-
stpeter
Tobias: sigh indeed
-
Simon
Tobias: I've emailed the admin a few times. Mentioned the security issues and the manifesto etc etc. It seems like their XMPP services is essentially dead / being spun down.
-
Tobias
Simon, ah..sad to hear
-
Simon
Well with security like that, perhaps a benefit :)
-
Simon
I did notice that, aside from the big fat "F" on their report, they do require a client certificate from s2s peers.
-
Simon
"The server requires incoming s2s connections to present a peer certificate."
-
Tobias
well..i needed to tell my prosody to not try TLS on s2s to them so it works at all
-
fippo
simon: I emailed the admin in 2007 and told him that using a single gmx.net cert for all their domains is not going to work
-
Tobias
ever got a reply on those mails
-
Alex
their XMPP service is a long never ending story ;-)
-
fippo
tobias: yeah... "can i use self-signed ones???"
-
Tobias
:)
-
Tobias
wonder what they do for SMTP/IMAP...the same don't care attitude?
-
Alex
I was in contact with some of thier developers before, but most of the developers did not work for a long time there
-
Alex
which means I have no contacts anymore ;-)
-
fippo
the one i knew worked there for quite a long time... and after he left the position was vacant for at least a year
- fippo shrugs
-
dwd
ralphm has sent apologies for the Board meeting this PM.
-
intosi
What, he cannot attend while he's on holiday?
-
dwd
intosi, Apparently not.
-
intosi
Here I was thinking he has omni-presence.
-
fippo
http://www.nojitter.com/post/240166407/the-web-scale-dilemma-of-webrtc -- oh yeah, if we only had servers that are able to deal with long-term idle connections or longpolling...
-
Lloyd
fippo, please comment, will upvote :)
-
dwd
fippo, If you aren't going to, then I will.
-
dwd
Actually, no, I can't figure out something sensible that sounds reasoned and sane.
-
m&m
dwd: maybe pretend you're talking to PHB?
-
fippo
m&m: maybe you can get hildjj to comment :-)
-
dwd
m&m, PHB out-Klingonned me.
-
fippo
dwd: my comment would be that this kind of stuff (webchats) has been solved back in '95 -- before xmpp existed even.
-
Zash
95?
-
Zash
Oh, *web*chats.
-
Simon
Is it worth some XMPP folk attending Mozillas presence meeting? (https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/wg-presence/2014-March/000202.html)
-
dwd
Simon, Seems like it.
-
Simon
Do we have any <presence> experts here?
-
dwd
Simon, One or two.
-
dwd
Meeting in ~5?
-
Simon
That's my plan at least.
-
bear
I wasn't sure what items to pull from the agenda working list to post here
-
m&m
I have business for this group
-
bear
that sounds ominous
-
m&m
http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/membership-applications.html
-
dwd
Ah, indeed.
-
dwd
Morning bear.
- m&m snaps the whip
-
bear
morning sir
-
bear
did you see my direct message?
-
Laura
Just a note before the meeting starts, I am only available for the first 10 minutes (sincere apologies)
-
dwd
Laura, Our meetings hardly ever go beyond 10 minutes.
-
Laura
Nice try
-
m&m
dwd: Now you've jinxed
-
m&m
it
-
bear
:)
-
dwd
We can kick off now, anyway.
-
dwd
ralphm sent apologies to me, he's in Tenerife.
-
stpeter
howdy
-
intosi
A board meeting that doesn't go beyond 10 minutes? It cannot be done!
-
Simon
Hi.
-
intosi
(did that unjinx it?)
-
dwd
intosi, We have special Board-length minutes.
-
intosi
dwd: which XEP is that?
-
bear
who has the agenda for today?
-
Laura
trello!
-
dwd
bear, Just grab stuff off of the Trello.
-
bear
i'm back from my not-on-purpose-damn-depression-off-the-rails "event"
-
Simon
Since Laura needs to jet off early, let's start with the web stuff.
