Wednesday, March 19, 2014
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:06:52] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[00:17:07] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[00:22:16] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[00:22:20] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[00:22:20] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[00:24:36] *** dwd shows as "online"
[00:31:22] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[00:31:33] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[00:32:04] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[00:32:26] *** dwd shows as "online"
[00:32:38] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[00:32:55] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[00:33:55] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[00:34:15] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[00:35:42] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[00:35:57] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[00:39:46] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[00:44:59] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[00:47:58] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[00:48:05] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[00:49:02] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[00:49:46] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[00:55:48] *** dwd shows as "online"
[01:05:38] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[01:15:38] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[01:47:20] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[02:52:49] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[02:53:00] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[02:57:52] *** dwd shows as "online"
[02:58:15] *** Alex has joined the room
[03:02:52] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[03:12:52] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[03:18:56] *** dwd shows as "online"
[03:23:58] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[03:33:58] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[03:34:11] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[03:34:15] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[03:39:26] *** Alex has left the room
[03:44:39] *** Alex has joined the room
[04:06:40] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[04:37:31] *** Alex has left the room
[04:39:48] *** Santiago26 has joined the room
[04:41:29] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[04:47:18] *** dwd shows as "online"
[04:52:19] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[05:02:18] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[05:04:56] *** dwd shows as "online"
[05:05:22] *** Simon has joined the room
[05:09:58] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[05:12:14] *** dwd shows as "online"
[05:17:15] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[05:19:53] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:25:04] *** Simon shows as "online"
[05:27:15] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[05:27:27] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:28:28] *** Santiago26 has left the room
[05:29:31] *** emcho has joined the room
[05:29:44] *** emcho has left the room
[05:29:48] *** emcho has joined the room
[05:47:19] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:47:21] *** Simon shows as "online"
[05:48:04] *** dwd shows as "online"
[05:53:33] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[05:55:59] *** dwd shows as "online"
[06:01:01] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[06:01:58] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:02:26] *** Simon shows as "online"
[06:08:21] *** dwd shows as "online"
[06:10:11] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:10:11] *** xnyhps has left the room
[06:10:29] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:10:59] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:13:21] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[06:14:56] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[06:14:57] *** dwd shows as "online"
[06:15:15] *** Simon shows as "online"
[06:17:37] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:17:49] *** emcho has left the room
[06:18:18] *** Simon shows as "online"
[06:20:53] *** emcho has joined the room
[06:21:59] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[06:23:06] *** emcho has left the room
[06:23:21] *** Simon has left the room
[06:24:06] *** emcho has joined the room
[06:25:17] *** emcho has left the room
[06:25:33] *** emcho has joined the room
[06:25:51] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[06:28:51] *** dwd shows as "online"
[06:29:08] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[06:33:53] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[06:36:17] *** dwd shows as "online"
[06:41:19] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[06:51:19] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[06:55:46] *** emcho has left the room
[06:56:37] *** dwd shows as "online"
[06:56:48] *** emcho has joined the room
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[06:57:01] *** Ash has joined the room
[07:01:23] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[07:01:37] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:03:56] *** Kev shows as "online"
[07:08:38] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:11:37] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:20:05] *** dwd shows as "online"
[07:26:01] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:36:01] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:38:18] *** dezant has left the room
[07:38:49] *** dwd shows as "online"
[07:42:40] *** Ash shows as "online"
[07:49:54] *** Ash shows as "online"
[07:50:19] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:50:24] *** intosi shows as "online"
[07:52:30] *** emcho has left the room
[07:52:52] *** Santiago26 has left the room
[07:57:42] *** emcho has joined the room
[07:59:11] *** emcho has left the room
[08:00:31] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:02:00] *** emcho has joined the room
[08:13:09] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:18:41] *** Tobias has joined the room
[08:18:42] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[08:24:19] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:27:19] *** dezant has joined the room
[08:27:45] *** dezant shows as "xa" and his status message is "دوس أعلــه الگلـب بثـنيـن رجـليك..
ومن توصـل للكرامـه رجلك اكسرهـا!"

[08:28:02] *** Santiago26 has joined the room
[08:34:19] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:34:47] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:39:47] *** Santiago26 shows as "away" and his status message is "?"
