XSF Discussion - 2014-01-15


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  38. Simon What's the current thinking on new XEP's using montague/capulet.lit vs example.com/org ?
  39. Simon #finally getting the bc XEP into shape
  40. Steffen Larsen I still vote for the example.org. even though we have a love for hamlet et al.
  41. Steffen Larsen It can be misleading
  42. Simon Steffen - my leaning too. But there's history…
  43. fippo simon: every author does what he/she wants ;)
  44. Simon fippo - that's an answer I can live with :)
  45. Steffen Larsen I know simon.. And even though I actually like the hamlet stuff and find it funny.. I still believe that common sense and example.org would be a lot better
  46. fippo http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html#sections-usecases still recommends that
  47. Kev I don't see a problem with using Shakespeare examples, FWIW.
  48. Kev Not a practical problem, anyway.
  49. Lloyd Personally I like the shakespeare examples, it also means I sound more cultured when the subject comes up.
  50. Simon Tomorrow's topic: painting the other bike shed.
  51. Steffen Larsen Its a not big problem as such, but by specifying example.org people can see that the domain and stanza is an explicit example
  52. Kev Finding Shakespeare examples is the only fun bit about writing XEPs ;)
  53. Kev Steffen Larsen: I don't think anyone's ever read a XEP and thought that only the three witches were able to do PEP, or whatever :)
  54. Steffen Larsen Kev: :-)
  55. Lloyd Kev :)
  56. Lloyd Their muc server is always down anyway
  57. Steffen Larsen Kev: try buying some of the domains (if not already taken) and see how many sta zas you get. ;-)
  58. Steffen Larsen stanzas
  59. Kev I'd like to give people more credit than that.
  60. Steffen Larsen heh
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  62. Simon what's the cost for a new top-level domain these days? XSF buying .lit
  63. Lloyd We could use .lt ?
  64. Lloyd * .li
  65. ralphm Simon: I didn't know Buddycloud was doing so well these days
  66. ralphm I believe it was around €180000
  67. ralphm I'm not sure if that's the entry fee, though
  68. Simon ok - scratch that idea. :)
  69. ralphm (initial price was $185000. Pretty close)
  70. Steffen Larsen cheap! buy!
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  77. FloRida yoyoyo peeps!
  78. FloRida I come with great news
  79. FloRida https://www.starwoodmeeting.com/StarGroupsWeb/res?id=1401152156&key=C2049
  80. kevin O_o
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  82. Kev Thanks Florian.
  83. Kev dwd / ralphm: Going to do the mail thing, then?
  84. Kev FloRida: So this is good to go?
  85. FloRida yup
  86. Kev Thanks very much.
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  88. dwd Morning. Yes, I'll sort that out now.
  89. dwd Unless ralphm has beaten me to it.
  90. ralphm dwd: go for it
  91. ralphm I am working on the final touches for the beanbags
  92. ralphm http://mag.ik.nu/~ralphm/tmp/beanbags/
  93. dwd Writing it now.
  94. ralphm intosi suggested putting the Jabber one on a dark background
  95. ralphm (I picked the colour, though)
  96. Kev Booked :)
  97. ralphm comments welcome, until I send them off
  98. Kev I'm not sure about the realtime one (Do people immediately recognise that as being realtime?), but the other two look good.
  99. ralphm Kev: well, I'm not sure about recognition, either, but combined with further projected branding that should be quite fine
  100. ralphm and hey, it's a clock!
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  102. intosi Booked.
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  107. winfried Are the beanbags for sale? :-P
  108. Lloyd Actually I could do with decorating the home office
  109. intosi /if/ they are for sale, they will be for sale with conditions (such as: available for next FOSDEM ;-) ). I'm not saying they will be.
  110. Kev intosi: I don't see why such a condition should be needed.
  111. dwd The XSF *could* order and make more of them.
  112. intosi Although I'm sure a few can be made as a special order.
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  114. ralphm :-D
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  116. intosi It's up to the FOSDEM-handling board member to make a decision on selling them, of course.
  117. ralphm I am sure something can be arranged
  118. ralphm also, the XSF would be quite willing to have these sponsored by individuals or companies
  119. ralphm In any case, the designs are off to the printer
  120. intosi ralphm: thank you!
  121. ralphm I wonder how much 380 liters of EPS weighs
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  123. intosi The definition of EPS is not very strict ;)
  124. Kev But it is Turing-complete.
  125. intosi Could be anything between 16 and 640 kg/m3
  126. ralphm 180x140cm. pretty big ass big
  127. ralphm and indeed Lloyd, I was thinking the same
  128. ralphm not sure how you'd get it back to .uk
  129. intosi Ralphm: a fat boy of that size is ±7 kg.
  130. intosi FATBOY, not a fat boy. The latter would be significantly heavier.
  131. Kev ralphm: It'd float, right?
  132. Ash Depends on the lead content of all the pies I suppose.
  133. dwd Kev, Only if it's a sealed volume.
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  135. Lloyd Fatboys float, fat is less dense than water
  136. intosi EPS usually floats.
  137. ralphm I wouldn't rely on this
  138. Lloyd ralphm: just buy covers, source innards in home country
  139. intosi Not for transportational purposes.
  140. ralphm Lloyd: totally possible. Their man product is flags
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  143. Steffen Larsen hmm I get no rooms available for the given date
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  148. dwd Flags?
  149. dwd We can start the summit with a procession?
  150. Steffen Larsen I am trying to bok from the 29'th to 2'feb.. no rooms avail?
  151. Steffen Larsen book
  152. Lloyd Who will book the marching band?
  153. Steffen Larsen ha ha
  154. Lloyd Steffan Larsen. maybe block booking doesn't cover the wednesday? Try from Thursday onwards
  155. Lloyd (I haven't booked BTW)
  156. dwd Lloyd, It *should* cover that.
  157. dwd [11:11:14] Florian Jensen: ALOFT BRUSSELS SCHUMAN -          20/25 Lofts from 29/01 – 03/02/2014 -          Week rate (29+30/02): 165 euro per room & per night -          Weekend rate (31/01+01+02/02): 75 euro per room & per night -          Breakfast included served at the re;fuel -          Supplement of 10 euro for a double room
  158. dwd That's what I have.
  159. dwd FloRida, Ping?
