Wednesday, February 19, 2014
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[10:26:16] <fippo> lloyd: https://twitter.com/disruptivedean/status/436063951932379136 -- you should make him happy by showing webrtc in xmpp-ftw (-:
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[10:28:23] <Tobias> berling ^^is that our capitol's asian outpost?
[10:32:01] <intosi> FOSDEM 2005, and a beer event at Le Roy d'Espagne. Those were the days ;)
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[13:11:57] <fippo> erm... is openfire seriously asking for ?username=null&password=null&resource=xmpp for websocket connections? i've read the source but...
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[13:13:13] <Zash> Eh, wat
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[13:18:17] <fippo> you specify as ws://yourserverhere:7070/ws/server?user=null&password=null&resource=foo uri
[13:18:31] <fippo> and the source has if (username.equals("null") && password.equals("null")) // anonymous user
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[14:17:24] <simon> Has anyone done any thinking about storing read/unread message states or read-up-to-<messageID>? Would this be something added to MAM?
[14:18:17] <simon> Kev - I think you mentioned having done some thinking about this.
[14:18:18] <Ash> I think there was some talk about this on the mailing list recently...
[14:18:37] <simon> I'll check the archives. I know there was talk of needing this during the Summit.
[14:18:40] <Kev> Lance and I discussed this outside the lift in the Aloft.
[14:19:05] <simon> pity you were only on the first floor Kev.
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[14:19:27] <simon> Kev: is this an addition to mam or new spec?
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[14:19:40] <Kev> Anyway. I think there's a little jiggling to go on.
[14:20:07] <simon> Is that a technical term?
[14:21:04] <Kev> In as much as what happens is that you use carbons + the MAM id (which answers my question about whether it's useful) + the 'reset' that we discussed in terms of the push spec.
[14:21:24] <Kev> The reset gets relayed to all your clients because of carbons, and boom. Everyone knows everything's read.
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[14:23:00] <simon> Doesn't that makes the assumption that one is using push?
[14:23:43] <simon> for example, it would be nice to have a webclient that, when you log in again, shows you an unread counter for posts newer than <last time you logged in>.
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[14:30:18] <Kev> simon: It makes the assumption that we define the 'reset' outside the push framework.
[14:32:27] <simon> Kev: if I understand you correctly it's a "I've read all messages from this user/pub-sub node/mam-able feed". I thik we're looking for something a little more granular (but not called IMAP).
[14:32:33] <simon> as in I've read up to this point.
[14:34:43] <simon> I'll write up the problem to the list if that makes it clearer.
[14:34:49] <Kev> It's I've read everything up to point X in my stream (and therefore in your streams too, because of carbons, as far as chat messages are concerned).
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[14:40:33] <simon> that sound exactly like what we want for each channel: A client can push back a read-to-this-point to the server. Next time they log in, the client can show you that you have n unread posts. What's the next step for speccing this?
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[15:07:48] <ralphm> simon: I once thought up a way to implement notifications like on android devices. Every notification is a pubsub item. You can retract them. Done.
[15:12:19] <simon> ralphm: true. I'm pleased that we discussed the need to retract push requests at the Summit - something that could have been overlooked easily.
[15:13:11] <ralphm> I think I like how it works. Pushes yield notifications and retractions do as well.
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[16:24:28] <dwd> ICMP_ECHO_REQUEST
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[16:26:00] <fippo> ICMP_ECHO_REPLY
[16:26:39] <dwd> RESPONSE, I thought. But I was hoping for some fellow Board people to respond. :-)
[16:27:10] <Zash> 0x0303
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[16:27:36] <dwd> Zash, yeah, I can't even be bothered to look up the ICMP type.
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[16:34:14] <dwd> So I think it's Board Time. Isn't it?
[16:34:20] <Laura> Hi all
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[16:34:33] *simon waves
[16:34:46] <dwd> ralphm, Ping?
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[16:35:47] <Laura> Testing testing
[16:35:53] <dwd> Laura, Works.
