Monday, January 27, 2014
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[11:30:52] <Kev> I don't think we captured start times on http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_15#Agenda
[11:31:34] <Kev> ISTR discussing it in here (I vaguely remember talk of 9:30 for a 10am start Thursday, and 9:30ish Friday. Does anyone want to take ownership of that?
[11:31:57] <ralphm> I said 10
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[11:32:50] <Kev> As an executive decision, or suggestion?
[11:32:56] <Kev> If the former, fancy updating the wiki? :)
[11:33:22] <dwd> If the latter, let's pick 0930 for 1000 as a decision and goto 10.
[11:33:49] *dwd decides arbitrarily to go for a BASIC idiom.
[11:35:02] <ralphm> Kev: suggestion. Feel free to set the time in the wiki, Mr. Chairman.
[11:35:19] <Simon> BASIC. Unsupported command. Try logo.
[11:36:13] <dwd> I have to admit I've largely forgotten Logo.
[11:37:21] <Kev> LEFT 180
[11:37:23] <Simon> FD 30, RT90
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[11:37:46] <dwd> I remember what one did with it.
[11:37:51] <dwd> I just forget the syntax.
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[11:38:15] <ralphm> I had a German-language module without a manual.
[11:38:25] <Simon> http://www.calormen.com/jslogo/
[11:38:41] <ralphm> Had to dive into hexdumps to discover command names
[11:39:19] <ralphm> Maybe I wasn't the target audience.
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[11:40:37] <dwd> So both LEFT and LT turn out to be legal. But Simon's comma is in error - no statement seperators.
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[11:56:01] <Kev> So, we have a general decision to start at 10 both days? (Aiming for folks to get there for 9:30 to settle down?)
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[11:56:53] <intosi> REPEAT 36 [ FD 10 LT 10 ]
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[11:57:46] <Simon> Sounds comfortable. 5 of us flying from Munich will be there at about 9am or so.
[11:59:15] <Kev> Do we know that this is OK with Cisco for us turning up?
[11:59:19] <Kev> What did folks arrange there?
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[12:19:31] <Simon> we'll camp at the airport and have breakfast or sumfing
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[12:20:40] <Kev> I meant that a 9:30 start, rather than you particularly.
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[12:37:56] <dwd> BTW, we've a new top dinner sponsor.
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[12:40:11] <Kev> What nice folks.
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[14:50:55] <dwd> And another sponsor confirmed! (Thanks ChatID!)
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[15:09:26] <Simon> the MUC runners?
[15:13:31] <Simon> nice - thanks guys.
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[15:16:08] <MattJ> Simon, actually ChatID is in the process of switching over to MUC internally :)
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[15:17:17] <Simon> Isn't that like IRC?
[15:18:00] <MattJ> Except with presence, strong identity, extensibility and... standards? :)
[15:18:49] <Simon> 10/10! (Just checking we have our marketing lines all practiced ready for FOSDEM.)
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[15:19:16] <fippo> *giggle*
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[15:19:27] <fippo> can i rant about nickchanges in MUC?
[15:19:34] <waqas> Go on
[15:20:21] <waqas> fippo: Was it going to be about 2 presences vs 1? :)
[15:20:30] <Simon> fippo: please tell us a storey about Psyc.
[15:20:44] <Simon> shouldn't MUC be multicast?
[15:20:51] <fippo> haha @simon. ok, MUC sucks completly :-)
[15:21:02] <fippo> simon: MUC is like IRC but lacks multicast!
[15:21:21] <fippo> waqas: it breaks jingle sessions for example.
[15:22:08] <waqas> fippo: Ha, yes
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[15:22:43] <waqas> So a clients maintaining a fixed unique id for occupants works around this?
[15:22:43] <Simon> I'm more curious about your name on http://about.psyc.eu/XMPP :)
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[15:23:07] <waqas> Oh, and +1 to Psyc stories
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[15:28:12] <fippo> simon: see document history ;-)
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[15:29:59] <Simon> Thursday evening. Drinks at XYZ bar and fippo explaining what the following means
[15:30:00] <Simon> Philipp Hancke (as author of 99% of psyceds net/jabber module): note that the following text is heavily biased, may contain inaccuracies and generally tries to persuade you that [[PSYC]] is so much better than XMPP.
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[15:33:55] <Simon> fippo also popping up in random Austrian huts: https://plus.google.com/photos/+SimonTennant/albums/5973593611259914241/5973593611994742770?pid=5973593611994742770&oid=101190913792731232738
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[16:21:48] <ralphm> fippo: I could see something /like/ user nicknames in MUC. In fact, I think it would not be odd to see if we can improve upon MUC in several areas while maintaining backwards compatibility.
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[16:27:36] *dwd also hates nickname changing in MUC.
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[16:28:00] <dwd> Means your server ends up keeping lots of directed presence markers around which are bogus.
