Monday, February 10, 2014
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[14:16:39] <Kev> Hey folks. Pubsubbish question.
[14:17:55] <Kev> Would people think it unexpected if they did a disco#items on pubsub.server.tld, and got back results for something1@pubsub.server.tld, something2@pubsub.server.tld, something3@pubsub.server.tld... each with a single node per JID?
[14:18:03] <Kev> (Note use of 'unexpected' rather than 'illegal')
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[14:27:23] <ralphm> Kev: I think so, yet.
[14:27:25] <ralphm> yes
[14:27:43] <ralphm> It doesn't seem illegal, though.
[14:28:46] <ralphm> Reading the prose in XEP-0030, it does seem to favor addressable entities (i.e. things with a JID) over using nodes.
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[14:31:50] <ralphm> Having an empty node identifier is ill-defined in XEP-0060. Of course there's a reference to a section on collections, but that section has moved to it's own XEP.
[14:32:42] <ralphm> (and I am still of the opinion that collections are not a thing to want, even though it might appear that way at first)
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[14:46:25] <dwd> ralphm, I like collections.
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[14:46:42] <ralphm> dwd: no you don't, trust me.
[14:46:46] <dwd> Kev, Unexpected, yes.
[14:47:00] <dwd> ralphm, I implemented "full" collections. I really quite like the notion.
[14:49:25] <ralphm> I haven't found any compelling use case where you want to deal with DAGs and all the explicitness of setting them up. I did think I wanted to use them on multiple occasions, and then always did a second implementation with implicit nodes as an interface to an existing (or new even) backend's business logic.
[14:50:12] <ralphm> Some of those nodes would kinda feel like collections, but without all the hassle and fixed semantics.
[14:50:47] <dwd> Yes, I think if you're implementing a customer pubsub layer over existing logic, you don't need them. But I'd prefer a way to avoid that being the only way to deploy pubsub.
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[14:52:36] <ralphm> dwd: I'm sympathetic to that idea, but it always seems to result in distributed knowledge about 'resources', with all the synchronisation issues that come with that.
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[14:54:12] <ralphm> I'd like to compare this with the way the web currently works, especially after CGI was 'invented'. Most of the time, you don't explicitly create resources there, either.
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[14:55:21] <dwd> Don't *say* that. The REST people will crawl out of the woodwork.
[14:55:26] <dwd> Once they start, they never shut up.
[14:55:42] <ralphm> Fortunately, I'm room admin.
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[14:58:29] <ralphm> And I'm also ok with creating leaf nodes explicitly. But collections are arguably designed to mimick some existing backend topology, and I think it's better to do that by making the pubsub protocol part of that backend, instead of treating it as an external, second-class thing.
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[14:59:29] <ralphm> Taking that to its conclusion, you generally don't need all the explicitness of collection node configuration.
[15:00:15] <ralphm> And probably also not exposing the internal structure of where an event came from.
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[15:07:13] <Kev> ralphm / dwd: Thanks.
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[15:07:31] <ralphm> Kev: I'd love to hear more about the actual use case.
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[15:07:50] <Kev> I think it's just a wart of someone not knowing what the usual way of doing things was.
[15:08:35] <Kev> I saw this happening, there's no reason for it to need to be this way. I just wanted to check I wasn't just being Wrong before I suggested it was unusual for them to do this.
[15:09:09] <dwd> As I recall, at one point, that was considered the right way.
[15:09:29] <ralphm> dwd: wait what?
[15:09:47] <dwd> ralphm, Pubsub nodes having a local-part to their jid.
[15:10:31] <Kev> I don't remember this.
[15:11:25] <ralphm> dwd: I think you are confused with http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0024.html
[15:11:27] <dwd> Oh, no, I'm muddled. It was resource-parts that were added.
[15:11:42] <dwd> '60§4.6.1 I'm thinking of.
[15:12:25] <dwd> The Node identifier MUST NOT be specified by the node identifier, in fact.
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[15:12:31] <dwd> Yay for overloaded terms!
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[15:15:34] <Kev> Ambiguity is underrated.
[15:15:45] <Kev> And, to be clear, when I say 'ambiguity', I'm using it in the sense of 'being clear'.
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[15:17:37] <ralphm> Kev: if you want to argue against 'wrong', have a look here: http://howtosdeit.blogspot.nl/2014/02/comunicate-rabbitmq-with-publish.html?spref=tw
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[15:24:39] <Kev> Ta.
