or maybe that was the intention?)
[09:48:38] <emcho> so maybe this year we could have the tables at one side and the loungy area at the other
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[09:59:22] <ralphm> emcho: well, one of the problems is that the area is also a passthrough for people that need to use the elevator
[09:59:32] <ralphm> (like weelchairs)
[09:59:35] <ralphm> wheel
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[10:11:35] <emcho> yeah sure, but we wouldn't block it. laste year had this:
[wall][--emptyspace--][tables][lounge]
what we could try is this:
[wall][tables][--emptyspace--][lounge]
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[10:19:49] <intosi> There's not a lot of wall usable for that. There's the exit of the lecture hall as well.
[10:29:27] <emcho> well we could experiment. we are certainly OK with last year's arrangement
[10:30:12] <emcho> we could also reverse the tables so that the XSF is seen before jitsi this time
[10:33:07] <fippo> we can also stream the xsf table to the jitsi table ,-)
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[10:37:01] <dwd> Don't cross the streams.
[10:37:07] <dwd> Or was that something else?
[10:37:16] <intosi> dwd: no, that's for this.
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[10:47:32] <ralphm> intosi: as far as I remember, that exit should not be used during FOSDEM and we might put a sign to that effect on the inside
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[11:20:41] <dwd> Rough design of my "Enemy Listening" concept to the list.
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[12:13:48] <dwd> Nobody has any comments on t-shirt designs? That's got to be a first.
[12:14:14] <Zash> Lunch coma
[12:16:33] <dwd> The one I'm parodying is here: http://www.fortmissoulamuseum.org/WWII/images/posters/1986.004.439.jpg
[12:17:00] <dwd> Ooooh. That thumbnails with Gajim and the right plugins. Purr-tee!
[12:18:55] <Zash> http://pics.zash.se/531867ea.jpeg
[12:19:10] <Zash> Nice, IP address leakage
[12:19:37] <Zash> Mr Dave Cridland
[12:20:24] <dwd> Well, yes.
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[12:59:32] <dwd> So, can't decide between "Encrypt you talk" and "Encrypt your speech". Maybe even "Encrypt for Freedom". Also, I don't like "Don't use silos", I think it's dull.
[12:59:47] <dwd> "Secure your server", maybe?
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[13:20:11] <intosi> Secure your server would be better.
[13:20:20] <intosi> Or Encrypt your s2s
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[13:21:14] <intosi> or comms instead of s2s
[13:23:26] <Zash> Secure Your Server sounds pretty good
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[13:33:18] <dwd> How about that, then?
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[15:45:26] <MattJ> "I have seen the enemy, and he is us. Secure your server!"
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[15:48:04] <emcho> "Winter is coming!"
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[16:01:02] <ralphm> "Encrypt your jabber" would bring out the original meaning of the word :-D
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[16:48:40] <dwd> Usually, any t-shirt discussions spawn an endless and depressing bikeshed discussion. This year, everyone seems scarily quiet.
[16:49:04] <Zash> The calm before the storm?
[16:49:14] <ralphm> I blame it on the US being asleep still
[16:49:36] <dwd> Ah, they may all be in the STOX interim, I suppose.
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[16:51:27] <dwd> I want a better word than "encrypt". I'm tempted to use "Encipher", just for the period.
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[16:52:12] <dwd> What about "Keep that Jabber secret"?
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[17:01:58] *stpeter is indeed in the STOX interim conference call
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[17:03:34] <fippo> stpeter: you're in a loop ;-)
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[17:12:13] <dwd> What sort of numbers of t-shirts do we want this year, BTW?
[17:12:28] <Zash> Integer numbers.
[17:12:36] <dwd> Sounds rational.
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[17:15:19] <Zash> Naturally
[17:16:04] <ralphm> Get real!
[17:16:35] <MattJ> Considering we don't have any actual number to discuss yet, doesn't that make it imaginary?
[17:16:54] <dwd> I can't remember how many we got last time I rodered them, which doesn't help.
