Wednesday, January 15, 2014
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[09:53:18] <Simon> What's the current thinking on new XEP's using montague/capulet.lit vs example.com/org ?
[09:53:37] <Simon> #finally getting the bc XEP into shape
[09:55:36] <Steffen Larsen> I still vote for the example.org. even though we have a love for hamlet et al.
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[09:55:49] <Steffen Larsen> It can be misleading
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[09:57:35] <Simon> Steffen - my leaning too. But there's history…
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[09:58:23] <fippo> simon: every author does what he/she wants ;)
[09:58:37] <Simon> fippo - that's an answer I can live with :)
[09:58:59] <Steffen Larsen> I know simon.. And even though I actually like the hamlet stuff and find it funny.. I still believe that common sense and example.org would be a lot better
[09:59:18] <fippo> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html#sections-usecases still recommends that
[09:59:19] <Kev> I don't see a problem with using Shakespeare examples, FWIW.
[09:59:53] <Kev> Not a practical problem, anyway.
[10:00:05] <Lloyd> Personally I like the shakespeare examples, it also means I sound more cultured when the subject comes up.
[10:00:14] <Simon> Tomorrow's topic: painting the other bike shed.
[10:00:26] <Steffen Larsen> Its a not big problem as such, but by specifying example.org people can see that the domain and stanza is an explicit example
[10:00:26] <Kev> Finding Shakespeare examples is the only fun bit about writing XEPs ;)
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[10:00:50] <Kev> Steffen Larsen: I don't think anyone's ever read a XEP and thought that only the three witches were able to do PEP, or whatever :)
[10:01:11] <Steffen Larsen> Kev: :-)
[10:02:02] <Lloyd> Kev :)
[10:02:15] <Lloyd> Their muc server is always down anyway
[10:02:35] <Steffen Larsen> Kev: try buying some of the domains (if not already taken) and see how many sta zas you get. ;-)
[10:02:39] <Steffen Larsen> stanzas
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[10:03:31] <Kev> I'd like to give people more credit than that.
[10:03:50] <Steffen Larsen> heh
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[10:04:18] <Simon> what's the cost for a new top-level domain these days? XSF buying .lit
[10:04:42] <Lloyd> We could use .lt ?
[10:04:49] <Lloyd> * .li
[10:04:56] <ralphm> Simon: I didn't know Buddycloud was doing so well these days
[10:05:10] <ralphm> I believe it was around €180000
[10:05:23] <ralphm> I'm not sure if that's the entry fee, though
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[10:05:52] <Simon> ok - scratch that idea. :)
[10:06:49] <ralphm> (initial price was $185000. Pretty close)
[10:06:58] <Steffen Larsen> cheap! buy!
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[10:30:54] <FloRida> yoyoyo peeps!
[10:31:06] <FloRida> I come with great news
[10:31:13] <FloRida> https://www.starwoodmeeting.com/StarGroupsWeb/res?id=1401152156&key=C2049
[10:31:27] <kevin> O_o
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[10:32:29] <Kev> Thanks Florian.
[10:32:38] <Kev> dwd / ralphm: Going to do the mail thing, then?
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[10:35:20] <Kev> FloRida: So this is good to go?
[10:35:47] <FloRida> yup
[10:35:52] <Kev> Thanks very much.
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[10:41:28] <dwd> Morning. Yes, I'll sort that out now.
[10:41:37] <dwd> Unless ralphm has beaten me to it.
[10:43:56] <ralphm> dwd: go for it
[10:44:06] <ralphm> I am working on the final touches for the beanbags
[10:44:21] <ralphm> http://mag.ik.nu/~ralphm/tmp/beanbags/
[10:44:54] <dwd> Writing it now.
[10:46:55] <ralphm> intosi suggested putting the Jabber one on a dark background
[10:47:09] <ralphm> (I picked the colour, though)
[10:47:21] <Kev> Booked :)
[10:48:11] <ralphm> comments welcome, until I send them off
[10:49:22] <Kev> I'm not sure about the realtime one (Do people immediately recognise that as being realtime?), but the other two look good.
[10:50:22] <ralphm> Kev: well, I'm not sure about recognition, either, but combined with further projected branding that should be quite fine
[10:50:39] <ralphm> and hey, it's a clock!
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[10:53:27] <intosi> Booked.
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[11:10:57] <winfried> Are the beanbags for sale? :-P
[11:12:04] <Lloyd> Actually I could do with decorating the home office
[11:13:46] <intosi> /if/ they are for sale, they will be for sale with conditions (such as: available for next FOSDEM ;-) ). I'm not saying they will be.
[11:14:03] <Kev> intosi: I don't see why such a condition should be needed.
[11:14:05] <dwd> The XSF *could* order and make more of them.
[11:14:05] <intosi> Although I'm sure a few can be made as a special order.
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[11:14:22] <ralphm> :-D
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[11:15:49] <intosi> It's up to the FOSDEM-handling board member to make a decision on selling them, of course.
[11:16:20] <ralphm> I am sure something can be arranged
[11:16:41] <ralphm> also, the XSF would be quite willing to have these sponsored by individuals or companies
[11:17:19] <ralphm> In any case, the designs are off to the printer
[11:17:26] <intosi> ralphm: thank you!
[11:17:53] <ralphm> I wonder how much 380 liters of EPS weighs
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[11:19:05] <intosi> The definition of EPS is not very strict ;)
[11:19:37] <Kev> But it is Turing-complete.
[11:19:53] <intosi> Could be anything between 16 and 640 kg/m3
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[11:21:11] <ralphm> 180x140cm. pretty big ass big
[11:21:23] <ralphm> and indeed Lloyd, I was thinking the same
[11:22:21] <ralphm> not sure how you'd get it back to .uk
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[11:23:08] <intosi> Ralphm: a fat boy of that size is ±7 kg.
[11:23:44] <intosi> FATBOY, not a fat boy. The latter would be significantly heavier.
[11:23:47] <Kev> ralphm: It'd float, right?
[11:24:27] <Ash> Depends on the lead content of all the pies I suppose.
[11:24:27] <dwd> Kev, Only if it's a sealed volume.
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[11:24:52] <Lloyd> Fatboys float, fat is less dense than water
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[11:24:54] <intosi> EPS usually floats.
[11:25:11] <ralphm> I wouldn't rely on this
[11:25:26] <Lloyd> ralphm: just buy covers, source innards in home country
[11:25:37] <intosi> Not for transportational purposes.
[11:26:29] <ralphm> Lloyd: totally possible. Their man product is flags
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[11:27:20] <Steffen Larsen> hmm I get no rooms available for the given date
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[11:30:14] <dwd> Flags?
[11:30:22] <dwd> We can start the summit with a procession?
[11:30:25] <Steffen Larsen> I am trying to bok from the 29'th to 2'feb.. no rooms avail?
[11:30:33] <Steffen Larsen> book
[11:30:33] <Lloyd> Who will book the marching band?
[11:30:41] <Steffen Larsen> ha ha
[11:31:04] <Lloyd> Steffan Larsen. maybe block booking doesn't cover the wednesday? Try from Thursday onwards
[11:31:14] <Lloyd> (I haven't booked BTW)
[11:31:18] <dwd> Lloyd, It *should* cover that.
[11:31:33] <dwd> [11:11:14] Florian Jensen: ALOFT BRUSSELS SCHUMAN
-          20/25 Lofts from 29/01 – 03/02/2014
-          Week rate (29+30/02): 165 euro per room & per night
-          Weekend rate (31/01+01+02/02): 75 euro per room & per night
-          Breakfast included served at the re;fuel
-          Supplement of 10 euro for a double room

[11:31:39] <dwd> That's what I have.
[11:31:46] <dwd> FloRida, Ping?
[11:32:08] <Steffen Larsen> yes it says that it covers it.. but it does not work
[11:32:47] <Steffen Larsen> but I have a flight Wednesday.. so I need a room
[11:33:25] <Kev> I managed 29th->2nd fine.