-
stpeter
+1
-
dwd
(That and Marketing)
-
Simon
https://trello.com/b/ml9e82sE/xmpp-org-website for reference
-
bear
agenda: Marketing Team, Sponsors Team, Website, WhatsApp sponsor, DNSSEC, XSF/IETF89 bursury ?✎ -
Laura
Someone added @xmpp?
-
bear
agenda: Marketing Team, Sponsors Team, Website, WhatsApp sponsor, DNSSEC, XSF/IETF89 bursury, @xmpp update, ? ? ✏
-
Simon
yeah - that's me. I'll give a quick update: I reached out to the owner of @xmpp and asked if we could take it over.
-
Laura
Oh, and?
-
Simon
he's agreed and is just in the proces of moving his followers off there and will then find a way to transfer it to us.
-
Laura
Fantastic!
-
Laura
Well done
-
Simon
yeah - I was quite chuffed myself :)
-
stpeter
nice
-
Simon
I'll follow up with more details when it's done.
-
stpeter
great
-
stpeter
thanks, Simon
-
bear
great job
-
bear
next item
-
stpeter
BTW we had a marketing team once upon a time
-
bear
website update - laura? simone?
-
Simon
At which point I think we should talk about the marketing team who could potentially look after things like this.
-
stpeter
would love to get the website pushed forward
-
Simon
Simone is out, but I'll fill in for her :)
-
stpeter
happy to help with that
-
bear
doh!
-
stpeter
heehee
-
m&m
hehe
-
Laura
Marketing team - might come out of the website work. At laset the start of it
-
Simon
So please look at the trello page here https://trello.com/b/ml9e82sE/xmpp-org-website
-
Simon
we're going through and signing up volunteers for different pages and sections.
-
Laura
I will support Simon here - its the tech parts that we need the most help with
-
Simon
Laura: +1
-
Simon
A lot of the thinking for the website will play into how we structure and focus a future marketing team
-
bear
do we have markdown pages to work with yet?
-
Laura
The marketing bumpf I am working on (obviously happy to have helpers but will encourage people to think of Simon first)
-
bear
as soon as we get some pages for each of the major structure items I can get a staging site built
-
Laura
Bear: coming. Identifying pages was step 1. We need to site map then push on with writing (which has already started)
-
Laura
Simon, shall we aim to have a site map for bear by next Weds?
-
Simon
Yeah - so Bear and Lloyd are the next ports of call on the tech side. Bear: can you add lloyd watkin and myself as github project admins for the website so that we can get a build system up and running.
-
bear
even if they are placeholders - they just help me with the structure
-
bear
sure can
-
Simon
Laura: that sounds good. And on the tech side, I'd like a skeleton building at new.xmpp.org that we can later fill with content (from pull requests) and pivot into production when everything is ready.
-
Simon
I'll update the agenda with todos :)
-
Laura
Great. I will add a site map to "doing"
-
bear
that is my goal - to have github -> script -> new.xmpp.org
-
stpeter
sounds ideal
-
stpeter
are we in github yet?
-
Laura
10 mins is up - anything urgent for me?
-
Laura
I will be available all day tomorrow, fyi
-
Simon
We have a skeleton with Middleman - but need to change it and add some TravisCI build-magic.
-
stpeter
Laura: thanks for your 10 minutes, very helpful and productive
- Simon waves goodbye
-
Laura
I will review trello Boards tomorrow
-
bear
I will work on getting a simpler script in place that generates pages - I have just gone thru this for 3 other sites so I have a very tight toolset on hand to do it
-
stpeter
bear: cool
-
Simon
Bear - I already have this working on Pelican to generate the static pages. Let's talk after and bash through the details.
-
bear
k
-
bear
next item? teams?
-
Simon
so shall we move onto the next topic - I think we are done with web and marketing stuff.
-
stpeter
yep
-
Simon
This is something I raised.
-
Simon
Thinking that a) we have lots of members b) lots of tasks that we can't always do.
