Monday, February 03, 2014
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[08:09:13] <Kev> Well, back to reality today.
[08:11:44] <kevin> congrats. %)
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[09:31:55] <Ge0rG_> reality sucks.
[09:32:22] <Zash> Reality AND Monday!
[09:32:31] <Ge0rG_> also, the fact that MUC<->server interop is broken in a horrible way, as soon as one of the involved parties hard-reboots
[09:32:51] <Ge0rG_> a.k.a. I've got a small tail on my nickname and can't do anything about it.
[09:33:07] *** Ge0rG shows as "away" and his status message is "detached"
[09:33:13] <Zash> Have Kev kick you?
[09:33:32] <Kev> Ge0rG_: You /can/ do something about it, in fact, but it's not very nice.
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[09:33:40] <Ge0rG_> wow. I think I fixed it.
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[09:33:48] <intosi> Vegetation fault?
[09:33:53] <Kev> But unless your server is buggy, this shouldn't happen.
[09:33:58] <Ge0rG> intosi: it is a play on words in german
[09:34:10] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:34:24] <intosi> What are the German words involved?
[09:34:40] <Ge0rG> intosi: faulen is german for "to rot"
[09:34:41] <Kev> Is it possible you're running a buggy server (not bouncing groupchat with an error), or that xmpp.org's server is so old it doesn't kick people when getting such an error?
[09:35:00] <intosi> Ah, cunning :)
[09:35:03] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[09:38:16] *** Simon shows as "online"
[09:38:25] <fippo> kev: s/buggy server/server that still doesn't implement 6120/ :-)
[09:38:27] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is "here or there"
[09:39:11] *** Simon shows as "online"
[09:39:20] <Kev> fippo: If you're not doing 6120 at this stage, you're either buggy or not trying to be an XMPP server. I treat non-compliances in M-Link as bugs (with varying priorities based on the issue, of course).
[09:40:17] <Zash> muc.xmpp.org should kick you for sending errors
[09:40:33] <Ge0rG> Kev: I connected via jabber.ccc.de by accident, and then jcd got rebooted
[09:40:36] <Zash> It says that it's running a version that has code for that
[09:40:44] <Zash> Ah, ejabberd.
[09:40:46] <Kev> Ge0rG: Is it possible that jabber.ccc.de is buggy?
[09:41:40] <Ge0rG> Kev: I have no idea. But I have an idea about staying "online" in chat rooms from recent prosody for days, whenever the MUC server is rebooted. which sucks as well and is a related issue.
[09:41:52] <ralphm> I guess maybe somebody should do a xmpp.net thing for protocol compliance
[09:42:04] <Kev> ralphm: Which is what Bear's said e wants to take up.
[09:42:07] <Ge0rG> ralphm: like... a compliance test suite?
[09:42:10] <Kev> I'm looking forward to this :)
[09:42:28] *** Steffen Larsen shows as "online"
[09:42:44] <ralphm> Kev: I missed part of the conversation, for a phone call, I think
[09:42:55] <Kev> Ah, right.
[09:42:57] <intosi> I for one would welcome our new compliance robot overlords.
[09:42:59] <Simon> ralphm: we've been trying to do that with the code on protocol.buddycloud.com (https://github.com/buddycloud/buddycloud-tests-framework)
[09:42:59] <ralphm> Kev: but I'd love to see scores there
[09:43:02] *** Tobias has joined the room
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[09:43:09] <Simon> oh and good morning!
[09:43:29] <Kev> Bear is intending writing up compliance testing, off his own back, outside the XSF, with the intention of seeing how that goes. The XSF could bring it inhouse later, or not, but he really wants to do something here.
[09:43:32] <Kev> Morning Simon.
[09:43:33] <ralphm> So I don't have to trash a server implementation, but just point to implementations with better ones
[09:43:50] <Ge0rG> Kev: so, you were going to explain what I can do about async MUC connections
[09:43:58] <Ge0rG> or rather desync
[09:44:13] *** Simon shows as "online"
[09:44:14] <Kev> Ge0rG: You mean zombies like the one that was here earlier?
[09:44:17] <Kev> Or something else?
[09:44:54] <Ge0rG> Kev: yes, that one. it stayed in here for how-many days? I finally got to it by joining the muc via jcd again
[09:45:09] <Kev> This issue is resolved as long as the servers in question are compliant.
