Tuesday, March 04, 2014
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:48:26] <intosi> Ralph: I'm on that list.
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[09:18:46] <Lloyd> This just came up, thought it might be of interest https://secure-resumption.com/
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[09:24:56] <xnyhps> Lloyd: That was also mentioned here yesterday. My expectation is that nothing on XMPP is vulnerable as nothing uses TLS resumption.
[09:25:40] <Lloyd> xnyhps, ahh missed that apologies. Good to hear about the lack of vulnerability though
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[09:31:48] <xnyhps> (Though I don't have much concrete evidence for that…)
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[09:52:51] <Kev> As far as I can tell from the description, this doesn't require the client to not check server certs.
[09:53:12] <Kev> dwd: Are you sure this is the case?
[09:54:28] <Kev> Or, at least, it doesn't require as sever as 'verify nothing', I think.
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[09:56:10] <xnyhps> Kev: The image shows the Attacker replaces the cert with its own cert.
[09:57:54] <Kev> I could easily have misread this. But it seemed to me to be saying that the attacker's website wasn't claiming to be the victim's website.
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[10:04:26] <Kev> I need to work out how I'm going to grab lunch, if I'm going to be travelling across London at lunchtime.
[10:04:54] <Kev> Need to leave the hotel at 11 to get to the Hilton for 12:30, if TFL is to be believed.
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[10:06:08] <xnyhps> I stand corrected, jabber.org lets you do TLS resumption.Hm.
[10:09:48] <Kev> Although not client strong-auth.
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[10:16:32] <dwd> Kev, I think that the Attacker would have to pretend to be some site for which the credentials matched, at least.
[10:17:52] <xnyhps> Attacker has attacker.com, user visits that and it obtains the client-cert from the user and presents it to goodserver.com?
[10:18:06] <Kev> Maybe I should understand the attack, instead of just reading the decription.
[10:18:10] <Kev> +s
[10:18:53] <Kev> I read it as the attacker presenting their own identity.
[10:19:20] <Kev> And then swapping out to a MITMd session to the victim.
[10:20:08] <xnyhps> Yeah, I think you're right.
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[10:24:38] <xnyhps> But of course, when you try to attack the channel-binding part of SCRAM-SHA-1-PLUS, you do need valid credentials of the server.
[10:26:10] <xnyhps> Or the client must have used an identical nodepart and password on your server as on the malicious server.
[10:26:36] <xnyhps> But if you have that, there's nothing you can win by an attack, you have the password. :)
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[10:29:11] <ralphm> hah
[10:30:25] <Kev> I guess I need to start thinking about heading into town.
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[10:32:39] <Kev> Right. See folks at precis, I guess.
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[11:06:39] <dwd> Ah, Kitten have just started discussing the TLS MITM stuff.
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[11:07:15] <Zash> Kitten is now?
[11:07:16] <dwd> Looks like the consensus might be that resumption is a no-no.
[11:07:23] <dwd> This is on the list.
[11:07:32] <Zash> ah
[11:07:54] <dwd> Kitten is Thursday, 1520-1650.
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[12:20:12] <Kev> And that's my first hallway bump-into-someone.
[12:20:25] <Kev> Who else is here? :)
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[12:38:14] <dwd> I'm just about to hop into the car. I should make the IETF hallway for about 6pm or so if I'm lucky; if not I'll see you at the meetup.
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[12:39:05] <Kev> It's entirely possible I won't be here by 6pm, but we'll see. I'm intending crowd-following once precis/xmpp are done.
[12:40:07] <Kev> I have my pretty noob-ribbon on :)
[12:42:17] <dwd> If I'd gone properly, I would have qualified for a noob ribbon, plus a WG Chair dot, which I'd have found amusing.
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[12:44:04] <stpeter> dwd: I don't think you would have been the first
[12:45:00] <stpeter> although it is rare
[12:45:17] <stpeter> for what WG are you a chair?
[12:45:56] <dwd> qresync, now in shutdown-wait.
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[12:50:19] <Kev> I guess I should try to find precis.
