XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2013-12-18


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  63. bear pushes publish on the FOSDEM post
  64. jabberjocke has left
  65. intosi yay
  66. intosi "and we will showcasing the latest developments"
  67. intosi Shouldn't that either "be showcasing" or "showcase"?
  68. intosi The rest is in simple future, so I'd say you meant will showcase.
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  88. dwd intosi, I didn't know Will was even coming.
  89. ralphm Beanbag, fullcolor, 180x140: €170,83 (ex VAT), 140x140: €136 (ex VAT).
  90. ralphm (2 sided print)
  91. dwd ralphm, What's the VAT rate? We can't claim that back unless we form an EU subsidiary.
  92. ralphm 21% for this, I think
  93. dwd ralphm, At least, not in any way I understand.
  94. ralphm dwd: good question, if it is ordered and paid for from outside of the EU, you might have tax excemptions.
  95. ralphm or maybe that's only for people
  96. dwd If it's bought for export, then yes.
  97. dwd At least, I think that's how it worked.
  98. ralphm Right.
  99. dwd I could ask Arcode's accountant, mind - he might have looked into this. But I think it'd involve the XSF being VAT registered somewhere, which means we'd have VAT returns to do quarterly, as well. All seems remarkably painful for the amount we'd recover.
  100. ralphm indeed
  101. ralphm what do you think about sizes?
  102. dwd Oh, and we need somewhere to ship these, too.
  103. ralphm (the prices look good to me)
  104. ralphm well, they can be shipped my way
  105. dwd I'd get the bigger one on principle, really.
  106. ralphm I assume I can bring three of them in my car
  107. dwd ralphm, Yeah, but there's t-shirts and stuff as well. I think we should get less than last time I did this, but still.
  108. dwd ralphm, Wait, you think you can get three 180x140 beanbags in your car?
  109. ralphm am I optimistic?
  110. dwd I might be able to in our estate, if I have all the back seats down.
  111. ralphm intosi: what do you think?
  112. ralphm dwd: also, we could consider renting a cargo van, as we need to move the other stuff around
  113. dwd How many t-shirts (total), and do we want something like zippy hoodies? Last time we got 200 t-shirts, and 100 hoodies. I suspect we should go for fewer.
  114. dwd ralphm, Yes, probably renting a van would be sensible.
  115. dwd ralphm, As long as Florian does not drive it under any circumstances.
  116. ralphm I would rent and drive it
  117. ralphm as, you know, things would likely be shipped my way
  118. dwd Can we get intosi signed up as a second driver on it easily?
  119. ralphm yes
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  123. dwd Right, I'm going to ask Hoodyworld for vague pricing based on 100 fairly assorted t-shirts and 50 zip hoodies "or something else".
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  126. ralphm I don't mind them being "exclusive".
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  129. intosi ralphm: if we take my car, I'm sure we can fit one more in ;)
  130. intosi Three is about the max, I think.
  131. intosi And driving a van: no problem.
  132. ralphm I just think it would be smart for various reasons
  133. ralphm goes for tea
  134. intosi Enjoy
  135. bear asZX@#XC@@@@@@@@@@@@@xd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111v`5444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444 `1 ,
  136. dwd Cat's on the prowl again.
  137. Kev Hello bearcat.
  138. ralphm dear cat of bear
  139. ralphm please get off the keyboard
  140. intosi A colleague once created a CatLock hack on his workstation.
  141. bear has left
  142. ralphm I hope bear's machine is still ok :-D
  143. dwd Ouch, hoodyworld's more expensive. £15 quid each for a zipped hoody, that's around €18.
  144. dwd And t-shirts (50) at £6 each (so €7.15 or so)
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  146. intosi ralphm: it's now even more awesome, because it can haz catz!
  147. dwd I've heard cats loll about a lot.
  148. intosi I bet there are even pictures proving it.
  149. dwd I can get us embroidered fleecy blankets for €18 a peice as well.