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[11:33:34] <Steffen Larsen> hmm
[11:33:37] <winfried> Fully booked already?
[11:33:38] <Kev> Maybe the rooms genuinely are all gone?
[11:33:43] <Steffen Larsen> tryind in various browsers
[11:33:45] <Steffen Larsen> ;-)
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[11:33:59] <dwd> Kev, We've a block of 25 locked for us, so I hope not.
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[11:34:41] <Lloyd> Martin, Ash, and myself get booked off that group due to new PA organising, so there should be at least 3 free
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[11:34:50] <Steffen Larsen> well changing the startdate.. still doesnt work
[11:36:40] <dwd> Huh. I get the same thing.
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[11:37:00] <Steffen Larsen> Cant make it work!
[11:37:14] <Steffen Larsen> so.. something is wrong from the hotel service I think.
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[11:48:11] <ralphm> or we will have quite the party
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[11:51:57] <fippo> dwd: realtime conf spoiled you
[11:52:15] <Simon> realtimeconf spoilt me for sure. That was fun!
[11:52:19] <Kev> I wonder why it would be failing now. It was certainly working earlier when the four Isode folks booked.
[11:52:33] <Steffen Larsen> well.. now it just fails no matter what
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[11:52:49] <Simon> I'm booking for three so if anyone wants to double up on the second room, let me know.
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[11:52:59] <fippo> https://twitter.com/disruptivedean/status/423390001309556736 -- *sigh*
[11:53:11] <fippo> simon: ping!
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[11:53:28] <Simon> fippo: ACK. Will do.
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[12:00:44] <ralphm> fippo: yes, people still sometimes suggest Skype to me. bwahaha
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[12:01:41] <ralphm> I did manage to get a reservation earlier
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[12:02:41] <ralphm> dwd: hmm, maybe the yetis could bring the rt flags
[12:03:31] <Lance> ralphm nope
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[12:04:17] <Lance> at least not with flagpoles
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[12:04:48] <FloRida> so far 6 rooms are booked
[12:05:19] <Lloyd> ralphm fippo: skype? surely just visit one of these and log in:
http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/xmpp-ftw/
http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/stanzaio/
http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/strophejingle/
http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/jslix-jingle/
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[12:05:44] <fippo> lloyd: WE know better of course
[12:08:24] <dwd> FloRida, It's rejecting me and Steffan for the whole period.
[12:08:37] <FloRida> that's odd
[12:08:41] <Steffen Larsen> Jup!
[12:08:43] <dwd> FloRida, We've got a 25-room block reservation, haven't we?
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[12:08:57] <Steffen Larsen> maybe its a 2.5 block ;-)
[12:09:12] *Lance has same reservation problems
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[12:14:17] <dwd> Lance, I have some reservations, but not a hotel one.
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[12:14:27] *dwd is quite proud of that joke.
[12:14:37] <Lance> dwd you read the user-auth proposal too?
[12:14:48] <dwd> The "two factor" one?
[12:14:53] <Lance> yeah
[12:14:59] <dwd> I spent ages trying to decide what the other factor was.
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[12:42:08] <ralphm> Lance: of course without the poles
[12:42:36] <ralphm> Lance: I wasn't actually suggesting it, I think
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[12:44:37] <ralphm> Lance: except maybe the one with the realtime logo on it
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[12:45:37] <Lance> ralphm i'll see what i can get from storage then
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[12:46:47] <ralphm> :-)
[12:47:51] <ralphm> Lance: by the way, you can tell Amy I found an svg of the logo after all
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[12:50:03] <ralphm> It's funny to see the hour markers have rounded corners on the t-shirts (only), I did the same for the bean bag
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[13:11:54] <FloRida> reservation problems: they're on it
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[13:16:15] <ralphm> FloRida: cool
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[13:20:12] <FloRida> screenshots guys?
[13:20:26] <FloRida> of the error
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[13:20:42] <dwd> Aloft Brussels Schuman - Thank you for your message. We regret to inform you that the selected room is not available on the required dates. You can contact Bram Visser, bram.visser@alofthotels.com who will be there to assist you.

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[13:21:28] <Steffen Larsen> got the same 100 times now
[13:21:43] <Steffen Larsen> I've written to the email but no answer yet
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[13:23:34] <dwd> I am attempting to use file transfer to send you a screenshot.
[13:23:47] <dwd> Optimistic, aren't I?
[13:24:05] <dwd> FloRida, ^^
[13:25:30] <FloRida> cl.ly
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[13:26:59] <dwd> FloRida, Doesn't seem to run on Linux.
[13:27:15] <FloRida> it's web based
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[13:27:56] <dwd> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/46064438/Screenshot%20from%202014-01-15%2013%3A20%3A47.png
[13:28:59] <FloRida> sent
[13:31:31] <FloRida> can you try again?
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[13:32:36] <dwd> Working
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[13:33:11] <ralphm> woot
[13:35:30] <intosi> \o/
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[13:37:25] <Simon> Anyone work out how to get two twin beds? Much as I love you all…
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[13:37:46] <dwd> No idea. Bed options are either King or No Pref.
[13:37:59] <dwd> No Poref, by the way, gets you King.
[13:38:33] <MattJ> Ouch, that happened to Waqas and I once. We ended up dismantling the bed somewhat
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[13:39:00] <MattJ> We were late to check out the next morning, having had to spend a long time putting it back so that no-one would notice
[13:39:03] <Simon> "do not cross the [imaginary] line"
[13:39:08] <MattJ> :)
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[13:43:00] <intosi> I'll bring duct tape just in case anyone needs it ;)
[13:43:18] <dwd> intosi, Just sharing a bed is enough, no need for that kind of thing.
[13:43:18] <intosi> To mark off their side of the bed...
[13:43:25] <dwd> intosi, Oh, right. Yes.
[13:43:28] <Simon> yeah yeah...
[13:43:43] <intosi> Hmpf.
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[13:46:21] <FloRida> lol
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[13:47:35] <Simon> nice to see XEPs getting a security review on the [esteemed] cryptography mailing list http://lists.randombit.net/pipermail/cryptography/2014-January/006175.html
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[13:51:56] <Steffen Larsen> Super! got a room now
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[15:10:18] <ralphm> Turns out the beanbags are about 6kg
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[16:16:16] <ralphm> Getting some food, might be in slightly later
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[16:16:49] <Simon> I'll need to leave after 30mins.
[16:16:59] <Simon> (30 mins after the start)
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[16:17:22] <Kev> Council ran to 10 minutes today, it was a long one. So Board will have to make up for that :)
[16:17:44] <Simon> the board picking up after the council again. Sigh!
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[16:25:57] <intosi> 10 minutes, tsk.
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[16:28:36] <stpeter> howdy
[16:28:43] <intosi> G'day
[16:29:37] <Simon> hi
[16:30:37] *dwd waves
[16:31:38] <stpeter> wow, lots of folks here today
[16:31:50] <Laura> Hi!
[16:31:54] <stpeter> hi Laura!
[16:32:01] <dwd> stpeter, The XSF is now officially popular.
[16:32:07] <stpeter> heh
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[16:32:11] <Laura> Where all the cool kids are
[16:32:24] <stpeter> the cool factor comes and goes
[16:32:56] *ralphm waves
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[16:33:25] <MattJ> Time to start requiring TLS on s2s connections here? :)
[16:33:43] <stpeter> at least xmpp.org ought to be participate in the next test day
[16:33:50] <MattJ> Definitely
[16:33:56] <stpeter> I'm requiring it still on stpeter.im and I was able to join here
[16:34:25] <Lloyd> [surevine.com does too]
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[16:34:55] <Kev> I'd actually argue that we want xmpp.org to be as inclusive as possible, and blocking S2S is unhelpful for that, especially when all traffic to/from xmpp.org is publicly logged so there's no security gain.