[16:36:07] <Laura> Thanks! Had issues connecting
[16:36:10] <dwd> We'll give it 5 to see if ralphm or bear show up.
[16:36:13] <Laura> cool
[16:36:15] <ralphm> here
[16:36:42] <dwd> ralphm, I'm assuming you'll act as Chairman?
[16:36:52] *dwd grabs his lunch quickly.
[16:37:07] <dwd> Wasn't expecting my lunch to arrive at 11:30. :/
[16:37:19] <ralphm> Sure
[16:37:45] <ralphm> 0. Opening
[16:37:51] <ralphm> Welcome (almost) all!
[16:38:02] <ralphm> Agenda items?
[16:38:02] <simon> 1. AOB
[16:38:10] <ralphm> simon: don't do that
[16:38:38] <simon> No other agenda items.
[16:38:47] <Kev> GSoC?
[16:38:55] <ralphm> Kev: ok
[16:38:57] <simon> Ah yes.
[16:39:04] <Kev> ralphm: Now?
[16:39:10] <ralphm> Kev: not yet
[16:39:28] <ralphm> simon, Laura, anything to report re. website?
[16:39:49] <ralphm> (yes or no is fine at this point)
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[16:40:00] <ralphm> dwd: any items you'd like to add?
[16:40:01] <Laura> No updates as yet. Planning on having something to show next week (not images but the outline plan)
[16:40:06] <simon> ralphm: unfortunatley not.
[16:40:08] <Laura> Sorry
[16:40:13] <ralphm> that's fine
[16:40:16] <dwd> I don't think I've much.
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[16:40:22] <ralphm> ok
[16:40:25] <dwd> FOSDEM finances, I suppose.
[16:40:26] <simon> laura: we really need to get back on that website horse.
[16:40:36] <Laura> Simon: I will drop you a message
[16:40:38] <ralphm> 1. GSOC
[16:40:46] <Kev> This is supershort.
[16:40:48] <ralphm> Kev: you have a report?
[16:40:51] <Kev> The XSF didn't apply for GSoC.
[16:41:18] <Kev> At the time of the application deadline, none of the ideas on the page were complete enough.
[16:41:24] <Kev> That is all.
[16:41:39] <dwd> Kev, Thanks for your efforts here.
[16:41:40] <Laura> Were you disappointed?
[16:42:15] <fippo> i've heard jitsi applied... not sure why they didn't try it under the XSF umbrella for related stuff (@emcho)
[16:42:16] <Kev> Yeah, I think GSoC's a great thing to do. But I don't have time this year to commit to mentoring any Swift projects, so I can't point much finger of blame at anyone else for not having time either.
[16:42:49] <Laura> Maybe one for us to bring to the agenda earlier next yeat? More time to prepare?
[16:42:58] <Kev> And while we could have tried our luck with the page as-is, both Bear and I felt that putting in a sub-par submission was the Wrong Thing to do.
[16:43:12] <Laura> Agree
[16:43:16] <ralphm> fippo: well, jitsi usually applies for themselves
[16:43:19] <ralphm> same for FOSDEM
[16:43:24] <ralphm> also, XMPP is not all they do
[16:43:45] <Kev> Laura: It needs someone to act as chief cat-herder to get the project ideas in shape. In previous years I've done this, and I think when Bear volunteered to be org admin, he hadn't quite twigged the amount of effort it takes to cat-herd behind the scenes.
[16:43:49] <ralphm> Kev: thanks for your efforts, anyway
[16:43:52] <fippo> ralphm: they're coming closer (-:
[16:44:13] <ralphm> fippo: but hey, maybe you can heard projects for 2015?
[16:44:13] <Laura> Got it
[16:44:19] <Kev> So it ended up being a case of seeing if projects would get their ideas in gear themselves, and that didn't happen.
[16:45:03] <Kev> But yes, starting earlier next year, and coming up with some 'Your ideas must look like this as a minimum' would help.
