XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2014-02-03


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  25. Kev Well, back to reality today.
  26. kevin congrats. %)
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  47. Ge0rG_ reality sucks.
  48. Zash Reality AND Monday!
  49. Ge0rG_ also, the fact that MUC<->server interop is broken in a horrible way, as soon as one of the involved parties hard-reboots
  50. Ge0rG_ a.k.a. I've got a small tail on my nickname and can't do anything about it.
  51. Zash Have Kev kick you?
  52. Kev Ge0rG_: You /can/ do something about it, in fact, but it's not very nice.
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  55. Ge0rG_ wow. I think I fixed it.
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  57. intosi Vegetation fault?
  58. Kev But unless your server is buggy, this shouldn't happen.
  59. Ge0rG intosi: it is a play on words in german
  60. intosi What are the German words involved?
  61. Ge0rG intosi: faulen is german for "to rot"
  62. Kev Is it possible you're running a buggy server (not bouncing groupchat with an error), or that xmpp.org's server is so old it doesn't kick people when getting such an error?
  63. intosi Ah, cunning :)
  64. fippo kev: s/buggy server/server that still doesn't implement 6120/ :-)
  65. Kev fippo: If you're not doing 6120 at this stage, you're either buggy or not trying to be an XMPP server. I treat non-compliances in M-Link as bugs (with varying priorities based on the issue, of course).
  66. Zash muc.xmpp.org should kick you for sending errors
  67. Ge0rG Kev: I connected via jabber.ccc.de by accident, and then jcd got rebooted
  68. Zash It says that it's running a version that has code for that
  69. Zash Ah, ejabberd.
  70. Kev Ge0rG: Is it possible that jabber.ccc.de is buggy?
  71. Ge0rG Kev: I have no idea. But I have an idea about staying "online" in chat rooms from recent prosody for days, whenever the MUC server is rebooted. which sucks as well and is a related issue.
  72. ralphm I guess maybe somebody should do a xmpp.net thing for protocol compliance
  73. Kev ralphm: Which is what Bear's said e wants to take up.
  74. Ge0rG ralphm: like... a compliance test suite?
  75. Kev I'm looking forward to this :)
  76. ralphm Kev: I missed part of the conversation, for a phone call, I think
  77. Kev Ah, right.
  78. intosi I for one would welcome our new compliance robot overlords.
  79. Simon ralphm: we've been trying to do that with the code on protocol.buddycloud.com (https://github.com/buddycloud/buddycloud-tests-framework)
  80. ralphm Kev: but I'd love to see scores there
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  82. Simon oh and good morning!
  83. Kev Bear is intending writing up compliance testing, off his own back, outside the XSF, with the intention of seeing how that goes. The XSF could bring it inhouse later, or not, but he really wants to do something here.
  84. Kev Morning Simon.
  85. ralphm So I don't have to trash a server implementation, but just point to implementations with better ones
  86. Ge0rG Kev: so, you were going to explain what I can do about async MUC connections
  87. Ge0rG or rather desync
  88. Kev Ge0rG: You mean zombies like the one that was here earlier?
  89. Kev Or something else?
  90. Ge0rG Kev: yes, that one. it stayed in here for how-many days? I finally got to it by joining the muc via jcd again
  91. Kev This issue is resolved as long as the servers in question are compliant.
  92. Kev I guess j.c.d is running some old server or something.
  93. Ge0rG are there privacy protection mechanisms involved possibly?
  94. fippo might be helful if some xmpp.org admin could check the logs (if any) for error stanzas from the old ge0rg
  95. Ge0rG I am still looking for a way to reliably detect when the MUC server was rebooted.
  96. Ge0rG fippo: I'm pretty sure the MUC would kick a user then. it happened before in this room
  97. Ge0rG ralphm: would you add my (personal) blog to the planet, if I provide an xmpp tag with rss?
  98. Ge0rG (it's the one with the mobile XMPP ranting)
  99. ralphm Ge0rG: yeah, sure
  100. Tobias Kev, they are running ejabberd, but what version, who knows...last time they responded to version requests it was some 2-3 year old ejabberd version
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  102. Ge0rG Tobias: just 2-3 years? I though it was ancient?
