XSF Discussion - 2014-03-19


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  40. Ge0rG dwd: ping?
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  53. Kev How're we looking on that sponsorship for replacing Athena? One of its disks now seems to have died, which suggests it has a very limited life expectancy.
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  82. Kev MAM question (looking particularly at Zash and MattJ):
  83. Kev Is there ever a reason to store an archived element?
  84. Kev e.g. if a MUC adds an archived element, and then that stanza gets stored in the user's archive, is there ever a reason the user would want the archived stanza to contain the archived element?
  85. Zash It would make sense for the server to strip it and then replace it with its own
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  87. Zash The prosody implementation attaches the archived element after successful storage of the stanza (and strips it right after carbons for outgoing messages)
  88. Simon what do you think of the <hr> above the <h2>? Like it? hate it?
  89. Simon sorry - wrong room.
  90. Kev Oh, yeah, definitely an hr above an h2.
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  105. Simon Either someone tweaked XMPP.net's scoring or someone tweaked jabber.org's ciphers.
  106. Zash psst, xnyhps, could we get a list of previous tests? :)
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  109. intosi Simon: Kev did the latter.
  110. Zash So, we want a before and after :)
  111. intosi Somethng like this? https://xmpp.net/result.php?id=3
  112. intosi That was the first test ran against jabber.org
  113. Zash :D
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  115. stpeter I'll write a small post about it for jabber.org here in a few minutes, because it's possible that some clients can't connect any longer
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  119. intosi xnyhps: would it be possible to alter the format of the permalinks a bit? It's very easy to iterate over all results this way ;)
  120. xnyhps Do you want old results to be private?
  121. intosi Do you want external parties to be able to fetch all results sequentially? If so, keep 'em like they are now :)
  122. xnyhps I don't really mind other people using this info
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  124. stpeter yeah, I don't particularly see what the attack might be
  125. xnyhps If it included "this server has open registration" then it'd have spamming potential. But it doesn't.
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  127. intosi Right
  128. intosi An 'older results' link for a certain domain might be a nice addition. Saves me spidering all results ;)
  129. intosi (or doing a binary search if I happen to remember the approx datetime of the rest)
  130. intosi rest=test
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  135. dwd Afternoon all.
  136. stpeter hi dwd
  137. m&m waves
  138. ralphm grabs a coke
  139. Kev Just prior to the Board meeting, I repeat my earlier question: "How're we looking on that sponsorship for replacing Athena? One of its disks now seems to have died, which suggests it has a very limited life expectancy. Kev @ 9:55"
  140. dwd Gotcha. We should probably discuss this in the meeting.
  141. Kev If the money is there, at this point I suggest we just buy a new one.
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  144. Kev Athena dying would be, roughly, catastrophic.
  145. intosi Kev: +1
  146. dwd But my personal response is that I got the distinct impression that people only wanted to offer the exact sponsorship levels we have without any distinct treatment for a hardware sponsor, so I didn't persue. I can revisist it though.
  147. Kev I don't think it needs to be exact.
  148. Kev I do think it needs to not be disproportionate.
  149. stpeter hardware sponsorships seem messier than just pulling in the money and spending it :-)
  150. dwd stpeter, True, but hopefully we'd get more out of a hardware sponsor, as well as some incentive for them to provide a service contract.
  151. stpeter dwd: I had not thought about that angle
  152. ralphm but meanwhile, let's just buy the damn disk
  153. dwd stpeter, But a sponsorship deal is absolutely going to take longer to arrange, etc.
  154. Kev ralphm: It's not, as I understand it, quite as straightforward as that with these ancient SCSI disks.
  155. stpeter some of these machines are old
  156. stpeter old as the hills
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  158. Kev dwd: I think generally we shouldn't let someone donating hardware give them a logo on every page, where an equivalent sponsorship would only show on one page, for example. I could be talked around quite easily to variations on the normal sponsorship deal if they seemed proportionate.
  159. stpeter do we need to have another iteam discussion about whether we really really need physical machines or whether we'd be comfortable with something like rackspace or whatever at this point?