  150. ralphm intosi: I mean bear getting disconnected
  151. ralphm dwd: I like embroidered, blankets not so much. I still have a fleece blanket with sleeves here
  152. ralphm unused
  153. ralphm https://plus.google.com/photos/117377434815709898403/albums/5579746112042641729/5579746205077927666?pid=5579746205077927666&oid=117377434815709898403
  154. dwd Darth Iknu.
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  156. intosi dwd: indeed
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  188. bear hmm, seems I did not create any agenda for today
  189. bear I imagine it will be a two topic meeting - fosdem update, liason update
  190. dwd Ah, gosh. It's that time already.
  191. bear I was waiting for the chatter to calm down over in Council
  192. ralphm bear: that can take hours
  193. stpeter bear: oh those people will chatter on indefinitely :-)
  194. ralphm go
  195. bear ok, let's start the holiday edition of XSF
  196. ralphm Jingle all the way!
  197. dwd ralphm, Very good.
  198. bear I know of only two items for the agenda: Liason update and FOSDEM update
  199. bear any other additions to the agenda?
  200. stpeter cites http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0169.html
  201. Kev bear: Meeting's over for Council.
  202. Kev Just discussing stuff.
  203. bear bangs the gavel
  204. bear Dave, Ralph and myself present
  205. ralphm Wooooh!
  206. bear agenda: 1) FOSDEM update and 2) Liason update
  207. bear any additions?
  208. ralphm LGTM
  209. stpeter we might have more money on the way ;-)
  210. bear ok, FOSDEM - Ralph?
  211. ralphm Yes
  212. dwd stpeter, Even more?
  213. stpeter dwd: AOB
  214. ralphm So, we can do another lounge
  215. bear adds money to the agenda
  216. ralphm Together with the Jitsi people.
  217. bear FOSDEM?
  218. ralphm cheers
  219. intosi It's a big conference in Belgium.
  220. stpeter heh
  221. ralphm wacks intosi
  222. bear reaches for the club
  223. intosi ;)
  224. ralphm There are some lightning talks and talks in other devrooms to go with out Lounge effort.
  225. bear so, we have a stand - do we know what we need to start planning to populate the stand?
  226. ralphm bear: yesterday
  227. ralphm We need a) people
  228. stpeter Joe Hildebrand told me that he will *probably* be at FOSDEM and thus he could be the in-person host at the Cisco office in Diegem, in case I can't do so -- he will let me know by the end of this week
  229. dwd One thing I'm not totally clear on is how we extract the Stuff™ from Cisco Diegem's storage, where I assume it's lurking.
  230. ralphm b) demos
  231. dwd stpeter, Oh, that'd solve everything.
  232. stpeter dwd: I will ping Jerome about that right now
  233. ralphm stpeter: let's discuss summit right after fosdem?
  234. fippo mh. unfortunately the jitsi people (emil + yana) aren't available right now. I think they have (a)
  235. ralphm c) I think it would be good to have some screens and/or projectors for showing stuff
  236. bear if we have a Cisco presence I don't see why we don't have summit at FOSDEM to continue the pattern
  237. stpeter ralphm: yes
  238. ralphm fippo: I trust Jitsi with their demos, I'll coordinate that with them, too.
  239. ralphm It is just that we have 4 tables and a bigger area
  240. bear i'm pushing for a big &yet presence at FOSDEM so we will have demos also
  241. fippo ralphm: the demo is going to be jitsi + bridge + webrtc obviously (-:
  242. stpeter last year we had XSF, Jitsi, and BuddyCloud folks all mingled together
  243. ralphm indeed
  244. stpeter which worked fine, I thought
  245. ralphm So, I want to gather demos on the wiki. We may want to make a planning for it, too.
  246. bear nods
  247. stpeter good plan!
  248. ralphm If that's still a topic, I definitely think that having a Summit will also help for a), by the way, so more on that later.
