Friday, January 10, 2014
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[06:52:39] <fippo> https://twitter.com/xnyhps/status/421402249357574144 -- is there an isoc press release somewhere?
[06:53:03] <fippo> ah... http://isoc.nl/innovatieaward/
[06:53:09] <bear> that is the first I've heard of it
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[08:28:53] <ralphm> By the way, the EPP Keyrelay has won that award.
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[11:23:54] <dwd> Alex, Sorry for the disruptive suggestion, I should probably have approached you quietly with that idea.
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[11:34:20] <Kev> I don't, FWIW, think it'd be useful to hold a member's meeting at the summit.
[11:36:01] <Kev> (And given that it's cheduled two days before the summit, I'm not sure many people are likely to be travelling to the summit on Tuesday night)
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[12:01:01] <ralphm> Working in Inkscape for the beanbag design. 140x180 is pretty damn big.
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[12:06:03] <intosi> To my father's house kwam net langs.
[12:06:08] <intosi> Random iTunes is best leuk ;)
[12:06:20] <ralphm> intosi: wrong window. But yeah.
[12:06:41] <intosi> Excellent ;)
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[12:25:46] <ralphm> Hm, maybe logo's of 40x40 are a bit BIG
[12:26:16] <ralphm> (cm)
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[12:29:58] <intosi> A little, perhaps.
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[12:32:23] <ralphm> I am also wondering about the background colour.
[12:33:33] <intosi> Which ones are you considering?
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[12:33:44] <Kev> 50 shades of pink.
[12:34:08] <intosi> Don't you mean sheds?
[12:34:20] <Kev> 50 shades of sheds.
[12:34:36] <Alex> dwd: no problem at all
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[12:35:19] <Alex> one of my good attentions for 2014 is to be more strict with the deadlines and timing ;-)
[12:35:58] <dwd> Kev, I think it'd be interesting to discuss the XSF's role at the Summit anyway, and having the formal meeting then could act as a useful focus.
[12:36:18] <dwd> Kev, Also, we could formally vote on what pizza to buy in again.
[12:37:18] <ralphm> intosi: basically white for the ones with the Jabber and XMPP logos, dark blue for the realtime logo one
[12:38:01] <Kev> So,
1) I don't think it needs to be a formal meeting to have discussions
2) If you want a formal meetings so we can vote on things we discuss, I think this excludes absent members from usefully contributing.
[12:39:16] <intosi> ralphm: are the covers washable? White might need that after one FOSDEM.
[12:41:26] <dwd> Kev, (1) No, it doesn't, but I think it would help focus and visibility. I do want a discussion, and if it's a formal meeting, this forces it to be announced, minuted, and so on, and avoids it being squeezed out by other items. (2) Yes, I wasn't serious about voting on pizza, but if a decision needs to be made, we would actually have quorum to make it (and we could vote on whether we *should* make it as well).
[12:41:29] <ralphm> yes, there's a zipper and a inner bag with the EPS
[12:42:26] <dwd> ralphm, I would have thought white for Jabber, possibly, but black for XSF. I'm not convinced we should have a Realtime one (or at least, not sure we should be funding it).
[12:42:29] <intosi> ralphm: good.
[12:42:58] <ralphm> intosi: the outer shell is made of 100% polyester with PU coating
[12:43:59] <Kev> dwd: Yes, I'm opposed to the possibility of voting happening at an in-person meeting based on discussions that happen at that meeting, effectively excluding from the meeting those people not present who will have voted on scheduled items by proxy.
[12:44:39] <ralphm> dwd: good point, I was thinking keeping the Realtime brand alive, with it being named Realtime Lounge and all.
[12:44:42] <Kev> I'd be much happier with just having the meeting in the normal format, and having a chat at the summit that whoever wants the discussion to happen (presumably you), minuting it and posting to the members list for wider discussion.
[12:44:53] <ralphm> dwd: i.e. not make it all about XMPP/Jabber per sé
[12:45:07] <Kev> ralphm: The XSF kinda is all about XMPP.
[12:45:24] <ralphm> Kev: wat!
[12:45:33] <ralphm> Kev: Couldn't you have told me before?
[12:45:42] <Kev> I didn't want to spoil the surprise.
[12:45:47] <Kev> Spoilers!
[12:46:21] <dwd> Kev, OK, you're welcome to be opposed to it, but the only way to actually prevent that possibility is to change the bylaws which allow it. If there's something special about an in-person meeting you find different in this respect, I'd be curious to know what it is.
[12:46:37] <dwd> (The bylaws actually *explicitly* allow it).
[12:46:56] <dwd> ralphm, I thought the XSF was all about mail. Why are we here anyway?
[12:46:57] <ralphm> Look, we have been doing a Realtime Lounge for getting other realtime technologies in the spotlight along with Jabber/XMPP. Things like IoT and WebRTC are only partially about XMPP and that's fine.