[15:25:17] <Kev> As an aside, I've decided not to put up Swift ideas for GSoC this year. I don't think I've got time to mentor properly.
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[15:38:53] <ralphm> Kev: rather that then finding out while students are at it.
[15:39:02] <ralphm> Kev: good call
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[15:39:33] <Kev> It's a shame. I like GSoC, but work has become...busy.
[15:40:24] <Simon> This whole day-job thing really cramps one's style.
[15:40:42] <ralphm> :-)
[15:40:48] <Kev> Wouldn't swap it.
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[15:43:57] <ralphm> "They say Google is dropping #XMPP on May 15th. So it seems we are dropping Hangouts in the day of our first anniversary. F*ck them!" — LoquiIM (https://twitter.com/LoquiIM/statuses/432867870016434176)
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[15:44:43] <Tobias> they?
[15:44:58] <Tobias> are they referring to some magic 8-ball?
[15:47:06] <ralphm> Don't know. But if that turns out to be true, I can see how they will support unauthenticated encryption on all s2s traffic by May 19.
[15:47:16] <Kev> Heh.
[15:47:54] <Simon> Anyone know any of the Loqui guys?
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[15:50:02] <ralphm> I don't think I do.
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[15:50:42] <Simon> I've asked Sonny Piers since he works in Spain and in XMPP and I don't think there are many XMPP startups in Spain.
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[15:51:15] <ralphm> As a counter argument, I know virtually no XMPP developers in The Netherlands, where I'm sure there are some.
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[15:58:06] <dwd> {citation-needed}
[15:58:17] <dwd> I mean for the May 15th thing.
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[15:58:59] <dwd> Ah, Google Voice is dropping XMPP support on May 15th.
[15:59:13] <Zash> Google Voice has XMPP support?
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[16:01:17] <dwd> http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/11/04/merging-of-google-voice-and-hangouts-will-result-shutting-down-all-3rd-party-voice-apps-in-may-2014/ and so on. Announced on 2013/11/01 I think.
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[16:02:10] <Tobias> Zash, come on, admit it, you'll gonna miss it
[16:02:39] <Zash> Yes, me, of all people, is gonig to miss it.
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[18:39:43] <ralphm> dwd: yeah, that's the only stuff I could find, too. I'd be very amazed if all XMPP support, i.e. the old Google Talk network, would be shutdown at that date. Of course I've been surprised before.
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[20:29:05] <Neustradamus> and: http://blog.obihai.com/2013/10/important-message-about-google-voice.html
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[20:30:16] <Neustradamus> https://productforums.google.com/forum/?_escaped_fragment_=topic/voice/CdojHZ5_WBU#!topic/voice/CdojHZ5_WBU
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[21:32:13] <dwd> Chatting to Richard Barnes, "our" RAI AD - he's offering to help push for MozSpace as needed from the Mozilla side.
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[21:33:39] <Zash> MozSpace?
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[22:49:44] <bear> zash - where can I find luasec?
[22:49:58] <bear> I have added prosody.im's apt repo but apt is not finding it
[22:50:06] <Zash> Which distro/version?
[22:50:30] <bear> nv
[22:50:53] <bear> it's liblua5.1-sec1 - like I had any chance of guessing that package name
[22:51:03] <Zash> Ah, heh
[22:51:14] <Tobias> sec1 is better than sec0
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[22:57:34] <bear> ah crap - where is util.sql found?
[22:57:58] <Zash> In trunk
[22:58:23] <bear> what file - it's obvious my current server has it, but i'm setting up yet another test server
[22:58:29] <bear> and running into that error
[22:58:31] <Zash> util/sql.lua
[22:58:37] <Zash> It's not included in 0.9
[22:59:12] *bear nods
[22:59:18] <Tobias> it's part of Prosody Business Edition
[22:59:21] <bear> I am missing it from my install notes
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[23:02:34] <bear> hmm, it says module DBI isn't found - which file is that?
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[23:02:56] <Zash> Separate package
[23:03:00] <Zash> LuaDBI
[23:03:11] <Zash> https://prosody.im/doc/depends#luadbi
[23:03:23] <bear> ah - lua-dbi-mysql
[23:03:55] <bear> wow - my notes from before really sucked
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[23:06:46] <bear> why am I asking prosody questions in here
[23:06:48] *bear sighs
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