  249. bear let me know when the wiki page is up - I will start a weekly "drumbeat" of posts and talk to get people to know about it
  250. ralphm skipping c), Dave has brought up suggestions for posters, shirts and hoodies
  251. Kev I do think there is some merit in trying to arrange a summit Peter can attend, FWIW.
  252. ralphm for d) swag and other gear
  253. ralphm Kev: agreed
  254. ralphm for d) I think we need to determine our focus/branding
  255. dwd I'm investigating pricing currently. The previous supplier I used appears to have close to doubled prices.
  256. stpeter ralphm, I'm going to cc you on my message to Jerome
  257. Kev I accept there's a trade-off between Peter and Brussels, but the benefit of actually having Peter there is significant, and it'd be good to consider if Brussels or Peter gets us more here (I do have an opinion, of course).
  258. bear i'm working on getting us to help with poster/tshirt with the topic that Dave suggested
  259. ralphm angles are 1.) XMPP, 2.) Jabber, 3.) Realtime
  260. bear 4) security
  261. dwd bear, Right.
  262. stpeter right, privacy and security is fun
  263. ralphm I think 4 is orthogonal
  264. ralphm surely a good topic
  265. bear 4 is what will attract eyeballs IMO
  266. ralphm bear: I am talking about things like logos and things
  267. Kev FWIW, I think the 'two sets of branding' thing is appropriate.
  268. ralphm and shirts
  269. Kev (I'm likely to want T-Shirts with XMPP or Jingle or whatever on, but not "Down with the NSA" type stuff)
  270. Kev (But I can see that's going to draw interest and generate noise)
  271. stpeter Kev: :-)
  272. ralphm in this very room, I suggested we acquire branded beanbags
  273. bear depending on the cost of a tshirt run w/poster - I am pushing for that cost to be covered by us
  274. ralphm I have gotten an offer for 180x140 or 140x140cm ones
  275. Kev I'm almost tempted to get an XMPP-branded beanbag for myself (almost) ;)
  276. dwd bear, In return for what, though?
  277. ralphm (rambling on)
  278. ralphm this brings the issue of shipping\
  279. ralphm e)
  280. bear dwd - the use of the image in our own tshirt/poster run or a small ^lift appearance
  281. bear small being the text "^lift" someplace visible
  282. ralphm we could consider renting a cargo van, and I'd offer shipping bean bags and shirts my way
  283. ralphm and then driving them into and around Brussles
  284. dwd bear, I'm not immediately averse to sponsored swag - that is, a t-shirt that has an &Yet/^Lift logo as well as (one of) ours, but I'd think this would need a bit more discussion.
  285. bear understood
  286. dwd bear, Aside from anything else, if we can turn that into a cash-positive sponsorship deal and then give away the shirts, I'd be happier.
  287. bear covering the cost of the xsf gear is a given - the rest is gravy/extra
  288. ralphm Right, I just wanted to get all the things out here, to be discussed further this week
  289. dwd bear, Also, there's other folk who might want to be in on the sponsored-swag concept.
  290. bear k, then we can defer that mini-discussion to later after details are known
  291. dwd ralphm, I'm fully in favour of a van rental, as long as we have a second driver available.
  292. ralphm e.g. the Realtime shirts have &yet on the back/top. That's good.
  293. intosi I'm available as second driver
  294. Kev I wear my XMPP-flavour swag when I'm about the place with customers; I'd be unlikely to do that with &yet-flavoured swag, I think.
  295. Kev I don't know how many other people have similar circumstances (probably not many).
  296. bear then we will endevour to enable both
  297. ralphm Kev: even if mentioned in small on the back?
  298. dwd Kev, But maybe Isode co-branded swag?
  299. Kev Conceivably.
  300. stpeter I wonder if we want to co-brand all swag with sponsor names... (or not...)
  301. dwd ralphm, In Kev's situation, I wouldn't.
  302. ralphm dwd: fair enough, just wondering
  303. bear yea, even I think that co-branding is an additional item, don't co-brand at start and see how much co-branding attracts
  304. Kev I don't have a problem with paying for XMPP swag, though.
  305. ralphm I don't see this problem with the bean bags, by the way
  306. dwd stpeter, Well, if it gets us co-branded swag we can give away, I'm fine with that. If we have "official" ware that has a price tag, that's also good.
