Tuesday, February 04, 2014
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[08:25:54] <Ge0rG> mhm. looks like it all started here: http://mozilla.6506.n7.nabble.com/SCTP-and-WebRTC-FYI-td228999.html
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[08:27:37] <fippo> ge0rg: i think it was earlier... i'll check the notes from the kickoff
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[08:35:01] <Ge0rG> fippo: I'd be glad to get to the root of it. I'm looking for material supporting the not-quite-obvious decision of SCTP-over-DTLS
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[08:36:21] <fippo> http://rtc-web.alvestrand.com/ might have some hints... but I can't find anything obvious right now
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[08:39:57] <ralphm> Ge0rG: I might have missed earlier discussion on this, but what is the issue?
[08:40:57] *Ge0rG is on a flaky 2G connection right now. can't do extensive surfing :(
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[08:42:02] <ralphm> Ge0rG: I mean, why is SCTP-over-DTLS a thing that needs to be gotten to the root of? Why is it an unexpected choice?
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[08:49:27] <Ge0rG> ralphm: what I am looking for is extensive documentation of the possible alternatives, and why stacking a transport-layer protocol implemented at the app layer on top of another transport layer protocol has been chosen.
[08:49:30] <Ge0rG> also, my 2G connection lags. icmp_req=454 ttl=40 time=34930 ms
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[08:55:51] <Ge0rG> ralphm: I can understand the choice was made because of NAT, but I fail to believe it was the only possible choice.
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[09:00:10] <Ge0rG> you know, if all you ave is a srtp/dtls hammer, file transfer might look like a nail as well.
[09:02:33] <fippo> ge0rg: RTMFP was/is way more cool imo :-)
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[09:07:42] <Ge0rG> sometimes people make brave decisions and stack protocols like it is Babel all over again. And sometimes it even works out reasonably well.
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[09:09:41] <Ge0rG> so far, the guardianproject managed twice already to impress and to disgust me at the same time with their protocol stacking: one was serverless XMPP over avahii over OLSR on mobile, and the other was HTTP over OTR text messages over XMPP
[09:10:28] <Ge0rG> and I'd like to form a strong opinion on that SCTP-over-DTLS thing before opening my mouth and ranting it to the moon ;)
[09:12:00] <fippo> ge0rg: shout at rtcweb for using DTLS-SRTP instead of ZRTP :-)
[09:12:28] <Ge0rG> fippo: I have no strong opinion on RTP encryption mechanisms, and do not intend to form one soon
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[09:15:15] <fippo> the bad thing about all RTP encryption mechs is that they don't encrypt the header. which really makes me wonder about the https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2011/03/detecting_words.html kind of stuff :-/
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[09:22:52] <ralphm> fippo: what about http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6904?
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[09:24:10] <ralphm> (which of course doesn't cover all headers)
[09:24:15] <fippo> ralphm: the basic problem is that there is alot of infrastructure that wants to have access to the rtp headers for QoS.
[09:24:29] <ralphm> yeah, of course
[09:24:38] <ralphm> I suppose the same holds for http v.s. https
[09:25:16] <fippo> well, voip is timecritical. http isn't
[09:25:18] <ralphm> with Internet "service" providers mucking around with your javascript, styling and images if you use http
[09:26:13] <ralphm> Ge0rG: but just so you know, server-less XMPP over SCTP/DTLS/SRTP will be a thing.
[09:27:52] <Zash> But you still need servers to find them.
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[09:28:28] <Zash> ralphm, like what XTLS was supposed to be?
[09:29:41] <fippo> ralphm: i think the guys from the RWTH aachen have a prototype for exactly that ,-)
[09:30:16] <ralphm> Zash: Yeah, there have been proposals to negotiate peer-to-peer XML Streams over Jingle to do end-to-end encryption.
[09:30:19] <ralphm> that was using XTLS
[09:30:46] <ralphm> They never left the XEP inbox
[09:31:04] <ralphm> and then were IETF drafts
[09:31:17] <fippo> but we bumped the jingle namespace for XTLS at least!
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[09:31:22] <Kev> That was why they never left the inbox, wasn't it?
[09:31:30] <Kev> I forget, this was a while ago.
[09:31:30] <ralphm> Kev: indeed
[09:32:40] <ralphm> tools.ietf.org/html/draft-meyer-xmpp-e2e-encryption-02
[09:32:54] <ralphm> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-meyer-xmpp-e2e-encryption-02
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[09:34:01] <ralphm> in fact, that spec mentions dtls
[09:34:54] <fippo> i tried implementing XTLS, but found the openssl BIO api to be ... hard to use.