[16:45:12] <Kev> Anyway, I think I'm done for this item.
[16:45:15] <Kev> Thanks.
[16:45:18] <dwd> Kev, Could the XSF make this easier for next year, by ensuring there's a communications channel to open source project leads or something?
[16:45:21] <Laura> Maybe a template or something.
[16:45:32] <Laura> To help identify what we need to support it through
[16:45:36] <Kev> dwd: Yes, this has been me in recent previous years.
[16:45:54] <dwd> Kev, Right, which is not ideal, especially for you.
[16:46:20] <Kev> That is - the org admin (or someone similar) needs to essentially chase down every project that might contribute ideas, and arm-twist them to do so (or not participate), and then chase them down to make sure all the ideas are in order.
[16:46:46] <Kev> I actually like doing the org admin role, I think GSoC's a great thing to support, but ... not this year.
[16:47:05] <dwd> Right, I was wondering if it'd be easier if all the project leads were on a single mailing list or something.
[16:47:31] <Kev> In my experience, it takes direct 1:1 chasing.
[16:48:10] <dwd> OK.
[16:48:10] <Kev> Not that people need chasing because they don't want to participate, but people need reminding. A lot :)
[16:48:30] <ralphm> Kev: what would be a good time to start for 2015?
[16:49:27] <Kev> I think starting in November/December is sensible. If we had a cheat-sheet for writing project ideas (I'm sure we've had this in previous years) available by the end of the year, that should be enough time for people.
[16:49:31] <simon> Do you think it would be good to have some examples of successful project applications so that projects know how much detail they need to go into?
[16:49:38] <Kev> Assuming GSoC2015 happens, which is never a given until it's announced, etc. etc.
[16:49:43] <Laura> That is always a winner
[16:49:54] <Laura> Makes it seem less dautning if you know what 'good' looks like
[16:49:55] <Kev> simon: I think we've had a template in previous years, yes.
[16:50:25] <Kev> Although we learn each year a little bit more about what's good - both from our own, and from the chats that we (by which I mean I) have with the other orgs participating.
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[16:51:02] <simon> Template is one thing, but pointing at a successful project might also be good. Anyway. I think we're all a little overloaded this year and have more than enough to be getting on with, without GSOC too.
[16:51:10] <Kev> Rigt.
[16:51:12] <Kev> Right.
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[16:51:20] <ralphm> Kev: I'd be very surprised if there wouldn't be one in 2015
[16:51:30] <Kev> ralphm: As would I. But it's not a given.
[16:51:47] <ralphm> Sure, but would time spent on it be wasted?
[16:51:59] <Kev> Yes.
[16:52:06] <Kev> But I think it's likely enough to go ahead anyway.
[16:52:18] <dwd> Kev, Were there are project submissions that seemed particularly worthwhile?
[16:52:34] <Kev> dwd: Yes, the BC and IoT ones - they just lacked some of the bits they needed.
[16:53:38] <dwd> OK. I'm wondering if these things would generally benefit the XSF and the XMPP community sufficiently to warrant us putting some money that way. But this is just a thought to float about rather than something we should debate right now.
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[16:54:01] <Kev> I think we could agendaise that for another time when there's longer to discuss :)
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[16:54:24] <dwd> Right.
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[16:54:53] <ralphm> all right then
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[16:55:03] <ralphm> 2. FOSDEM/Summit finances
[16:55:40] <dwd> Just a note that due to travelling and generally being rubbish, I've not sorted out invoicing, and won't have managed to before next week at least.
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[16:56:18] <dwd> ralphm, If you want to accelerate *your* reimbursement, I can give you the revelant details to have Isode pay you direct as we discussed.
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[16:56:47] <ralphm> dwd: sure. I have to scan my receipts, too
[16:56:48] <dwd> ralphm, You'd just need to write an invoice. I'm not going to get a chance before Tuesday at the vert earliest.