  103. Kev Ah, OK. Ejabberd did have this issue in the past, although I assume it's long since fixed.
  104. Tobias Ge0rG, don't remember exactly what version
  105. ralphm Ge0rG: why doesn't your blog have meta data with each posts? Things like author, timestamp.
  106. Ge0rG ralphm: because it's ikiwiki
  107. ralphm hm
  108. Ge0rG in the days when I did set it up, it was the only markdown based "blog" package generating static html. which really saved my ass when the android SSL downgrade post came around.
  109. Ge0rG I'd probably start again with octopress, except it is hard work to review everything and there are no inline comments in octo
  110. Tobias Ge0rG, according to http://web.jabber.ccc.de/?page_id=11 it's ejabberd 2.1.9, which was released late 2011 http://www.ejabberd.im/ejabberd-2.1.9
  111. ralphm Ge0rG: I simply cannot remember who belongs to which blog, so your name on it would help a lot
  112. Ge0rG Tobias: 2.1.9, yeah, that rings some bells
  113. Tobias but maybe the ejabberd clock ticks slower than the prosody clock :)
  114. Ge0rG ralphm: so I add a http://ikiwiki.info/ikiwiki/directive/meta/ field with author set?
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  116. Ge0rG ralphm: or some more fields for you?
  117. ralphm Ge0rG: author should be fine. Note that I was talking about the HTML rendering. I just noticed there's a date at the very bottom.
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  119. fippo ge0rg: current version of jabber.ccc is 2.1.13 -- so i'd expect this to be fixed
  120. Zash Assumptions and expectations :)
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  122. Ge0rG fippo: there obviously is an issue still.
  123. Ge0rG as a matter of fact, my alter ego stayed in this MUC for more than 24 hours after jcd rebooted.
  124. ralphm I am so glad there are server implementations out there that allow nick-sharing. My mcabber-in-screen session is always there for me.
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  126. Tobias screen not tmux? :)
  127. ralphm yes
  128. ralphm haven't really gotten around to trying tmux
  129. Tobias neither :) just heard it's what the cool kids use nowadays
  130. Ge0rG is still running a screen instance started before dist-upgrading debian. unfortunately, that broke remote detach :(
  131. Simon Is there much of a difference between the two (/me is a long-time screen user)?
  132. intosi Screen has been good for me for so many years, I have no compelling reason to invest in switching to something else.
  133. Simon intosi: +1… but I've the nagging feeling that I might be missing out on some killer feature that I never knew I needed… wealth… happiness etc.
  134. Zash dtach!
  135. ralphm I still use mutt, too.
  136. ralphm Took me a while to switch from elm.
  137. intosi I remember that switch ;)
  138. Simon ralphm: expired mutt last year. I still miss my excel to ascii art filter for attachments.
  139. ralphm this
  140. ralphm I had it render bozo-html-crap, too
  141. Ge0rG Simon: what mua are you on now?
  142. Simon Thunderbird and Gmail web.
  143. Kev I tried tmux for a while and without making a deliberate decision I still use screen.
  144. Kev I vaguely remember thinking tmux was better, but it didn't make me switch.
  145. intosi A tool needs to be significantly better than the one it is replacing, or else muscle memory will make you prefer the old one.
  146. ralphm I use Thunderbird and K-9, too
  147. Ge0rG I'd never be able to switch to a non-regex-based MUA. Even though I must admit that mutt has got its shortcomings
  148. Ge0rG Simon: http://community.igniterealtime.org/blogs/ignite/2014/02/02/stepping-down-as-lead
  149. MiGri tmux is nice if you like to have more than one window at a glance (horizontally or vertically splitted)
  150. Simon Georg: Flow seems very active and I'm looking forward to more (a)smack fixed.
  151. MiGri for mua: give cone a try. I really like it
  152. MiGri btw.: Hi Ge0rG
  153. Kev MiGri: What's the sell?
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  155. MiGri Kev: Sorry? What do you mean?