  160. Kev That is, as long as it ends up looking 'fair' to other sponsors, I don't think we should dogmatically stick to the standard levels, but they should be used as input.
  161. dwd Kev, That seems reasonable.
  162. Kev stpeter: in terms of as a 'web host' or as a VPS provider type of thing?
  163. stpeter more VPS - we do need source control and such, not just web
  164. Kev Right.
  165. stpeter if I understand you correctly
  166. Kev Not having to admin the hardware side of things sounds appealing to me.
  167. stpeter me too
  168. Kev If we still get 'our own box'.
  169. Laura AFTERNOON
  170. Laura Less shotuing
  171. Simon Hi
  172. stpeter hi Laura!
  173. dwd Laura, Was that a hint we should get started?
  174. Laura Well, have you seen the time?
  175. dwd Is there a Bear?
  176. stpeter just poked bear
  177. dwd Laura, I'm an unemployed layabout, I don't look at clocks anymore.
  178. Laura You should never poke a sleeping bear.
  179. stpeter although it's usually not best to poke a bear
  180. intosi Kev: VPS would be nice. Or possibly not virtual, but a colocated private server where the hardware side is under contract.
  181. Laura dwd: enjoy while you can
  182. stpeter nods to intosi
  183. dwd Laura, I would, if my wife hadn't produced a list of jobs the length of my limbs.
  184. stpeter no reply from bear yet
  185. stpeter so I suggest we start without him
  186. Simon thows a few last minute items onto the agenda.
  187. Kev For the agenda: UPnP Liason team, please.
  188. Simon adds
  189. Laura Trello bord?
  190. ralphm Ok, I'll chair
  191. ralphm I was on holiday last week, not yet up to speed
  192. Simon Ralphm: shall we go through the tasks for last week first and see what's outstanding?
  193. ralphm Simon: I'll make that agenda item 1
  194. ralphm and other agenda items?
  195. ralphm 0. Welcome
  196. ralphm Hi!
  197. Simon ralphm: sent you a link to the list.
  198. ralphm Simon: hm?
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  200. dwd ralphm, Trello list; we discussed last week.
  201. ralphm I don't know what that means
  202. m&m I note that a decision still needs to be reached on membership-applications XEP
  203. dwd m&m, Thanks.
  204. m&m this is a one-week warning, the editor MUST have the answer by 03/26
  205. ralphm m&m: I think you are confused by Council rules on this
  206. dwd ralphm, No, they're the same rules.
  207. ralphm dwd: please point me to where that's stated?
  208. ralphm Simon, dwd: any way, what is a Trello and why do I want it?
  209. Laura The trello board is our list of items, what we are working on etc
  210. Laura Something to keep us focussed
  211. dwd ralphm, Trello is a kanban-board-onna-web. Simon started using it to track Board items, seems to be more useful than the previous system.
  212. Laura It's great
  213. ralphm ok, I missed that it was already in use
  214. dwd I hate it on principle (it's a cloud service I do not control), but other than that it seems good.
  215. ralphm Were there minutes of last week's meeting?
  216. dwd Not AFAIK.
  217. stpeter in any case, we can list the agenda items here, no?
  218. Simon I think that's a good idea
  219. Simon while raphm gets setup:
  220. Simon Wiki: it's a mess
  221. stpeter UPnP liaison team, website, London reimbursements, new machine / VPS, etc.
  222. Simon 2. website update.
  223. ralphm stpeter: I'll list the agenda items, sure
  224. Kev Could we order them so I can walk away in a bit? :)
  225. Kev Unless we're anticipating running to time.
  226. stpeter Kev: yes that's why I suggested liaison team first
  227. Kev TY.
  228. ralphm Kev: you can leave any time you'd like to
  229. Simon Seems Ralphm had a good holiday.
  230. stpeter ralphm: we have some Council-Board coordination
  231. Kev ralphm: No, I think I have to be here for the Council's report on UPnP
  232. Kev And possibly also for the iteam saying "buy us hardware".
  233. Kev But especially Council.
  234. ralphm stpeter: sure, but still
  235. ralphm anyway let's get underway.
  236. ralphm 1. Last week's action items
  237. ralphm Is that the 'by next week' list?