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[16:40:40] <Kev> I like Swift's approach to nickname changing.
[16:40:54] <Kev> If you can't make up your mind, leave the MUC and rejoin it with the right nick.
[16:41:14] *Simon likes Swift's approach
[16:41:43] <waqas> I haven't seen Swift's approach yet
[16:42:01] <Kev> waqas: I just described it. No nick changing :)
[16:42:03] <fippo> ralphm: s/nickname/display name/
[16:42:11] <waqas> Ha
[16:42:35] <fippo> kev: i like it too. maybe you can explain emcho how cool it is :-)
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[17:36:23] <ralphm> "swift's approach" is what Google Talk expected, and caused presence fails
[17:36:56] <ralphm> In any case, I think that room nicks / display names should be orthogonal to presence
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[17:54:01] <dwd> ralphm, I agree, but that'd be a departure from the existing spec.
[17:54:18] <Zash> MUC2!
[17:55:05] <dwd> ralphm, FWIW, if we did split nicks and presence, then multiple occupancy becomes trivial.
[17:58:38] <fippo> and we can add multicast! :-p
[17:58:54] <MattJ> Uh-oh
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[17:59:14] <fippo> mattj: we just have to agree on a definition of what that means before ;-)
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[18:11:46] <Zash> MUC based on xep-33?
[18:13:29] <waqas> MUC based on pubsub, after we've made it turing complete. That way MUC doesn't need to be a separate piece of code, just something which runs on top of pubsub.
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[18:38:10] <MattJ> waqas, "after we've made it turing complete" - just ask ralphm about node as code :)
[18:38:27] <Zash> Eeuuuh?
[18:39:44] <waqas> We haven't standardized a language for node as code yet. You can't make a portable pubsub implementation without that.
[18:40:15] <waqas> XSLT with some storage feature built in? ^^
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[18:56:16] <ralphm> waqas: I'm not particularly inclined to redo on top of PubSub
[19:00:27] <ralphm> dwd: I think you can do a new join protocol, triggering an alternate mode. You can also do display name changes based on IQs, and block nick changes for legacy clients, like section 7.6
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[19:03:05] <waqas> ralphm: You aren't seeing the full picture. Once it's turning complete, we can write an equivalent of emscripten for it. Just think: TCP over pubsub, Linux over pubsub. Portable across all conforming XMPP servers. The microblogging folks can finally implement the whole thing by running statusnet over pubsub.
[19:03:55] <waqas> All XMPP problems will be solved forever
[19:05:54] <ralphm> waqas: what's your favorite food?
[19:06:57] <waqas> Depends. Ice cream is generally good all the time though.
[19:07:41] <ralphm> haha
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[19:33:17] *bear shakes fist at Isode and their amazingly great sponsor amount
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[19:45:42] <dwd> bear, You'll also note that ChatID's amazingly great amount is one less than &Yet's, at least in binary...
[19:46:29] <waqas> dwd: I was asking MattJ if someone paying 110+101+100+11+10+1 would get 6 mentions
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[19:47:30] <dwd> It is quite tempting to fill those, instead of actually looking for the amount we *need*...
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[19:58:22] <ralphm> that said, donating more than once is possible
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[20:30:10] <bear> yes, I did chuckle at the 111 amount
[20:30:25] <bear> I think I will donate at the 101 amount
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[20:31:05] <dwd> Yeah, it's tempting to fill that end in that way.
[20:31:21] <dwd> Anyone in for a Euro?
[20:31:56] <fippo> dwd: here!
[20:32:10] <fippo> unless you turn down requests from persons
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[20:33:22] <MattJ> Individuals have sponsored before iirc
[20:33:37] <MattJ> Put me down for €10 if you like :)
[20:33:55] <dwd> Yes, I've been pushing back individuals, though.
[20:34:07] <MattJ> Peoples' OCD might kick in to fill the gaps in the series
[20:35:16] <dwd> bear, You serious about the 101?
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[20:38:45] <bear> yes
[20:39:29] <dwd> I could use a €100, really.
[20:40:08] <bear> 101 or 100 - whichever is needed
[20:40:12] <dwd> But the new sponsors are listed...
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[20:40:25] <dwd> Isode : €1001
&Yet : €1000
ChatID : €111
Dave 'dwd' Cridland : €110
Mike 'Bear' Taylor : €101
Matthew Wild : €10
Philipp 'Fippo' Hancke : €1

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[20:41:00] <fippo> 11 is still open
[20:41:21] <dwd> Oh, good point.
[20:41:44] <waqas> I can do the 11...
[20:42:09] <dwd> waqas, You're not even coming.
[20:42:14] <waqas> I can also do the 1 spot :)
[20:42:32] <waqas> I'll join over hangout/webrtc room if we have one :)
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[20:43:35] <MattJ> For the dinner?