[09:45:30] <Kev> I guess j.c.d is running some old server or something.
[09:45:36] <Ge0rG> are there privacy protection mechanisms involved possibly?
[09:45:58] <fippo> might be helful if some xmpp.org admin could check the logs (if any) for error stanzas from the old ge0rg
[09:46:02] <Ge0rG> I am still looking for a way to reliably detect when the MUC server was rebooted.
[09:46:45] <Ge0rG> fippo: I'm pretty sure the MUC would kick a user then. it happened before in this room
[09:47:30] *** Steffen Larsen shows as "online"
[09:47:33] <Ge0rG> ralphm: would you add my (personal) blog to the planet, if I provide an xmpp tag with rss?
[09:47:48] <Ge0rG> (it's the one with the mobile XMPP ranting)
[09:47:59] <ralphm> Ge0rG: yeah, sure
[09:48:14] <Tobias> Kev, they are running ejabberd, but what version, who knows...last time they responded to version requests it was some 2-3 year old ejabberd version
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[09:48:58] <Ge0rG> Tobias: just 2-3 years? I though it was ancient?
[09:48:58] <Kev> Ah, OK. Ejabberd did have this issue in the past, although I assume it's long since fixed.
[09:49:15] *** Simon shows as "online"
[09:49:56] <Tobias> Ge0rG, don't remember exactly what version
[09:49:56] <ralphm> Ge0rG: why doesn't your blog have meta data with each posts? Things like author, timestamp.
[09:50:56] <Ge0rG> ralphm: because it's ikiwiki
[09:51:10] <ralphm> hm
[09:51:47] <Ge0rG> in the days when I did set it up, it was the only markdown based "blog" package generating static html. which really saved my ass when the android SSL downgrade post came around.
[09:52:25] <Ge0rG> I'd probably start again with octopress, except it is hard work to review everything and there are no inline comments in octo
[09:52:27] <Tobias> Ge0rG, according to http://web.jabber.ccc.de/?page_id=11 it's ejabberd 2.1.9, which was released late 2011 http://www.ejabberd.im/ejabberd-2.1.9
[09:52:33] *** Steffen Larsen shows as "online"
[09:52:54] <ralphm> Ge0rG: I simply cannot remember who belongs to which blog, so your name on it would help a lot
[09:53:01] <Ge0rG> Tobias: 2.1.9, yeah, that rings some bells
[09:53:36] <Tobias> but maybe the ejabberd clock ticks slower than the prosody clock :)
[09:54:17] *** Simon shows as "online"
[09:54:38] <Ge0rG> ralphm: so I add a http://ikiwiki.info/ikiwiki/directive/meta/ field with author set?
[09:54:48] *** abmar has left the room
[09:54:52] <Ge0rG> ralphm: or some more fields for you?
[09:55:31] <ralphm> Ge0rG: author should be fine. Note that I was talking about the HTML rendering. I just noticed there's a date at the very bottom.
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[09:57:32] <fippo> ge0rg: current version of jabber.ccc is 2.1.13 -- so i'd expect this to be fixed
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[09:58:11] <Zash> Assumptions and expectations :)
[09:58:11] *** abmar has joined the room
[09:58:12] <Ge0rG> fippo: there obviously is an issue still.
[09:58:45] <Ge0rG> as a matter of fact, my alter ego stayed in this MUC for more than 24 hours after jcd rebooted.
[09:59:19] *** Simon shows as "online"
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[10:03:29] <ralphm> I am so glad there are server implementations out there that allow nick-sharing. My mcabber-in-screen session is always there for me.
[10:03:44] *** Steffen Larsen has left the room
[10:04:21] *** Simon shows as "online"
[10:04:30] <Tobias> screen not tmux? :)
[10:04:36] <ralphm> yes
[10:06:14] <ralphm> haven't really gotten around to trying tmux
[10:06:46] *Tobias neither :) just heard it's what the cool kids use nowadays
[10:06:55] *Ge0rG is still running a screen instance started before dist-upgrading debian. unfortunately, that broke remote detach :(
[10:07:19] <Simon> Is there much of a difference between the two (/me is a long-time screen user)?
[10:08:25] <intosi> Screen has been good for me for so many years, I have no compelling reason to invest in switching to something else.
[10:09:23] *** Simon shows as "online"
[10:09:25] <Simon> intosi: +1… but I've the nagging feeling that I might be missing out on some killer feature that I never knew I needed… wealth… happiness etc.