[09:34:59] <ralphm> I think it might be picked up again to match the new webrtc reality
[09:35:16] <ralphm> OpenSSL is the bane of everyones existance
[09:35:22] <ralphm> existence even
[09:35:36] <ralphm> unfortunately, there aren't many alternatives
[09:35:53] <Zash> fippo: Why would you use that directly?
[09:36:43] <fippo> i do think the approach in xep-0320 (mapping rfc 5763 without much more thought) is better than the one shown in draft-meyer
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[09:37:24] <fippo> zash: for doing xtls over ibb
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[09:38:06] <ralphm> fippo: can we forget about that use case?
[09:38:07] <Zash> fippo: Oh. Yeah. :/
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[09:38:38] <ralphm> I think we should maybe move beyond thinking that we want to fall back on ibb
[09:38:50] <Kev> ralphm: Why's that?
[09:39:11] <Kev> And are you saying that as a general policy, or just for some use cases?
[09:40:06] <fippo> https://code.google.com/p/webrtc/issues/detail?id=2796 -- ah, they're going to fix the wrong m-line then!
[09:40:11] <ralphm> Kev: for streaming, file transfer, IBB is an unholy approach. Most servers will not handle it well and large stanzas block streams, I believe.
[09:40:38] <Kev> I'm not sure why server shouldn't handle it well, it's just message switching, same as everything else.
[09:40:40] <Zash> You /could/ run multiple client connections ...
[09:40:40] <fippo> ralphm/zash: +1000!
[09:40:45] <Kev> And in reasonably small chunks.
[09:40:56] <fippo> kev: bad traffic properties. bad karma
[09:40:59] <Kev> There is clearly an upper limit on what is sensible.
[09:41:15] <ralphm> Kev: and I think the upper limit is probably around GSM encoded audio.
[09:41:15] <Kev> fippo: That's choosing not to handle it, rather than being unable to handle it.
[09:41:44] <Kev> I have no idea if fallback for media streams is viable. It feels like it's probably not.
[09:42:19] <ralphm> I'd rather have a single model here, having byte streams out of band.
[09:42:35] <ralphm> If you need alternative transports there, Jingle should be able to handle that.
[09:42:50] <ralphm> If only with co-located proxies
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[09:44:02] <Kev> I see your point. But equally, I'm not sure we should dismiss IBB out of hand.
[09:44:26] <ralphm> I'd love to see a counter argument besides "it might still be useful".
[09:44:42] <ralphm> We've been dragging on this forever and it always felt icky
[09:46:09] <Kev> Well, it's guaranteed interop.
[09:46:19] <Kev> Which seems slightly more than 'it might be useful'.
[09:46:38] <ralphm> I mean, base64 encoded RTP wrapped in XML on stanza-switched (neologism?) connection. Meh.
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[09:47:28] <fippo> i like it as last-resort for file transfer. but I'd actually prefer to see how well webrtc with all its nat traversal requires it. no decisions without data :-)
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[09:47:51] <ralphm> I /could/ kind of see how we might do inband if there's going to be a HTTP/2.0 binding for XMPP eventually.
[09:47:55] <ralphm> fippo: agreed
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[09:49:10] <ralphm> fippo: but I do like the idea of separation of concerns, while being sympathetic to Kev's argument.
[09:49:46] <ralphm> Kev: don't break jabber.org, please!
[09:49:51] <ralphm> :-P
[09:49:57] <Kev> The DoS did that already :(
[09:50:03] <Kev> Although it's back now.
[09:50:03] <intosi> That's not Kev breaking things.
[09:50:12] <ralphm> intosi: don't break things
[09:50:20] <intosi> I'm trying to unbreak it.
[09:50:23] <ralphm> hehe
[09:51:39] <ralphm> Meanwhile, I updated the topic for jdev to point here, as many discussions seem to happen here instead of over there
[09:52:07] <Kev> I don't have strong opinions on this.
[09:52:13] <Kev> Well, actually, I do.
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[09:52:44] <Kev> Which is that this room gets used for official purposes from time to time, so we shouldn't encourage entry from the types of people who will be a nuisance.
[09:52:45] <Tobias> you welcome anything that takes load of jabber.org?
[09:52:48] <Tobias> :)
[09:52:57] <Kev> But it's not clear to me that this fails that test.
[09:53:04] <Kev> Tobias: The jdev load really isn't a problem.
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[09:53:11] <Tobias> i know..was just joking
[09:53:31] <Kev> Although if it encourages the DoSsers to start attacking muc.xmpp.org instead, we will possibly have issues. Athena is...not as powerful.
