XSF Discussion - 2014-02-10


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  40. Kev Hey folks. Pubsubbish question.
  41. Kev Would people think it unexpected if they did a disco#items on pubsub.server.tld, and got back results for something1@pubsub.server.tld, something2@pubsub.server.tld, something3@pubsub.server.tld... each with a single node per JID?
  42. Kev (Note use of 'unexpected' rather than 'illegal')
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  48. ralphm Kev: I think so, yet.
  49. ralphm yes
  50. ralphm It doesn't seem illegal, though.
  51. ralphm Reading the prose in XEP-0030, it does seem to favor addressable entities (i.e. things with a JID) over using nodes.
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  53. ralphm Having an empty node identifier is ill-defined in XEP-0060. Of course there's a reference to a section on collections, but that section has moved to it's own XEP.
  54. ralphm (and I am still of the opinion that collections are not a thing to want, even though it might appear that way at first)
  55. dwd ralphm, I like collections.
  56. ralphm dwd: no you don't, trust me.
  57. dwd Kev, Unexpected, yes.
  58. dwd ralphm, I implemented "full" collections. I really quite like the notion.
  59. ralphm I haven't found any compelling use case where you want to deal with DAGs and all the explicitness of setting them up. I did think I wanted to use them on multiple occasions, and then always did a second implementation with implicit nodes as an interface to an existing (or new even) backend's business logic.
  60. ralphm Some of those nodes would kinda feel like collections, but without all the hassle and fixed semantics.
  61. dwd Yes, I think if you're implementing a customer pubsub layer over existing logic, you don't need them. But I'd prefer a way to avoid that being the only way to deploy pubsub.
  62. ralphm dwd: I'm sympathetic to that idea, but it always seems to result in distributed knowledge about 'resources', with all the synchronisation issues that come with that.
  63. ralphm I'd like to compare this with the way the web currently works, especially after CGI was 'invented'. Most of the time, you don't explicitly create resources there, either.
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  65. dwd Don't *say* that. The REST people will crawl out of the woodwork.
  66. dwd Once they start, they never shut up.
  67. ralphm Fortunately, I'm room admin.
  68. ralphm And I'm also ok with creating leaf nodes explicitly. But collections are arguably designed to mimick some existing backend topology, and I think it's better to do that by making the pubsub protocol part of that backend, instead of treating it as an external, second-class thing.
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  70. ralphm Taking that to its conclusion, you generally don't need all the explicitness of collection node configuration.
  71. ralphm And probably also not exposing the internal structure of where an event came from.
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  74. Kev ralphm / dwd: Thanks.
  75. ralphm Kev: I'd love to hear more about the actual use case.
  76. Kev I think it's just a wart of someone not knowing what the usual way of doing things was.
  77. Kev I saw this happening, there's no reason for it to need to be this way. I just wanted to check I wasn't just being Wrong before I suggested it was unusual for them to do this.
  78. dwd As I recall, at one point, that was considered the right way.
  79. ralphm dwd: wait what?
  80. dwd ralphm, Pubsub nodes having a local-part to their jid.
  81. Kev I don't remember this.
  82. ralphm dwd: I think you are confused with http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0024.html
  83. dwd Oh, no, I'm muddled. It was resource-parts that were added.
  84. dwd '60ยง4.6.1 I'm thinking of.
  85. dwd The Node identifier MUST NOT be specified by the node identifier, in fact.
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  87. dwd Yay for overloaded terms!
  88. Kev Ambiguity is underrated.
  89. Kev And, to be clear, when I say 'ambiguity', I'm using it in the sense of 'being clear'.
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  92. ralphm Kev: if you want to argue against 'wrong', have a look here: http://howtosdeit.blogspot.nl/2014/02/comunicate-rabbitmq-with-publish.html?spref=tw
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  95. Kev Ta.
  96. Kev As an aside, I've decided not to put up Swift ideas for GSoC this year. I don't think I've got time to mentor properly.
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  99. ralphm Kev: rather that then finding out while students are at it.
  100. ralphm Kev: good call
  101. Kev It's a shame. I like GSoC, but work has become...busy.
  102. Simon This whole day-job thing really cramps one's style.
  103. ralphm :-)
  104. Kev Wouldn't swap it.
  105. ralphm "They say Google is dropping #XMPP on May 15th. So it seems we are dropping Hangouts in the day of our first anniversary. F*ck them!" โ€” LoquiIM (https://twitter.com/LoquiIM/statuses/432867870016434176)
  106. Tobias they?
  107. Tobias are they referring to some magic 8-ball?
  108. ralphm Don't know. But if that turns out to be true, I can see how they will support unauthenticated encryption on all s2s traffic by May 19.
  109. Kev Heh.
  110. Simon Anyone know any of the Loqui guys?
  111. ralphm I don't think I do.
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  113. Simon I've asked Sonny Piers since he works in Spain and in XMPP and I don't think there are many XMPP startups in Spain.
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  115. ralphm As a counter argument, I know virtually no XMPP developers in The Netherlands, where I'm sure there are some.
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  117. dwd {citation-needed}
  118. dwd I mean for the May 15th thing.
  119. dwd Ah, Google Voice is dropping XMPP support on May 15th.
  120. Zash Google Voice has XMPP support?
  121. dwd http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/11/04/merging-of-google-voice-and-hangouts-will-result-shutting-down-all-3rd-party-voice-apps-in-may-2014/ and so on. Announced on 2013/11/01 I think.
  122. Tobias Zash, come on, admit it, you'll gonna miss it
  123. Zash Yes, me, of all people, is gonig to miss it.
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  146. ralphm dwd: yeah, that's the only stuff I could find, too. I'd be very amazed if all XMPP support, i.e. the old Google Talk network, would be shutdown at that date. Of course I've been surprised before.
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  158. Neustradamus and: http://blog.obihai.com/2013/10/important-message-about-google-voice.html
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  160. Neustradamus https://productforums.google.com/forum/?_escaped_fragment_=topic/voice/CdojHZ5_WBU#!topic/voice/CdojHZ5_WBU
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  168. dwd Chatting to Richard Barnes, "our" RAI AD - he's offering to help push for MozSpace as needed from the Mozilla side.
  169. Zash MozSpace?
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  181. bear zash - where can I find luasec?
  182. bear I have added prosody.im's apt repo but apt is not finding it
  183. Zash Which distro/version?
  184. bear nv
  185. bear it's liblua5.1-sec1 - like I had any chance of guessing that package name
  186. Zash Ah, heh
  187. Tobias sec1 is better than sec0
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  189. bear ah crap - where is util.sql found?
  190. Zash In trunk
  191. bear what file - it's obvious my current server has it, but i'm setting up yet another test server
  192. bear and running into that error
  193. Zash util/sql.lua
  194. Zash It's not included in 0.9
  195. bear nods
  196. Tobias it's part of Prosody Business Edition
  197. bear I am missing it from my install notes
  198. bear hmm, it says module DBI isn't found - which file is that?
  199. Zash Separate package
  200. Zash LuaDBI
  201. Zash https://prosody.im/doc/depends#luadbi
  202. bear ah - lua-dbi-mysql
  203. bear wow - my notes from before really sucked
  204. bear why am I asking prosody questions in here
  205. bear sighs