[16:34:58] <Zash> -cipher xmpp.org
[16:34:59] <Bunneh> Zash: Connection to xmpp.org uses cipher RC4-MD5
[16:35:04] <Kev> s/inclusive/accessible/
[16:35:06] <Zash> Mumble
[16:35:11] <Zash> *Mumble*
[16:35:22] <stpeter> so in any case does the Board have quorum?
[16:35:35] <ralphm> I think we're all here
[16:35:40] <stpeter> (Kev: I see your point)
[16:35:43] *bear waves
[16:36:03] *ralphm hands bear the gavel
[16:36:10] <stpeter> ok!
[16:36:19] <dwd> We have a full house.
[16:36:19] <bear> ralphm, Laura, Simon, me - quorom
[16:36:24] <bear> and dave
[16:36:30] *bear bangs the gavel
[16:36:33] <ralphm> :-D
[16:36:50] <bear> peter has the floor
[16:37:06] <stpeter> oh
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[16:37:32] <stpeter> well, the Board needs to decide about approving the two work team charters
[16:37:36] <stpeter> and there's FOSDEM/Summit
[16:37:40] <stpeter> anything else on the agenda today?
[16:37:55] <stpeter> we still need to write a post on the website about the ISOC sponsorship, too
[16:38:07] <Simon> Was there any comments on the security side (manifesto or otherwise)?
[16:38:34] <stpeter> Simon: I don't think we've necessarily collected data about the test day
[16:38:39] <bear> sorry - I just meant that peter's two agenda items are up
[16:39:02] <stpeter> bear: ok
[16:39:21] <bear> ack - server is offline - I will be lurking - Ralph can you run the meeting for a bit?
[16:39:29] <ralphm> sure
[16:39:31] <stpeter> Dave has provided feedback on the Editorial Team charter
[16:39:31] <Simon> I'd like to table a quick DNSSEC discussion that might involve us working with Council on documentation
[16:39:54] <ralphm> any other items?
[16:40:05] <stpeter> ralphm: I don't think so
[16:40:09] <ralphm> good.
[16:40:12] <dwd> stpeter, I'm fine with it, excepting "In order to improve the management of these processes" - I think with that struck it's good.
[16:40:25] <ralphm> 1) UPnP liason
[16:41:10] <stpeter> (in fact we have possible liaison relationships with ISO and IEC to figure out too, so we need to get this "template" figured out)
[16:41:17] <stpeter> s/possible/likely/
[16:41:40] <ralphm> any comments on the team charter?
[16:41:52] <Simon> Both seem good to me.
[16:42:01] *** winfried shows as "online" and his status message is "It is already a mess here, so chat with me!"
[16:42:12] <stpeter> my main concern is not the charter but our ability to recruit people (XSF members) to participate
[16:42:15] *** Simon shows as "online"
[16:42:19] <ralphm> My only question is about who'll be in them
[16:42:19] <stpeter> at least for the liaison teams
[16:42:28] <ralphm> and how many of them for each
[16:42:32] <stpeter> since we'll have 3 of them to start (UPnP, ISO, IEC)
[16:42:34] <dwd> It looks good to me. As I (think I) said, there's some worry surrounding IPR for the UPnP liason team, but we can figure that out as we go.
[16:42:45] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "this will take some time"
[16:43:01] <stpeter> dwd: UPnP, ISO, and IEC all have much more restrictive IPR rules than we do
[16:43:10] <stpeter> so we need to decide if we're comfortable with that
[16:43:17] <ralphm> I'd also prefer at least one council member to be part of the liason teams
[16:43:27] <stpeter> e.g., they lock down discussion and specs until they go public after the specs are baked
[16:43:33] <stpeter> ralphm: makes sense
[16:43:43] <dwd> stpeter, Mostly, I agree, but the XSF's assignment stuff invokes complexity in the other direction, too.
[16:43:50] <bear> the IPR issue, for me, isn't a huge worry as we would be advising in this role
[16:44:23] <stpeter> bear: that's how I see it, too
[16:44:32] <Kev> It's not the IPR per se, in terms of license of teh documents, but essentially being under NDA seems actively unhelpful. Not that it makes any difference what I think.
[16:44:36] <stpeter> dwd: in which direction?
[16:45:08] <dwd> stpeter, Anything coming our way.
[16:45:09] <bear> we would just have to be careful of the wording of the NDA
[16:45:17] <stpeter> Kev: I'm not an NDA fan, myself, so philosophically I agree, but if we want to help these other SDOs we need to play by their rules
[16:45:28] <ralphm> how do possible patent disclosures work for liasons? Are the people in teams there as individuals or as officers of the Foundation?
[16:45:46] <dwd> ralphm, Not "officers", but representatives, certainly.
[16:46:02] <stpeter> dwd: I see that as unlikely for now given my discussions with these folks so far
[16:46:23] <stpeter> ralphm: as representatives, yes
[16:47:09] <dwd> As far as NDA goes, I think we should gently push for XMPP related specs to be publicly discussed if at all possible, but these SDOs are generally more comfortable with full secrecy.
[16:47:10] <ralphm> does that still bind them with knowledge they may have outside their representing the Foundation, like, say, their employer?
[16:47:15] <dwd> Can't be as bad as the OMA, mind.
[16:47:18] *** Simon shows as "online"
[16:47:24] <dwd> ralphm, Probably.
[16:47:24] <stpeter> dwd: right, and I don't see us changing ISO policies :-)
[16:47:48] <dwd> stpeter, Are ISO that much bigger than us, then?
[16:48:11] *dwd waits to see if stpeter will take him seriously.
[16:48:25] <Simon> They have more than a PO box in Colorado - offices in Switzerland :)
[16:48:36] <Tobias> bigger in terms of us angle brackets usage?
[16:48:37] <ralphm> ISO has 163 members, according to wikipedia
[16:48:42] <dwd> Simon, TO be fair, we don't actually have a PO Box yet... :-)
[16:48:43] *stpeter has been to the ISO offices...
[16:48:55] <ralphm> dwd: correction, anymore
[16:48:58] <stpeter> ralphm: I am not sure about that "binding" question
[16:49:23] <stpeter> IMHO we have an opportunity to help these groups, and we should take advantage of that
[16:49:30] <ralphm> agreed
[16:49:36] <dwd> Agreed.
[16:50:01] <stpeter> they're inviting us into their house to help, and we ought to respect their house rules :-)
[16:50:13] <ralphm> but I'm sure companies might want to know if their employees, because they become part of such a team, will be required to relinguish information
[16:50:25] <dwd> And once we're invited in, we can always return and drink their blood.
[16:50:29] <dwd> Or was that vampires?
[16:50:33] <stpeter> ralphm: right, that's a good question
[16:50:34] <ralphm> so at least we should know how that works
[16:51:04] <bear> IMO we should for the teams, with Council support - and then find out what it is like once "on the inside"
[16:51:06] <stpeter> ralphm: I can find out about that from the various SDOs
[16:51:14] <bear> we can always stop if IPR or NDA gets onorous
[16:51:20] <stpeter> bear: nod
[16:51:26] *** fsteinel has joined the room
[16:51:37] <Kev> bear: The problem with that is that we're in a position where we (outside the team) can't know how onerous it is :)
[16:51:40] <ralphm> bear: if that's an option, I'm all for it
[16:51:57] <Kev> This all seems messy and underisable, but we should help these folks so we probably have to live with it.
[16:52:01] <bear> the team can report to the board if something is fishy
[16:52:06] <stpeter> Kev: right, that's how I see it
[16:52:18] <stpeter> I mean, the way that these groups work is quite foreign to us
[16:52:22] *** Simon shows as "online"
[16:52:32] *** Kev has left the room
[16:52:35] <bear> it's how i've worked in the past as a consultant
[16:52:36] <stpeter> company-based membership or even country-based membership
[16:52:44] *** Kev has joined the room
[16:52:44] *** Kev shows as "online"
[16:52:51] <Kev> bear: Yes. But what essentially happens then is that the work team get to tear down the liason unilaterally, as they can't tell Board what's fishy :)
[16:53:04] <stpeter> Kev: no, I disagree
[16:53:14] <dwd> Kev, I didn't *think* that the terms of liason would ever be secret.