[12:50:26] <Kev> Follow the yelllow arrows?
[12:50:52] <stpeter> I need to find that, too, but I'm still in another meeting
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[12:51:13] <stpeter> ah, it's downstairs
[12:53:37] <stpeter> 3 floors down in the east wing, right off the lobby
[12:53:51] <stpeter> this hotel has a strange layout
[12:53:57] <Kev> It's a labyrinth.
[12:53:59] <Kev> Going hunting, BRB.
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[13:57:34] <Zash> Kev: Did you see the video?
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[13:58:09] <Kev> I haven't watched it yet.
[13:58:15] <Kev> I saw that there was one.
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[16:13:48] <fippo> hah, another two tls vulnerabilities. I think the tlswg will have fun
[16:15:36] <fippo> even though those were library issues
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[16:16:46] <ralphm> Zash: was my suggestion clear?
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[16:20:19] <Kev> So, I'm currently sat in the TLS WG session, along with assorted other XMPP people, but I note that this goes on until 6:40. ISTR Lloyd suggesting that we should be at Moz at 6:30.
[16:20:34] <Zash> Hmm
[16:20:50] <xnyhps> I thought 7?
[16:20:57] <ralphm> Kev: ubber can't do time travel. Disappointing
[16:21:33] <Kev> Upon arrival Surevine will have pizza and beer waiting (around 6:30pm). The latest schedule is posted up on http://lanyrd.com/2014/xmppuk/.
[16:22:20] <xnyhps> Oh, meetup had 7.
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[16:26:34] <stpeter> do we need to sign up for Uber in order to catch a ride
[16:28:07] <xnyhps> I think you need to give them your credit card number.
[16:29:06] <Kev> I would be inclined to just grab the tube, personally, but I have an Oyster card.
[16:29:40] <Zash> I wanna see the series of tubes :)
[16:29:41] <stpeter> http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/IETF_89 says "We're planning on holding the XMPP meetup at MozSpace at 101 St. Martin's Lane, starting at 7pm."
[16:29:56] <stpeter> I'd be happy with the tube
[16:30:02] <Zash> ralphm: Your suggestion was?
[16:30:05] <xnyhps> I was planning to take the tube, too.
[16:30:14] <Kev> It's 20mins by tube, along Bakerloo, I believe.
[16:30:39] <Kev> https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Hilton+London+Metropole,+225+Edgware+Rd,+London+W2+1JU,+UK/51%C2%B030'37.4%22N+0%C2%B007'37.4%22W/@51.5201367,-0.1530664,13z/data=!4m12!4m11!1m5!1m1!1s0x48761ab4122b2d83:0xfdfeed0b864cbfb0!2m2!1d-0.1694932!2d51.5191439!1m3!2m2!1d-0.1270556!2d51.5103889!3e3

What a lovely URI.
[16:31:17] <ralphm> Zash: webrtc data channels
[16:32:01] <Zash> ralphm: Because that's likely to be implemented by clients anyways?
[16:32:26] <stpeter> ralphm: XTLS (Dirk Meyer's work) could offer a webrtc data channel as one of the transport options
[16:32:27] <ralphm> Zash: yes, that's my thinking
[16:32:48] <Zash> stpeter: Which is why it sounded like XTLS to me
[16:33:02] *stpeter nods to Zash
[16:33:19] <ralphm> stpeter: yes, but I want to do away with IBB entirely
[16:33:34] <Zash> ralphm: Does XTLS say you have to use IBB?
[16:33:42] <stpeter> ralphm: so XTLS but MUST NOT offer IBB?
[16:34:31] <Zash> I don't see the need, really. Jingle lets you negotiate transport.
[16:35:00] <Zash> But what are the security bits you want to solve?
[16:35:05] <ralphm> Zash: well, sure, but my personal opinion is that IBB is horrible and don't want to have people need to implement it
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[16:35:41] <stpeter> webrtc data channels seem convenient, for sure
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[16:35:51] <ralphm> Zash: I think having out-of-band XML Streams for e2e are easier to implement
[16:36:29] <Ge0rG> I like IBB because it allows to leverage a trusted server for end-to-end file exchange
[16:37:08] <ralphm> Ge0rG: I don't see how that is better than negotiating an out-of-band connection with the server, over Jingle.