[08:40:42] *** Zash has joined the room
[08:40:43] *** Zash shows as "online"
[08:44:21] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[08:45:47] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[08:56:15] *** dezant has left the room
[08:56:22] *** Zash has left the room
[09:00:59] *** emcho has left the room
[09:00:59] *** emcho has joined the room
[09:08:05] <Ge0rG> dwd: ping?
[09:09:08] *** Lloyd has joined the room
[09:11:43] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:12:04] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:12:09] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[09:17:57] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:22:29] *** dezant has joined the room
[09:22:49] *** dezant shows as "xa" and his status message is "دوس أعلــه الگلـب بثـنيـن رجـليك..
ومن توصـل للكرامـه رجلك اكسرهـا!"

[09:23:20] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[09:24:42] *** Santiago26 has left the room
[09:25:43] *** Santiago26 has left the room
[09:26:51] *** dwd shows as "online"
[09:28:52] *** Zash has joined the room
[09:28:53] *** Zash shows as "online"
[09:31:53] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:34:30] *** Santiago26 has joined the room
[09:35:46] *** Santiago26 shows as "away" and his status message is "?"
[09:38:16] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[09:40:33] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[09:41:53] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[09:47:25] *** Laura has joined the room
[09:48:45] *** dwd shows as "online"
[09:50:34] *** Lloyd has left the room
[09:53:02] *** Lloyd has joined the room
[09:53:09] *** Santiago26 shows as "xa" and his status message is "?"
[09:54:11] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[09:55:03] *** Santiago26 shows as "away" and his status message is "?"
[09:57:45] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[09:58:22] <Kev> How're we looking on that sponsorship for replacing Athena? One of its disks now seems to have died, which suggests it has a very limited life expectancy.
[10:01:42] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:04:11] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:04:34] *** Santiago26 has left the room
[10:05:16] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:05:38] *** Santiago26 has left the room
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[10:07:46] *** Santiago26 shows as "online"
[10:08:37] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:09:17] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:09:28] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:09:30] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:13:42] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:15:57] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:16:58] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:18:37] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:20:58] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:21:52] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:21:54] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:22:48] *** Santiago26 has left the room
[10:23:43] *** Santiago26 has left the room
[10:23:55] *** Alex has joined the room
[10:24:44] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:25:33] *** Santiago26 has joined the room
[10:25:36] *** Santiago26 shows as "online"
[10:28:03] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:28:26] *** Lloyd shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:28:55] *** Santiago26 shows as "xa" and his status message is "?"
[10:29:12] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:31:48] *** Lloyd shows as "online"
[10:33:18] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:34:08] *** Santiago26 has left the room
[10:34:16] *** Santiago26 shows as "xa" and his status message is "?"
[10:34:41] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:34:42] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:35:46] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:36:44] *** Santiago26 has left the room
[10:37:44] *** Santiago26 has left the room
[10:38:56] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:39:58] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:40:11] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:41:15] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:44:15] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:46:45] *** martin.hewitt@surevine.com has joined the room
[10:46:51] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:48:12] *** martin.hewitt@surevine.com shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:48:55] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:51:39] *** martin.hewitt@surevine.com shows as "online"
[10:52:22] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:53:21] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:54:34] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:56:05] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:57:13] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:59:55] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:01:02] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:02:13] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:07:01] *** emcho has left the room
[11:07:03] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:07:04] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being idle"
[11:07:05] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:07:28] *** Zash shows as "away"
[11:08:35] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:08:43] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:09:04] *** emcho has joined the room
[11:09:04] *** Lloyd shows as "online"
[11:15:34] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[11:18:05] *** Kev shows as "away"
[11:19:39] *** Lloyd shows as "online"
[11:20:00] *** Kev shows as "online"
[11:20:02] *** Simon has joined the room
[11:20:04] *** Simon shows as "online"
[11:20:04] *** Simon shows as "online"
[11:20:04] *** Simon shows as "online"
[11:21:39] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:21:46] *** Simon has left the room
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[11:24:54] *** Alex has left the room
[11:25:04] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:26:52] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:28:59] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:30:00] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:31:25] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being idle"