[12:47:25] <ralphm> We could also have it been called the Jabber Lounge.
[12:47:41] <intosi> dwd: for the last few days, XSF /was/ all about mail for me ;)
[12:47:47] <Kev> dwd: No, we prevent the possibility of voting happening at a meeting at the summit by not having a meeting at the summit.
[12:47:59] <Kev> There's no reason to go hyperbolic on this.
[12:48:20] <ralphm> We could also go to Delaware
[12:48:37] <Kev> And the thing I find different about an in-person meeting and the usual meetings is accessibility.
[12:49:11] <ralphm> Kidding aside, I don't see any value in having an in-person meeting for the stuff we usually do by proxy: voting new members in.
[12:49:36] <Kev> We could do an in-person meeting supplemented by viable vvoip or such, and that reduces the barrier -but I'm not sure we have the technology.
[12:49:42] <dwd> ralphm, But yes. I'm far from being against the realtime brand, just not convinced the XSF should be funding it in this way.
[12:50:22] <Kev> FWIW: Re: Realtime, if we want a Realtime brand as a way of bringing people into the XMPP fold, or of raising awareness for XMPP, that doesn't seem stupid. Although it doesn't seem like a clear-cut win either, to me.
[12:50:32] <dwd> ralphm, But your argument also holds for not having meetings at all.
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[12:50:46] <dwd> Kev, Thanks, that (Realtime) argument was better expressed than mine.
[12:52:09] <ralphm> dwd: I think voting by proxy and meeting in a MUC to confirm is basically the farthest we can stretch our By Laws to *avoid* having in-person meetings.
[12:52:21] <ralphm> dwd: a good thing IMO
[12:52:53] <ralphm> Kev: agreed, I cannot quantify the usefulness
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[12:54:15] <Kev> I think naming it the realtime lounge makes it more interesting, though - but once people are there, being clear that XMPP is all about the realtime seems fine.
[12:55:00] <Kev> With infinite resources I'd consider a banner
The Realtime Lounge
powered by XMPP
or something, but we don't have vast amounts of cash to throw around on such things.
[12:55:08] <ralphm> https://twitter.com/PubNub/status/421326157837893632
[12:55:13] <ralphm> is part of why for me
[12:55:21] <dwd> Kev, I think we'd have about 14 XSF members at the meeting, maybe a couple more. It's possible to ensure there's proactive inclusion, for want of a better prhase, for those in the MUC. (In fact, we could stipulate that any voting occurs exclusively through the MUC). I have no plans to force a vote, but our bylaws allow for this.
[12:55:32] <ralphm> although pubnub isn't really XMPP, it does support it
[12:56:34] <ralphm> Kev: agreed about the banner. I was thinking that if we have three bean bags, XMPP/Jabber/Realtime, this is already giving that signal
[12:56:42] <Kev> dwd: My concern isn't so much about the vote itself, that's easy to get into the MUC.
[12:56:52] <dwd> ralphm, Yes, more inclusion is better, certainly.
[12:57:01] <Kev> dwd: But if we're voting based on a discussion that happens, that discussion should be inclusive.
[12:57:03] <ralphm> And I think we should make sure we have a number of projectors to go instead of the banner to make it more obvious
[12:57:59] <dwd> Kev, Do you mean inclusive, or accessible?
[12:58:32] <Kev> ralphm: I'm not opposed to a beanbag with Realtime on (not that it matters if I am or not). I just don't see a beanbag with just Realtime on it as having a strong message to it, whereas "Realtime powered by XMPP" does. But...*shrug*...this is not my area of expertise.
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[12:58:35] <Kev> dwd: Yes.
[12:58:55] <ralphm> Kev, dwd: I also wonder how we could take entities like PubNub and probably &yet itself on their offers to help out doing this event.
[12:59:12] <Kev> dwd: In as much as stuff that happens on the mailing list is both inclusive and accessible.
[12:59:24] <ralphm> have them sponsor in kind, money, resources?
[12:59:57] <Kev> I don't think it harms to have people who're using XMPP have a banner or something behind, FWIW.
[13:00:31] <dwd> Kev, I ask because "inclusive" would imply "having as many people contribute as possible" to me, whereas "accessible" implies "having as many people potentially contribute as possible". My thought was that an in-person meeting would help the former, and the latter we'd have to be careful to avoid it suffering.
[13:01:01] <Kev> I don't like the XMPP T-Shirts having &yet on them, but having a poster that says "&yet support XMPP" is fine/good.
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[13:01:49] <Kev> dwd: I'm proposing that we have in-person discussions, which are high-bandwidth and likely to have significant contribution, and that these are summarised on-list where all members will hear the arguments (inclusive) and have the opportunity to contribute (accessible).
[13:01:55] <ralphm> I want to note again that posters are not going to be a thing with the physical properties of the walls surrounding the lounge, but yes
[13:02:26] <Kev> ralphm: Right. I mean the idea in general.