  160. Steffen Larsen yes it says that it covers it.. but it does not work
  161. Steffen Larsen but I have a flight Wednesday.. so I need a room
  162. Kev I managed 29th->2nd fine.
  163. Steffen Larsen hmm
  164. winfried Fully booked already?
  165. Kev Maybe the rooms genuinely are all gone?
  166. Steffen Larsen tryind in various browsers
  167. Steffen Larsen ;-)
  168. dwd Kev, We've a block of 25 locked for us, so I hope not.
  169. Lloyd Martin, Ash, and myself get booked off that group due to new PA organising, so there should be at least 3 free
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  171. Steffen Larsen well changing the startdate.. still doesnt work
  172. dwd Huh. I get the same thing.
  173. Steffen Larsen Cant make it work!
  174. Steffen Larsen so.. something is wrong from the hotel service I think.
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  176. ralphm or we will have quite the party
  177. fippo dwd: realtime conf spoiled you
  178. Simon realtimeconf spoilt me for sure. That was fun!
  179. Kev I wonder why it would be failing now. It was certainly working earlier when the four Isode folks booked.
  180. Steffen Larsen well.. now it just fails no matter what
  181. Simon I'm booking for three so if anyone wants to double up on the second room, let me know.
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  183. fippo https://twitter.com/disruptivedean/status/423390001309556736 -- *sigh*
  184. fippo simon: ping!
  185. Simon fippo: ACK. Will do.
  186. ralphm fippo: yes, people still sometimes suggest Skype to me. bwahaha
  187. ralphm I did manage to get a reservation earlier
  188. ralphm dwd: hmm, maybe the yetis could bring the rt flags
  189. Lance ralphm nope
  190. Lance at least not with flagpoles
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  193. FloRida so far 6 rooms are booked
  194. Lloyd ralphm fippo: skype? surely just visit one of these and log in: http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/xmpp-ftw/ http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/stanzaio/ http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/strophejingle/ http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/jslix-jingle/
  195. fippo lloyd: WE know better of course
  196. dwd FloRida, It's rejecting me and Steffan for the whole period.
  197. FloRida that's odd
  198. Steffen Larsen Jup!
  199. dwd FloRida, We've got a 25-room block reservation, haven't we?
  200. Steffen Larsen maybe its a 2.5 block ;-)
  201. Lance has same reservation problems
  202. dwd Lance, I have some reservations, but not a hotel one.
  203. dwd is quite proud of that joke.
  204. Lance dwd you read the user-auth proposal too?
  205. dwd The "two factor" one?
  206. Lance yeah
  207. dwd I spent ages trying to decide what the other factor was.
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  212. ralphm Lance: of course without the poles
  213. ralphm Lance: I wasn't actually suggesting it, I think
  214. ralphm Lance: except maybe the one with the realtime logo on it
  215. Lance ralphm i'll see what i can get from storage then
  216. ralphm :-)
  217. ralphm Lance: by the way, you can tell Amy I found an svg of the logo after all
  218. ralphm It's funny to see the hour markers have rounded corners on the t-shirts (only), I did the same for the bean bag
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  226. FloRida reservation problems: they're on it
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  228. ralphm FloRida: cool
  229. FloRida screenshots guys?
  230. FloRida of the error
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  233. dwd Aloft Brussels Schuman - Thank you for your message. We regret to inform you that the selected room is not available on the required dates. You can contact Bram Visser, bram.visser@alofthotels.com who will be there to assist you.
  234. Steffen Larsen got the same 100 times now
  235. Steffen Larsen I've written to the email but no answer yet
  236. dwd I am attempting to use file transfer to send you a screenshot.
  237. dwd Optimistic, aren't I?
  238. dwd FloRida, ^^
  239. FloRida cl.ly
  240. dwd FloRida, Doesn't seem to run on Linux.
  241. FloRida it's web based
  242. dwd https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/46064438/Screenshot%20from%202014-01-15%2013%3A20%3A47.png
  243. FloRida sent
  244. FloRida can you try again?
  245. dwd Working
  246. ralphm woot
  247. intosi \o/
  248. Simon Anyone work out how to get two twin beds? Much as I love you all…
  249. dwd No idea. Bed options are either King or No Pref.
  250. dwd No Poref, by the way, gets you King.
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  252. MattJ Ouch, that happened to Waqas and I once. We ended up dismantling the bed somewhat
  253. MattJ We were late to check out the next morning, having had to spend a long time putting it back so that no-one would notice
  254. Simon "do not cross the [imaginary] line"
  255. MattJ :)
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  261. intosi I'll bring duct tape just in case anyone needs it ;)
  262. dwd intosi, Just sharing a bed is enough, no need for that kind of thing.
  263. intosi To mark off their side of the bed...
  264. dwd intosi, Oh, right. Yes.
  265. Simon yeah yeah...
  266. intosi Hmpf.
  267. FloRida lol
  268. Simon nice to see XEPs getting a security review on the [esteemed] cryptography mailing list http://lists.randombit.net/pipermail/cryptography/2014-January/006175.html
  269. Steffen Larsen Super! got a room now
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  274. ralphm Turns out the beanbags are about 6kg
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  299. ralphm Getting some food, might be in slightly later
  300. Simon I'll need to leave after 30mins.
  301. Simon (30 mins after the start)
  302. Kev Council ran to 10 minutes today, it was a long one. So Board will have to make up for that :)
  303. Simon the board picking up after the council again. Sigh!
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  308. intosi 10 minutes, tsk.
  309. stpeter has joined
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  311. stpeter howdy
  312. intosi G'day
  313. Simon hi
  314. dwd waves
  315. stpeter wow, lots of folks here today
  316. Laura Hi!
  317. stpeter hi Laura!
  318. dwd stpeter, The XSF is now officially popular.
  319. stpeter heh
  320. Laura Where all the cool kids are
  321. stpeter the cool factor comes and goes
  322. ralphm waves
  323. MattJ Time to start requiring TLS on s2s connections here? :)
  324. stpeter at least xmpp.org ought to be participate in the next test day
  325. MattJ Definitely
  326. stpeter I'm requiring it still on stpeter.im and I was able to join here
  327. Lloyd [surevine.com does too]
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  329. Kev I'd actually argue that we want xmpp.org to be as inclusive as possible, and blocking S2S is unhelpful for that, especially when all traffic to/from xmpp.org is publicly logged so there's no security gain.