-
Simon
I was wondering if it would make sense to have more teams - eg a sponsorship team that could potentially reach out to more companies using XMPP eg FB/whatsapp.
-
Simon
does anyone have any thoughts on this?
-
dwd
Well, we're not actually in desperate need of money.
-
dwd
What we really need from sponsors is their names.
-
bear
I'm not sure if we need a team specifically - but yes, part of the marketing team could be to remind members on a regular basis to shake the bushes for company ideas/names
-
stpeter
oh and BTW more teams are on the way - liaisons to other standards groups, for instance
-
Simon
And I'm not suggesting that we are even in a position to reward the current sponsors (we still have google up) , but with the new website, we might have more of a chance to get them recognised.
-
Simon
+1 for more groups.
-
stpeter
the editor team is doing well
-
bear
(side note - I tried for 30 minutes to remove google from the site the other week - sheesh was that hard)
-
dwd
When Google very publicly trashed us, it really harmed our credibility; similarly large names would help restore that damage, but I don't think this is a case of charging around looking for sponsors.
-
Simon
I'm going to add group documentation to the new website list - help someone reaching out to the XSF to reach the right group/mailinglist/person
-
bear
+1
-
stpeter
Simon: as in case studies and the like?
-
bear
seems we may need to revisit this - we have hit a lull in the thought stream
-
dwd
Ah, and I'm reminded of somethign else relating to sponsors.
-
Simon
We have case studies already - https://trello.com/c/y2Cdo1oQ/16-xsf-and-working-groups
-
bear
since we are on the sponsor topic - I see listed WhatsApp on the agenda item list - are they a new sponsor?
-
dwd
I'd like to consider listing, as sponsors, the companies who provide the XSF with significant human resource. I'm not thinking in terms of Council or Board, but things like the Iteam and Officers.
-
dwd
bear, No, I think Simon(e) wants to reach out to them.
-
bear
ah - ok - +1 to him reaching out
-
Simon
Peter: we have quite a few whitepapers already signed up (delivery will be another story)
-
stpeter
Simon: true
-
Simon
ok that's my groups team/bit done
-
Simon
no next steps right now from me.
-
stpeter
Simon: I had bunches of whitepapers back in the JINC days and could reproduce/update a few of them (e.g., one on security would be good)
-
m&m
stpeter: +1
-
stpeter
dwd: that becomes messy, I think, but I also think that there are ways we can make those associations more prominent
- Simon signs up StPeter before he has a chance to reconsider.
-
Simon
https://trello.com/c/upjP6ei5/42-security
-
dwd
stpeter, Yes, it's tricky, I agree. But I think we get the value from those companies and I'd like to ensure it's made visible, so they get value back.
-
Simon
+1 on giving value back.
-
bear
I can see making sure that "soft" sponsors are listed in event updates and blog posts as helping to solve that
-
bear
I would like to keep the sponsor sidebar be the place for sponsors
-
dwd
So in particular, I think &Yet, for providing our Executive Director, and Isode, for providing both Kevin Smith and Edwin Mons for the iteam. Probably Jonathan Siegle's employer which I can't even remember off the top of my head.
-
Simon
this is the current thinking https://trello.com/c/8m6sizgO/36-sponsors
-
Simon
perhaps it's best if we follow up on there with a discussion on how this actually fits into the content.
-
Simon
/working website.
-
dwd
Simon, Be wary - we're "selling" sponsorships now on the existing levels.
-
stpeter
Jonathan works for Pennsylvania State University
-
stpeter
I think it would be good to have a discussion about this on the members list
-
stpeter
and that might encourage other members to get more involved, I suppose
-
Simon
I don't think anyone would call it selling but there does need to be some recognition of a sponsor. And I think we actually think the XSF benefits from having a sponsor explain how they use XMPP in their project.
-
bear
agreed - if we are thinking of adding a new sponsor type (or tweaking exsting ones)
-
dwd
I'd be happy to kick one off. For the record, I'm still a (very minor) shareholder in Isode, which I'll make clear on the list as well.