[16:53:37] <Kev> Ahhar, excellent. I'd misunderstood. If details can be freely shared within the XSF there seems limited issue.
[16:53:40] <stpeter> Kev: they can't reveal the technical information, but if they think the liaison relationship isn't working or they have process / legal concerns, I think that's definitely open for discussion with the board
[16:53:52] *** Kev has left the room
[16:53:52] <stpeter> or with the membership
[16:53:55] <ralphm> right
[16:53:57] <bear> right
[16:54:01] <dwd> The only dangerous possibility I see is someone deciding to wedge a non-RF patent into the specs.
[16:54:03] *** Kev has joined the room
[16:54:04] *** Kev shows as "online"
[16:54:12] <stpeter> dwd: into our specs or their specs?
[16:54:20] <bear> but any action to *our* specs would have to follow our process
[16:54:20] *stpeter notes that Simon needs to leave soon
[16:54:25] <stpeter> bear: yes
[16:54:27] <dwd> stpeter, Well, I'm thinking into XMPP-related their-specs.
[16:54:40] <ralphm> ok
[16:54:57] <ralphm> so we agree on this charter for UPnP?
[16:55:01] <dwd> Yes.
[16:55:04] <bear> I don't see any major blockers to moving forward with this
[16:55:05] <ralphm> +1
[16:55:08] <bear> +1
[16:55:09] <Simon> +1
[16:55:11] <dwd> Well, I'm voting yes anyway.
[16:55:46] <ralphm> While we await Laura's vote
[16:55:49] <ralphm> let's move on to
[16:55:56] <ralphm> 2) Editor Team Charter
[16:56:00] <ralphm> +1
[16:56:06] <dwd> +1
[16:56:09] <bear> +1 for editor team charter
[16:56:12] <dwd> (With removal of clause as discussed)
[16:56:17] <stpeter> dwd: noted
[16:56:22] <Laura> +1 (as much as I understand)
[16:56:24] <bear> (as amended, yes sorry)
[16:56:34] <ralphm> Laura: on 1) or 2) or both?
[16:56:36] <Simon> +1
[16:56:40] *stpeter thinks that we might want to have these charters under source control, as we do for XEPs and other official things
[16:56:54] <intosi> stpeter: good idea
[16:56:56] <ralphm> Simon, how much time do you have still?
[16:57:02] <Simon> I have 5 mins
[16:57:05] <ralphm> ok
[16:57:24] *** Simon shows as "online"
[16:57:32] <Simon> Well I'll jump in quickly.
[16:57:38] <stpeter> thanks, Simon!
[16:57:48] <ralphm> In that case I want to quickly have your confirmations on refunding bean bags and hiring a cargo van for FOSDEM
[16:57:49] <ralphm> 3 ^
[16:58:19] <Simon> So we have a bit of an issue: with DNSSEC potentially solving lots of problems for the XMPP community to do witih security but a) no modules in servers that fully support it and b) no doucemntation
[16:58:19] <dwd> I'm in favour of both.
[16:58:23] <Laura> Beanbags - my contacts have been unable to help (getting them Brussels is the problem)
[16:58:26] *** fsteinel shows as "online"
[16:58:33] <Laura> Has someone found a good supplier?
[16:58:41] <dwd> Laura, Ralph has.
[16:58:46] <Simon> so I asked Shuman to write up a page on securing DNS as a first step: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Securing_DNS
[16:58:55] <ralphm> Laura: I have actually already ordered them
[16:59:00] <Laura> Oh wow!
[16:59:10] <Laura> 1 step behind...
[16:59:12] <ralphm> they will be 180x140 cm
[16:59:12] <bear> +1 to beanbags and +1 for van
[16:59:19] <ralphm> three different ones
[16:59:26] <Simon> but we need to find a way to, especially after the ISOC grant, to have more traction on getting this to work on the XMPP server level.
[16:59:29] <ralphm> http://mag.ik.nu/~ralphm/tmp/beanbags/
[16:59:32] <ralphm> designs ^
[17:00:05] <Simon> So my question is: how do we turn http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Securing_DNS into real code and implemented security on running servers?
[17:00:16] <stpeter> Simon: BTW, we can apply for another grant specifically about DNSSEC — the existing one was just to recognize us for being good people doing good work
[17:00:35] <Simon> Perhaps GSOC could help us with this too
[17:00:45] <bear> we should probably get the xmpp.net folks looking at it and then get some tools in place so that the membership can start pressuring their server vendors
[17:00:58] <Simon> They already check it.
[17:01:03] <dwd> Simon, We can either:
a) Offer Actual Cash™ to those implementing it.
b) Make it known we're going to call attention to implementation supporting DNSSEC.
[17:01:03] *** Lloyd has left the room
[17:01:10] <ralphm> Simon: while we discuss your point as well, could you vote on the FOSDEM thingies as well, before you leave?
[17:01:19] <Simon> but there is no good doc on how to set it up and even Prosody's DNSSEC modules don't do everything.
[17:01:24] <Simon> "even prosody" :)
[17:01:47] <Simon> Perhaps I'll take this to the mailing list(s).
[17:02:21] <ralphm> Simon: agreed
[17:02:28] *** Simon shows as "online"
[17:02:29] <Simon> Its not really a voting thing. Just something that concerns me about the [general lack of] security in XMPP-land.
[17:02:45] <stpeter> Simon: I totally agree, we need to improve things here to the extent we can (obviously there are limits to our influence over DNS stacks and such)
[17:02:56] <intosi> hhh
[17:02:59] <stpeter> Simon: hey, we're getting there slowly but surely
[17:03:03] <ralphm> Simon: well, we are slightly making people more aware of these things
[17:03:16] <bear> getting it on the members list and then adding it to the summit agenda = +1
[17:03:23] <dwd> Simon, If you want the XSF to do something, the only things we can positively offer as incentive are recognition or cash. Different groups are going to respond better to one or other.
[17:03:37] <ralphm> bear: should it be a members-only discussion?
[17:03:38] <Kev> dwd: I don't believe that's true.
[17:03:44] <ralphm> isn't standards a better venue?
[17:03:44] <Zash> Psst, Simon, I wrote a DANE module for prosody ;)
[17:03:45] <Simon> agreed. Just surprised that we're still in the era of a) trusing DNS and not checking certs for validity. <sad face>
[17:03:49] <Kev> dwd: I think there's also, at least, lowering the barrier to entry.
[17:03:57] <dwd> Kev, In what respect?
[17:04:00] <stpeter> ralphm: yes, standards@
[17:04:04] <ralphm> or maybe even jdev@
[17:04:15] <Kev> dwd: If you want people to do something, making it easier to do that thing can only help.
[17:04:27] <dwd> Kev, Yes, I agree, but how can the XSF make it easier?
[17:04:41] <Simon> I'll Jdev it in the morning.
[17:04:45] <ralphm> Simon: thanks
[17:04:45] <bear> ack, yes - not members - nice catch
[17:04:46] <Kev> How that might look is another question. Writing a guide to doing dnssec, with sample code or whatever, is one option.
[17:04:54] <Kev> From an XMPP PoV.
[17:04:59] <Simon> jumping off now. later guys.
[17:05:02] <ralphm> Simon: can you place your votes on FOSDEM thingies before leaving
[17:05:04] <Kev> (In some sensible language that everyone has access to, so presumably C)
[17:05:19] <Simon> What am I voting on?