  330. Zash -cipher xmpp.org
  331. Bunneh Zash: Connection to xmpp.org uses cipher RC4-MD5
  332. Kev s/inclusive/accessible/
  333. Zash Mumble
  334. Zash *Mumble*
  335. stpeter so in any case does the Board have quorum?
  336. ralphm I think we're all here
  337. stpeter (Kev: I see your point)
  338. bear waves
  339. ralphm hands bear the gavel
  340. stpeter ok!
  341. dwd We have a full house.
  342. bear ralphm, Laura, Simon, me - quorom
  343. bear and dave
  344. bear bangs the gavel
  345. ralphm :-D
  346. bear peter has the floor
  347. stpeter oh
  348. stpeter well, the Board needs to decide about approving the two work team charters
  349. stpeter and there's FOSDEM/Summit
  350. stpeter anything else on the agenda today?
  351. stpeter we still need to write a post on the website about the ISOC sponsorship, too
  352. Simon Was there any comments on the security side (manifesto or otherwise)?
  353. stpeter Simon: I don't think we've necessarily collected data about the test day
  354. bear sorry - I just meant that peter's two agenda items are up
  355. stpeter bear: ok
  356. bear ack - server is offline - I will be lurking - Ralph can you run the meeting for a bit?
  357. ralphm sure
  358. stpeter Dave has provided feedback on the Editorial Team charter
  359. Simon I'd like to table a quick DNSSEC discussion that might involve us working with Council on documentation
  360. ralphm any other items?
  361. stpeter ralphm: I don't think so
  362. ralphm good.
  363. dwd stpeter, I'm fine with it, excepting "In order to improve the management of these processes" - I think with that struck it's good.
  364. ralphm 1) UPnP liason
  365. stpeter (in fact we have possible liaison relationships with ISO and IEC to figure out too, so we need to get this "template" figured out)
  366. stpeter s/possible/likely/
  367. ralphm any comments on the team charter?
  368. Simon Both seem good to me.
  369. stpeter my main concern is not the charter but our ability to recruit people (XSF members) to participate
  370. ralphm My only question is about who'll be in them
  371. stpeter at least for the liaison teams
  372. ralphm and how many of them for each
  373. stpeter since we'll have 3 of them to start (UPnP, ISO, IEC)
  374. dwd It looks good to me. As I (think I) said, there's some worry surrounding IPR for the UPnP liason team, but we can figure that out as we go.
  375. stpeter dwd: UPnP, ISO, and IEC all have much more restrictive IPR rules than we do
  376. stpeter so we need to decide if we're comfortable with that
  377. ralphm I'd also prefer at least one council member to be part of the liason teams
  378. stpeter e.g., they lock down discussion and specs until they go public after the specs are baked
  379. stpeter ralphm: makes sense
  380. dwd stpeter, Mostly, I agree, but the XSF's assignment stuff invokes complexity in the other direction, too.
  381. bear the IPR issue, for me, isn't a huge worry as we would be advising in this role
  382. stpeter bear: that's how I see it, too
  383. Kev It's not the IPR per se, in terms of license of teh documents, but essentially being under NDA seems actively unhelpful. Not that it makes any difference what I think.
  384. stpeter dwd: in which direction?
  385. dwd stpeter, Anything coming our way.
  386. bear we would just have to be careful of the wording of the NDA
  387. stpeter Kev: I'm not an NDA fan, myself, so philosophically I agree, but if we want to help these other SDOs we need to play by their rules
  388. ralphm how do possible patent disclosures work for liasons? Are the people in teams there as individuals or as officers of the Foundation?
  389. dwd ralphm, Not "officers", but representatives, certainly.
  390. stpeter dwd: I see that as unlikely for now given my discussions with these folks so far
  391. stpeter ralphm: as representatives, yes
  392. dwd As far as NDA goes, I think we should gently push for XMPP related specs to be publicly discussed if at all possible, but these SDOs are generally more comfortable with full secrecy.
  393. ralphm does that still bind them with knowledge they may have outside their representing the Foundation, like, say, their employer?
  394. dwd Can't be as bad as the OMA, mind.
  395. dwd ralphm, Probably.
  396. stpeter dwd: right, and I don't see us changing ISO policies :-)
  397. dwd stpeter, Are ISO that much bigger than us, then?
  398. dwd waits to see if stpeter will take him seriously.
  399. Simon They have more than a PO box in Colorado - offices in Switzerland :)
  400. Tobias bigger in terms of us angle brackets usage?
  401. ralphm ISO has 163 members, according to wikipedia
  402. dwd Simon, TO be fair, we don't actually have a PO Box yet... :-)
  403. stpeter has been to the ISO offices...
  404. ralphm dwd: correction, anymore
  405. stpeter ralphm: I am not sure about that "binding" question
  406. stpeter IMHO we have an opportunity to help these groups, and we should take advantage of that
  407. ralphm agreed
  408. dwd Agreed.
  409. stpeter they're inviting us into their house to help, and we ought to respect their house rules :-)
  410. ralphm but I'm sure companies might want to know if their employees, because they become part of such a team, will be required to relinguish information
  411. dwd And once we're invited in, we can always return and drink their blood.
  412. dwd Or was that vampires?
  413. stpeter ralphm: right, that's a good question
  414. ralphm so at least we should know how that works
  415. bear IMO we should for the teams, with Council support - and then find out what it is like once "on the inside"
  416. stpeter ralphm: I can find out about that from the various SDOs
  417. bear we can always stop if IPR or NDA gets onorous
  418. stpeter bear: nod
  419. fsteinel has joined
  420. Kev bear: The problem with that is that we're in a position where we (outside the team) can't know how onerous it is :)
  421. ralphm bear: if that's an option, I'm all for it
  422. Kev This all seems messy and underisable, but we should help these folks so we probably have to live with it.
  423. bear the team can report to the board if something is fishy
  424. stpeter Kev: right, that's how I see it
  425. stpeter I mean, the way that these groups work is quite foreign to us
  426. Kev has left
  427. bear it's how i've worked in the past as a consultant
  428. stpeter company-based membership or even country-based membership
  429. Kev has joined
  430. Kev bear: Yes. But what essentially happens then is that the work team get to tear down the liason unilaterally, as they can't tell Board what's fishy :)
  431. stpeter Kev: no, I disagree
  432. dwd Kev, I didn't *think* that the terms of liason would ever be secret.