[16:37:10] <Ge0rG> besides, aren't XTLS and WebRTC data channels solving the same problem?
[16:37:22] <stpeter> Ge0rG: no
[16:37:51] <stpeter> Ge0rG: XTLS is end-to-end encryption - data channels would be one end-to-end transport over which we could negotiate end-to-end TLS
[16:38:42] <Zash> ralphm: Having IBB be MTI for E2E does indeed seem problematic. I think someone mentioned that you'd basically have to open a loopback connection to yourself, tunnel it over IBB and then starttls on that
[16:39:22] <Zash> Unless there are better tls libs that I've not seen
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[16:40:24] <Ge0rG> stpeter: but webrtc has dtls for end-to-end encryption, righT?
[16:40:44] <ralphm> stpeter: I'm not suggesting using any of webrtc per se, just the same p2p transport for the actual bits, with sctp/rtp/dtls and all that, as you would negotiate webrtc data channels
[16:40:45] <fippo> stpeter: we do negotiate end-to-end (d)tls with webrtc data channels. but the exchange of fingerprints is not protected.
[16:42:11] <xnyhps> Zash: Wat? Aren't most TLS libraries separated from network libraries?
[16:42:36] <Zash> xnyhps: Not really looked further than LuaSec
[16:42:51] <stpeter> ralphm: ah, thanks for the clarification
[16:43:10] <ralphm> XTLS says:
[16:43:13] <ralphm> More complex scenarios are theoretically supported (e.g., encrypted
file transfer using SOCKS5 bytestreams and encrypted voice chat using
DTLS-SRTP) but have not yet been fully defined.

XTLS theoretically can be used to establish a TLS-encrypted streaming
transport or a DTLS-encrypted datagram transport, but integration
with DTLS [DTLS] has not yet been prototyped so use with streaming
transports is the more stable scenario.
[16:43:46] <ralphm> So I'm saying we go the next step and actually prototype that thing mentioned, with the same tech as used for webrtc data channels.
[16:44:05] <ralphm> I think this makes people's live slightly better and allows us to piggyback on that work.
[16:45:40] <Ge0rG> how is dtls security handled in webrtc?
[16:46:23] <Zash> Ge0rG: AFAIK, you send a fingerprint through the SDP blob via your whatever server.
[16:46:39] <fippo> ge0rg: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4572#section-6
[16:47:43] <ralphm> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5764 has a bunch of text on that, too
[16:48:26] <Ge0rG> so how is that solving a different problem from xtls?
[16:48:48] <ralphm> Zash: I don't think it depends on SDP per se, but we might have to do a jingle equivalent.
[16:49:21] <ralphm> Ge0rG: it solves the same problems, but without IBB and with a protocol that people will implement in other places (WebRTC)
[16:49:29] <ralphm> like, say, browsers
[16:49:48] <stpeter> BTW, XTLS = http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-meyer-xmpp-e2e-encryption-02.txt
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[16:50:57] <ralphm> in fact, my feeling is that we should just take the IBB guts out of draft-meyer-xmpp-e2e-encryption and replace it with dtls-rtp
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[16:51:17] <ralphm> stpeter: ah, thanks for that link, of course
[16:51:36] <stpeter> ralphm: I've always rather liked the general approach of XTLS
[16:51:52] <Zash> stpeter, +1
[16:52:45] <stpeter> it would be fairly straightforward for us to take draft-meyer-xmpp-e2e-encryption-02, change it around, and submit a revised I-D
[16:53:18] <stpeter> call it draft-meijer-* instead of draft-meyer-* ;-)
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[16:54:56] <ralphm> stpeter: no confusion there, I'm sure
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[16:55:09] <stpeter> heh
[16:55:24] <Zash> But, do we want something that'll work with Carbons?