  238. dwd Yes, I think so.
  239. ralphm 'website building'
  240. Simon I'll start. I have a skeleton website building now - will commit that soon. No news on @xmpp (will follow up). Email sent for ideas on DNSSEC grant application.
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  242. ralphm ok
  243. dwd OK. For my items, I have a template invoice for which I need to pick Peter's brains on one thing; then I'll invoice and finalize sponsors tomorrow.
  244. ralphm ok
  245. ralphm That seems it then
  246. stpeter thanks, dwd
  247. dwd I'd note that the membership XEP has had some more comments, by Peter, who suggested removing corporate membership from the bylaws would be his preferred option.
  248. Simon hear hear. +1 on that!
  249. dwd I'd still like to accept the ProtoXEP to put it into the XSF "system"; it'll be experimental (and therefore without force) anyway.
  250. ralphm dwd: I thought we were still at action items
  251. stpeter I'll need to propose that bylaws change before the next XSF members' meeting
  252. dwd ralphm, Sure, just covering "Membership XEP discussion and vote".
  253. ralphm Let's go on with that item then
  254. ralphm 2. Membership XEP
  255. ralphm I have no objection to accept this as an experimental XEP
  256. dwd Nor do I, FTR.
  257. Simon happy with it as experimental
  258. ralphm Laura: any objections?
  259. Laura Sorry, no
  260. ralphm Laura: why sorry?
  261. ralphm Laura: not having objections is a good thing
  262. Laura Was apologising for not being on the ball! Just grabbed some water
  263. Simon She's British. "Sorry" is part of the language :)
  264. Laura Canadian originally, so even more so. Sorry.
  265. ralphm I don't think we really have to wait on bear to have this published. So I'll request our editor to publish it.
  266. ralphm stpeter: can you please do that?
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  269. stpeter ralphm: the Editor Team will take it under advisement ;-)
  270. stpeter but yes
  271. ralphm 3. UPnP liasons
  272. ralphm stpeter: splendid
  273. Kev Council would like to propose Peter, Peter, fippo and Joachim as the UPnP liasons.
  274. ralphm Kev: noted.
  275. Simon I wish them luck and "great success"!
  276. ralphm I move we take the Council's recommendation and install the UPnP liasons accordingly.
  277. Simon +1
  278. Laura +1
  279. dwd Just for the sake of clarity, that's Peter Saint-Andre, Peter Waher, Joachim Lindborg, and Philipp Hancke?
  280. Kev Right.
  281. dwd +1
  282. ralphm dwd: indeed. thanks
  283. ralphm I conclude we now have 4 UPnP liason people
  284. ralphm cheers
  285. ralphm Do we need to discuss further steps here?
  286. Kev I think this is now Done.
  287. ralphm Cool
  288. stpeter agreed, done
  289. ralphm 4. The Wiki
  290. ralphm (it's a mess)
  291. Laura I don't have much to say on this, other than who manages the content?
  292. Laura Because it is a mess
  293. dwd Laura, Thanks for volunteering?
  294. ralphm Laura: everyone :-D
  295. Laura Not until the website is done!
  296. Laura No more big projects. One at at time
  297. stpeter do we really need a wiki or shall we just put that effort into the real website?
  298. Laura Step forward dave?!
  299. ralphm stpeter: I think we should step back a bit
  300. ralphm what in the wiki is a mess
  301. Laura Depends on what we want from the wiki.
  302. ralphm ?
  303. Simon Peter: I thought a lot about this. I do think there is a need for a wiki.
  304. ralphm it is used for many different things
  305. Laura If we want to share info - this should be the website
  306. dwd FWIW, there is the email I forwarded to Board for last week, which discusses someone wnating to do something with the Wiki.
  307. Laura If we want to use it as a wiki (chuck content in here for collaboration / review), then we need one
  308. Simon The way that Laura and I are working on the static site, we're going to need a way that "everyone" can quickly update wiki-like content for different projects.
  309. Simon My goal with the xmpp.org site is that it can be good enough that great content from the wiki can bubble-up to it and be presented more professionally.