[10:09:29] *** SouL shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[10:09:34] <Zash> dtach!
[10:09:42] <ralphm> I still use mutt, too.
[10:09:58] <ralphm> Took me a while to switch from elm.
[10:10:16] <intosi> I remember that switch ;)
[10:10:24] <Simon> ralphm: expired mutt last year. I still miss my excel to ascii art filter for attachments.
[10:10:33] <ralphm> this
[10:10:53] <ralphm> I had it render bozo-html-crap, too
[10:13:53] <Ge0rG> Simon: what mua are you on now?
[10:14:25] *** Simon shows as "online"
[10:14:25] <Simon> Thunderbird and Gmail web.
[10:16:43] <Kev> I tried tmux for a while and without making a deliberate decision I still use screen.
[10:16:56] <Kev> I vaguely remember thinking tmux was better, but it didn't make me switch.
[10:18:33] <intosi> A tool needs to be significantly better than the one it is replacing, or else muscle memory will make you prefer the old one.
[10:19:27] *** Simon shows as "online"
[10:20:00] <ralphm> I use Thunderbird and K-9, too
[10:24:24] <Ge0rG> I'd never be able to switch to a non-regex-based MUA. Even though I must admit that mutt has got its shortcomings
[10:24:29] *** Simon shows as "online"
[10:27:26] <Ge0rG> Simon: http://community.igniterealtime.org/blogs/ignite/2014/02/02/stepping-down-as-lead
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[10:29:15] <MiGri> tmux is nice if you like to have more than one window at a glance (horizontally or vertically splitted)
[10:29:24] <Simon> Georg: Flow seems very active and I'm looking forward to more (a)smack fixed.
[10:29:29] *** SouL shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[10:29:55] <MiGri> for mua: give cone a try. I really like it
[10:30:14] <MiGri> btw.: Hi Ge0rG
[10:31:48] <Kev> MiGri: What's the sell?
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[10:37:08] <MiGri> Kev: Sorry? What do you mean?
[10:37:18] <Kev> Why is it better than mutt/TB?
[10:38:20] <MiGri> ah. you can see more than one account at a glance, you have direkt gnupg support and it is very fast even with big imap-folders
[10:38:37] *Simon feels a religious war starting.
[10:39:13] <Tobias> MiGri, does it do multi-threaded indexing of mailboxes for full-text search?
[10:39:20] <Kev> MiGri: Any form of labelling/tabbing, and how's the search?
[10:39:34] *** Simon shows as "online"
[10:41:36] <MiGri> Tobias: I'm not sure, but I guess no.
Kev: you can define labels. And it has a very detailed serch.
I'm not saying its better than TB. Buit I still like reading mail on my cli. so TB is no option for me
[10:42:03] <MiGri> http://www.courier-mta.org/cone/cone00index.html
[10:43:00] <MiGri> and in IMHO mutt is complicated to set up with multiple acccounts
[10:43:16] <Ge0rG> does cone have screen integration to open up new windows?
[10:44:16] <Zash> Does it feed my cat?
[10:44:36] *** Simon shows as "online"
[10:44:47] <intosi> Zash: now that would be a feature that would convince me ;)
[10:45:21] <MiGri> Ge0rG: nope
Zash: I'm not sure yet ;)
[10:47:42] <MiGri> Simon: I'm not missionary, so no religious war from my side. I just wanted to give another idea to the discussion
[10:48:10] <Kev> I'm always looking for a new mail cliet.
[10:48:11] <Kev> +n
[10:48:24] <Simon> Kev: dwd is building it for you.
[10:48:36] <Kev> I'm not entirely sure that's true.
[10:48:50] <Kev> They're building a mail client, I'm not convinced they're building it for me :)
[10:48:59] *** jabberjocke shows as "online"
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[10:49:02] <ralphm> Discussing MUAs in the XSF room. I like ti.
[10:49:03] <ralphm> it
[10:49:38] *** Simon shows as "online"
[10:49:55] <Kev> ralphm: And it's directly applicable. We need to be able to read standards@ :)
[10:51:09] <intosi> We're protocol guys, surely we could just telnet into port 143 and speak IMAP ourselves?