  433. Kev Ahhar, excellent. I'd misunderstood. If details can be freely shared within the XSF there seems limited issue.
  434. stpeter Kev: they can't reveal the technical information, but if they think the liaison relationship isn't working or they have process / legal concerns, I think that's definitely open for discussion with the board
  435. Kev has left
  436. stpeter or with the membership
  437. ralphm right
  438. bear right
  439. dwd The only dangerous possibility I see is someone deciding to wedge a non-RF patent into the specs.
  440. Kev has joined
  441. stpeter dwd: into our specs or their specs?
  442. bear but any action to *our* specs would have to follow our process
  443. stpeter notes that Simon needs to leave soon
  444. stpeter bear: yes
  445. dwd stpeter, Well, I'm thinking into XMPP-related their-specs.
  446. ralphm ok
  447. ralphm so we agree on this charter for UPnP?
  448. dwd Yes.
  449. bear I don't see any major blockers to moving forward with this
  450. ralphm +1
  451. bear +1
  452. Simon +1
  453. dwd Well, I'm voting yes anyway.
  454. ralphm While we await Laura's vote
  455. ralphm let's move on to
  456. ralphm 2) Editor Team Charter
  457. ralphm +1
  458. dwd +1
  459. bear +1 for editor team charter
  460. dwd (With removal of clause as discussed)
  461. stpeter dwd: noted
  462. Laura +1 (as much as I understand)
  463. bear (as amended, yes sorry)
  464. ralphm Laura: on 1) or 2) or both?
  465. Simon +1
  466. stpeter thinks that we might want to have these charters under source control, as we do for XEPs and other official things
  467. intosi stpeter: good idea
  468. ralphm Simon, how much time do you have still?
  469. Simon I have 5 mins
  470. ralphm ok
  471. Simon Well I'll jump in quickly.
  472. stpeter thanks, Simon!
  473. ralphm In that case I want to quickly have your confirmations on refunding bean bags and hiring a cargo van for FOSDEM
  474. ralphm 3 ^
  475. Simon So we have a bit of an issue: with DNSSEC potentially solving lots of problems for the XMPP community to do witih security but a) no modules in servers that fully support it and b) no doucemntation
  476. dwd I'm in favour of both.
  477. Laura Beanbags - my contacts have been unable to help (getting them Brussels is the problem)
  478. Laura Has someone found a good supplier?
  479. dwd Laura, Ralph has.
  480. Simon so I asked Shuman to write up a page on securing DNS as a first step: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Securing_DNS
  481. ralphm Laura: I have actually already ordered them
  482. Laura Oh wow!
  483. Laura 1 step behind...
  484. ralphm they will be 180x140 cm
  485. bear +1 to beanbags and +1 for van
  486. ralphm three different ones
  487. Simon but we need to find a way to, especially after the ISOC grant, to have more traction on getting this to work on the XMPP server level.
  488. ralphm http://mag.ik.nu/~ralphm/tmp/beanbags/
  489. ralphm designs ^
  490. Simon So my question is: how do we turn http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Securing_DNS into real code and implemented security on running servers?
  491. stpeter Simon: BTW, we can apply for another grant specifically about DNSSEC — the existing one was just to recognize us for being good people doing good work
  492. Simon Perhaps GSOC could help us with this too
  493. bear we should probably get the xmpp.net folks looking at it and then get some tools in place so that the membership can start pressuring their server vendors
  494. Simon They already check it.
  495. dwd Simon, We can either: a) Offer Actual Cash™ to those implementing it. b) Make it known we're going to call attention to implementation supporting DNSSEC.
  496. Lloyd has left
  497. ralphm Simon: while we discuss your point as well, could you vote on the FOSDEM thingies as well, before you leave?
  498. Simon but there is no good doc on how to set it up and even Prosody's DNSSEC modules don't do everything.
  499. Simon "even prosody" :)
  500. Simon Perhaps I'll take this to the mailing list(s).
  501. ralphm Simon: agreed
  502. Simon Its not really a voting thing. Just something that concerns me about the [general lack of] security in XMPP-land.
  503. stpeter Simon: I totally agree, we need to improve things here to the extent we can (obviously there are limits to our influence over DNS stacks and such)
  504. intosi hhh
  505. stpeter Simon: hey, we're getting there slowly but surely
  506. ralphm Simon: well, we are slightly making people more aware of these things
  507. bear getting it on the members list and then adding it to the summit agenda = +1
  508. dwd Simon, If you want the XSF to do something, the only things we can positively offer as incentive are recognition or cash. Different groups are going to respond better to one or other.
  509. ralphm bear: should it be a members-only discussion?
  510. Kev dwd: I don't believe that's true.
  511. ralphm isn't standards a better venue?
  512. Zash Psst, Simon, I wrote a DANE module for prosody ;)
  513. Simon agreed. Just surprised that we're still in the era of a) trusing DNS and not checking certs for validity. <sad face>
  514. Kev dwd: I think there's also, at least, lowering the barrier to entry.
  515. dwd Kev, In what respect?
  516. stpeter ralphm: yes, standards@
  517. ralphm or maybe even jdev@
  518. Kev dwd: If you want people to do something, making it easier to do that thing can only help.
  519. dwd Kev, Yes, I agree, but how can the XSF make it easier?
  520. Simon I'll Jdev it in the morning.
  521. ralphm Simon: thanks
  522. bear ack, yes - not members - nice catch
  523. Kev How that might look is another question. Writing a guide to doing dnssec, with sample code or whatever, is one option.
  524. Kev From an XMPP PoV.
  525. Simon jumping off now. later guys.
  526. ralphm Simon: can you place your votes on FOSDEM thingies before leaving
  527. Kev (In some sensible language that everyone has access to, so presumably C)
  528. Simon What am I voting on?
  529. dwd Kev, That'll certainly help all those servers written in C. ;-)
  530. fippo kev: +1 :-)
  531. ralphm Simon: beanbags and hiring a cargo ba
  532. ralphm van
  533. Laura My vote +1
  534. Kev I'm presuming that all servers have access to C. Lots of Prosody's underlyings are, at least.
  535. ralphm Ok, I think we covered the DNS and security item on the agenda
  536. Simon Who are the beanbags for?
  537. Kev But it illustrates my point, regardless. Making things easy is another option.
  538. ralphm Simon: for people to lounge on
  539. dwd Simon, Us, at FOSDEM.