  310. ralphm seems sensible
  311. dwd I do like things such as the security guides, which benefit from anyone being able to add information into the page quickly.
  312. Simon but, we have a huge amount of work with xmpp.org still so I'd like to avoid any other wiki clean-up work until we have a good understanding of what the main site is for, doing, and how well it's working.
  313. ralphm I still want to get a feeling of what 'a mess' means.
  314. dwd And yes, I think if good content can bubble up, that's also good.
  315. stpeter Simon: do you mean that (a) we'd use the wiki as a scratchpad of sorts and then move stable information from the wiki to the real site, or that (b) the real site would be editable enough that we would no longer need a separate wiki?
  316. stpeter oh, I see that you mean (a)
  317. dwd I'd prefer that the real site was never quite as openly editable as the Wiki.
  318. stpeter because you say that there is a need for a wiki
  319. stpeter so carry on
  320. Simon stpeter: the main site will be editable with pull requests. I'd like to get a good workflow before promising anything more.
  321. ralphm Agreed
  322. stpeter yep
  323. ralphm I sense we just keep things as-is, for now
  324. ralphm 5. Hardware
  325. stpeter sure the wiki is a mess but I'd prefer that we put energy into the main site
  326. Laura ONE FOR THE BACKLOG?
  327. stpeter Laura: yes!
  328. Simon +1 on that (Laura - lets get our content written/delegated to authors, then see what overlap there is with the wiki and clean up post-launch)
  329. ralphm Kev mentioned before the meeting really started that we have some hardware issues that need urgent attention
  330. dwd Options are either than we spend money (fast, simple, costly) or that we persue specific sponsorship.
  331. Simon Ralphm: you are missing the website topic. (4) I hope we can come back to that after the HW discussion.
  332. ralphm Simon: I saw it as a bag, not and ordered list
  333. ralphm ^an
  334. stpeter :)
  335. Simon as long as it's in the bag.
  336. Simon is there a good reason to be running and maintaining our own hardware in 2014?
  337. intosi Athena is running on one disk. We need to address this sooner than later.
  338. ralphm dwd: so I saw mention of a vps. Does it need to be dedicated hardware, or is a cloud box ok, as well?
  339. intosi Simon: own hardware not so much, own "system": yes.
  340. Simon intosi: I get that.
  341. Simon sure
  342. dwd ralphm, I can't answer - that's a question for the Infrastructure Team.
  343. ralphm dwd: I see Kev and intosi here, they have voice
  344. Kev Simon: I think if someone can come up with a way of us getting an appropriately specced server, of any nature, that's OK.
  345. Kev Provided our expectations of uptime etc. can be met.
  346. Simon Kev: what is this server used for and what is it's spec?
  347. Kev It's very old.
  348. Kev It has something like 100G of storage, if that.
  349. ralphm Kev: I would be happy to see if I can get something arranged at Rackspace
  350. Kev And 512meg RAM maybe?
  351. intosi 74G disk
  352. intosi 4G RAM.
  353. dwd intosi, What's our timeframe here? 1 week? 1 month?
  354. Simon How much are we paying for this?
  355. Kev intosi: Oh, so it has.
  356. Kev Simon: Nothing.
  357. intosi dwd: when will your disk crash?
  358. dwd intosi, Tomorrow, I have it in the calendar.
  359. Kev dwd: As soon as humanly possible, I think. Likely the disk will not crash. If it does, this is ~=catastrophic.
  360. Kev I mean, we can recover, but we're websiteless in the meantime.
  361. Zash Are there backups?
  362. Kev Zash: Yes.
  363. intosi Zash: yes
  364. dwd OK, then we should just pay money, if only as an interim.
  365. Kev dwd: Pay money to rackspace or for a machine?
  366. intosi Finding a suitable disk isn't very straightforward. It's ancient. Setting up a VPS as an exact mirror might be quicker.
  367. dwd Rackspace or similar seems fastest.
  368. stpeter websiteless but also without source control
  369. dwd stpeter, Which is frightening, yes.