[17:05:24] <dwd> Kev, That'll certainly help all those servers written in C. ;-)
[17:05:33] <fippo> kev: +1 :-)
[17:05:34] <ralphm> Simon: beanbags and hiring a cargo ba
[17:05:36] <ralphm> van
[17:05:40] <Laura> My vote +1
[17:05:47] <Kev> I'm presuming that all servers have access to C. Lots of Prosody's underlyings are, at least.
[17:06:13] <ralphm> Ok, I think we covered the DNS and security item on the agenda
[17:06:13] <Simon> Who are the beanbags for?
[17:06:23] <Kev> But it illustrates my point, regardless. Making things easy is another option.
[17:06:24] <ralphm> Simon: for people to lounge on
[17:06:37] <dwd> Simon, Us, at FOSDEM.
[17:07:11] <Simon> DWD - that's my issue. There's too much lounging at the realtime lounge and not enough interaction with potential folk.
[17:07:13] <stpeter> at the realtime lounge
[17:07:26] <Simon> it becomes a comfy hangout for us.
[17:07:31] *** Simon shows as "online"
[17:07:40] <ralphm> Simon: I welcome you to become reengaged in the discussion on what we'll be doing at FOSDEM
[17:07:41] <Simon> which I don't think is the best use of funds.
[17:08:00] <Simon> I'm more a fan of the tables and demos on tables
[17:08:23] <ralphm> Simon: there will be lots of that, too. We have been discussion quite a bit of stuff over the last month
[17:08:38] <Simon> Sorry - been offline.
[17:08:42] <Simon> but yeah
[17:09:23] <Simon> I've never through the reclining thing is a great way to sell XMPP - too intimiate to be doing with a FOSDEM stranger.
[17:09:40] <bear> nothing wrong with a -1 vote for the fosdem item
[17:09:48] <ralphm> bear: agreed
[17:09:53] <Simon> I'm on the -1 for spending on these thigns then :)
[17:10:14] <Simon> +1 for spending on posters etc that get people to the booth.
[17:10:16] <dwd> Simon, Are you -1 on the van as well?
[17:10:23] <Simon> but I'll follow up on the list too then.
[17:10:36] <Simon> Can't see the point tbh.
[17:10:40] <Simon> -1 on van
[17:10:52] <ralphm> Simon: we will not do posters (made of paper) as there's no way to properly hang them, but we'll try projecting stuff on the walls
[17:11:03] <dwd> Simon, OK, I look forward to you carrying stuff from Cisco, then. :-)
[17:11:10] <ralphm> Simon: can I ask you to drive all the stuff from storage to FOSDEM?
[17:11:14] <dwd> ralphm, I'm actually keen on posters, too.
[17:11:15] <Simon> Ralphm - I mean around the campus.
[17:11:21] <dwd> Simon, Right.
[17:11:34] <dwd> I've one design done, another in the works.
[17:11:35] <Laura> Posters are a great idea
[17:11:39] <ralphm> dwd: paper poster elsewhere is a good thing, but the place where the lounge will be at has horrible walls
[17:11:42] <Laura> Spread the word further than the stand
[17:11:46] <dwd> Laura, Right.
[17:11:54] *** fsteinel has left the room
[17:12:05] *** Simon has left the room
[17:13:01] <ralphm> Well, summarizing that bit then, I see 4 people with +1 on both the van and the beanbags, and one -1
[17:13:04] <ralphm> right?
[17:13:08] <bear> correct
[17:13:10] <Laura> Looks right to me
[17:13:13] <dwd> Looked that way to me
[17:13:15] <ralphm> ok
[17:13:23] <Kev> Didn't you already vote that Ralph could do whatever he wanted anyway, for FOSDEM logistics?
[17:13:23] <dwd> Are we voting on how the vote went?
[17:13:33] <dwd> Kev, Yes, we did.
[17:13:36] <Kev> As long as Stuff Got Done.
[17:13:47] <ralphm> Kev: I wanted to make sure in this particular case
[17:13:53] <ralphm> I am still doing whatever I want, of course
[17:13:59] *stpeter is sorry that he won't be in Brussels to help out
[17:14:12] <stpeter> BTW I do have confirmation of the meeting room on Thursday and Friday
[17:14:15] <intosi> Kev: I remember something like that.
[17:14:16] <ralphm> stpeter: no worries
[17:14:20] <stpeter> y'all need to figure out what you want to do for food
[17:14:26] <ralphm> stpeter: that
[17:14:28] <ralphm> stpeter and
[17:14:28] <Laura> Oooh Food
[17:14:35] <stpeter> there's a little café at the Cisco office there for coffee
[17:14:43] <Laura> Will be much needed
[17:14:48] <ralphm> stpeter: I would like to have some projectors. Do you think we can borrow those again?
[17:14:49] <Kev> How big is the pizza budget? :D
[17:14:50] <stpeter> I can arrange for lunches, or you guys can call out to pizza.be or whatever
[17:14:59] <dwd> Pizza works.
[17:15:05] <stpeter> ralphm: yes, I can arrange that with Jerome
[17:15:16] <stpeter> hildjj will be there in person so he can help with all that
[17:15:19] <Laura> Pizza good
[17:15:33] <bear> I will sponsor the Pizza budget for the Summit
[17:15:35] <ralphm> stpeter: right, I thought giving them a heads-up would be a good thing
[17:15:41] <ralphm> bear: thanks!
[17:15:43] <Laura> Thank you Bear!
[17:15:46] <bear> (well, as long as they take american cards)
[17:15:47] <stpeter> I'm thinking now that it would have been good for me to stay on one more week with Cisco to at least be able to arrange things at the last minute from inside
[17:16:06] <ralphm> bear: send me your logo to project along with other sponsors
[17:16:19] <stpeter> but I can have people help out, like linuxwolf
[17:16:21] <bear> hahaha
[17:16:47] <ralphm> stpeter: we'll probably be fine
[17:17:28] <stpeter> ralphm: I have contacts on the inside who can help here and there :-)
[17:17:31] <dwd> Speaking of meals, I've spoken with Florian, and he is booking the Auberge Brétonne (AKA, Florian's Babysitter), for Saturday. I'll be passing around a hat for sponsors as is traditional.
[17:17:35] <bear> getting the room reserved is like 99% of the pain for an event
[17:18:11] <ralphm> bear: and hotels :-D
[17:18:34] <bear> is that the place we ate at last time?
[17:18:36] <Laura> What about Thursday night - summit night?
[17:18:47] <ralphm> bear: yes, we go there tradionally for YEARS
[17:18:50] <dwd> bear, That's the traditional place.
[17:18:57] <Kev> Laura: People will probably just mingle organically.
[17:19:10] <Kev> There's a decent place 5mins walk from the hotel.
[17:19:13] <Laura> Ah man, am I going to miss the big get together dinner?
[17:19:14] <bear> I know I will be at the nearest Pub
[17:19:16] <Kev> And I think multiple, even.
[17:19:36] <dwd> Laura, The XSF Dinner is on Saturday partly because there's at least one sponsor for which the controller of the budget is only there on Saturday.
[17:19:51] <Laura> Booooo *grows up and stops acting like a child*
[17:19:58] *bear chuckles
[17:20:06] <ralphm> Laura: we'll make it up to you
[17:20:07] *intosi grins
[17:20:09] <dwd> Laura, Can't you extend your stay by a night?
[17:20:21] <Laura> I wish - at a wedding Saturday morning!
[17:20:37] <dwd> Laura, Unless it's yours, this is surely more important? ;-)
[17:20:45] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:20:47] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[17:20:47] <intosi> dwd: skipping them is frowned upon.
[17:20:55] <Laura> Ha ha, not mine or I might be panicking more!
[17:21:12] <Laura> Very old friends unfortunately or I would miss it!
[17:21:21] <ralphm> ok, ok, moving on
[17:21:26] <Laura> And I am involved, so absence would probably be noticed!
[17:21:30] <ralphm> anything else FOSDEM we need to discuss here?