  540. Simon DWD - that's my issue. There's too much lounging at the realtime lounge and not enough interaction with potential folk.
  541. stpeter at the realtime lounge
  542. Simon it becomes a comfy hangout for us.
  543. ralphm Simon: I welcome you to become reengaged in the discussion on what we'll be doing at FOSDEM
  544. Simon which I don't think is the best use of funds.
  545. Simon I'm more a fan of the tables and demos on tables
  546. ralphm Simon: there will be lots of that, too. We have been discussion quite a bit of stuff over the last month
  547. Simon Sorry - been offline.
  548. Simon but yeah
  549. Simon I've never through the reclining thing is a great way to sell XMPP - too intimiate to be doing with a FOSDEM stranger.
  550. bear nothing wrong with a -1 vote for the fosdem item
  551. ralphm bear: agreed
  552. Simon I'm on the -1 for spending on these thigns then :)
  553. Simon +1 for spending on posters etc that get people to the booth.
  554. dwd Simon, Are you -1 on the van as well?
  555. Simon but I'll follow up on the list too then.
  556. Simon Can't see the point tbh.
  557. Simon -1 on van
  558. ralphm Simon: we will not do posters (made of paper) as there's no way to properly hang them, but we'll try projecting stuff on the walls
  559. dwd Simon, OK, I look forward to you carrying stuff from Cisco, then. :-)
  560. ralphm Simon: can I ask you to drive all the stuff from storage to FOSDEM?
  561. dwd ralphm, I'm actually keen on posters, too.
  562. Simon Ralphm - I mean around the campus.
  563. dwd Simon, Right.
  564. dwd I've one design done, another in the works.
  565. Laura Posters are a great idea
  566. ralphm dwd: paper poster elsewhere is a good thing, but the place where the lounge will be at has horrible walls
  567. Laura Spread the word further than the stand
  568. dwd Laura, Right.
  569. fsteinel has left
  570. Simon has left
  571. ralphm Well, summarizing that bit then, I see 4 people with +1 on both the van and the beanbags, and one -1
  572. ralphm right?
  573. bear correct
  574. Laura Looks right to me
  575. dwd Looked that way to me
  576. ralphm ok
  577. Kev Didn't you already vote that Ralph could do whatever he wanted anyway, for FOSDEM logistics?
  578. dwd Are we voting on how the vote went?
  579. dwd Kev, Yes, we did.
  580. Kev As long as Stuff Got Done.
  581. ralphm Kev: I wanted to make sure in this particular case
  582. ralphm I am still doing whatever I want, of course
  583. stpeter is sorry that he won't be in Brussels to help out
  584. stpeter BTW I do have confirmation of the meeting room on Thursday and Friday
  585. intosi Kev: I remember something like that.
  586. ralphm stpeter: no worries
  587. stpeter y'all need to figure out what you want to do for food
  588. ralphm stpeter: that
  589. ralphm stpeter and
  590. Laura Oooh Food
  591. stpeter there's a little café at the Cisco office there for coffee
  592. Laura Will be much needed
  593. ralphm stpeter: I would like to have some projectors. Do you think we can borrow those again?
  594. Kev How big is the pizza budget? :D
  595. stpeter I can arrange for lunches, or you guys can call out to pizza.be or whatever
  596. dwd Pizza works.
  597. stpeter ralphm: yes, I can arrange that with Jerome
  598. stpeter hildjj will be there in person so he can help with all that
  599. Laura Pizza good
  600. bear I will sponsor the Pizza budget for the Summit
  601. ralphm stpeter: right, I thought giving them a heads-up would be a good thing
  602. ralphm bear: thanks!
  603. Laura Thank you Bear!
  604. bear (well, as long as they take american cards)
  605. stpeter I'm thinking now that it would have been good for me to stay on one more week with Cisco to at least be able to arrange things at the last minute from inside
  606. ralphm bear: send me your logo to project along with other sponsors
  607. stpeter but I can have people help out, like linuxwolf
  608. bear hahaha
  609. ralphm stpeter: we'll probably be fine
  610. stpeter ralphm: I have contacts on the inside who can help here and there :-)
  611. dwd Speaking of meals, I've spoken with Florian, and he is booking the Auberge Brétonne (AKA, Florian's Babysitter), for Saturday. I'll be passing around a hat for sponsors as is traditional.
  612. bear getting the room reserved is like 99% of the pain for an event
  613. ralphm bear: and hotels :-D
  614. bear is that the place we ate at last time?
  615. Laura What about Thursday night - summit night?
  616. ralphm bear: yes, we go there tradionally for YEARS
  617. dwd bear, That's the traditional place.
  618. Kev Laura: People will probably just mingle organically.
  619. Kev There's a decent place 5mins walk from the hotel.
  620. Laura Ah man, am I going to miss the big get together dinner?
  621. bear I know I will be at the nearest Pub
  622. Kev And I think multiple, even.
  623. dwd Laura, The XSF Dinner is on Saturday partly because there's at least one sponsor for which the controller of the budget is only there on Saturday.
  624. Laura Booooo *grows up and stops acting like a child*
  625. bear chuckles
  626. ralphm Laura: we'll make it up to you
  627. intosi grins
  628. dwd Laura, Can't you extend your stay by a night?
  629. Laura I wish - at a wedding Saturday morning!
  630. dwd Laura, Unless it's yours, this is surely more important? ;-)
  631. intosi dwd: skipping them is frowned upon.
  632. Laura Ha ha, not mine or I might be panicking more!
  633. Laura Very old friends unfortunately or I would miss it!
  634. ralphm ok, ok, moving on
  635. Laura And I am involved, so absence would probably be noticed!
  636. ralphm anything else FOSDEM we need to discuss here?
  637. stpeter I think not
  638. Laura Not from me
  639. ralphm ok
  640. bear then we will need to have an amazing evening thurs or fri to help Laura feel less angst about missing Sat ;)
  641. Laura Hurrah! (and Thurs)
  642. ralphm 5) ISOC post
  643. dwd Laura, Any chance you could draft something about the ISoc gift?
  644. Laura Sure can!
  645. dwd Laura, Not wanting to push work onto you, but I suspect you'd craft the best words.
  646. bear if Laura can do some wordsmithing I will do the work to get it posted
  647. Laura I can wordsmith
  648. Laura Can someone send me the details and I will write it tomorrow?
  649. dwd I think the details have already gone to the Board list, but I can dig them out again.