  307. Kev If the proposal is to have &yet sponsor some to give away, I wonder how hard it would be to just run off some for purchase without the sponsor logo.
  308. Kev Or if I'm an insignificant minority, for me to not have swag this year :)
  309. Kev (Assuming I'm going, which is largely predicated on what happens with the summit anyway)
  310. bear Let's go with non-branded swag and then see how many other companies may want to sponsor a post or a bean bag or something
  311. bear s/post/poster/
  312. dwd ralphm, You're assuming Kev doesn't want to wear a beanbag to a customer site.
  313. ralphm dwd: how insensitive of me. I'm sorry.
  314. Kev A not unreasonable assumption.
  315. bear :)
  316. bear puts on his meeting running hat
  317. bear anything else with fosdem ralph?
  318. ralphm well, the summit
  319. ralphm Let's have it
  320. ralphm If Diegem will be problem, we need to search for another venue.
  321. bear I think with fosdem presence now known, the summit would be best held at fosdem for the basic reason that more people will be going to it than to London for IETF
  322. dwd I've started poking Florian about local venues, hotels, meal.
  323. stpeter ralphm: we will know tomorrow or Friday about whether Joe will be there
  324. ralphm In any case, we will need to pick our stuff at the Cisco offices, and we may need to think about where to leave it afterwards again.
  325. ralphm stpeter: covering all bases
  326. Kev bear: Is it about numbers, or about which people are there?
  327. stpeter I still don't know if I'll be there, but I should know in the next week or two
  328. stpeter I think we should hold the summit in Brussels, the more I think about it
  329. dwd stpeter, We can Jingle you in, anyway.
  330. stpeter we can always find someone to be a host at the Cisco office, like Paolo or Jerome
  331. bear kev, the summit is a community event, so IMO it should always be about the numbers
  332. ralphm stpeter: do you think that also goes for continued storage?
  333. Kev bear: I disagree quite significantly :)
  334. bear and also that I am not adverse to finding a way to get Peter to the event by either reimbursing him from funds or finding a sponsor
  335. stpeter ralphm: yes, that should probably be fine
  336. ralphm As for the summit itself, having the summit and FOSDEM co-located will increase engagement in both efforts, I believe.
  337. ralphm Having many people around the Lounge is important.
  338. stpeter ralphm: yes
  339. fippo stpeter: we can call the ietf thing a hackfest again then. or just attend a meeting of the xmppuk group
  340. Kev ralphm: I believe it'll increase engagement with FOSDEM by people attending the summit. I don't know if the reverse is true, but it seems believable.
  341. ralphm fippo: sure, please also have that
  342. stpeter fippo: sure, like we did in Berlin
  343. bear yes, having two events is a good thing
  344. stpeter although I'd prefer more hacking / testing than talking, but I always say that and never end up making it happen :(
  345. dwd For the IETF thing, I'd think the goal would be to pull in IETFers. For this thing, it might be "to get something useful done".
  346. ralphm stpeter: let's make a call for proposals, and have someone suggest hacking sessions :-D
  347. ralphm I think it makes sense to make a proper planning for this summit anyway
  348. ralphm (instead of winging it like usual)
  349. dwd FWIW, I would *really* like to address XMPP native remote participation tools at this summit.
  350. ralphm dwd: agreed
  351. bear remote access sounds like a great chance for interop hacking at the fosdem event
  352. ralphm So, concluding.
  353. dwd And if that's done in terms of developers sitting down and building stuff, all the better.
  354. stpeter dwd: interesting -- maybe we can convince some of the meetecho folks to show up, too?
  355. dwd stpeter, Yes, thanks - I keep thinking that and then forgetting it.
  356. ralphm Let dwd, bear and I work this out further over the course of this week.