-
Simon
Perhaps our treasurer could kick things off :)
-
stpeter
heh
-
bear
dave - that would be great
-
Kev
FWIW, I think it'd be better to reference companies providing people-power in some oblique way.
-
Kev
Rather than a sponsor level.
-
m&m
yeah
-
stpeter
nod
-
Simon
It's already referenced on the wiki too.
-
Kev
(Which I think is what you're suggesting, and so I think I'm agreeing with)
-
bear
maybe a "Friends of XSF" type posting every month
-
Simon
Can we follow this up on the mailing list and try to keep this board meeting moving.
-
bear
+1
-
stpeter
and personally I don't want to be described as "Executive Director Peter Saint-Andre of &yet" all the time :-)
-
bear
next item then?
-
stpeter
yep
-
Simon
dwd: perhaps useful for your post: http://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/
-
Simon
Please
-
bear
DNSSEC? who has info on this?
-
bear
(the agenda item, not the tech itself)
-
Simon
yeah - that was something posted by me. I heard we had the grant offer but we've never really had a proper discussion about how / or what we do with it.
-
Simon
Perhaps this is something for the mailing list too?
-
Simon
(happy to start a thread there)
-
bear
do we know who has the information or is the source of this nugget?
-
Simon
Peter - are there any details that you could share?
-
Simon
/should I follow up with Dan York?
-
stpeter
Simon: we'd need to create a proposal for work specifically on this topic
-
Simon
ok
-
stpeter
so I think the next step is for us to outline a proposal (a page or two would be fine)
-
stpeter
we can work on that via wiki or whatever
-
Simon
that's good for me - I'll take this to the members mailing list tomorrow and start getting ideas and input. (perhaps start a wiki page too then)
-
stpeter
we need to figure out exactly what we'd do here - code bounties, interop testing, specs, etc.
-
dwd
What would be the goal, though? Moar DNSSEC?
-
stpeter
dwd: more for sure
-
stpeter
and tested and deployed
-
stpeter
encouraged by XSF and the IM Observatory etc.
-
Simon
ok. Leave this will me and I'll get the discussion going.
-
bear
next item is IETF89 bursury scheme
-
Simon
What's that?
-
stpeter
oh that and FOSDEM reimbursements - do we still owe anyone funds for that?
-
dwd
As in, Kim Alvefur went to IETF89.
-
bear
this is a dwd item
-
dwd
stpeter, Yes. I'll get the invoicing done next week.
-
dwd
We agreed on the list we'd get Kim some money back for this; can I get a vote out to reimburse him for the IETF fee itself?
-
bear
so we need to get receipts from Kim so wwe can cut a check?
-
bear
+1 to reimbursing him
-
stpeter
I (using my &yet credit card) paid the hotel for both Thijs and Kim
-
Simon
Do we have quorum for votes? (+1 though)
-
dwd
We just have quorum. I'm +1.
-
stpeter
I also paid the IETF day pass for Matthew
-
dwd
Wild?
-
bear
ok, so XSF needs to pay peter back
-
Simon
Who is taking the follow up action on this?
-
stpeter
I don't know how Thijs and Kim paid for their IETF fees (although are they both students? at least Thijs is)
-
stpeter
yes, Matthew Wild
-
xnyhps
I paid for a student ticket in cash (£90). I don't think Zash had a student ticket.
-
dwd
stpeter, Kim bought his; credit-card I assume. So we should reimburse him direct; we'll presumably need a receipt.
-
stpeter
yes
-
bear
we should get them to send receipts and then report what the amount being reimbursed is
-
Simon
sounds logical.
-
bear
i'll take point on that
-
dwd
OK - Zash - receipts!
-
stpeter
sure
-
dwd
Perfect.
-
bear
and will poke peter to make sure he pays himself
-
bear
xnyhps - can you email me a copy of any receipts you have so we can get this done (Zash also)
-
bear
and with that I think we are done - unless someone has an AOB ?
-
xnyhps
Yes, I'll do that.