[09:54:03] <ralphm> Kev: I'm trying to reflect reality, still forming my opinion. Arguably, since standards@xmpp.org is hosted by the XSF, maybe the discussions on MUC should too.
[09:54:03] <MattJ> I can handle it ;)
[09:54:16] <Tobias> yeah...it's Lua, not some C/C++ stuff
[09:54:37] <ralphm> Kev: are the DoSsers targetting jdev specifically?
[09:54:42] <Kev> No.
[09:54:54] <Tobias> all DoS packets are JIT compiled to a single NOP
[09:54:54] <Kev> Which is why I'm not jumping up and down and calling you a lunatic for pointing them here :)
[09:54:57] <ralphm> Do you think pointing to it in the topic gives them ideas?
[09:55:13] <Kev> Probably not. I think this is probably not going to lead to problems.
[09:55:25] <ralphm> awesome
[09:55:45] <Zash> Create a new room for general discussions?
[09:56:00] <ralphm> Zash: I don't see the point, to be honest
[09:57:28] <ralphm> But, one could argue we should reflect the mailinglists in rooms. I've seen a trend to reduce the number of lists, though.
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[09:58:12] <Kev> I don't see much value in moving jdev here. I don't see much harm in it.
[09:59:19] <ralphm> oh, heh, there is a board room. Single occupant is a non-board member.
[09:59:43] <Kev> And some old spam in the history.
[09:59:56] <ralphm> techreview@ points here
[09:59:59] <Tobias> also been wondering why board meeting happen here and not at board@
[10:00:04] <Zash> Destroy all rooms!
[10:00:12] <ralphm> Tobias: they are public
[10:00:18] <Kev> Tobias: There's no reason for them not to happen here :)
[10:00:23] <ralphm> Tobias: like we discuss mostly everything on the members list
[10:00:28] <Tobias> Kev, let's move council meetings here?
[10:00:54] <Kev> Council and Board sometimes overlap slightly, so that seems like a not great idea.
[10:01:03] <ralphm> Tobias: that crossed my mind, but what Kev says
[10:01:12] <Tobias> i just seem to remember they've been hold in the board@muc...but if that's wrong nvm
[10:01:29] <ralphm> Tobias: we won't any time soon, I think
[10:01:46] <ralphm> board@ should probably be a restricted room
[10:01:55] <ralphm> like the mailing list
[10:02:31] <intosi> A board-only back channel doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.
[10:02:45] <ralphm> except we would almost never use it
[10:03:03] <intosi> You wouldn't for board meetings, at least.
[10:03:03] <Kev> intosi: A /second/ Board-only back channel.
[10:03:10] <intosi> Kev: right
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[10:03:27] <ralphm> Kev: I'd merge them, of course
[10:04:00] <Kev> I think Board can decide if they want such a thing. I don't see the value, but I'm not Board.
[10:04:10] <ralphm> Kev: indeed
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[10:40:32] *Ge0rG 's got one good reason for IBB. With 0198, you can have stream resumption for file transfers.
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[10:41:47] <ralphm> While that might be an argument, I am not sure if it is a particularly strong one.
[10:42:12] <fippo> if your server doesn't like IBB and kills you for bad karma, you might trick the karma mechanism :-)
[10:42:38] <Ge0rG> how does SCTP-DTLS handle live network changes?
[10:42:45] <ralphm> I.e. for file transfers, if the transfer is broken at some point, you know which pieces you have, and can simply start a new transfer for the missing pieces
[10:42:45] <fippo> (i don't want to look further down the road... karma was always simplified too much)
[10:42:55] <fippo> ge0rg: using ice / mice
[10:43:39] <fippo> ge0rg: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wing-mmusic-ice-mobility-02
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[10:45:20] *Ge0rG puts mice on his read-list
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[10:59:42] <Ge0rG> ralphm: resuming a file transfer somewhere in the middle is a security problem, as well
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[11:00:43] <ralphm> Ge0rG: I don't see how the transport method affects that statement
[11:02:11] <Ge0rG> ralphm: maybe I'm just hanging at the slight semantic difference between "resume" and "continue"
[11:03:33] <ralphm> Ge0rG: hang in there!
[11:05:17] *Ge0rG whistles Jeopardy tune...
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[12:03:11] <dwd> We (the Board) do actually have a seperate MUC for private discussion, but we've rarely used it.
[12:03:33] <dwd> I think we used it to discuss an incoming sponsor once, and that's it.
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[12:05:34] <Kev> dwd: Other than board@?
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[12:08:26] <dwd> Yes; seemed easier to setup a new one than repurpose an existing one at the time.
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[12:11:47] <Kev> OK.
[12:11:52] <Kev> Also on xmpp.org?