  370. stpeter yep
  371. ralphm Kev: I'd prefer not paying anything, obviously
  372. Kev I don't have a significant issue with going with Rackspace or similar. I just note that our current arrangement has served us well for many years, so I have a natural concern about changing models that work.
  373. Simon so this machine is ancient - I move that we simply get a VPS/new machine and migrate. Our time is all more valuable than hunting down old SAS disks.
  374. dwd Kev, Yes, indeed. But I think we should find an *interim* solution as rapidly as possible.
  375. Kev I'm fine with that.
  376. ralphm I even have personal credit of $200/month
  377. Simon Of course this is a call for the infrastructure team but this box does sound like it's well past it's prime.
  378. dwd Kev, That should give us sufficient breathing sp[ace to consider the next steps.
  379. intosi Simon: the machine needs replacing.
  380. Kev Simon: Well, we need money or sponsorship for a new 'box', which is why it's Boardish too.
  381. intosi A new disk would be interim as well.
  382. Kev Simon: iteam asked for a new machine some time ago (years?) as I recall.
  383. intosi Kev: at least two years back.
  384. ralphm Kev, intosi, let you and I work this out OOB?
  385. Simon Would it not make sense to use our budget for a http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/ex40ssd and be done with this hardware maintainance problem?
  386. Kev ralphm: That works fine for me, thank you.
  387. Simon or quivalent in equivalent land.
  388. intosi ralphm: works for me
  389. Simon (assuming Ralphm can't get something worked out)
  390. ralphm ok
  391. intosi We do have ds0039 as a quick diversion, which is also quite old.
  392. dwd Simon, Quite possibly. That said, we do have a very good hosting deal for solid tin right now, so I wouldn't want to make that kind of decision under this much time pressure.
  393. Kev The big issue is going to be database migration. I don't suppose we're near the website being ready? Migrating to the static site would be easier :)
  394. dwd In the meantime, do we have a relatively hot backup of git?
  395. ralphm dwd: I don't think it needs to be an either/or thing
  396. dwd ralphm, This is also true.
  397. Kev dwd: Yes, I think Git is something we can be confident to be able to easily get back a recent version.
  398. Simon Kev: nowhere close on the website - still loads to do.
  399. ralphm 6. Website
  400. Laura I can update
  401. xnyhps has left
  402. Laura Site map is drafted and each page has a ticket on the Trello Board.
  403. Simon Trello link: https://trello.com/b/ml9e82sE/xmpp-org-website
  404. Laura (Note - this is the 'amrketing' front, Simon is collating all info for Technical)
  405. Laura Marketing even
  406. Laura The trello links through to a google doc where the content will be drafted for each page
  407. Simon Yes, I'm drafting in victims^Wauthors, so if you see something that you can help with, please jump in.
  408. Laura I am going to email the Group so people know where to suggest / add content
  409. Laura As we complete each page, we nudge Bear and the build / design begins
  410. Laura Over and out.
  411. Simon Still early days though but we'll start speccing out bits in more detail soon: eg Audience, length, etc.
  412. Simon that's it from my side on the topic.
  413. dwd How much of the content can be directly reused from existing resource?
  414. Laura Lots. That is my job this weekend
  415. Laura It just needs a freshen up and a bit of tweaking
  416. Laura We have lots, the key is cutting it down to be consumable and useful
  417. Laura And tweak the language
  418. dwd So how far off the "minimally viable website" are we?
  419. Laura We will have the first pages of content next week. I need Bear to estimate more
  420. Simon DWD: it's more that it doesn't make sense to yank down the old one until we have a good enought replacement.
  421. Laura It should all move quicly now - the behind the scenes stuff that has gone on does take time
  422. dwd Simon, No, I get that. I'm wondering when we'd have a basic site up on a staging site.
  423. ralphm Also, please make sure old URLs redirect properly (forever)
  424. dwd Simon, In particular, I'm thinking that once something's visible, we might well get a lot more contributions going on.
  425. Simon dwd - as soon as I have the build actually working and deploying I'll send around a shadow site that we can then pivot over.
  426. Simon do we have any analytics on the current website so that we can see what people are actually interested in?
  427. Laura I REALLY want this on the new site so we can make changes as needed / dictated by use
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  429. Kev Simon: I heavily suspect that the vast majority of hits are to the XEPs themselves, rather than the other material. I could be wrong.