-
dwd
AOB:
-
m&m
AOB from the Editor team
-
dwd
Can Board folk look at that email I've forwarded and have a think on how to proceed?
-
Simon
Well we have two more items on the list…
-
Simon
Clayster email? and April!
-
Simon
1
-
bear
the email one is what dave is refering to - that needs to be put onto next weeks agenda IMO
-
Simon
happy to bump that forward (and look at it)
-
dwd
Right; I should get back to him with a holding thing.
-
Simon
ok
-
bear
dave - please do - let him know that we need to chew on it a bit
-
Simon
Involves the council too: any plans for April 1 post?
-
dwd
But in any case, by next week I'll be up to date with invoicing, and we should have two new Silver sponsors.
-
Simon
Good work dwd
-
dwd
Simon, You'd need to discuss with the Editors.
-
m&m
we discussed that very topic yesterday
-
dwd
Which reminds me - m&m had something for the agenda...
-
m&m
I did, but I'm not sure where y'all are in the agenda (-:
-
Simon
we're done and waiting for you.
-
Simon
:)
-
bear
sounds like april 1 item needs to be taken to the editors mailing list
-
bear
and brought up again next week
-
Simon
bear - will do.
-
bear
m&m - your up
-
m&m
There is a proposed XEP for the Board to consider
-
m&m
http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/membership-applications.html
-
dwd
Indeed. Happy to be pushed back with "Not enough discussion on the list", but if so, we need to stir up some discussion.
-
dwd
(I am, obviously, +1)
-
bear
i'm +1 on this - the item on the mailing list has been present for months - anyone with any objections should have spoken up by now IMO
-
Simon
I guess I'd like to know What's the problem being solved?
-
m&m
I'll note it still starts with a state of experimental, so in theory it can be accepted and further refined before moving to Active
-
dwd
Simon, Florian's last application.
-
Zash
Sorry, I was away, you want receipts?
-
Simon
What was the issue there?
-
dwd
Simon, Which was fine because it was Florian, but if someone else did it it'd be more irritating.
-
dwd
Simon, His entire application was, from memory, "Nobody will read this".
-
bear
zash - please, a copy of what you had for ietf89 expenses so we can get you a check
-
dwd
http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Florian_Jensen_Application_2013
-
dwd
SLightly longer, it turns out.
-
Simon
Reading this it looks like corporations can apply to be XSF members. Is that the case?
-
bear
IIRC it is in the bylaws
-
dwd
Yes. According to the by-laws they can; it's explicitly included there.
-
Kev
dwd: Editted by someone other than the applicant, in fact, which is Not Good.
-
dwd
Kev, Oh, the second line?
-
Kev
-t
-
Kev
Yes.
-
dwd
Kev, Yes, that's not good either. (And explicitly ruled illegal by the XEP in submission)
-
bear
what is the boards vote on this?
-
bear
i'm +1 for it
-
dwd
I'm also +1.
-
Simon
I'm inclined to say XEPs are generally for specifications and instructions on membership should come from the bylawas and a good webpage/wiki form that we ask applicants to fill out. This seems like extra scaffolding to make up for a rather freeform application process. Has anyone looked into mediawik forms that woudl capture the right info?
-
m&m
you have a fortnight to either indicate objections (I believe on the standards@ list, but it might be more appropriate for members@) or to state you have no objections
-
stpeter
wow I had not remembered that corporations, organizations, or other entities could apply for membership
-
dwd
Simon, The by-laws state that the Board has to formally approve a "Form of Membership".
-
dwd
Simon, It's possible a Board has done so before, but I couldn't find a record. It seemed to me that a XEP was the best way of preserving that record.
-
stpeter
IMHO it would be helpful to provide a suggested form of membership application
-
dwd
stpeter, Yeah, surprised me when I spotted.
-
stpeter
dwd: there is no such "Form of Membership"
-
stpeter
yet
-
bear
how to implement this is orthagonal to it being a XEP - XEP's are how we formalize our process
-
m&m
and there are other Procedural XEPs that are not technical in nature
-
dwd
stpeter, Right, the XEP describes such a form.