[12:12:33] <dwd> Yes
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[12:13:51] <Kev> OK.
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[13:43:45] <ralphm> simon: I want to add pictures from the Lounge to the Summit event in Plus. Can you extend the dates?
[13:45:19] <ralphm> or any other suggestion for collecting pictures from both in one album
[13:49:08] <ralphm> emcho: you guys have a bunch of pictures of the lounge, yes?
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[14:49:15] <emcho> ralphm: I'll ask around and I'll come back to you
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[14:52:17] <emcho> https://docs.google.com/a/sip-communicator.org/file/d/0BwiF7kZbHitaT3ZxUlNYbWdSWE0/edit
https://docs.google.com/a/sip-communicator.org/file/d/0BwiF7kZbHitaYWxCWXdLbW9LeUE/edit
https://docs.google.com/a/sip-communicator.org/file/d/0BwiF7kZbHitaU1d0TTBjZUVXNFU/edit
https://docs.google.com/a/sip-communicator.org/file/d/0BwiF7kZbHitadUF4bUFNc3lrZE0/edit
https://docs.google.com/a/sip-communicator.org/file/d/0BwiF7kZbHitaVXdvY2VlSzNrRkk/edit
[14:53:16] <emcho> are those readable to you?
[14:53:51] <Tobias> emcho, seems so
[14:54:16] <emcho> cool
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[14:56:49] <ralphm> emcho: cool. Since they are in the Googleplex already, can you add them to the photos on the XMPP Summit event on G+ by Simon?
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[15:01:40] <emcho> ralphm: where's that. can't find anything on simon's page other than the BC photos from the mountains
[15:03:04] <Tobias> https://plus.google.com/events/cducp61naq050ce9cufjlfh37d8?authkey=CIjS4KHjiq2zpAE this is it i think
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[15:18:52] <ralphm> emcho: what Tobias says. It is in the XMPP community page
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[15:25:22] <ralphm> hi Lance
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[15:32:10] <emcho> ralphm: ok done. will add more as people check them in
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[16:00:48] <simon> ralphm: dates extended. Photos should be addable.
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[16:15:10] <bear> dwd - can you send that link to my andyet email address?
[16:23:00] <dwd> BTW, I personally have no issues with the spreadsheet currently being played with by Board being made public; but I wasn't happy doing that unilaterally or when the figures were still rough.
[16:23:39] <bear> once we get all the final data, no reason to not publish a read-only version IMO
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[17:01:29] <ralphm> emcho: thanks!
[17:01:49] <ralphm> simon: thanks! It seems Plus doesn't actually mind
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[17:38:58] <dwd> [17:27:17] Dave Cridland: http://ubber.com seems to give me German error messages. Might want to check that out.
[17:35:20] Florian Jensen: hmm
[17:35:21] Florian Jensen: our geo db is off then
[17:39:02] <dwd> I'm *so* cruel.
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[17:41:24] <fippo> rotfl
[17:42:43] <Tobias> hehe
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[17:55:39] <bear> LOL
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[18:10:02] <ralphm> dwd: good thing you have a thinking cap now
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[18:34:37] <bear> ralphm - remember to send me an email for the cost of the realtime logo'd bean bags
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[18:39:56] <ralphm> bear: ack
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[18:45:04] <ralphm> bear: sent
[18:45:09] <bear> ta
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[20:26:47] <dwd> bear, You messed up my spreadsheet. :-)
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[20:27:23] <Zash> BEAR, WHYYYYY
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[20:28:39] <Tobias> yeah...didn't you get that memo?
[20:29:07] <waqas> Tobias: Which one?
[20:29:25] <Tobias> waqas, about the spreadsheets....right next to the one about the TPS reports
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[20:50:18] *dwd unmesses the sheet.
[20:51:41] <dwd> bear had made the loss look bigger, whereas now it's much better. Benefits of some ad-hoc training in accountancy.
[20:53:12] <waqas> They train you to make losses look smaller?
[20:53:55] <dwd> No, they train you to get the signs correct.
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[21:34:37] <Neustradamus> one guy will post an article about FOSDEM on the website?
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[21:37:41] <dwd> Yes, we'll get to that. The Summit, too.
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[21:38:29] <ralphm> dwd: what if is isn't one. Or not even a guy?
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[21:44:31] <dwd> ralphm, I'm somewhat hoping it won't be a guy. :-)
[21:44:48] <Zash> Maybe it'll be a person.
[21:44:51] <Zash> Or two
[21:44:53] <Zash> or more
[21:44:54] <ralphm> Zash: what!
[21:45:42] <Zash> Just maybe
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