[20:43:36] <fippo> waqas: i plan to bring equipment and setup something on the jitsi bridge with proper xmpp :-)
[20:44:03] <waqas> Nice :)
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[20:49:47] <Simon> fippo - could you also do a demo of the Psyc XMPP bridge?
[20:50:01] <fippo> simon: the one i'm using right now?
[20:50:11] *Simon needs moar multicast.
[20:50:28] <MattJ> Simon, do you have any idea what you're saying? :)
[20:51:03] <Simon> MattJ: I've read the wiki history.
[20:51:15] <Simon> and I've stuck in the snow in the mountains and need amusement.
[20:51:29] <fippo> simon: of course I can re-add the smart presence thing and show you how xmpp could have been alot more efficient a decade ago
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[20:51:42] <fippo> well, almost :-p
[20:52:47] <dwd> fippo, PEP.
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[20:58:14] <dwd> Thanks, winfried!
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[21:00:03] <bear> that makes my OCD so happy
[21:00:25] <bear> one spot left *hint* *hint*
[21:01:03] <winfried> One?
[21:01:15] <winfried> what about 1010
[21:01:18] <winfried> 1011
[21:01:22] <winfried> 1100
[21:01:29] <winfried> ???
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[21:01:59] <dwd> Question is whether I could allow a non-binary one...
[21:02:33] <Simon> or other numbers…
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[21:02:36] <waqas> Well, we can allow conversion to decimal...
[21:02:39] <fippo> 10000 ... ;-)
[21:03:07] <waqas> 10000 = 16 in base 10...
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[21:03:26] <dwd> I should stress the amounts *are* decimal...
[21:03:33] <dwd> Or else we get no dinner.
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[21:15:07] <bear> oh, I think we all will put on the appropriate "filter" if anyone wants to donate any amount
[21:16:01] <fippo> i.e. making it a table with the appropriate base? ;-)
[21:16:08] <ralphm> sure, "any amount" is acceptable
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[21:21:17] <Tobias> emcho, so...to FOSDEM will Jitsi be able to call into jitsi video bridge and call to webrtc clients?
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[21:22:30] <fippo> tobias: not that I know of :-/
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[21:24:26] <Tobias> :/
[21:25:59] <Tobias> what's missing, it's standard Jingle, no?
[21:27:37] <fippo> no... media level interop weirdness between chrome vp8 and jitsi vp8.
[21:27:59] <emcho> Tobias: we have a prototype working but I am not sure if we'll be demoing that on FOSDEM
[21:28:09] <Tobias> ahh...ok
[21:28:35] <Tobias> fippo, interop? is there more than one vp8 implementation?
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[21:28:48] <emcho> Tobias: not really ... and it's not really only a matter of protocol
[21:28:48] <emcho> Tobias: not really ... and it's not only a matter of protocol
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[21:29:00] <fippo> tobias: chrome does some... interesting things at rtp level
[21:29:24] <Tobias> emcho, was that using Last Message Correction?
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[21:29:43] <emcho> nah ... some other bug
[21:29:46] <Tobias> fippo, ahh..ok. RTP level strangeness
[21:29:49] <Tobias> emcho, ahh..ok
[21:29:59] <emcho> the biggest hurdle is VP8
[21:30:05] <emcho> (which also comes with RED and FEC
[21:30:12] <emcho> that's what we are currently implementing
[21:30:24] <emcho> we already had VP8 but it wasn't complete and didn't work with chrome
[21:30:39] <emcho> we do have a prototype now ... but not sure if it makes sense demoing
[21:30:44] <emcho> not that stable
[21:30:55] <Tobias> ah..ok
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[21:31:33] <Tobias> i find it very interesting....slowly approaching a skype replacement that has more than feature equivalence
[21:33:02] <dwd> Tobias, We're getting very close to parity from Skype's perspective - one-on-one and small conf-calls - but we're also able to cover other ground too.
[21:33:34] <dwd> Tobias, I'm personally hoping we can tackle the GotoMeeting/Webex/etc kind of capability, too, within the year.
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[21:33:49] <Tobias> dwd, yup...especially with conferences in rooms with light control...kind of a pumped up skype conference similar to mumble but with better usability
[21:34:08] <fippo> dwd: we've had ~13 persons using th bridge last friday
[21:34:48] <dwd> fippo, Yeah, I think the bridge is a big part of this.
[21:35:28] <fippo> and the experience was very unlike https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYu_bGbZiiQ
[21:35:47] <dwd> Conf call IRL thing?
[21:35:52] <fippo> yeah.
[21:38:26] <Tobias> fippo, :)
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[22:02:08] <dwd> Lance, I like your push stuff.
[22:02:15] <Lance> thanks
[22:02:25] <dwd> Lance, And not entirely because you've managed to make "XEP-0198 Zombie" a term of art.
[22:03:03] <Kev> Not entirely. But almost.
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