  650. Laura I will find them
  651. ralphm awesome
  652. stpeter Laura: thanks
  653. ralphm then, I think we are at
  654. stpeter I can help / review
  655. ralphm 6) AOB
  656. Laura Thanks
  657. stpeter Laura: I know the details / back story since I have a relationship with our friends at ISOC
  658. ralphm none, I assume
  659. Laura Great
  660. ralphm 7) Date of Next
  661. ralphm +1W
  662. ralphm 8) Thanks all!
  663. dwd Thanks ralphm.
  664. ralphm bangs the gavel
  665. bear thanks ralph!
  666. Laura Bye all, thanks very much
  667. stpeter thanks Laura!!!
  668. bear apologizes for his servers acting up during the meeting
  669. ralphm wonder if a printer would be handy to have at FOSDEM
  670. bear Laura, do you think we should be doing regular posts between now and FOSDEM advertising the Realtime Lounge?
  671. ralphm bear: no worries, I'm happy to chair meetings every now and then
  672. stpeter ralphm: doesn't the FOSDEM team have a printer?
  673. Kev bear: I think that if you have a plan of what will be demod at the stand, then blog posts about those demos in advance might help.
  674. bear kev - agreed
  675. ralphm stpeter: I don't want to burden them with that
  676. dwd Yeah, we should nail stuff down.
  677. Kev The FOSDEM team gets pretty busy, I think :)
  678. stpeter well sure
  679. Kev Something none of us can relate to :D
  680. intosi We used to bring a printer the first few years.
  681. ralphm I think I might have an old deskjet lying around
  682. intosi Came in handy from time to time.
  683. stpeter do we have a better plan for remote participation in the Summit?
  684. ralphm stpeter: now you become interested in this, huh?
  685. MattJ :P
  686. stpeter :P
  687. dwd stpeter, Oh, good point.
  688. dwd stpeter, DO you have decent contacts with the Meetecho guys?
  689. stpeter brb
  690. stpeter dwd: yes I do
  691. dwd stpeter, It might be good to get them over/involved/etc.
  692. stpeter but I don't know if we'd be able to run their stuff — we could invite them to the Summit
  693. dwd stpeter, Right.
  694. stpeter ok I will reach out to them
  695. dwd stpeter, Can you drop them a line?
  696. dwd Thanks!
  697. Kev Jitsi videobridge? :)
  698. dwd runs off for food.
  699. stpeter yes, will ping the meetecho guys now
  700. MattJ Ok, if meeting and FOSDEM stuff is over...
  701. MattJ Unencrypted s2s connections to {,muc.}xmpp.org: gmail.com, uww.edu, cisco.com, coversant.net, jit.si, imaginator.com, jabber.bluendo.com
  702. ralphm I can't even connect to cisco.com anymore
  703. ralphm without enforcing encryption
  704. ralphm 'undefined-condition'
  705. MattJ Weird
  706. ralphm maybe certain ciphers or something
  707. ralphm but really, this should be in jdev@
  708. stpeter dwd: email sent to our Meetecho friends
  709. Tobias has joined
  710. MattJ Enforcing TLS on xmpp.org will affect peoples' ability to vote
  711. MattJ I could work out which members are affected, and ping them
  712. Kev I think we should simply not do it.
  713. MattJ So unencrypted membership voting is ok? :)
  714. Kev Yes.
  715. Kev If that's what people choose.
  716. Kev I don't care so much, as long as a long notice period is given for people to migrate to other accounts for XSF stuff.
  717. bear I agree with Kev - xmpp.org is special in this case
  718. Kev A couple of months or whatever.
  719. Zash MattJ
  720. Zash MattJ, mod_manifesto in reverse for the voting bot
  721. bear we should warn/remind our members that until ubiquitous security is in place that *they* need to make sure their s2s is secure
  722. MattJ Shouldn't xmpp.org really be setting an example?
  723. MattJ and XSF members by extension
  724. Zash s/xmpp.org/XSF Members/
  725. bear not when that example excludes members who may need to be shown how to do it
  726. stpeter bear: well, we could always create @xmpp.org accounts for members
  727. MattJ I was going to say they only need to create an account on jabber.org... :)
  728. Zash Surely we can help those than need help.
  729. bear when moving from a status quo of oh-my-god-no-security to locked-down-tight we have to err on the side of open
  730. waqas imagines a mod which informs remote JIDs when their s2s link is less than good
  731. MattJ waqas, already written
  732. Kev stpeter: I think we shouldn't do that, personally :)
  733. waqas MattJ: Which one? The last one I saw was for local users, not remote
  734. MattJ Yeah, I agree with not handing out xmpp.org JIDs, that has come up before and general consensus was against it
  735. Kev But if we can work out which members are affected (we have the memberbot roster for this), then we can announce a two-month-out date, and check each individually that they know they have to migrate servers.
  736. bear let's find out how many members are impacted
  737. stpeter dwd: BTW I am working on an I-D for the STRINT workshop before the London IETF meeting, see https://github.com/stpeter/xmpp-sec/blob/master/draft-saintandre-strint-workshop-xmpp.xml
  738. bear +1 to what Kev just suggested
  739. Zash s/migrate/migrate or fix/
  740. stpeter Kev: that seems reasonable
  741. MattJ > 17:33:30 MattJ> I could work out which members are affected, and ping them
  742. Kev Zash: I bet these people aren't running their own servers. I don't think any XSF member is going to be running a server without any TLS.
  743. MattJ Before you said you disagreed :)
  744. MattJ Kev, *cough*
  745. stpeter MattJ: you = ?
  746. Kev MattJ: I don't agree with participating in the encryption days.
  747. Kev MattJ: I don't oppose having a long-term plan to encrypt stuff, carefully.
  748. MattJ Kev, until recently several were, but ok... few now
  749. Zash ... dwd
  750. MattJ stpeter, sorry, that was addressed to Kev
  751. bear modify the MUC to report security status when joining ;)
  752. MattJ and I guess bear :)
  753. MattJ and the suggestion of pinging people before enablig it
  754. bear Matt - gather data and report it to members@
  755. bear let's get the conversation going
  756. MattJ Shall do
  757. bear thanks
  758. Zash \o/
  759. stpeter bear: yeah, Justin Karneges suggested a tag for that
  760. bear all insecure connections should be auto-assigned the role of "clueless" ?