[17:21:44] <stpeter> I think not
[17:21:49] <Laura> Not from me
[17:21:56] <ralphm> ok
[17:21:59] <bear> then we will need to have an amazing evening thurs or fri to help Laura feel less angst about missing Sat ;)
[17:22:37] <Laura> Hurrah! (and Thurs)
[17:22:40] <ralphm> 5) ISOC post
[17:23:02] <dwd> Laura, Any chance you could draft something about the ISoc gift?
[17:23:23] <Laura> Sure can!
[17:23:24] <dwd> Laura, Not wanting to push work onto you, but I suspect you'd craft the best words.
[17:23:28] <bear> if Laura can do some wordsmithing I will do the work to get it posted
[17:23:35] <Laura> I can wordsmith
[17:23:44] <Laura> Can someone send me the details and I will write it tomorrow?
[17:23:53] *** Lance shows as "away"
[17:24:08] <dwd> I think the details have already gone to the Board list, but I can dig them out again.
[17:24:14] <Laura> I will find them
[17:24:15] <ralphm> awesome
[17:24:20] <stpeter> Laura: thanks
[17:24:22] <ralphm> then, I think we are at
[17:24:24] <stpeter> I can help / review
[17:24:27] <ralphm> 6) AOB
[17:24:54] <Laura> Thanks
[17:25:11] <stpeter> Laura: I know the details / back story since I have a relationship with our friends at ISOC
[17:25:14] <ralphm> none, I assume
[17:25:16] <Laura> Great
[17:25:21] <ralphm> 7) Date of Next
[17:25:23] <ralphm> +1W
[17:25:27] <ralphm> 8) Thanks all!
[17:25:35] <dwd> Thanks ralphm.
[17:25:39] *ralphm bangs the gavel
[17:25:41] <bear> thanks ralph!
[17:25:43] <Laura> Bye all, thanks very much
[17:25:51] <stpeter> thanks Laura!!!
[17:25:56] *bear apologizes for his servers acting up during the meeting
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[17:26:08] <ralphm> wonder if a printer would be handy to have at FOSDEM
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[17:26:23] <bear> Laura, do you think we should be doing regular posts between now and FOSDEM advertising the Realtime Lounge?
[17:26:36] <ralphm> bear: no worries, I'm happy to chair meetings every now and then
[17:26:54] <stpeter> ralphm: doesn't the FOSDEM team have a printer?
[17:26:56] <Kev> bear: I think that if you have a plan of what will be demod at the stand, then blog posts about those demos in advance might help.
[17:27:06] <bear> kev - agreed
[17:27:08] <ralphm> stpeter: I don't want to burden them with that
[17:27:13] <dwd> Yeah, we should nail stuff down.
[17:27:19] <Kev> The FOSDEM team gets pretty busy, I think :)
[17:27:29] <stpeter> well sure
[17:27:36] <Kev> Something none of us can relate to :D
[17:27:42] <intosi> We used to bring a printer the first few years.
[17:27:44] <ralphm> I think I might have an old deskjet lying around
[17:27:46] <intosi> Came in handy from time to time.
[17:27:56] <stpeter> do we have a better plan for remote participation in the Summit?
[17:28:15] <ralphm> stpeter: now you become interested in this, huh?
[17:28:20] <MattJ> :P
[17:28:25] <stpeter> :P
[17:28:27] <dwd> stpeter, Oh, good point.
[17:28:41] <dwd> stpeter, DO you have decent contacts with the Meetecho guys?
[17:28:45] <stpeter> brb
[17:28:51] <stpeter> dwd: yes I do
[17:29:04] <dwd> stpeter, It might be good to get them over/involved/etc.
[17:29:05] <stpeter> but I don't know if we'd be able to run their stuff — we could invite them to the Summit
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[17:29:20] <dwd> stpeter, Right.
[17:29:33] <stpeter> ok I will reach out to them
[17:29:35] <dwd> stpeter, Can you drop them a line?
[17:29:37] <dwd> Thanks!
[17:29:38] <Kev> Jitsi videobridge? :)
[17:29:42] *dwd runs off for food.
[17:29:54] <stpeter> yes, will ping the meetecho guys now
[17:29:59] <MattJ> Ok, if meeting and FOSDEM stuff is over...
[17:30:05] <MattJ> Unencrypted s2s connections to {,muc.}xmpp.org: gmail.com, uww.edu, cisco.com, coversant.net, jit.si, imaginator.com, jabber.bluendo.com
[17:30:17] <ralphm> I can't even connect to cisco.com anymore
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[17:30:33] <ralphm> without enforcing encryption
[17:30:46] <ralphm> 'undefined-condition'
[17:30:52] <MattJ> Weird
[17:31:11] <ralphm> maybe certain ciphers or something
[17:31:38] <ralphm> but really, this should be in jdev@
[17:31:42] <stpeter> dwd: email sent to our Meetecho friends
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[17:34:35] <MattJ> Enforcing TLS on xmpp.org will affect peoples' ability to vote
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[17:34:52] <MattJ> I could work out which members are affected, and ping them
[17:35:41] <Kev> I think we should simply not do it.
[17:36:01] <MattJ> So unencrypted membership voting is ok? :)
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[17:36:13] <Kev> Yes.
[17:36:20] <Kev> If that's what people choose.
[17:36:51] <Kev> I don't care so much, as long as a long notice period is given for people to migrate to other accounts for XSF stuff.
[17:36:54] <bear> I agree with Kev - xmpp.org is special in this case
[17:36:59] <Kev> A couple of months or whatever.
[17:37:09] <Zash> MattJ
[17:37:22] <Zash> MattJ, mod_manifesto in reverse for the voting bot
[17:37:23] <bear> we should warn/remind our members that until ubiquitous security is in place that *they* need to make sure their s2s is secure
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[17:37:41] <MattJ> Shouldn't xmpp.org really be setting an example?
[17:37:56] <MattJ> and XSF members by extension
[17:37:56] <Zash> s/xmpp.org/XSF Members/
[17:38:04] <bear> not when that example excludes members who may need to be shown how to do it
[17:38:22] <stpeter> bear: well, we could always create @xmpp.org accounts for members
[17:38:25] <MattJ> I was going to say they only need to create an account on jabber.org... :)
[17:38:37] <Zash> Surely we can help those than need help.
[17:38:37] <bear> when moving from a status quo of oh-my-god-no-security to locked-down-tight we have to err on the side of open
[17:38:47] *waqas imagines a mod which informs remote JIDs when their s2s link is less than good
[17:38:55] <MattJ> waqas, already written
[17:38:56] <Kev> stpeter: I think we shouldn't do that, personally :)
[17:39:11] <waqas> MattJ: Which one? The last one I saw was for local users, not remote
[17:39:26] <MattJ> Yeah, I agree with not handing out xmpp.org JIDs, that has come up before and general consensus was against it
[17:39:44] <Kev> But if we can work out which members are affected (we have the memberbot roster for this), then we can announce a two-month-out date, and check each individually that they know they have to migrate servers.
[17:39:49] <bear> let's find out how many members are impacted
[17:40:02] <stpeter> dwd: BTW I am working on an I-D for the STRINT workshop before the London IETF meeting, see https://github.com/stpeter/xmpp-sec/blob/master/draft-saintandre-strint-workshop-xmpp.xml
[17:40:03] <bear> +1 to what Kev just suggested
[17:40:05] <Zash> s/migrate/migrate or fix/
[17:40:18] <stpeter> Kev: that seems reasonable
[17:40:21] <MattJ> > 17:33:30 MattJ> I could work out which members are affected, and ping them
[17:40:28] <Kev> Zash: I bet these people aren't running their own servers. I don't think any XSF member is going to be running a server without any TLS.
[17:40:30] <MattJ> Before you said you disagreed :)
[17:40:43] <MattJ> Kev, *cough*
[17:40:44] <stpeter> MattJ: you = ?
[17:40:45] <Kev> MattJ: I don't agree with participating in the encryption days.