  357. ralphm (with others)
  358. ralphm the venue of discussions will be this room
  359. bear and recorded on the wiki
  360. stpeter dwd: I'm happy to reach out to those guys
  361. bear I would love to have the meetecho folks present - they have a lot of practical experiance
  362. stpeter given the tools we have these days, we should be able to make remote participation into an actually pleasant experience
  363. ralphm looks at the clock
  364. bear next agenda item?
  365. stpeter although we need to get organized w.r.t. to hardware and such
  366. stpeter sure
  367. dwd stpeter, Right, and it'd be great to give the IETF tools like that as well.
  368. stpeter so, liaisons
  369. bear hardware is part of what meetecho can provide IMO
  370. stpeter I sent a message to the members@ list about the UPnP Forum liaison relationship
  371. stpeter I looked at the bylaws and we need to have a charter for a Work Team
  372. stpeter thus the proposed charter
  373. stpeter feedback would be welcome about whether that makes sense
  374. stpeter I need to review the proposed agreement in more detail, too
  375. stpeter it has legalese about IPR and such...
  376. stpeter so I think we can't really make a decision about that in this meeting
  377. bear what do you need us (the board) to do now?
  378. stpeter if this approach works, I'll use it as a template for work teams for ISO TC 122 and IEC TC 57
  379. stpeter bear: review the charter proposal and the draft agreement, then comment on the members@ list
  380. bear k
  381. stpeter so that's really it for liaison stuff right now
  382. bear thanks!
  383. bear anyone have anything to add about Liason work?
  384. stpeter BTW, I also am thinking about ways to turn the XEP Editor role into a Work Team, too, but I'll noodle on that a bit more and post about it to the members@ list if I think it makes some sense
  385. bear oh +1 to spreading the love for that task
  386. stpeter as to money....
  387. stpeter I will provide a bit of a report about that to the membership at the end of the year or soon thereafter
  388. ralphm stpeter: congrats on what's been done so far
  389. stpeter we are on course to receive $10,000 from the Internet Society for support of our efforts at hardening the XMPP network
  390. bear \o/
  391. stpeter I might also put together a proposal for a more focused grant about DNSSEC and related topics
  392. stpeter but I will post about that to the members@ list, too
  393. bear that sounds like a great idea
  394. stpeter given these liaison relationships popping up, we might have more potential sponsors to talk with
  395. stpeter e.g., companies working in ISO and IEC and such
  396. ralphm right, pretty cool
  397. stpeter so I think that 2014 could be a good year :-)
  398. stpeter but IMHO every year that we all get to work together is a good year :-)
  399. bear agree!
  400. bear do we have anything else to add for this topic?
  401. stpeter I think not
  402. bear any AOB ?
  403. Kev I have a little one.
  404. bear ok, go
  405. Kev Which is just that it'd be nice for Board to review contributions at some point, and how we do them.
  406. Kev If only to say "Yes, we're comfortable with how we handle IP, everything is fine".
  407. dwd Contributions as in IPR for XEPs?
  408. Kev dwd: Idd.
  409. Kev It came up recently a couple of times about XEPs being submitted with IPR in them that wasn't the authors
  410. bear oh, maybe have a more formal statement about IPR for people working on XEPs and the like?
  411. dwd It might be as well to more or less invoke BCP 79.
  412. Kev So it's not clear to me that authors always understand that they must own the IP they're contributing, and that they're assigning it.
  413. Kev dwd: Very possibly. It just seems like Board should discuss this.
  414. stpeter Kev: I agree that it would be good to gain clarity on this topic
  415. bear yes, we can use the excellent work that the IETF has done here - ok, let's add that to the meeting for the first new year board meeting
  416. dwd The copyright situation is pretty simple, albeit not very well advertised.
  417. stpeter dwd: right
  418. dwd The patent situation scares me witless.
  419. bear can I ask Dave/Kev to prepare a post to members@ with details so we can have a discussion before January meeting?
  420. dwd And when I say "w", there, I mean "sh".