  761. Zash Hah
  762. MattJ If only we still had groupchat-style join/part messages :)
  763. stpeter yeah I always liked those
  764. bear turns his attention to a server that just doesn't want to work this morning
  765. Kev Shove it in their presence?
  766. Tobias MattJ, oh noes...the bload
  767. Kev "My connection is insecure, please let me know"
  768. bear ugh - I *hate* part/join messages
  769. stpeter "/me disappears in a puff of smoke" and all that
  770. Tobias MattJ, oh noes...the bloat
  771. waqas Send them PMs? :)
  772. bear the only client that does it properly is Swift
  773. Tobias we could also put silly *hats* on them ^^
  774. Tobias if we only had a XEP for that
  775. Kev bear: You'd be surprised how much work that was, too. But thank you :)
  776. bear not surprised at all - I'm glad that you got it working so well
  777. MattJ Tobias, oh, overlay a silly hat on their avatar
  778. Tobias MattJ, yup..intercept avatar request and render that :)
  779. Tobias just wanted to suggest that ^^
  780. Tobias MattJ, just needs a imagemagick lua binding
  781. ralphm bear, Kev: how's that?
  782. stpeter a little unlocked / insecure icon might jolt some people into taking action of some kind, I agree
  783. bear also
  784. Kev ralphm: sezuan, bruce.stephens@isode.com and aman have left the room and Tobias and Steve Kille have left then returned to the room
  785. Zash -xep Hats
  786. Bunneh Zash: XEP-0317: Hats is Standards Track (Experimental, 2013-01-03) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0317.html
  787. Zash Tobias: Do it!
  788. Kev ralphm: Which gets updated as people join and leave, so that all presence in a block is compressed to a single message.
  789. Tobias Zash, clients implementing vcard based avatars = all, clients implementing Hats = 0?
  790. stpeter actually Hats needs to be deferred — where's that Editorial Team when you need them? ;-)
  791. Laura has left
  792. apophys has left
  793. dwd Ooooh. Hats has example.edu - not an example domain as far as I can recall.
  794. MattJ Yeah, I went to Example University
  795. dwd MattJ, But that was surely example.ac.uk?
  796. MattJ Got my Example Degree and everything
  797. MattJ No, it was online
  798. Tobias MattJ, in what?
  799. dwd MattJ, BEx?
  800. MattJ Shut down shortly after
  801. MattJ Tobias, I can't remember
  802. dwd MattJ, Is Ian coming to FOSDEM, by the way?
  803. MattJ No, not this year :(
  804. MattJ Me neither, for that matter
  805. dwd Oh.
  806. MattJ Not that I'm trying to keep him away from you or anything
  807. Tobias hehe
  808. dwd Don't tell me, you're going to a wedding?
  809. dwd Wait - Laura's going to your wedding?
  810. waqas Oh, so that's why he was inviting me
  811. bear who's getting married?
  812. Kev Matt and Ian, by the sound of it.
  813. MattJ Nobody I know!
  814. Tobias MattJ, you don't know your own father?
  815. bear congrats Matt and Ian!
  816. MattJ This conversation managed to get weird without the help of Fritzy
  817. dwd bear, I don't *think* a father/son marriage is actually legal in the UK.
  818. waqas dwd: I think you spoiled the surprise
  819. Kev MattJ: It did have Dave.
  820. dwd bows
  821. MattJ They were both trying to pair me off with people in Portland
  822. dwd MattJ, To be fair, you started it.
  823. MattJ No, Adam started it
  824. dwd MattJ, He did?
  825. waqas Adam wasn't the one who gave Dave an opening
  826. dwd MattJ, Oh, I see. Yes, I suppose he did. Him and Henrick.
  827. Kev It doesn't really matter who started it. It only matters that you're happy together.
  828. waqas +1
  829. dwd waqas, PLEASE rephrase that.
  830. Kev Either you and Adam or you and Ian. It's not quite clear to me what's going on at the moment.
  831. bear oh my - that was an unsettling mental image just now
  832. Kev That was the first?
  833. bear hardly
  834. bear just an interesting way to start the day
  835. MattJ Are members' JIDs public?
  836. MattJ I thought they were, but now I don't see them on the members page on the site
  837. MattJ So maybe I imagined it
  838. Kev They are.
  839. Kev They're all on their application pages.
  840. SouL has joined
  841. MattJ Ah, and this is where I saw the list: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2013-12-05/
  842. Zash The. List.
  843. SouL has left
  844. MattJ In that case, these are the ones on servers without TLS: axelsena (at) uww.edu bschumac (at) cisco.com zooldk (at) gmail.com dthompson (at) gmail.com emcho (at) jit.si jfrankel (at) coversant.net gnauck (at) gmail.com artur.hefczyc (at) gmail.com enuenschwander (at) coversant.net dave (at) coversant.net arcriley (at) gmail.com
  845. MattJ emcho's might do TLS, but there have been some interop issues with Openfire, so I need to double-check it
  846. ralphm at least some of them have other JIDs, too
  847. SouL has joined
  848. SouL has left
  849. SouL has joined
  850. Steffen Larsen has joined
  851. SouL has left
  852. Tobias has left
  853. SouL has joined
  854. stpeter MattJ: thanks, that's helpful
  855. SouL has left
  856. SouL has joined
  857. stpeter we can definitely ping the folks at coversant and jit.si
  858. stpeter I think Ben Schumacher has a non-Cisco JID
  859. stpeter hopefully gmail will get in line by May 19th :-)
  860. SouL has left
  861. Steffen Larsen I'll change my JID into my own domain. who shall I write to give my other JID?
  862. stpeter haven't chatted with axelsena in ages
  863. SouL has joined
  864. stpeter Steffen Larsen: Alex Gnauck, gnauck@ag-software.de
  865. SouL has left
  866. Steffen Larsen stpeter: ok! thanks peter
  867. stpeter sure thing!
  868. stpeter time for lunch here, bbiaw
  869. MattJ Hah, Alex is on the list with his gmail JID :)
  870. stpeter heh
  871. stpeter well, he has a jabber.org JID too, I know
  872. Steffen Larsen ha ha ha
  873. SouL has joined
  874. stpeter he is also gnauck@jabber.org
  875. stpeter that ag-software.de address was for email, I am not sure if he uses that for XMPP too
  876. stpeter bbiab
  877. stpeter has left
  878. bear I'm editing the summit wiki page to show that the venue will be cisco and to add the hotel link
  879. intosi bear: (Y)
  880. bear the dinner is saturday - right?