[16:56:15] <fippo> ralphm: xep 0320 is the jingle equivalent of that. even though it was actually pretty much limited to being an sdp mapping
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[16:56:42] <fippo> ralphm: i'd like to see what ekr has in mind wrt webrtc + identity providers before going further in any direction
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[16:56:53] <ralphm> fippo: right
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[16:57:23] <Kev> Zash: I want something that works with carbons and with MAM.
[16:57:27] <ralphm> stpeter: I do want to retain the generic nature of that draft, but without any suggestion of doing ibb
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[16:57:50] <Kev> So anything that goes out of band has some unfortunate properties there.
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[16:59:35] <stpeter> +1 to Kev on Carbons and MAM
[16:59:41] <stpeter> so many requirements :-)
[16:59:44] <ralphm> Kev: and how does draft-miller address this?
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[17:00:10] <Kev> That's what I'm trying to work out right now (reading it at the moment), before chatting with Matt tonight.
[17:00:15] <stpeter> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xmpp-e2e-requirements-01.txt needs to be revisited
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[17:01:01] <ralphm> Kev: my feeling is that it doesn't, but I might be missing something
[17:02:16] <m&m> carbons is supported, but possibly not MAM
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[17:02:34] <intosi> Hello, Nelsons Column.
[17:02:51] *m&m is taking notes for tls wg
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[17:03:31] *stpeter notes that WG notes really only need to be action items and I haven't heard many of those here
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[17:06:05] <m&m> but note that supporting offline makes it hard (maybe impossible) to also support PFS
[17:06:21] <Zash> xnyhps, Kev, when do we need to leave?
[17:06:58] <m&m> immediately after tls-wg ends (-:
[17:07:10] <Kev> Depends if we want to get there for 18:30 or 19:00.
[17:07:11] <intosi> At what time can I invade Moz Space?
[17:07:29] <stpeter> the offline case makes life so much more complicated
[17:07:31] <Kev> If we want to get there at 18:30, when I think it 'opens' (@Edwin), we should leave here at 18:00, give or take.
[17:07:32] <m&m> you probably want to leave here @ 18:00 to be there by 18:30
[17:07:59] <Zash> My GMT+1 clock makes this very confusing.
[17:08:09] <Kev> Above times are Zulu.
[17:08:32] <ralphm> m&m: indeed. e2e might be conceptually incompatible with mam
[17:08:33] <xnyhps> Zash: If we want to be there on time, we need to leave 54 minutes from now.
[17:08:49] <ralphm> carbons is doable with oob, too
[17:08:54] <Kev> ralphm: I don't believe that to be true. It simply changes the tradeoffs.
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[17:09:18] <ralphm> Kev: I think we agree
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[17:09:39] <m&m> I think the difference is whether carbons is managed by the server, or managed by the client
[17:09:53] <Kev> In the simple case, anything gpg-based can be compatible with carbons and MAM, given ubiquitous private keys.
[17:10:08] <Kev> (Not that I'm pushing we use gpg as our approach)
[17:10:27] <stpeter> so much is possible, given ubiquitous private keys :-)
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[17:10:55] <m&m> just not PFS d-:
[17:11:00] <Kev> Right.
[17:11:29] <Zash> To FS or not to FS.
[17:11:40] <stpeter> there is no P
[17:11:41] <Tobias> maybe we don't need the P :)
[17:11:45] <stpeter> heh
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[17:12:50] <stpeter> "perfection is not an option"
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[17:12:54] <m&m> Pretty-good Forward Secrecy (PgFS) d-:
[17:13:04] <intosi> Perfection is the opposite of delivered.
[17:13:13] <Zash> m&m, :D
[17:13:33] <m&m> Permissible Forward Secrecy
[17:13:45] <xnyhps> Pretty Good Forward Secrecy?
[17:15:46] <intosi> Poorly Guarded Privacy.
