Friday, February 07, 2014
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[13:28:31] <simon> Does the XSF have an official twitter account?
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[13:29:25] <Kev> I believe that the answer is No, but I couldn't swear to it.
[13:29:43] <simon> @xmpp looks rather dead
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[13:29:54] <simon> might nudge him and ask if we could use it.
[13:29:59] <Steffen Larsen> can we ask if we can have it from the given person?
[13:30:23] <Steffen Larsen> is @xsf taken?
[13:31:18] <bear> yes, Donnet Yatsko has it
[13:31:24] <bear> with all of zero tweets
[13:31:34] <Steffen Larsen> :-)
[13:31:51] <simon> Should I know who he is?
[13:32:01] <bear> doubtful
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[13:34:20] <bear> we could send twitter a letter asking them to take over the xsf account because it's our brand
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[13:34:40] <ralphm> https://support.twitter.com/articles/15362-inactive-account-policy
[13:35:00] <simon> Nice friendly note sent.
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[13:35:11] <simon> Will follow up if/when I hear anything back.
[13:35:22] <bear> k
[13:35:47] <Lloyd> Who runs the facebook xmpp page?
[13:36:05] <ralphm> Lloyd: I'm pretty sure that's Neustradamus
[13:36:49] <ralphm> there's also one for the foundation
[13:38:12] <Alex> I thnk thats the most active on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/jabber
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[13:50:07] <dwd> xnyhps, So your own tests don't use a valid certificate? Have to score you an F, then. :-P
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[13:54:09] <xnyhps> It doesn't even listen on a socket for incoming connections, it's completely fake. :P
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[13:55:34] <simon> xnyhps - do you plan on testing that sites reject invalid certs.
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[13:56:21] <Zash> That would be one interesting data point.
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[13:57:53] <simon> Zash: My thinking too. Basically check whether servers blindly trust peers.
[13:58:21] <Zash> Well, most servers will fall back to dialback, but there are some who reject
[13:59:04] <simon> Zash: good point.
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[13:59:48] <Zash> I have a bot running on a server with a self-signed cert, which is useful partly for that reason.
[13:59:56] <simon> I personally run with s2s_secure_auth = true (on prosody) so that I don't have to trust DNS too much.
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[14:00:52] <dwd> simon, Trouble is, I think the different combinations of security options yield some surprising results. Accepting dialback with self-signed certs is probably (I think) fine in combination with DNSSEC.
[14:00:55] <Zash> Bunneh, ping acc.umu.se
[14:00:56] <Bunneh> Zash: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: not-authorized (Your server's certificate is invalid, expired, or not trusted by acc.umu.se)
[14:01:00] <Zash> Like that :)
[14:01:50] <dwd> simon, I think that "classic" TLS auth is better than DNSSEC+dialback+unauth-TLS. But it's not by much.
[14:02:54] <simon> dwd: does one need to use a CA for DANE to work?
[14:04:00] <simon> my thinking was that DANE + a signed TLD, invalidated the need to use CAs - a good thing imho
[14:04:43] <Zash> DNSSEC removes some attack vectors from dialback. Attacks on IP routing could still work, but that ought to be harder.
[14:06:02] <Zash> simon: There are a few variants in DANE. You can say something like 'only this CA is allowed here and you must trust it already'
[14:06:46] <Zash> or you can point to your own CA and specify that as a root, or point to the actual cert or public key used by the server
[14:07:08] *simon likes giving the middle finger to CAs.
[14:07:51] <Zash> If you use the non-PKI variants of DANE, you'll still have your TLD as CA :)
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[14:07:58] *ralphm likes his middlefingers. Keeping them.
[14:09:38] <simon> Would be really nice if someone could write up a basic guide for the wiki. I'd really like to get this deployed on some of my own domains.
[14:09:53] <simon> (with or without middle-finger-donations)
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[15:03:01] <ralphm> Chromebox for Meetings. Wonder how much XMPP is in there.
[15:04:24] <ralphm> (https://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/business/solutions/for-meetings.html)
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[15:08:34] <fippo> ralphm: the thing formerly known as libjingle is inside ;-)
[15:08:49] <ralphm> well, yeah, of course
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[16:06:43] <Ge0rG> dwd: NebuK is asking about your MUC merge progress. come back to yaxim@chat.yax.im please :)
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[16:07:38] <simon> Yaxim + muc would be nice.
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[16:08:36] <Ge0rG> simon: indeed. there is some old code for that, but it needs to be polished and brought forward into current master.
[16:08:53] <Ge0rG> simon: Dave did some progress with that, but forgot to tell us where to find his code ;)
[16:09:26] <dwd> Ge0rG, Actual work is a bit busy, sorry. But I've merged to about June, so far.
[16:09:49] <Ge0rG> dwd: thats ok, but please coordinate more with NebuK on the yaxim MUC.