  881. intosi Right
  882. bear hmm, google is not giving me a link for that restaurant
  883. Lance has joined
  884. bear got it from a past wiki page
  885. bear ok, summit venue, hotel and dinner info updated
  886. FloRida has left
  887. apophys has joined
  888. Steffen Larsen has left
  889. Steffen Larsen has joined
  890. ralphm bear: thanks!
  891. ralphm how did we get to the restaurant last year?
  892. apophys has left
  893. Zash There was a bus
  894. emcho has left
  895. emcho has joined
  896. emcho has left
  897. emcho has joined
  898. emcho has left
  899. ralphm Right. I varies per year.
  900. ralphm So I suppose we have to arrange that again. Or is that part of what Florian does?
  901. intosi I'm not sure actually. It always looks like Florian handles that part, but who actually knows?
  902. intosi It always appears he just knows all the drivers and such. No wonder he was hired by Uber ;)
  903. tato has joined
  904. dwd I asked Florian about a bus, too.
  905. Lance has joined
  906. dwd MattJ, Are you suggesting we need to have all members on TLS-capable servers? I suppose that's probably the case given the Memberbot.
  907. fippo dwd: I wonder if the strint thing should explicitly mention that xmpp makes no attempt to hide metadata
  908. fippo i.e. from/to
  909. waqas We could have a vote on it, but the membership would answer 'yes' to both 'require TLS' and 'don't require TLS'
  910. dwd fippo, Probably, yes.
  911. dwd waqas, I vote yes.
  912. stpeter has joined
  913. waqas 'Should we rename XMPP to PPMX?', 'Do you want to stop being a member?', etc...
  914. dwd That's worrying. Google Plus now thinks my daily commute is to Tesco.
  915. waqas Is it right?
  916. dwd Frustratingly close to right.
  917. stpeter wanders back in
  918. Steffen Larsen I've dropped g+.. confusing, annoying and.. well could keep going.
  919. dwd No, not Google+, I didn't mean that at all. Google Now. That's what I meant to type.
  920. dwd waqas, BTW, I do like the notion of asking people if they want to resign as a question in the middle of the voting.
  921. waqas I vote for including that in the vote
  922. dwd Oh, we could get the members to vote on it.
  923. waqas How many do you think we'd lose?
  924. bear 90%
  925. dwd I don't think it'd be a loss if anyone resigned because they vote yes to everything.
  926. bear I would also love linking you being able to vote for someone based on wiki logs showing you at least visited the person's application
  927. waqas Does the XSF want a larger membership (membership, not community which may include non-members)?
  928. bear active trumps size IMO
  929. dwd waqas, Yes and no. I'd like to see a larger engaged membership.
  930. dwd waqas, So I'd like more people, but I'd like them to be active in the XSF.
  931. waqas Most of the membership isn't really engaged, it's more like an easy merit badge you get and then forget about until the next vote.
  932. dwd Some people have been known to forgoet about it even longer than that...
  933. stpeter nods
  934. fippo and some people were on the members list despite not voting for years :-)
  935. stpeter brb
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  938. dwd FWIW, I try to be fairly restrictive in who I vote for, but I suspect I'm nothing like restrictive enough. There's probably dozens of people I vote for who don't contribute anything at all to the XSF itself.
  939. waqas I think it's perfectly fine for anyone to be subscribed to public mailing lists, and the members ML is public
  940. waqas I'm fairly restrictive most of the time, but it's annoying knowing that a no from me wouldn't really change anything.
  941. stpeter has joined
  942. waqas The only time I remember someone not being voted in was Solarius in 2008, who didn't want to use his real name. Was he even in the vote?
  943. dwd Yes, he was.
  944. waqas Yes apparently: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2008-02-07/
  945. dwd (I know, because I looked into it very heavily when Florian put in his last application)
  946. ralphm I often wonder how much it really matters
  947. fippo waqas: vt100 from jabber.ccc.de wasn't voted in either
  948. waqas I personally don't think it matters. No member of the XSF has ever verified my identity FWIW.
  949. waqas http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2008-05-02/ - Mike Taylor not voted in, that's a surprise
  950. ralphm waqas: so you think
  951. MattJ waqas, I have
  952. waqas MattJ: I was careful not to let you touch my ID
  953. MattJ I saw your passport, and your photo
  954. dwd waqas, Oh, *this* converation again.
  955. ralphm waqas: were you awake all the time?
  956. MattJ He wasn't
  957. waqas MattJ wouldn't know if it was real or fake anyway
  958. dwd waqas, Still talking about your passport?
  959. waqas stays quiet
  960. intosi He didn't even notice you guys switched it, right?
  961. ralphm granted, MattJ can get lost in a city park
  962. intosi Oh wait, I wasn't supposed to know this.
  963. MattJ ralphm, I can't help it if the American idea of a "park" is about 30x the size of the kind I'm used to
  964. MattJ It was only 30cm on the map at the start
  965. dwd http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Kurt_Zeilenga_Application_2013 - heh.
  966. dwd Whereas Peter Waher has, "The main purpose for reapplying for membership is to be able to propose XMPP extensions." Nope.
  967. bear waqas - yea, I never figured out why so many folks voted no
  968. waqas This is a fairly widespread problem though, most applications have something like that as a reason
  969. Zash bear: Beard envy.
  970. Zash That's the only explanation.
  971. waqas +1
  972. bear I guess
  973. ralphm on the other hand florian had a horrible application (on purpose) but was voted in on merit
  974. bear I do know that i've forgotten to reapply a number of times and got dropped
  975. ralphm and that's fine
  976. fippo dwd: well, for years I was one of the few non-xsf xep authors
  977. dwd bear, As I recall, you got voted against because you used your real name, and nobody knew you as that, or something.
  978. Zash Haha
  979. intosi The Inverted Solarius Syndrome.
  980. waqas I would have voted for 'bear' :)
  981. dwd I recall Fritzy explaining to me who you were.
  982. ralphm I think that technically I should have been dropped for not voting trice at some point
  983. intosi ralphm: weren't you?
  984. ralphm no
  985. ralphm I was on the council and voted in that Q
  986. bear ahh - now that makes total sense
  987. ralphm bear: when are you legally changing that?
  988. bear :P
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