[16:56:57] <ralphm> dwd: that's fine
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[16:57:19] <ralphm> 3. AOB
[16:57:34] <ralphm> I wanted to ask about our communications in general
[16:58:01] <ralphm> Once upon a time, we had a Communication Team.
[16:58:08] <simon> Quick reminder to fire up your TLS engines running on Saturday for the second Security Test Day.
[16:58:17] <ralphm> It seems at least some of the functions are done by Simon and Laura now.
[16:58:37] <ralphm> But it is unclear to me who is responsible for our "social networking" outlets.
[16:58:38] <simon> ralphm: yes. I'd like to do more.
[16:58:54] <ralphm> Bear has registered this twitter account last week
[16:58:58] <dwd> ralphm, Yes, this is true. I think it's important to recognise that we have both internal and external communications to consider.
[16:59:15] <simon> ralphm: which one?
[16:59:17] <ralphm> but Neustradamus, who used to be on that team, has access to facebook pages and what not
[16:59:28] <Laura> Agreed. I would really like to know a) history of comms and b) what is happening now?
[16:59:32] <ralphm> apparently he has communicated this with (former) board members at some point
[16:59:33] <simon> Neustradamus is very keen to help btw.
[16:59:44] <ralphm> http://xmpp.org/participate/become-a-member/the-xsf-communication-team/
[16:59:54] <ralphm> This is our description of its functions.
[17:00:00] <dwd> Laura, What's happening now is more or less whatever you and simon are doing.
[17:00:15] <Laura> So not much then.
[17:00:23] <Laura> I want to know more for the website work I am doing
[17:00:32] <Laura> More engaging, less secret chats etc
[17:00:42] <ralphm> I am not interested in the volume of of communications for this discussion, but rather it being a concerted effort
[17:00:53] <Laura> Let me put some thoughts together and share with Board?
[17:01:00] <Laura> For initial discussion
[17:01:20] <ralphm> And, if you need help, you may wish to fire up the above team at some point.
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[17:01:34] <simon> Laura: sounds good.
[17:01:51] <Laura> Leave it with me. Will have this with you on Friday/
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[17:02:05] <ralphm> Laura: cool. Be sure to check out that link I pasted above.
[17:02:10] <dwd> Laura, I'd be perfectly happy if you want to just take it over, to be honest.
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[17:02:38] <ralphm> hi bear
[17:02:42] <Laura> Will do, and Dave my thinking is along those lines
[17:02:49] <ralphm> We're almost done here.
[17:02:51] <dwd> Laura, What I know about proper internal/external communications could be written on a postage stamp. I think you're the domain expert here.
[17:02:54] <bear> hello - sorry for being late
[17:02:59] <ralphm> bear: do you have anything you'd like to discuss?
[17:03:02] <Laura> I can't contribute much technically, but marketing is what I do
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[17:03:15] <Laura> It is my job so I should be!
[17:03:18] <bear> no, just to add that i'm still working on getting a list of tasks that were deferred
[17:03:18] <ralphm> Lance: perfect
[17:03:24] <ralphm> Laura: perfect
[17:03:33] <ralphm> (but you are great, too Lance)
[17:03:56] <ralphm> bear: ack
[17:04:07] <ralphm> Any other any other business?
[17:05:16] <ralphm> 4. Time of Next
+1W
5. Close
Thanks, all!
[17:05:20] *ralphm bangs gavel
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[17:06:01] <Laura> Bye!
[17:06:54] <bear> laura, dwd - if you want to discuss GSoC and how it (doesn't) work I can do that at any time
[17:07:28] <ralphm> bear: what about half an hour ago?
[17:07:53] <bear> half hour ago I was outside tryiing to keep the blocked storm drain from flooding my basement :/
[17:08:00] <Laura> Oh thanks Bear!
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[17:08:31] <ralphm> bear: but you said "any time"
[17:08:36] <bear> I just wanted to point out that a lot of what they mentioned had been done - but it's like what Kev said, it requires a lot of cat herding
[17:08:49] *bear throws something at ralphm
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[17:10:02] <ralphm> bear: I'm sorry. Flooding sucks.