[17:40:55] <Kev> MattJ: I don't oppose having a long-term plan to encrypt stuff, carefully.
[17:40:57] <MattJ> Kev, until recently several were, but ok... few now
[17:41:14] <Zash> ... dwd
[17:41:17] <MattJ> stpeter, sorry, that was addressed to Kev
[17:41:21] <bear> modify the MUC to report security status when joining ;)
[17:41:25] <MattJ> and I guess bear :)
[17:41:33] <MattJ> and the suggestion of pinging people before enablig it
[17:41:56] <bear> Matt - gather data and report it to members@
[17:42:00] <bear> let's get the conversation going
[17:42:00] <MattJ> Shall do
[17:42:54] <bear> thanks
[17:42:58] <Zash> \o/
[17:43:24] <stpeter> bear: yeah, Justin Karneges suggested a tag for that
[17:43:57] <bear> all insecure connections should be auto-assigned the role of "clueless" ?
[17:44:02] <Zash> Hah
[17:44:24] <MattJ> If only we still had groupchat-style join/part messages :)
[17:44:34] <stpeter> yeah I always liked those
[17:44:37] *bear turns his attention to a server that just doesn't want to work this morning
[17:44:39] <Kev> Shove it in their presence?
[17:44:41] <Tobias> MattJ, oh noes...the bload
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[17:44:48] <Kev> "My connection is insecure, please let me know"
[17:44:49] <bear> ugh - I *hate* part/join messages
[17:44:51] <stpeter> "/me disappears in a puff of smoke" and all that
[17:45:00] <Tobias> MattJ, oh noes...the bloat
[17:45:02] <waqas> Send them PMs? :)
[17:45:10] <bear> the only client that does it properly is Swift
[17:45:22] <Tobias> we could also put silly *hats* on them ^^
[17:45:27] <Tobias> if we only had a XEP for that
[17:45:30] <Kev> bear: You'd be surprised how much work that was, too. But thank you :)
[17:46:15] <bear> not surprised at all - I'm glad that you got it working so well
[17:46:42] <MattJ> Tobias, oh, overlay a silly hat on their avatar
[17:46:58] <Tobias> MattJ, yup..intercept avatar request and render that :)
[17:47:04] <Tobias> just wanted to suggest that ^^
[17:47:15] <Tobias> MattJ, just needs a imagemagick lua binding
[17:47:24] <ralphm> bear, Kev: how's that?
[17:48:44] <stpeter> a little unlocked / insecure icon might jolt some people into taking action of some kind, I agree
[17:49:12] *bear also
[17:49:43] <Kev> ralphm:

sezuan, bruce.stephens@isode.com and aman have left the room and Tobias and Steve Kille have left then returned to the room
[17:49:45] <Zash> -xep Hats
[17:49:47] <Bunneh> Zash: XEP-0317: Hats is Standards Track (Experimental, 2013-01-03) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0317.html
[17:49:59] <Zash> Tobias: Do it!
[17:50:12] <Kev> ralphm: Which gets updated as people join and leave, so that all presence in a block is compressed to a single message.
[17:50:23] <Tobias> Zash, clients implementing vcard based avatars = all, clients implementing Hats = 0?
[17:50:51] <stpeter> actually Hats needs to be deferred — where's that Editorial Team when you need them? ;-)
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[18:13:58] <dwd> Ooooh. Hats has example.edu - not an example domain as far as I can recall.
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[18:15:32] <MattJ> Yeah, I went to Example University
[18:15:50] <dwd> MattJ, But that was surely example.ac.uk?
[18:15:54] <MattJ> Got my Example Degree and everything
[18:16:02] <MattJ> No, it was online
[18:16:04] <Tobias> MattJ, in what?
[18:16:04] <dwd> MattJ, BEx?
[18:16:08] <MattJ> Shut down shortly after
[18:16:13] <MattJ> Tobias, I can't remember
[18:16:40] <dwd> MattJ, Is Ian coming to FOSDEM, by the way?
[18:17:12] <MattJ> No, not this year :(
[18:17:17] <MattJ> Me neither, for that matter
[18:17:23] <dwd> Oh.
[18:17:45] <MattJ> Not that I'm trying to keep him away from you or anything
[18:19:07] <Tobias> hehe
[18:19:36] <dwd> Don't tell me, you're going to a wedding?
[18:19:49] <dwd> Wait - Laura's going to your wedding?
[18:21:40] <waqas> Oh, so that's why he was inviting me
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[18:22:34] <bear> who's getting married?
[18:22:48] <Kev> Matt and Ian, by the sound of it.
[18:22:49] <MattJ> Nobody I know!
[18:23:00] <Tobias> MattJ, you don't know your own father?
[18:23:02] <bear> congrats Matt and Ian!
[18:23:22] <MattJ> This conversation managed to get weird without the help of Fritzy
[18:23:30] <dwd> bear, I don't *think* a father/son marriage is actually legal in the UK.
[18:23:31] <waqas> dwd: I think you spoiled the surprise
[18:23:43] <Kev> MattJ: It did have Dave.
[18:23:48] *dwd bows
[18:24:06] <MattJ> They were both trying to pair me off with people in Portland
[18:24:19] <dwd> MattJ, To be fair, you started it.
[18:24:27] <MattJ> No, Adam started it
[18:24:55] <dwd> MattJ, He did?
[18:25:14] <waqas> Adam wasn't the one who gave Dave an opening
[18:25:16] <dwd> MattJ, Oh, I see. Yes, I suppose he did. Him and Henrick.
[18:25:27] <Kev> It doesn't really matter who started it. It only matters that you're happy together.
[18:25:35] <waqas> +1
[18:25:36] <dwd> waqas, PLEASE rephrase that.
[18:25:38] <Kev> Either you and Adam or you and Ian. It's not quite clear to me what's going on at the moment.
[18:26:56] <bear> oh my - that was an unsettling mental image just now
[18:27:44] <Kev> That was the first?
[18:28:32] <bear> hardly
[18:28:56] <bear> just an interesting way to start the day
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[18:43:46] <MattJ> Are members' JIDs public?
[18:44:00] <MattJ> I thought they were, but now I don't see them on the members page on the site
[18:44:04] <MattJ> So maybe I imagined it
[18:44:45] <Kev> They are.
[18:44:49] <Kev> They're all on their application pages.
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[18:45:22] <MattJ> Ah, and this is where I saw the list: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2013-12-05/
[18:45:31] <Zash> The. List.
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[18:47:13] <MattJ> In that case, these are the ones on servers without TLS:

axelsena (at) uww.edu
bschumac (at) cisco.com
zooldk (at) gmail.com
dthompson (at) gmail.com
emcho (at) jit.si
jfrankel (at) coversant.net
gnauck (at) gmail.com
artur.hefczyc (at) gmail.com
enuenschwander (at) coversant.net
dave (at) coversant.net
arcriley (at) gmail.com
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[18:47:54] <MattJ> emcho's might do TLS, but there have been some interop issues with Openfire, so I need to double-check it
[18:47:56] <ralphm> at least some of them have other JIDs, too
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[18:56:21] <stpeter> MattJ: thanks, that's helpful
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[18:57:02] <stpeter> we can definitely ping the folks at coversant and jit.si
[18:57:12] <stpeter> I think Ben Schumacher has a non-Cisco JID
[18:57:28] <stpeter> hopefully gmail will get in line by May 19th :-)
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[18:57:33] <Steffen Larsen> I'll change my JID into my own domain. who shall I write to give my other JID?
[18:57:37] <stpeter> haven't chatted with axelsena in ages
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[18:57:58] <stpeter> Steffen Larsen: Alex Gnauck, gnauck@ag-software.de
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[18:58:14] <Steffen Larsen> stpeter: ok! thanks peter
[18:58:20] <stpeter> sure thing!