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  431. ralphm ok, we don't actually need to hash this all out in the meeting, I think
  432. Kev Probably true.
  433. Simon more updates next week on the topic I'm sure.
  434. stpeter sorry folks I need to depart here, but will be back later
  435. ralphm Let's make it an action item that we get a better estimate, that shows up in the minutes Simon is writing (right? RIGHT?)
  436. Simon heh
  437. Simon I can do.
  438. ralphm thanks
  439. ralphm ok
  440. ralphm 7. AOB
  441. ralphm Haven't heard any.
  442. dwd None from me.
  443. ralphm 8. Date of next
  444. ralphm +1W1H
  445. ralphm oh, wait
  446. ralphm +1W still
  447. dwd When is Stupid Time Zone Change Day?
  448. ralphm dwd: last weekend of March
  449. dwd WHat about for the US?
  450. ralphm they already switched
  451. Kev dwd: Already happened.
  452. ralphm Let's keep it the same time one week more
  453. ralphm 9. Close
  454. ralphm Thanks all!
  455. Laura Bye!
  456. ralphm bangs gavel
  457. Simon Bye everyone
  458. ralphm FRIETJES!
  459. intosi ralphm: enjoy!
  460. Kev Re: unnatural persons being members.
  461. Kev I'd feel happier if someone could come up with a reason why we might want to allow it.
  462. Kev At the moment it seems we're unanimously against it, which makes me worry that we're missing something.
  463. m&m Citizens United!
  464. dwd Well, first you need to consider what it means to have it.
  465. Kev (In as much as someone thought it was important enough to include in our bylaws, and I don't currently understand why)
  466. dwd I'd love to discuss this, actually, but I'm being called to eat Toad In The Hole.
  467. dwd (Yum!)
  468. dwd I'll be back later though.
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  473. intosi dwd: didn't you mention BGP hijacking recently?
  474. intosi http://www.itnews.com.au/News/375278,google-dns-servers-suffer-brief-traffic-hijack.aspx
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  485. dwd intosi, I mentioned routing-based attacks as the sole attack against a DNSSEC/Anon-TLS dialback. BGP hijacking being the likely case.
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  488. intosi Ah, that must be why I remembered BGP hijacking ;)
  489. Zash BGPSEC!
  490. Simon dwd: presumably in such an attack, you have some notion of upstream keys and software would/could warn #thinking-aloud.
  491. intosi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Public_Key_Infrastructure
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  493. Zash fwiw, I've implemented SRV lookups for incoming s2s connections in the Prosody DANE plugin. It's messy, but it works.
  494. Simon zash: I think this is the preferred solution - http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2385 but most operators ignore it according to posts I see on the nanog list.
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  525. dwd Zash, Still feels ugly to me, to be honest. But I suppose it'll have to do.
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  528. Zash Seems it'll be a tradeoff between code complexity and operational complexity
  529. m&m right
  530. dwd Ash, "Un-natural members"? :-)
  531. dwd m&m, I suppose there's also weight-zero. Though that'd require an update to SRV itself.
  532. Zash weight zero?
  533. dwd So you have an SRV record with various priority/weight for incoming, but if there's also records with weight zero, that might indicate an outgoing-only endpoint.
  534. Zash That'll require an update to SRV, yeah
  535. m&m that's a big might
  536. m&m and would break a few existing delpoyments
  537. xnyhps I thought weight 0 was legal, and would only be used when the total weight for that priority was 0?
  538. m&m xnyhps: eh, effectively
  539. m&m well, they're all equally treated as the last kid picked
  540. m&m since you can have multiple weight=0 for a given priority
  541. dwd xnyhps, Oh, yes, might be that. I vaguely recall.
  542. Ash dwd: Yeah. It was supposed to be funny. I probably should have put quotes round it or something!
  543. m&m Ash: are you worried about zombies applying?
  544. dwd m&m, I have wondered if some of our members *are* zombies.
  545. Ash I'm pretty certain we don't have any "un-natural" members (as opposed to natural persons), but thought I'd bring it up!