[10:51:38] <MiGri> intosi: sure ;)
[10:51:54] <intosi> Or alternatively create an IMAP - XMPP bridge and make each mailbox a pubsub node, and each mail an item.
[10:51:55] <MiGri> intosi: bze are wo masochists?
[10:52:17] <MiGri> intosi: //err/ but are we masochists?
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[10:58:29] <Kev> Of course. Who hasn't run imap over telnet?
[10:58:40] <Simon> monday mornings and faulty ram in production servers. I need a beanbag and coffee.
[10:59:00] <Kev> If only you were still in the lounge.
[10:59:35] <Simon> and a server locked up half way through upgrading libssl. This is going to be interesting.
[10:59:42] *** Simon shows as "online"
[11:00:00] *ralphm unpacks one of the beanbags
[11:01:11] *Simon thanks ralphm, but remains standing out of principle.
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[11:04:25] *** Steffen Larsen shows as "online"
[11:04:25] *** Steffen Larsen shows as "online"
[11:04:44] *** Simon shows as "online"
[11:05:08] <Ge0rG> ralphm: does http://op-co.de/blog/tags/xmpp/index.rss look good to you?
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[11:07:49] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "lunch time, back later..."
[11:08:04] <ralphm> Simon: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=274070812748553&set=a.169709983184637.1073741826.100004369094497&type=1&theater
[11:09:32] <Zash> Nice
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[11:10:25] <ralphm> Ge0rG: yeah
[11:10:33] <ralphm> added
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[11:13:41] <Ge0rG> ralphm: thanks
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[11:15:20] <Kev> ralphm: Very nice :)
[11:15:37] <Simon> ralphm: I could use that right now.
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[11:16:05] *Ge0rG feels like that as well
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[11:22:47] <ralphm> Anyone here with contacts within NLNet?
[11:24:36] <winfried> Only rusty ones
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[14:00:56] <ralphm> Seeing a bunch of complaints on skype not working on the ipv6-only FOSDEM network. How well did our Jingle implementations perform?
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[14:03:57] <Simon> Skype is a well known ipv6 laggard in all the tests that I've seen.
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[14:12:18] <fippo> ralphm: jitsi does support ipv6 for sure
[14:12:24] <fippo> chromes webrtc doesn't yet (only in canary)
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[14:19:43] <ralphm> Simon: so that is a nice angle
[14:19:49] <ralphm> fippo: right
[14:20:18] <ralphm> fippo: firefox does?
[14:21:04] <fippo> ralphm: don't know. haven't heard anyone asking
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[14:27:13] <ralphm> fippo: This is false as of just now.
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[14:35:54] <fippo> mh... do we have a "how to include the whole x509 cert chain" howto?
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[14:39:03] <Zash> fippo: For normal certs?
[14:39:51] <Zash> fippo: Something like this https://prosody.im/doc/certificates#certificate_chains
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[14:42:54] <fippo> zash: perfect, thanks
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[15:30:47] <ralphm> https://twitter.com/Bopuc/status/430338740456652800 anc some related but unlinked tweets by Bopuc
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[15:58:38] <Simon> Kev, - you mentioned, MAM and pub-sub storing a sync point/read up to this point. What was that called? Is it spec'd somewhere?
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[16:12:12] <Ge0rG> Simon: the archived id is used for that in MAM
[16:13:08] <Kev> Simon: The rough plan was to pull the id out of MAM into something of its own right, then to reference this from MAM. Then have 'read up to here' as a command to send to the server that it sends to your carbons-using clients, and is also used as the <reset/> in Push.
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[16:13:36] <Kev> And then we've solved the multiple-clients issues. Yay.
[16:13:48] <Zash> I think that was what XEP-333 is meant to be, but there's no server-implementable protocol described there
[16:14:19] <Kev> Yes, but I'm not sure 333 is the right solution. At least, it doesn't fit in with the other bits we talked about at the summit.
[16:15:00] <Ge0rG> goals taken from summit: a) XMPP Unified Messaging. b) World Domination
[16:15:21] <Zash> I'd like to implement some magic that uses 198, 184 and 85 for Something Smart™
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[16:17:40] <Ge0rG> Zash: as soon as you know what you mean, write it down :)
[16:18:28] <Zash> Guessing what the other party has seen based on chat states and acks would be neat too.
[16:18:32] <Zash> Written down.