[17:10:26] <bear> no worries, I knew you were joking about "any time"
[17:10:52] <bear> i'm just cold, wet and flustered at almost everything right now
[17:11:00] <ralphm> bear: after initial refusal, some Dutch engineers have finally been taken up on their offer to help out with the floods in SW England
[17:11:12] <dwd> Oh, hey. I realised we've not discussed the IETF thing at all.
[17:11:29] <ralphm> they came in with 30 trucks of pumps
[17:11:36] <bear> you think the UK would gladly accept Dutch engineers given their experience with keeping whole cities from flooding
[17:11:39] <dwd> ralphm, FWIW, there's been artificial drainage there for over a thousand years.
[17:11:45] <ralphm> and had to stop pumping, because they pumped too fast
[17:12:02] <dwd> ralphm, Most of the rivers there are actually artifical drainage channels.
[17:12:24] <dwd> So this IETF thing - where was that Wiki page bear did?
[17:12:28] <ralphm> dwd: yes, but it seems kinda silly to refuse help for weeks
[17:12:53] <bear> http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/IETF_89
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[17:13:53] <Zash> So this meetup thing
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[17:14:30] <Kev> bear: I suspect "The UK" as a whole would gladly do so.
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[17:14:46] <Kev> I don't think it was exactly a country-wide decision not to have help with the flooding.
[17:15:03] <Kev> (Or, indeed, that it was generally known that help had been offered and refused, until much later)
[17:15:24] <bear> ah - US centric thinking - for us it's often the federal government who handled emergency items like that
[17:15:30] <dwd> bear, So my take is that all those people would be funded by their employers, most likely.
[17:15:58] <Kev> bear: Yes, it was the central government that refused the help, as I understand it. Just that I suspect this wasn't a decision that would have been supported by much of the population.
[17:15:59] <bear> yes, so far everyone who has ssigned up seem to be corp backed
[17:16:31] <dwd> bear, Central Government, yes. The whole of the UK, no. Also, I doubt the dutch engineers where offering for free. :-)
[17:16:43] <ralphm> Kev: from what I heard, Cameron himself had refused
[17:16:59] <Kev> As there are people going who have never attended IETF stuff before, and given people need catherding, as previously mentioned, it might be helpful for someone to send out a mail to the list with what needs doing for those attending.
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[17:17:20] <ralphm> dwd: I wonder how costs weigh up against damages
[17:17:24] <Kev> ralphm: Yes, I'm not sure if you're implying that as evidence For it being widely supported or Against it.
[17:17:33] <Kev> dwd: No, I imagine not.
[17:17:38] <bear> kev - i did send a list
[17:17:44] <Kev> Ahhar.
[17:17:44] <bear> err an email to the list
[17:17:46] <ralphm> Kev: I haven't looked for a credible source
[17:17:56] <ralphm> (Channel 4 isn't, as far as I know)
[17:18:16] <Kev> ralphm: I was implying that Cameron and the Will Of The People might not always be completely in step :)
[17:18:33] <ralphm> might always not be <= fixed that for you
[17:20:03] <Kev> bear: If you meant your "IETF 89 and the XMPP WG meeting - are you going?" mail, I was thinking of something a little more prescriptive
[17:20:20] <bear> ah
[17:20:25] <Kev> But I seem to be the only person attending who probably hasn't been before, looking at the list on the wiki, so ignore.
[17:20:30] <Kev> I thought there might be a wider audience.
[17:20:37] <bear> so did I
[17:21:14] <bear> the push back last week, in my understanding of it, was to avoid actively stating that people who wanted to attend could get daypass covered by us
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[17:21:32] <bear> so I avoided any direct wordage
[17:21:38] <dwd> Right, which, I suspect, means that a lot of people will have been put off.