[17:15:53] <Zash> Hah
[17:16:15] <m&m> heh
[17:16:37] <ralphm> m&m: sure with xtls you'd need clients to figure out the multiplex
[17:16:45] <Zash> Yeah
[17:17:08] <Zash> You could also do MAM between your own resources
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[17:21:50] <Kev> Over 174"
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[17:22:30] <Kev> Because moving all of XMPP to the client is our favourite direction.
[17:22:49] <Zash> Let's build Skype with angle brackets!
[17:23:03] <Zash> We just need a single master authentication server
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[17:25:48] <fippo> zash: let's use gmail.com
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[17:25:56] <m&m> hotmail.com
[17:26:00] <Zash> facebook.com!
[17:26:08] <m&m> IM is over-rated, we should go back to email!!
[17:26:25] <m&m> and use more ASN.1
[17:26:42] <SM> m&m, you do use email :-)
[17:26:54] <m&m> far too much
[17:27:13] <stpeter> :)
[17:27:19] <fippo> m&m: let's make ma bell proud by putting more intelligence into the network again!
[17:27:48] <SM> You folks will be getting veggie pizzas if you go on
[17:28:04] <Zash> MattJ will be pleased
[17:28:10] <m&m> XMPP over DTMF
[17:28:56] <intosi> One combination is a nibble, not sure what data rate you can achieve.
[17:28:59] <Kev> Pizza has bread in it, it can't be veggie.
[17:29:26] <intosi> Symbol rate, I mean.
[17:29:35] <SM> Kev, I thought that you were in for getting everyone to try that.
[17:30:29] <Kev> SM: There is a long-running gag with letting MattJ know that various foods (like bread) are meats.
[17:30:38] <SM> Oh:)
[17:30:46] <m&m> haha
[17:31:01] <Zash> Those poor Bread animals.
[17:31:11] <intosi> And veggies are meat anyway, the poor greens just don't know it yet.
[17:31:23] <Zash> Carrots are people too!
[17:31:45] <intosi> That's Captain Carrot for you.
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[17:46:50] <Kev> So, yes. We should aim to leave in about 15mins if we want to get to Moz for 18:30Z.
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[17:53:19] <Kev> Is anyone intending leaving the session 40mins early to get to Moz, or is everyone staying to the bitter end?
[17:53:42] <stpeter> unfortunately m&m needs to stick around because he's taking notes
[17:54:28] <stpeter> I'd be game to leave, but I don't want to abandon Matt
[17:55:04] <Zash> We do have a backup Matt tho ;)
[17:55:50] <m&m> ouch
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[17:56:03] <stpeter> heh
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[17:58:06] <Kev> I don't really want to abandon anyone, but at the same time I'd like to get over to Moz and start bashing MattJ over the head to update MAM :)
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[17:58:49] <Kev> So I'm inclined to leave now and apologise to m&m later :)
[17:59:30] <Zash> I'm hungry.
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[18:00:14] <Kev> Zash: So you're leaving?
[18:00:26] <Zash> I'm follwing MattJ
[18:00:34] <Kev> Matt is following you.
[18:00:36] <Kev> You're both useless.
[18:00:52] <Zash> xnyhps: Decide who's leading please.
[18:01:01] <Kev> I'm going to head to Moz now. Others can leave or not.
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[18:01:19] <Zash> But then either MattJ or I have to get up...
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[18:07:03] <stpeter> I hope m&m and I can figure out how to get to MozSpace :-)
[18:07:43] <intosi> Just follow the scent of Pizza.
[18:07:52] <intosi> And remember the address, that usually helps, too ;)
[18:08:16] <m&m> I've got a map cached on my phone (-:
[18:08:47] <intosi> Should do the trick.
[18:08:58] <intosi> Are you using Ubbers?
[18:09:07] <m&m> no, Underground
[18:09:13] <stpeter> https://wiki.mozilla.org/London might help
[18:09:54] <intosi> When lost, just go to Trafalgar Square and look at one of the maps there.
[18:10:05] <intosi> The square is big and kinda hard to miss ;)
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[23:34:53] <Neustradamus> I have a problem with http://planet.jabber.org/ same for you?
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