  546. dwd Ash, We don't, no.
  547. m&m dwd: I was going to say his concerns are too late for the current membership
  548. Ash :)
  549. Tobias hmmmm....brains...
  550. dwd The interesting question is what would happen if we had a company apply.
  551. ralphm it would be voted on
  552. Ash Has it ever actually happened?
  553. Ash I assume not
  554. dwd Ash, Not to my knowledge. Possibly before my time.
  555. m&m not to my knoweldge
  556. m&m knowledge
  557. m&m Jabber, Inc. considered at one point
  558. dwd ralphm, Right, but assume it gets in. It then has voting rights, etc.
  559. ralphm yes, but only one
  560. dwd ralphm, Moreover, Council is made up of members, and nothing appears to limit that to only natural members.
  561. m&m right
  562. ralphm I haven't seen a problem with that yet
  563. dwd I'm personally not entirely against companies being members, but a company being on Council I do worry over; I don't think it'd be useful (or right).
  564. Ash It'd be a bit weird
  565. m&m more than a bit
  566. ralphm ah
  567. ralphm Is a company an individual?
  568. dwd Well, let me rephrase. We assume a company will act in corporate interest - this is of debatable use, but probably little harm, for operating the XSF, but outright dangerous when dealing with Council issues.
  569. m&m exactly
  570. Zash What would a company gain from being an XSF member?
  571. m&m is there any limit on board members being people?
  572. dwd ralphm, "person", "individual", etc are all non-restrictive terms in US law; they can apply to natural persons, corporations, and even estates in probate.
  573. dwd m&m, Well, I got in.
  574. Zash Legal entities :)
  575. dwd Zash, Right - though that term includes natural persons as well.
  576. Zash dwd: That was what I meant.
  577. ralphm I wasn't sure if 'individual' is legally narrower
  578. m&m only if explicitly defined
  579. dwd http://thelawdictionary.org/individual/
  580. dwd Oh, when I examined the details of what manner of entities can become members of the XSF and Council, I also realised that sovereign states can also join.
  581. Zash Hah
  582. Zash and the EU
  583. dwd Zash, I'm not absolutely sure about the EU. Probably, though.
  584. m&m UN?
  585. dwd m&m, Pass. :-)
  586. m&m not that it would matter, they don't do anything anyways
  587. m&m well, we might get a strongly worded letter at some point
  588. ralphm dwd: including the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, I assume, then
  589. ralphm dwd: even though I am not a lawyer, I am mostly sure that 'invidiual' is a natural person, even in the US.
  590. dwd ralphm, See the link I pasted?
  591. m&m ralphm: you assume incorrectly
  592. dwd ralphm, "this restrictive signification is not inherent in the word, and that it may, in proper cases, include artificial persons".
  593. dwd As an adjective, though, it seems to preclude artifical entities.
  594. ralphm noted
  595. Zash Can robots join?
  596. dwd Zash, Nope.
  597. Zash The Robot Party objects!
  598. dwd m&m, BTW, Bylaws, §4.2 - "Directors may only be adult natural persons".
  599. m&m dwd: I did find that
  600. ralphm interesting that this is defined for the Board only
  601. m&m then I read < http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7159&eid=3922 >
  602. ralphm (and officers)
  603. Tobias m&m, did they already add the much demanded comments :D
  604. dwd ralphm, I think that'll be because it's legal boilerplate from some stock bylaw set.
  605. m&m glares at Tobias
  606. Tobias people should just write their JWKs in CSON (CoffeeScript Object Notation), which supports comments, and compile it to JSON as the hip kids do with JavaScript nowadays
  607. dwd ralphm, Whereas the Council, as you say, only talks about "individuals" - I suspect the *intent* may have been to preclude artifical persons, but I don't think it's likely to be quite the effect.
  608. m&m Tobias: you're behind the times … it's all about CBOR now
  609. dwd m&m, You mean PHOF?
  610. Tobias lol
  611. m&m haha
  612. m&m I appeal!
  613. dwd m&m, Instead of appealling, how about I look into it, agree you're right, but decide not to do anything about it?