[13:02:47] <ralphm> Kev: right
[13:02:49] <Kev> We've shared the stand with companies who make use of XMPP before, and will presumably do so again this year.
[13:03:08] <Kev> OK, idea.
[13:03:19] <Kev> A slideshow cycling through people who use XMPP and a summary of what they do and why.
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[13:20:35] <ralphm> Kev: right
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[14:40:54] <fippo> kev: +1
[14:59:48] <ralphm> Possible designs for the beanbags. Comments welcome! http://mag.ik.nu/~ralphm/tmp/beanbags/
[15:01:23] <ralphm> (I like viewing them on 1:1 scale)
[15:01:52] <intosi> I need a bigger monitor.
[15:01:58] <ralphm> haha
[15:03:41] <intosi> The SVG and PDF versions show with a white background in my browser. I assume this is intentional?
[15:04:32] <ralphm> PDF doesn't seem to support background colors and I'm not sure why inkscape doesn't save them to SVG
[15:05:08] <ralphm> or, it does, but doesn't show this in normal renderings or something
[15:05:08] <dwd> ralphm, For Inkscape, I tended to add in a background rectangle for working.
[15:05:32] <dwd> ralphm, Mostly because SVG doesn't have a background colour for the whole thing. The page stuff is all Inkscape extensions.
[15:05:35] <ralphm> Last time I did this for a t-shirt, the printer didn't care
[15:06:04] <ralphm> I've also submitted these designs for review with the company
[15:06:09] <dwd> ralphm, As long as you give the printer the PNG as a guide, should be fine.
[15:06:20] <ralphm> and asked them if they have other-colored materials they print on
[15:06:53] <ralphm> I mean, if they have a nice darkblue fabric, that's better than having it printed such, I think
[15:08:50] <dwd> Oh. Yes, sorry, I assumed the fabric colour was choosable.
[15:09:14] <ralphm> I specifically asked them if light on dark can be done (I assume that's fine)
[15:09:27] <intosi> That's why I assumed you left out the background colour.
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[15:10:30] <ralphm> hey admin, do you have an update for us?
[15:11:05] <admin> they're looking into pricing
[15:12:05] <ralphm> they love us, so I hope that's quite fine
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[15:12:51] <intosi> ralphm: they probably love anyone who 1) pays for their rooms, and 2) do not trash them.
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[15:13:12] <ralphm> intosi: consider they usually get EU-related people in
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[15:22:32] <ralphm> dwd: anyway, looking good otherwise?
[15:23:25] <dwd> Yes, looks great otherwise.
[15:24:20] <intosi> ralphm: nice job
[15:25:31] <intosi> IANAD, so apply a grain of salt to my rating ;)
[15:26:31] <dwd> intosi, Oh, designing is easy. Just make it look pretty, and then write a paragraph or two referring to your "consistent design language", and your use of "intuitive metaphor".
[15:27:20] <dwd> When I was young, "design language" was called "style", or, sometimes, "look and feel".
[15:30:53] <intosi> A lot has changed since the 1880s ;-)
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[21:53:45] *** Simon shows as "online"
[21:54:05] *** Simon has left the room
[21:54:33] *** Simon shows as "online"
[21:59:36] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:04:39] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:09:42] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:12:58] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:12:58] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:13:10] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:13:10] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:14:46] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:19:48] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:24:52] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:27:43] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:27:44] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:28:05] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:28:05] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:29:41] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:29:41] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:29:55] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:30:41] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:30:41] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:30:41] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:30:50] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:30:51] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:32:51] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:32:51] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:33:07] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:33:07] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:34:21] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:34:21] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:34:58] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:35:08] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:35:08] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:35:08] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:35:08] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:36:22] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:36:22] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:39:19] *** stpeter has left the room
[22:40:02] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:40:42] *** Kev shows as "away"
[22:45:05] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:45:17] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:45:54] *** dwd shows as "online"
[22:50:08] *** Simon shows as "online"
[22:52:36] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:55:12] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:00:16] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:00:17] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:02:36] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:05:19] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:10:23] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:11:05] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:14:16] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:14:17] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:14:23] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:14:23] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:15:27] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:15:36] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:15:37] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:15:38] *** dwd shows as "online"
[23:16:12] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:16:13] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:16:13] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:16:25] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:16:25] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:16:27] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:16:27] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:18:52] *** tato has joined the room
[23:20:30] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:20:40] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:20:40] *** Alex has left the room
[23:25:34] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:30:37] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:30:40] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:35:42] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:40:36] *** Simon has left the room
[23:47:26] *** Simon has joined the room
[23:47:26] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:48:49] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:52:54] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:52:54] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:53:03] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:53:03] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:53:52] *** Simon shows as "online"
[23:58:54] *** Simon shows as "online"