[17:16:55] <MattJ> This is the most productive room I'm in
[17:20:59] <ralphm> dwd: that's making things complex
[17:21:03] <fippo> stpeter: foundation bug is already noted in http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/User:Fippo#XEP_0176
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[17:23:47] <ralphm> dwd: what about "Jabber in code"?
[17:25:18] <fippo> quick poll: you're allowed to send an <iq/> to a bare jid (even a jingle session-initiate), right?
[17:25:24] <ralphm> yes
[17:25:34] <MattJ> Sure
[17:25:36] <ralphm> but a server must reply on the account's behalf
[17:25:40] <MattJ> Right
[17:25:45] <Lance> it probably won't do what you want, but you can
[17:25:51] <fippo> right. or a stox pstn gateway
[17:25:55] <Kev> But if you want servers to handle jingle for you, it's fine.
[17:26:32] <fippo> ah, we'll have to discuss that on the stox list
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[17:27:23] <stpeter> fippo: thanks -- it would indeed be good to fix the bugs in those specs
[17:29:13] <fippo> stpeter: yeah... if I only had more time :-/
[17:29:46] <stpeter> fippo: yeah, I hear you!
[17:30:27] <Kev> Agendawriting time for Council - fippo, are your updated specs ready to go in the inbox?
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[17:30:45] <stpeter> Kev: I received your email, will reply shortly
[17:30:57] <Kev> stpeter: No rush.
[17:31:58] <fippo> kev: yeah, i think it's just the html in the inbox that needs to be updated
[17:32:20] <fippo> stpeter: heh, I managed to do a thourough review of stox-media in the last 90 minutes at least :-)
[17:32:38] <stpeter> :P
[17:32:39] <stpeter> brb
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[17:35:11] <Kev> fippo: Do you have home-rendered versions anywhere?
[17:35:32] <Kev> If it's already checked into Git. Saves Peter publishing again.
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[17:37:51] <fippo> kev: inbox doesn't seem to contain any .html -- https://github.com/fippo/customxeps/tree/gh-pages/extensions has html, too
[17:38:20] <Kev> https://github.com/fippo/customxeps/blob/gh-pages/extensions/jingle-sources.html and https://github.com/fippo/customxeps/blob/gh-pages/extensions/jingle-grouping.html ?
[17:38:33] <fippo> yes
[17:38:38] <Kev> Urgh.
[17:38:40] <Lance> http://fippo.github.io/customxeps/extensions/jingle-sources.html
[17:38:45] <Kev> https://raw.github.com/fippo/customxeps/gh-pages/extensions/jingle-sources.html doesn't work :(
[17:38:45] <Lance> http://fippo.github.io/customxeps/extensions/jingle-grouping.html
[17:38:51] <Kev> Ah, ta.
[17:39:33] <Kev> Lance: Nothing to do with peptzo, right?
[17:40:01] <Lance> No, I haven't had time to write a XEP-80 update proposal
[17:40:15] <Lance> still not sure which approach is better
[17:41:04] <Zash> Lance: Update with what?
[17:41:15] <Lance> Adding current time zone offset
[17:41:18] <Zash> Ah
[17:41:38] <Lance> I had a proposal to just add that in PEP, but there were comments that it would fit better in GeoLoc
[17:44:27] <dwd> I think it does fit there, but logistically it might be easier to split it off.
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[19:12:55] <fippo> bear: can you bring the sign from http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyet-photos/10370068076/ along, too? :-)
[19:16:10] <fippo> http://www.ucstrategies.com/unified-communications-expert-views/business-to-business-uc-collaboration.aspx -- *sigh*
[19:16:24] <fippo> "For example, company A, which requires XMPP over TLS connection, can still connect to company B which uses XMPP over TCP with dial-back."
[19:16:49] <fippo> that annoys me enough to register even
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[20:01:54] <bear> do we have numbers and cost info from the last tshirt purchase? I'm asking if &yet can help with some of this and they will need a ballpark figure
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[20:21:51] <stpeter> bear: I have that information, but it's at the Cisco office and I'm working at home today
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[20:25:10] <bear> no worries - i'm just gathering data
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[20:48:03] <stpeter> hmm
[20:49:26] <stpeter> reading http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-bylaws/ Section 8.3 (on "Work Teams"), I conclude that we need to actually establish the UPnP Forum liaison team, with a charter and all, so we might be putting the cart before the horse to ask for volunteers at this time
[20:49:31] <stpeter> I'll post to the members@ list about it
[20:50:48] <fippo> stpeter: did we do that for the jingle work team?