-
dwd
stpeter, It's not a form as in a thing with boxes, I agree; I'm not sure I'd want such a thing anyway.
-
bear
again, implementation can be discussed after we get the XEP to show what to implement
-
stpeter
I'm not a big fan of process over meaning, mind you :-)
-
bear
that's why i'm trying to uncouple the process discussion from this discussion of the XEP :)
-
Simon
Can we close the meeting and push this to the list please?
-
bear
and it appears that we should post an email to the board list so that others can be prepared to vote next week
-
stpeter
WFM
-
m&m
noted
- stpeter posts in the relevant thread on the members@ list
-
bear
i'll email the board and let tehm know about the xep to be voted on
-
Kev
Why the board list?
-
Kev
This doesn't seem to need to be done in private.
-
bear
it's not to discuss - just to let them know abot the item
-
bear
I was going to point to the thread for the discussion
-
Simon
I thought we were going to discuss this more on the list.
-
Simon
ok
-
Simon
good.
-
bear
my only reason to email board@ was to send a simple focused email to them to make it visible
-
Simon
imho members is more appropriate.
-
bear
do we have any other AOB items?
-
m&m
I could note what the Editor team discussed for a Humorous XEP
-
m&m
which is to say, there are ideas but a distinct lack of energy to write one
-
dwd
m&m, Not here.
-
Simon
m&m: yes please :)
-
intosi
m&m: don't want to know until it is released.
-
m&m
dwd: I'm not going into more detail than that
-
dwd
Wouldn't want to ruin the surprise.
-
m&m
we haven't published a Humorous XEP since 2011
-
bear
ok, so having no more AOB items... i move to end the meeting. Same time next week for next meeting?
- bear bangs the gavel and thanks everyone for their time
-
bear
ok, email sent to board pointing them to members@ for xep listing
-
Zash
So, where to send what receipts?
-
bear
zash - to me please bear@bear.im
-
bear
bah - what is lloyd's email - I have too many lloyd's in my mail client
-
Kev
BTW, I'm interested. Why particularly not Board or Council is this "Friends of the XSF" thing?
-
Kev
The amount of time I spend on Council stuff far outweights the amount of time I spend (or anyone, I think) on iteam stuff.
-
Simon
what are you referencing Kev?
-
Kev
"As you're probably aware, there's a couple of companies which provide the XSF with actual warm bodies, filling roles that take actual time. I'm not thinking about Board and Council, here, but the officers and infrastructure team in particular."
-
fippo
kev: because your company gets credit at http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/
-
fippo
which reminds me I need to provide an update to that page.
-
m&m
I kind of feel left out )-:
-
m&m
ok, not really
-
Simon
what if members do it on their own time?
-
m&m
which is entirely my case
-
Simon
+1.
-
Simon
I sponsor me. :)
-
Kev
fippo: Well, kinda. e.g. my blurb says where I work, but gives no credit for Isode time.
-
bear
that "friends" item was me suggesting something that is all - it was not something that is being planned or that should be planned
-
bear
I was using it as an example during the sponsor discussion
-
Kev
bear: Discussion is continuing on the mailing list.
-
bear
sorry -i've been distracted
-
Kev
I can relate.
-
stpeter
Zash: when did you arrive and depart in London?
- bear flips over to $dayjob for a bit
-
Zash
Monday - Saturday
-
stpeter
so 5 nights
-
stpeter
I stayed 4 nights
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stpeter
what was your room rate?
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stpeter
104 per night, maybe?
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Zash
I'd guess 89.00 + 105 * 4 GBP
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Zash
Reservation was for 4 nights by accidents, so it lists 89 + 105*3
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stpeter
89 + 15 makes sense from what I see
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stpeter
per night
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stpeter
which is 104
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stpeter
just trying to figure out which credit card payment is for whom because I paid for both you and me on the same day
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stpeter
but I think I have it now
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Zash
Great