  156. Kev Why is it better than mutt/TB?
  157. MiGri ah. you can see more than one account at a glance, you have direkt gnupg support and it is very fast even with big imap-folders
  158. Simon feels a religious war starting.
  159. Tobias MiGri, does it do multi-threaded indexing of mailboxes for full-text search?
  160. Kev MiGri: Any form of labelling/tabbing, and how's the search?
  161. MiGri Tobias: I'm not sure, but I guess no. Kev: you can define labels. And it has a very detailed serch. I'm not saying its better than TB. Buit I still like reading mail on my cli. so TB is no option for me
  162. MiGri http://www.courier-mta.org/cone/cone00index.html
  163. MiGri and in IMHO mutt is complicated to set up with multiple acccounts
  164. Ge0rG does cone have screen integration to open up new windows?
  165. Zash Does it feed my cat?
  166. intosi Zash: now that would be a feature that would convince me ;)
  167. MiGri Ge0rG: nope Zash: I'm not sure yet ;)
  168. MiGri Simon: I'm not missionary, so no religious war from my side. I just wanted to give another idea to the discussion
  169. Kev I'm always looking for a new mail cliet.
  170. Kev +n
  171. Simon Kev: dwd is building it for you.
  172. Kev I'm not entirely sure that's true.
  173. Kev They're building a mail client, I'm not convinced they're building it for me :)
  174. ralphm Discussing MUAs in the XSF room. I like ti.
  175. ralphm it
  176. Kev ralphm: And it's directly applicable. We need to be able to read standards@ :)
  177. intosi We're protocol guys, surely we could just telnet into port 143 and speak IMAP ourselves?
  178. MiGri intosi: sure ;)
  179. intosi Or alternatively create an IMAP - XMPP bridge and make each mailbox a pubsub node, and each mail an item.
  180. MiGri intosi: bze are wo masochists?
  181. MiGri intosi: //err/ but are we masochists?
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  183. Kev Of course. Who hasn't run imap over telnet?
  184. Simon monday mornings and faulty ram in production servers. I need a beanbag and coffee.
  185. Kev If only you were still in the lounge.
  186. Simon and a server locked up half way through upgrading libssl. This is going to be interesting.
  187. ralphm unpacks one of the beanbags
  188. Simon thanks ralphm, but remains standing out of principle.
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  191. Ge0rG ralphm: does http://op-co.de/blog/tags/xmpp/index.rss look good to you?
  192. ralphm Simon: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=274070812748553&set=a.169709983184637.1073741826.100004369094497&type=1&theater
  193. Zash Nice
  194. ralphm Ge0rG: yeah
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  197. Ge0rG ralphm: thanks
  198. Kev ralphm: Very nice :)
  199. Simon ralphm: I could use that right now.
  200. Ge0rG feels like that as well
  201. ralphm Anyone here with contacts within NLNet?
  202. winfried Only rusty ones
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  225. ralphm Seeing a bunch of complaints on skype not working on the ipv6-only FOSDEM network. How well did our Jingle implementations perform?
  226. Simon Skype is a well known ipv6 laggard in all the tests that I've seen.
  227. fippo ralphm: jitsi does support ipv6 for sure
  228. fippo chromes webrtc doesn't yet (only in canary)
  229. ralphm Simon: so that is a nice angle
  230. ralphm fippo: right
  231. ralphm fippo: firefox does?
  232. fippo ralphm: don't know. haven't heard anyone asking
  233. ralphm fippo: This is false as of just now.
  234. fippo mh... do we have a "how to include the whole x509 cert chain" howto?
  235. Zash fippo: For normal certs?
  236. Zash fippo: Something like this https://prosody.im/doc/certificates#certificate_chains
  237. fippo zash: perfect, thanks
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  249. ralphm https://twitter.com/Bopuc/status/430338740456652800 anc some related but unlinked tweets by Bopuc
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  258. Simon Kev, - you mentioned, MAM and pub-sub storing a sync point/read up to this point. What was that called? Is it spec'd somewhere?
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  261. Ge0rG Simon: the archived id is used for that in MAM
  262. Kev Simon: The rough plan was to pull the id out of MAM into something of its own right, then to reference this from MAM. Then have 'read up to here' as a command to send to the server that it sends to your carbons-using clients, and is also used as the <reset/> in Push.
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  264. Kev And then we've solved the multiple-clients issues. Yay.