[16:09:57] <Ge0rG> dwd: he is starting to merge stuff as well... :)
[16:10:47] *Ge0rG is a bit busy with staying away from work... and from the laptop. so must delegate this
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[16:15:52] <NebuK> hi there
[16:16:39] <NebuK> dwd, and here is the MUC guy ;) i'm currently trying to merge my own horrible code into current master -- how is you progress with that? (even though offtopic -- and/or do you want to come over to yaxims MUC?)
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[16:21:59] <dwd> NebuK, I've merged to about June or so. WOrking through slowly. I'll get there, but I'm busy with work etc right now.
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[16:27:28] <NebuK> oh, ok
[16:28:06] <NebuK> so ... what exactly are you merging? simply muc into master, or anything else? also, do you have your current state in a git somewhere, so i can start off from there?
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[16:44:37] <dwd> NebuK, No, it's halfway through a massive rebase. :-) Not something I can push anywhere.
[16:45:56] <NebuK> uh
[16:46:00] <NebuK> what are you doing, if i might ask?
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[20:16:29] <Neustradamus> I sent an email on the members ML because I have not email since November 2013.
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[20:20:04] <stpeter> Neustradamus: you can send but not receive?
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[20:20:13] <Neustradamus> yes
[20:20:55] <Zash> Nothing in a spam folder?
[20:21:08] <Neustradamus> like I have already said, jabber.org/xmpp.org are on blacklists
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[20:22:33] <Neustradamus> there were discussions on iteam room, but the problem is not really resolved :/
[20:22:57] <Zash> What blacklists?
[20:23:07] <stpeter> Neustradamus: I am going to send you a test message from stpeter@jabber.org - please let me know if you receive it
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[20:24:25] <Neustradamus> stpeter: I will inform you if I have
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[20:24:44] <stpeter> Neustradamus: you won't receive it
[20:24:51] <Neustradamus> no
[20:24:51] <stpeter> mail.log says:

Feb 7 20:21:32 atlas postfix/smtp[24019]: 3EE4E219EA8: to=<lbxmpp@live.com>, relay=mx2.hotmail.com[65.55.92.184]:25, delay=0.49, delays=0.08/0/0.37/0.04, dsn=4.0.0, status=deferred (host mx2.hotmail.com[65.55.92.184] said: 421 RP-001 (SNT0-MC4-F52) Unfortunately, some messages from 208.68.163.215 weren't sent. Please try again. We have limits for how many messages can be sent per hour and per day. You can also refer to http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx#errors. (in reply to MAIL FROM command))
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[20:25:50] <Neustradamus> intosi said me it is same for AOL and others companies
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[20:31:42] <stpeter> well, for instance, the operators@xmpp.org list has 25 @hotmail.com addresses subscribed, and if we have a lot of traffic on the list then hotmail might consider that spammy
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[20:32:33] <fippo> if only mail servers knew about their users subscriptions and could apply that to "karma" limits ;-)
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[20:32:33] <Neustradamus> hotmail.* live.* outlook.* for ML (not only operators)
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[20:33:36] <Neustradamus> stpeter: DKIM and SPF are easy no?
[20:33:51] <Zash> SPF is there already
[20:34:06] <Zash> DKIM is anything but easy
[20:34:10] <stpeter> the last time I tried to install DKIM I hosed my VPS
[20:34:32] <Zash> DKIM and mailing lists are not friends
[20:35:10] <waqas> A lot of the ML emails used to end up in spam, because of DKIM
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[20:36:28] <Neustradamus> what will be the best solution for you?
[20:36:52] <stpeter> Neustradamus: use a different email service?
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[20:37:19] <Neustradamus> But I am not alone
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[20:38:38] <stpeter> Neustradamus: do you know what hotmail's policy is? how many email messages are too many?
[20:38:52] <Kev> No, but if your provider is blocking mail because it's from mailing lists, your choices are limited.
[20:39:08] <Neustradamus> stpeter: no :/
[20:39:29] <Kev> As I understand it, this isn't a blacklisting issues, it's just that your provider doesn't like receiving several mails at once, which is always going to happen with mailing list traffic.
[20:39:51] <Neustradamus> the server is really secure?
[20:40:06] <Kev> No server is really secure if it's attached to the internet.
[20:40:30] <stpeter> :)
[20:40:33] <stpeter> true day
[20:40:36] <stpeter> dat even
[20:40:46] <Neustradamus> correct
[20:41:18] <stpeter> Kev: that's my understanding, too -- they just don't like to receive a burst of messages or "too many messages" (not sure if that's in any particular time frame)
[20:41:29] <Zash> "Reason for rate limitation is related to IP/domain reputation."
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[20:43:25] <Neustradamus> There are not sender bot on the server?