  614. m&m oh, Barry
  615. ralphm dwd: what do you think is the chance of getting an artificial person on the council, in practise?
  616. stpeter wanders back in
  617. stpeter I must say I have never liked the term "natural person"
  618. ralphm yeah, what about Data
  619. stpeter such a lawyerly phrase
  620. dwd ralphm, Well, luckily, our sharp-eyed members would spot such a thing and vote against, being the careful and discerning voters that they are, right?
  621. ralphm or the Crystaline Entity?
  622. m&m more likely it was happen based on how close to the first entry in the voting bot it is
  623. dwd stpeter, I always think "natural person" suggests a nudist hippy.
  624. m&m s/was happen/would depend on/
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  626. ralphm Philosophically, what is the difference in producing a sentient robot (when that becomes a reality) and biological reproduction of, say, a human.
  627. stpeter ah, philosophy
  628. ralphm stpeter: yeah, since you wandered in, I thought it was appropriate
  629. Ash ralphm: maybe when that happens we could revisit the bylaws…
  630. ralphm Ash: why?
  631. ralphm Ash: I'd love to have Data on the Council
  632. Tobias has joined
  633. Ash Becuase we may want a sentient robot as a member
  634. m&m Data, sure … but not OMNI Corp
  635. ralphm Ash: I don't think that's a problem right now
  636. Ash If they had an XMPP interface they could vote so quickly...
  637. m&m even Lore might be some fun
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  639. dwd ralphm, Speaking personally, biological reproduction of humans is a heck of a lot more fun.
  640. stpeter if folks are concerned about "natural person" vs. "individual" (I'm not), I will review my bylaws proposal
  641. dwd stpeter, No, it's unaffected.
  642. dwd stpeter, The "individual" bit comes into play with the Council wording, which inherits any restrictions on members anyway.
  643. ralphm stpeter: I'm not concerned at all, really
  644. ralphm Has anyone ever looked into https://github.com/JabbR/JabbR?
  645. ralphm Specifically https://github.com/JabbR/JabbR/issues/709 is amusing.
  646. ralphm I am still no lawyer, but I can't see how that doesn't violate the Jabber trademark.
  647. m&m I wish I hadn't see that
  648. ralphm Well, I think it is utterly stupid to call your project that.
  649. ralphm For various reasons.
  650. ralphm But most prominently the fact it *doesn't* do XMP.
  651. ralphm XMPP
  652. m&m for any of the trademarked definitions of Jabber™ I know of, this is most likely problematic
  653. ralphm m&m: I assumed so. I also thought that as a Board member of the XSF, who sublicense the TM, I should bring it up.
  654. stpeter that project was poorly named, yes
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  657. Neustradamus :/
  658. Simon has joined
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  660. dwd Board folk, you've a sample invoice to look at. (I chose not to bore the member's list with that one).
  661. m&m /sigh
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  664. m&m well, that form is filled out
  665. ralphm Would it have mattered if I told you in private first?
  666. m&m not really
  667. ralphm right
  668. ralphm I remember having a talk with a colleague of yours yeaaaars ago (2003) about a potential patent thing in a proposal of a change to one of our XEPs
  669. ralphm but was smart enough not to mention what it was about exactly
  670. m&m that I'm completely unaware of
  671. ralphm yeah, fortunally, I think we dodged the issue by coincidence
  672. ralphm Oh, look, the Netherlands is being occupied by US armed forces
  673. ralphm http://liveairtrafficcontrol.blogspot.nl/2014/03/180314-amerikaanse-legerhelikopters.html
  674. ralphm a large part of the urban area in the west of the Netherlands will be in total lock down for the Nuclear summit
  675. ralphm unprecedented
  676. intosi Excellent.
  677. xnyhps Heh, used to live really close to that.
  678. ralphm xnyhps: here? http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2014/03/nucleaire_top_cleansweept_nede.html
  679. ralphm xnyhps: or, eh, say, here: http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/EH-eSUP-2014-01-NSS.pdf
  680. xnyhps No, I mean near Rotterdam Airport.
  681. ralphm xnyhps: which includes Eindhoven
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