  265. Zash I think that was what XEP-333 is meant to be, but there's no server-implementable protocol described there
  266. Kev Yes, but I'm not sure 333 is the right solution. At least, it doesn't fit in with the other bits we talked about at the summit.
  267. Ge0rG goals taken from summit: a) XMPP Unified Messaging. b) World Domination
  268. Zash I'd like to implement some magic that uses 198, 184 and 85 for Something Smart™
  269. Ge0rG Zash: as soon as you know what you mean, write it down :)
  270. Zash Guessing what the other party has seen based on chat states and acks would be neat too.
  271. Zash Written down.
  272. Zash It's mentioned in 333
  273. Ge0rG is currently interacting in very unpleasant ways with java/android crypto
  274. Ge0rG j2se is storing the IV along the encrypted data when serializing a SealedObject. Android is not.
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  279. Simon Kev, Ge0rG, Zash: thanks for this (sorry was on a call and missed the thread). 333 looks very chat orientated. Is there a way it could be generalised to include pubsub messages?
  280. Simon or am I missing some magic?
  281. Kev Simon: I suggest you see what Lance (and possibly I) come up with, and see if that solves your needs.
  282. Kev Simon: I think it /should/.
  283. Kev (It isn't based on 333)
  284. Simon excellent.
  285. Simon Happy to help too if I can.
  286. Simon I feel like this summit was the one where we made most progress on some of these things by having conversations that don't work well on mailing lists.
  287. Simon (but do work well on busses to expensive dinners)
  288. Kev Quite. Imagine how productive it would have been if you had Peter there, instead of the idiot we had standing at the front :)
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  290. Simon The one who kept running out of sugar?
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  292. Kev Exunctly.
  293. winfried Did you have some time to recover, Kev?
  294. Kev I've already been to bed once this afternoon.
  295. winfried so still recovering? I felt a bit sorry for you...
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  297. Kev Thanks. I'm not quite sure why last week hit me so hard. Been a bit busy at work the last couple of weeks, but still.
  298. winfried yeah, lets state it this way: "some days are better then others"
  299. Ge0rG maybe it was due to excessive alcohol consumption as well
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  303. Kev Ge0rG: Unlikely.
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  305. Ge0rG is in a state of depletion today as well. but that might have been caused by incompetent coworkers...
  306. ralphm heh
  307. ralphm my coworkers are just waking up, so none of that yet
  308. winfried suspects his state of depletion is directly correlated to yesterdays alcohol consumption....
  309. Ge0rG had no alcoohl yesterday. only a large number of autobahn kilometers...
  310. Kev How long'd it take you to get back?
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  312. Ge0rG Kev: roundabout 6h, with two little stops
  313. Kev Getting on for as bad as mine :)
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  315. ralphm We did about 75 min. Then unloaded and returned the van.
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  338. fippo hello taskforce :-)
  339. Zash oh lawd
  340. fippo there is a certain irony in me talking about task forces reacting to anyone who has the impertinence to publicly critize xmpp
  341. Zash Needs moar positive markeitng!
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  351. ralphm fippo: when do I get my uniform?
  352. fippo ralphm: poke adam about http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyet-photos/10463753295/ :-)
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  364. stpeter I wonder if we need a chatroom for technical discussion on this server (and I need to regularly join operators@ too)
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  367. waqas stpeter: What's up with jabber.org? It doesn't seem like the machine is the problem seeing how the network is unreachable.
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  402. ralphm stpeter: moving jdev here?
  403. ralphm I don't see any problem with just discussing stuff in this room, reallt
  404. ralphm y
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  411. stpeter ralphm: sure, that works for me, I suppose :-)
  412. stpeter it's not really XSF business, is all
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  415. fippo well, the only reason i'm not in jdev is that m-link is picky (though compliant most likely) about id attributes on <presence/>
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  425. Kev I think the main reason you're not there is that the server is down.
  426. Tobias and why is it down?
  427. ralphm and also that jabber.org's still don't work (properly)
  428. ralphm logs
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  430. ralphm fippo: you can't have ids on presence?
  431. ralphm or picky how?
  432. fippo ralphm: I check them the same way I do with <iq/> id (fortunately the good way) and m-link disagress with me
  433. ralphm hm
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