[17:22:00] <dwd> That said, xnyhps - you're coming, right?
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[17:22:36] <xnyhps> Yes. I was just thinking that it's about time I'd get myself a wiki account. :)
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[17:26:25] *dwd sighs
[17:26:45] <dwd> The other WGs that are relevant to us are UTA and DANE, both (I think) on Friday.
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[17:27:51] <dwd> It'd be very useful to get Zash there, IMHO. He's done more implementation of this kind of thing than anyone else in the community, I think.
[17:28:11] <Zash> .
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[17:28:56] <dwd> xnyhps, Are you there for the whole week as well?
[17:29:15] <xnyhps> No, I'm leaving on wednesday.
[17:30:41] <xnyhps> Shame to miss the DANE meeting, but to stay two extra days just to wait for that...
[17:30:56] <dwd> xnyhps, UTA as well, which Alexey pointed out to me.
[17:31:17] <xnyhps> True
[17:31:53] <dwd> To my shame, I hadn't noticed UTA. :-)
[17:32:16] <dwd> I'm assuming perpass is also signficant to us as a community; I've no clue at all when that's meeting.
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[17:40:01] <Kev> UTA?
[17:41:36] <dwd> Kev, Alexey said it was something to do with TLS usage in applications protocols, most specifically email and XMPP.
[17:41:49] <dwd> Kev, Think RFC 6125, basically.
[17:41:57] <Kev> Ah.
[17:43:21] <stpeter> calendaring fail
[17:45:11] <stpeter> will read the logs
[17:45:12] <Zash> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/uta/
[17:45:16] <stpeter> bbiab
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[18:22:17] <dwd> Oh! ISOC members seem to get into the IETF on Tuesday 4th March for free.
[18:25:16] <fippo> and being an ISOC member is a good thing anyway
[18:25:22] <fippo> which reminds me...
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[19:02:08] <stpeter> dwd: really? I hadn't known that - but it's easy to become an ISOC member :-)
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[19:03:56] <dwd> stpeter, Right, I am already. I think this may only be "local chapters". Which I'm technically not in, though I'm in the England one for convenience.
[19:05:22] <stpeter> yes, I'm in my local chapter as well (Colorado)
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[19:09:20] <dwd> Might have to do that one. I qualify for both a WG Chair dot *and* a personal mentor to show me aroound, which is fun.
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[23:15:22] <ralphm> $19b. much.
[23:16:03] <Zash> for a broken xmpp implementation and a gazillion users
[23:16:39] <ralphm> ... that already are on facebook using XMPP
[23:21:40] <intosi> … for which they now have a very nice network graph based on phone numbers.
[23:22:42] <Tobias> yeah...those centralized folks have it easy in that regard :) don't have to care about privacy an all
[23:22:46] <Tobias> must be living the dream
[23:23:04] <ralphm> I don't think they didn't already have that
[23:23:21] <ralphm> Tobias: yeah
[23:23:37] <Zash> :|
[23:23:53] *** Jef shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:23:54] <intosi> They now have a lot more phone numbers. And can probably correlate numbers based on the graphs for users that stubbornly didn't provide their numbers to Facebook yet
[23:24:02] <Zash> ... like me
[23:24:07] <intosi> … and me.
[23:24:19] <ralphm> intosi: i.e. 99% of fb users has already uploaded their addressbook
[23:24:36] <intosi> That's unfortunately very much true.
[23:25:28] <ralphm> so, they gained. um. groupchat?
[23:25:41] <intosi> FB already had that.
[23:25:54] <ralphm> not as persistent rooms
[23:26:46] <intosi> Close enough that end-users don't see the difference.
[23:27:10] <intosi> At least, 99% of all end-users.
[23:27:31] *** Jef shows as "online"
[23:27:51] <ralphm> no, this is actually hard in facebook's app
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[23:58:44] <Santiago26> ralphm: Not sure if WhatsApp is only XMPP without federation, it should partially contain HTTP also.
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