[16:18:37] <Zash> It's mentioned in 333
[16:20:38] *Ge0rG is currently interacting in very unpleasant ways with java/android crypto
[16:21:22] <Ge0rG> j2se is storing the IV along the encrypted data when serializing a SealedObject. Android is not.
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[16:44:53] <Simon> Kev, Ge0rG, Zash: thanks for this (sorry was on a call and missed the thread). 333 looks very chat orientated. Is there a way it could be generalised to include pubsub messages?
[16:45:13] <Simon> or am I missing some magic?
[16:45:43] <Kev> Simon: I suggest you see what Lance (and possibly I) come up with, and see if that solves your needs.
[16:45:49] <Kev> Simon: I think it /should/.
[16:45:54] <Kev> (It isn't based on 333)
[16:45:57] <Simon> excellent.
[16:46:11] <Simon> Happy to help too if I can.
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[16:46:47] <Simon> I feel like this summit was the one where we made most progress on some of these things by having conversations that don't work well on mailing lists.
[16:47:00] <Simon> (but do work well on busses to expensive dinners)
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[16:47:45] <Kev> Quite. Imagine how productive it would have been if you had Peter there, instead of the idiot we had standing at the front :)
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[16:48:09] <Simon> The one who kept running out of sugar?
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[16:48:21] <Kev> Exunctly.
[16:52:24] <winfried> Did you have some time to recover, Kev?
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[16:53:22] <Kev> I've already been to bed once this afternoon.
[16:53:50] <winfried> so still recovering? I felt a bit sorry for you...
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[16:55:18] <Kev> Thanks. I'm not quite sure why last week hit me so hard. Been a bit busy at work the last couple of weeks, but still.
[16:56:06] <winfried> yeah, lets state it this way: "some days are better then others"
[16:57:02] <Ge0rG> maybe it was due to excessive alcohol consumption as well
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[16:57:44] <Kev> Ge0rG: Unlikely.
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[17:00:22] *Ge0rG is in a state of depletion today as well. but that might have been caused by incompetent coworkers...
[17:01:54] <ralphm> heh
[17:02:20] <ralphm> my coworkers are just waking up, so none of that yet
[17:05:11] *winfried suspects his state of depletion is directly correlated to yesterdays alcohol consumption....
[17:05:43] *Ge0rG had no alcoohl yesterday. only a large number of autobahn kilometers...
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[17:09:19] <Kev> How long'd it take you to get back?
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[17:16:03] <Ge0rG> Kev: roundabout 6h, with two little stops
[17:16:33] <Kev> Getting on for as bad as mine :)
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[17:41:15] <ralphm> We did about 75 min. Then unloaded and returned the van.
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[19:57:07] <fippo> hello taskforce :-)
[19:57:14] <Zash> oh lawd
[19:58:03] <fippo> there is a certain irony in me talking about task forces reacting to anyone who has the impertinence to publicly critize xmpp
[19:58:37] <Zash> Needs moar positive markeitng!
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[20:55:59] <ralphm> fippo: when do I get my uniform?
[20:57:10] <fippo> ralphm: poke adam about http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyet-photos/10463753295/ :-)
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[21:06:33] <stpeter> I wonder if we need a chatroom for technical discussion on this server (and I need to regularly join operators@ too)
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[21:07:22] <waqas> stpeter: What's up with jabber.org? It doesn't seem like the machine is the problem seeing how the network is unreachable.
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[21:46:59] <ralphm> stpeter: moving jdev here?
[21:47:35] <ralphm> I don't see any problem with just discussing stuff in this room, reallt
[21:47:37] <ralphm> y
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[21:50:15] <stpeter> ralphm: sure, that works for me, I suppose :-)
[21:50:21] <stpeter> it's not really XSF business, is all
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[21:51:17] <fippo> well, the only reason i'm not in jdev is that m-link is picky (though compliant most likely) about id attributes on <presence/>
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[22:01:11] <Kev> I think the main reason you're not there is that the server is down.
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[22:05:33] <Tobias> and why is it down?
[22:11:32] <ralphm> and also that jabber.org's still don't work (properly)
[22:11:43] <ralphm> logs
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[22:13:08] <ralphm> fippo: you can't have ids on presence?
[22:13:32] <ralphm> or picky how?
[22:15:09] <fippo> ralphm: I check them the same way I do with <iq/> id (fortunately the good way) and m-link disagress with me
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[22:19:54] <ralphm> hm
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