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[20:45:32] <waqas> Mailing lists used to work fine on hotmail when I used to use it, but that was a long time ago
[20:46:09] <intosi> hotmail loves rate limitjng servers
[20:46:33] <stpeter> less for them to do :-)
[20:46:44] <intosi> phps mailgun can help out? ralphm?
[20:46:45] <Neustradamus> intosi: same for AOL?
[20:46:51] <intosi> yes
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[20:48:16] <Neustradamus> but it is really strange, I had never problem before
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[21:06:59] <ralphm> intosi: didn't you mention we've been blacklisted and that you have been fixing things recently?
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[21:08:37] <dwd> .sdrawkcab tuo emoc segassem ym semitemoS
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[21:09:10] <dwd> ?detaler eb siht dluoC
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[21:10:10] <Kev> Mr. Cridland, please to try to behave.
[21:10:20] <intosi> i did
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[21:11:07] <Zash> ‏.gnibrutsid kram LTR fo kcal ruoy dnif I :dwd
[21:11:08] <intosi> spent many hours on fuxing tjings
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[21:11:52] <intosi> hacker kbd on a phone screen is.. less ideal
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[21:12:53] <dwd> Zash, Back before the dawn of time, I used to be able to type backwards fairly fluently. I used to tell people on IRC that I'd changed some setting in my client, and please could they help me.
[21:13:09] <Zash> Haha
[21:13:27] <Kev> /part and /quit are sitting on a wall. /part falls off. Who's left?
[21:13:35] <Kev> As the old one goes.
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[21:14:00] <intosi> heh
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[21:14:12] <dwd> Hey, that was cruel.
[21:14:42] <Kev> Or, slightly more amusingly,
Hey this is really cool - see what happens if you type `/disco lights/` in your client!
[21:14:58] <Zash> Hahaaaaa
[21:15:11] <dwd> Come to think of it, Gajim actually has /commands, for all I know it has /quit.
[21:15:28] <Zash> I think it even has /exce -o
[21:15:36] <intosi> now my home lugting is blinking
[21:15:37] <Zash> I think it even has /exec -o
[21:15:53] <intosi> lighting
[21:16:16] <Zash> Pro-tip: Don't /exec -o yes
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[21:16:33] <Zash> Unless you /exec -o yes otters!
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[21:19:48] <waqas> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWZLa4AnN5k
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[21:22:06] <Zash> lolwut
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[21:22:48] <ralphm> intosi: so I think that taint could last some time
[21:23:01] <Zash> They didn't forsee that in StarTrek ^^
[21:23:36] <ralphm> intosi: I'd be happy to see if we can help out, just not right now
[21:24:35] <intosi> we ll chat abput it l8r
[21:24:48] <ralphm> k
[21:25:13] <dwd> Zash, Hello, my name is Computer End Program?
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[22:21:08] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[22:23:09] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[22:24:00] *** Jef shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:24:18] *** Jef shows as "online"
[22:26:32] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[22:28:11] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[22:31:22] *** NebuK shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:31:55] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[22:31:57] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:33:13] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[22:37:35] *** Tobias has joined the room
[22:37:39] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[22:38:16] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[22:39:19] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:40:07] *** dwd shows as "online"
[22:40:36] *** Alex shows as "online"
[22:40:36] *** Alex_ shows as "online"
[22:41:18] *** NebuK shows as "online"
[22:41:57] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[22:41:57] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:42:48] *** Alex_ has left the room
[22:42:48] *** Alex has left the room
[22:43:19] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[22:45:49] *** SouL has left the room
[22:46:44] *** Jef shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:46:48] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:48:19] *** Zash has left the room
[22:48:21] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[22:51:48] *** Jef shows as "online"
[22:51:56] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[22:52:13] *** Zash has joined the room
[22:52:13] *** Zash shows as "online"
[22:53:23] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[22:56:48] *** Jef shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:56:48] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:58:25] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:00:02] *** Jef shows as "online"
[23:01:29] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[23:01:56] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:03:27] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:05:33] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:05:44] *** NebuK shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:05:49] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:05:54] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[23:06:49] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:07:49] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:07:52] *** NebuK shows as "online"
[23:08:29] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:11:56] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:12:12] *** Jef shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:12:54] *** Jef shows as "online"
[23:13:31] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:18:33] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:19:13] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:21:34] *** Jef shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:21:42] *** Jef shows as "online"
[23:21:57] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:23:35] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:27:10] *** Jef shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:28:23] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[23:28:38] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[23:28:38] *** Jef shows as "online"
[23:28:38] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:31:57] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:33:02] *** NebuK has left the room
[23:33:06] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[23:33:40] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:37:01] *** Jef shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:38:42] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:41:56] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:43:44] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:43:53] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[23:46:45] *** Jef shows as "online"
[23:48:46] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:51:56] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:53:49] *** zooldk shows as "away"
[23:55:14] *** Kev shows as "away"
[23:58:51] *** zooldk shows as "away"