[18:58:26] <stpeter> time for lunch here, bbiaw
[18:58:28] <MattJ> Hah, Alex is on the list with his gmail JID :)
[18:58:33] <stpeter> heh
[18:58:42] <stpeter> well, he has a jabber.org JID too, I know
[18:58:44] <Steffen Larsen> ha ha ha
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[18:59:10] <stpeter> he is also gnauck@jabber.org
[18:59:35] <stpeter> that ag-software.de address was for email, I am not sure if he uses that for XMPP too
[18:59:56] <stpeter> bbiab
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[19:05:21] <bear> I'm editing the summit wiki page to show that the venue will be cisco and to add the hotel link
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[19:07:37] <intosi> bear: (Y)
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[19:16:10] <bear> the dinner is saturday - right?
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[19:16:29] <intosi> Right
[19:19:50] <bear> hmm, google is not giving me a link for that restaurant
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[19:30:38] <bear> got it from a past wiki page
[19:30:47] <bear> ok, summit venue, hotel and dinner info updated
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[19:56:08] <ralphm> bear: thanks!
[19:57:00] <ralphm> how did we get to the restaurant last year?
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[19:57:49] <Zash> There was a bus
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[19:58:10] <ralphm> Right. I varies per year.
[19:58:59] <ralphm> So I suppose we have to arrange that again. Or is that part of what Florian does?
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[20:01:00] <intosi> I'm not sure actually. It always looks like Florian handles that part, but who actually knows?
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[20:01:25] <intosi> It always appears he just knows all the drivers and such. No wonder he was hired by Uber ;)
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[20:08:16] <dwd> I asked Florian about a bus, too.
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[20:14:15] <dwd> MattJ, Are you suggesting we need to have all members on TLS-capable servers? I suppose that's probably the case given the Memberbot.
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[20:19:09] <fippo> dwd: I wonder if the strint thing should explicitly mention that xmpp makes no attempt to hide metadata
[20:19:11] <fippo> i.e. from/to
[20:19:55] <waqas> We could have a vote on it, but the membership would answer 'yes' to both 'require TLS' and 'don't require TLS'
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[20:23:08] <dwd> fippo, Probably, yes.
[20:23:19] <dwd> waqas, I vote yes.
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[20:24:38] <waqas> 'Should we rename XMPP to PPMX?', 'Do you want to stop being a member?', etc...
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[20:24:56] <dwd> That's worrying. Google Plus now thinks my daily commute is to Tesco.
[20:25:09] <waqas> Is it right?
[20:25:25] <dwd> Frustratingly close to right.
[20:25:33] *stpeter wanders back in
[20:25:44] <Steffen Larsen> I've dropped g+.. confusing, annoying and.. well could keep going.
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[20:28:58] <dwd> No, not Google+, I didn't mean that at all. Google Now. That's what I meant to type.
[20:29:35] <dwd> waqas, BTW, I do like the notion of asking people if they want to resign as a question in the middle of the voting.
[20:30:01] <waqas> I vote for including that in the vote
[20:30:14] <dwd> Oh, we could get the members to vote on it.
[20:30:18] <waqas> How many do you think we'd lose?
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[20:31:43] <bear> 90%
[20:32:01] <dwd> I don't think it'd be a loss if anyone resigned because they vote yes to everything.
[20:32:36] <bear> I would also love linking you being able to vote for someone based on wiki logs showing you at least visited the person's application
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[20:32:53] <waqas> Does the XSF want a larger membership (membership, not community which may include non-members)?
[20:33:20] <bear> active trumps size IMO
[20:33:27] <dwd> waqas, Yes and no. I'd like to see a larger engaged membership.
[20:33:46] <dwd> waqas, So I'd like more people, but I'd like them to be active in the XSF.
[20:34:19] <waqas> Most of the membership isn't really engaged, it's more like an easy merit badge you get and then forget about until the next vote.
[20:34:47] <dwd> Some people have been known to forgoet about it even longer than that...
[20:34:49] *stpeter nods
[20:35:52] <fippo> and some people were on the members list despite not voting for years :-)
[20:36:13] <stpeter> brb
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[20:37:25] <dwd> FWIW, I try to be fairly restrictive in who I vote for, but I suspect I'm nothing like restrictive enough. There's probably dozens of people I vote for who don't contribute anything at all to the XSF itself.
[20:37:45] <waqas> I think it's perfectly fine for anyone to be subscribed to public mailing lists, and the members ML is public
[20:38:48] <waqas> I'm fairly restrictive most of the time, but it's annoying knowing that a no from me wouldn't really change anything.
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[20:42:44] <waqas> The only time I remember someone not being voted in was Solarius in 2008, who didn't want to use his real name. Was he even in the vote?
[20:43:13] <dwd> Yes, he was.
[20:43:16] <waqas> Yes apparently: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2008-02-07/
[20:43:41] <dwd> (I know, because I looked into it very heavily when Florian put in his last application)
[20:43:50] <ralphm> I often wonder how much it really matters
[20:44:15] <fippo> waqas: vt100 from jabber.ccc.de wasn't voted in either
[20:44:42] <waqas> I personally don't think it matters. No member of the XSF has ever verified my identity FWIW.
[20:45:00] <waqas> http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2008-05-02/ - Mike Taylor not voted in, that's a surprise
[20:45:00] <ralphm> waqas: so you think
[20:45:03] <MattJ> waqas, I have
[20:45:18] <waqas> MattJ: I was careful not to let you touch my ID
[20:45:33] <MattJ> I saw your passport, and your photo
[20:45:35] <dwd> waqas, Oh, *this* converation again.
[20:45:42] <ralphm> waqas: were you awake all the time?
[20:45:47] <MattJ> He wasn't
[20:46:00] <waqas> MattJ wouldn't know if it was real or fake anyway
[20:46:10] <dwd> waqas, Still talking about your passport?
[20:46:22] *waqas stays quiet
[20:46:25] <intosi> He didn't even notice you guys switched it, right?
[20:46:30] <ralphm> granted, MattJ can get lost in a city park
[20:46:34] <intosi> Oh wait, I wasn't supposed to know this.
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[20:47:39] <MattJ> ralphm, I can't help it if the American idea of a "park" is about 30x the size of the kind I'm used to
[20:48:00] <MattJ> It was only 30cm on the map at the start
[20:48:15] <dwd> http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Kurt_Zeilenga_Application_2013 - heh.
[20:48:58] <dwd> Whereas Peter Waher has, "The main purpose for reapplying for membership is to be able to propose XMPP extensions." Nope.
[20:49:27] <bear> waqas - yea, I never figured out why so many folks voted no
[20:49:34] <waqas> This is a fairly widespread problem though, most applications have something like that as a reason
[20:49:39] <Zash> bear: Beard envy.
[20:49:44] <Zash> That's the only explanation.
[20:49:44] <waqas> +1
[20:49:58] <bear> I guess
[20:50:10] <ralphm> on the other hand florian had a horrible application (on purpose) but was voted in on merit
[20:50:11] <bear> I do know that i've forgotten to reapply a number of times and got dropped
[20:50:15] <ralphm> and that's fine
[20:50:30] <fippo> dwd: well, for years I was one of the few non-xsf xep authors
[20:50:42] <dwd> bear, As I recall, you got voted against because you used your real name, and nobody knew you as that, or something.
[20:51:00] <Zash> Haha
[20:51:05] <intosi> The Inverted Solarius Syndrome.
[20:51:08] <waqas> I would have voted for 'bear' :)
[20:51:32] <dwd> I recall Fritzy explaining to me who you were.
[20:51:35] <ralphm> I think that technically I should have been dropped for not voting trice at some point
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[20:51:46] <intosi> ralphm: weren't you?
[20:51:53] <ralphm> no
[20:52:14] <ralphm> I was on the council and voted in that Q
[20:52:17] <bear> ahh - now that makes total sense
[20:52:57] <ralphm> bear: when are you legally changing that?
[20:53:15] <bear> :P
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