[20:50:58] <fippo> (even though that ended up in a different way :-)
[20:51:05] <stpeter> not really, so that team is null and void! ;-)
[20:51:38] <fippo> poor dwd
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[21:23:55] <stpeter> message sent to the list
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[21:39:13] <fippo> the upnp guys are in portland?
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[21:40:05] <fippo> (well, depending on the definition of "guys" obviously)
[21:41:14] <MattJ> Was UPnP invented in the 90s by any chance?
[21:42:36] <Zash> The one that's based on SOAP over HTTP over UDP?
[21:43:44] <MattJ> Yes
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[22:11:59] <stpeter> well, they are all over the world -- I don't think they are "in" any specific place
[22:12:37] <ralphm> not just the world, universal!
[22:12:49] <stpeter> heehee
[22:12:55] <ralphm> but yeah, a consortium
[22:13:09] <ralphm> I know people from Philips working on it, while I was there in 2003
[22:13:55] <stpeter> maybe the XSF could be located at the geographic center of all its members -- probably somewhere over the Atlantic Ocean :-)
[22:14:01] <MattJ> :)
[22:14:26] <Zash> Or under
[22:14:37] <stpeter> some would say we're all wet, so sure
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[22:15:28] <ralphm> good old, design by committee, everyone getting their exceptions and/or IP in
[22:18:24] <stpeter> yep, most SDOs are like that, it seems
[22:21:42] <stpeter> yay, got down below 9000 messages in my inbox ;-)
[22:22:00] <stpeter> something to do over the holidays...
[22:22:09] <waqas> stpeter: Weren't you at inbox zero at some point?
[22:22:15] <stpeter> at some point
[22:22:21] <stpeter> it happens once in a while
[22:22:25] <stpeter> and then it explodes
[22:22:25] <ralphm> do mailinglist posts count?
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[22:22:37] <stpeter> ralphm: I don't differentiate
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[22:23:18] <ralphm> stpeter: oh
[22:23:24] <waqas> Mailing list posts are auto-labelled and don't go in my inbox. I have most emails auto-labelled.
[22:23:25] <stpeter> BTW it seems that Joe Hildebrand might be at FOSDEM for sure, so we could still hold meetings at the Cisco offices even if I'm not able to travel
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[22:23:33] <ralphm> woot
[22:23:35] <ralphm> go hildjj
[22:23:47] <Zash> aha
[22:23:54] <stpeter> should know soon if that will pan out
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[22:24:27] <Zash> "might .. for sure" :D
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[22:24:43] <stpeter> he said so yesterday, but I want to verify
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[22:24:51] <Zash> "60% of the time, it works every time"
[22:24:55] <stpeter> but yes, a poorly constructed sentence, that was
[22:25:47] <ralphm> I have 971 unread messages on standards@
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[22:25:55] <ralphm> maybe I should give up on those
[22:26:07] <ralphm> some go back to 2010 :-D
[22:26:13] <stpeter> :/
[22:26:42] <Zash> "Mark as read" is your friend
[22:28:16] <bear> getting info on fosdem is great news - i've been trying to keep the two events raised at work so they know what is coming
[22:30:26] <ralphm> I'd love to see a bunch of &yetis
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[22:41:02] <bear> with two events it would be tough to have a large showing, but each event has it's own sales/tech reasons - i'm gathering data for both to make the pitch
[22:44:50] *stpeter nods
[22:44:53] <stpeter> thanks, bear!
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[22:57:02] <stpeter> bbiaw
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[23:51:00] *** SouL shows as "online"
[23:54:36] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:54:36] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:54:37] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:55:29] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:56:05] *** SouL shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:59:01] *** Simon has left the room