  421. stpeter I do see value sometimes in having examples that mimic those in RFCs, if we're trying to explain how to map between XMPP and SIP for instance, but that might not really be needed
  422. Kev I have no problem with us having a way to integrate third-party IP into XEPs if that's what we need, but that doesn't seem currently possible.
  423. Kev (And I'm not sure it's possible at all)
  424. stpeter nods
  425. stpeter something for further discussion
  426. dwd Kev, It *is*, it's just not how we work, and the RFC license doesn't give us the rights to extract the examples and relicense.
  427. stpeter IMHO it would help for someone (Kev? dwd?) to summarize what they perceive the current situation to be
  428. bear right, having the discussion start on members@ will help others understand/know about this
  429. stpeter bear: +1
  430. dwd Kev, You want to kick that one off?
  431. Kev Not in the slightest, but I can if I need to.
  432. dwd No, its OK, I will then.
  433. bear send me a draft of wording if you don't want to - or if dave doesn't
  434. bear ok, any other AOB?
  435. Kev It's not that I'm not comfortable with my wording, it's that I don't want to spend the effort writing it - I'm trying to save myself TODOs :)
  436. bear nods
  437. dwd I'm writing something now.
  438. Kev Thanks.
  439. Kev That's it from me.
  440. bear anyone else?
  441. ralphm nope
  442. bear ok, shall we end?
  443. bear bangs the gavel
  444. Kev Thanks all.
  445. bear thanks all for a great meeting
  446. bear I will get the minutes up soon(ish)
  447. bear I don't think we will be having a meeting next week
  448. bear is the council meeting?
  449. Lance bear council next is the 8th
  450. ralphm and that seems sensible for us as well
  451. bear any reason to not follow that example for the board?
  452. bear dwd?
  453. ralphm we can make decisions around actual meetings
  454. dwd We're not having on on Christmas or New Year's?
  455. ralphm dwd: yes
  456. bear dave, your more than welcome to be here talking those days :)
  457. stpeter speaking of which, have a super solstice, merry Christmas, cool Kwanza, happy New Year, and all that!
  458. dwd stpeter, And you, thanks.
  459. ralphm Oliebollen FTW!
  460. stpeter heehee
  461. bear what Ralph said!
  462. intosi ralphm: +1
  463. dwd I think we can hold off on official meetings until the 8th. It might be as well to ensure that Ralph has authority on FOSDEM issues.
  464. dwd That is, if Ralph decides to go ahead and book a van, he should be able to.
  465. bear +1
  466. bear if anything really needs deciding we can always take it to the mailing lists
  467. dwd (In other words, I'm proposing that Ralph should have executive powers in relation to FOSDEM)
  468. bear I have no problems with that
  469. stpeter WFM
  470. dwd ralphm, Right then, beer's are on you. :-)
  471. bear ha!
  472. bear Laura sends her apologies - a work meeting kept her away, she will be reading minutes and responding as needed.
  473. stpeter bear: thanks for letting us know
  474. bear I will get the minutes up soon and also a post to members@ about the next meeting
  475. bear wanders off to do $dayjob work now
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  482. dwd A "Solarus" just popped up on the IETF list... That brings back memories. :-)
  483. dwd stpeter, Did you note the XEP submission I sent to members@?
  484. dwd I've only just noticed it wasn't on either Council nor Board agendae.
  485. Zash huh
  486. dwd (And yes, I know that the plural of agenda is agenda, really, but it's not as fun).
  487. stpeter dwd: I did not, which is partly why we might want to have a Work Team to handle the editorial and registry functions
  488. dwd I should have sent it CC XEP Editor, really.
  489. stpeter I have over 6000 unread email messages....
  490. Kev And I feel bad about the number I have...
  491. dwd I only have 1,632. Yay?
  492. stpeter well, that's in one of my accounts -- I have 1296 in my @cisco account too, just for good measure
  493. dwd Those aren't important though.
  494. stpeter :)
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  514. stpeter hi emcho!
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  522. stpeter BTW, I heard Joe making reservations for Brussels... :-)
  523. fippo horay!
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  525. bear woo!
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  530. ralphm cool
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