[11:34:00] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[11:34:04] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[11:34:12] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:36:07] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[11:36:59] *** xnyhps has left the room
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[11:41:25] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is "Not available as a result of being idle"
[11:51:58] *** Kev shows as "away"
[11:54:23] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:55:31] *** Lloyd shows as "online"
[12:01:18] *** Lloyd shows as "online"
[12:05:14] *** Kev shows as "online"
[12:06:36] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:07:01] *** Simon shows as "online"
[12:07:42] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[12:10:45] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:11:17] *** Lloyd shows as "online"
[12:11:39] *** Simon shows as "online"
[12:11:44] *** Zash shows as "online"
[12:13:43] *** Laura shows as "online"
[12:15:43] *** Laura shows as "online"
[12:15:51] *** Laura shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:17:20] *** Laura shows as "online"
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[12:22:09] *** Lance shows as "online"
[12:22:58] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[12:23:41] *** Lloyd shows as "online"
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[12:26:49] *** Lloyd shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:27:22] *** martin.hewitt@surevine.com has left the room
[12:38:15] *** Lloyd shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:42:40] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[12:51:41] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:53:39] *** dwd shows as "online"
[12:54:30] *** Alex has joined the room
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[13:00:45] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[13:05:52] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:06:06] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[13:06:57] *** Simon shows as "online"
[13:07:45] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:10:53] *** Simon shows as "online"
[13:13:10] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:13:39] *** Simon shows as "online"
[13:14:57] *** Simon shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:16:40] *** Simon shows as "online"
[13:16:45] *** martin.hewitt@surevine.com has left the room
[13:18:11] *** Lloyd shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:20:42] *** Lloyd shows as "online"
[13:24:45] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[13:28:44] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:30:06] *** martin.hewitt@surevine.com has joined the room
[13:30:30] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:30:31] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[13:32:50] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[13:36:38] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[13:49:01] *** Neustradamus has joined the room
[13:51:19] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[13:55:00] *** Laura shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:55:41] <Kev> MAM question (looking particularly at Zash and MattJ):
[13:55:49] <Kev> Is there ever a reason to store an archived element?
[13:56:16] <Kev> e.g. if a MUC adds an archived element, and then that stanza gets stored in the user's archive, is there ever a reason the user would want the archived stanza to contain the archived element?
[13:56:27] *** Laura shows as "online"
[13:56:52] <Zash> It would make sense for the server to strip it and then replace it with its own
[13:57:51] *** Ash has joined the room
[13:57:53] <Zash> The prosody implementation attaches the archived element after successful storage of the stanza (and strips it right after carbons for outgoing messages)
[13:58:41] <Simon> what do you think of the <hr> above the <h2>? Like it? hate it?
[13:58:54] <Simon> sorry - wrong room.
[14:00:02] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[14:01:02] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[14:01:20] <Kev> Oh, yeah, definitely an hr above an h2.
[14:02:42] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[14:03:07] *** m&m has joined the room
[14:05:20] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[14:12:35] *** Lance shows as "online"
[14:14:21] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[14:15:52] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[14:15:55] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[14:17:01] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[14:26:19] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[14:27:48] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:29:16] *** dwd shows as "online"
[14:29:56] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[14:34:42] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:36:57] *** Lloyd shows as "online"
[14:37:41] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[14:38:36] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[14:38:38] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[14:39:11] *** Alex shows as "online"
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[14:44:42] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:45:08] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[14:47:16] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[14:47:19] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[14:47:42] *** Santiago26 has joined the room
[14:48:02] *** dwd shows as "online"
[14:48:03] *** Santiago26 shows as "xa" and his status message is "?"
[14:48:25] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[14:49:51] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[14:51:10] *** Zash shows as "away"
[14:53:44] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[14:56:01] *** Zash shows as "online"
[14:57:10] *** martin.hewitt@surevine.com has joined the room
[14:58:16] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[15:20:37] <Simon> Either someone tweaked XMPP.net's scoring or someone tweaked jabber.org's ciphers.
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[15:21:40] <Zash> psst, xnyhps, could we get a list of previous tests? :)
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[15:28:05] <intosi> Simon: Kev did the latter.
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[15:28:32] <Zash> So, we want a before and after :)
[15:30:23] <intosi> Somethng like this? https://xmpp.net/result.php?id=3
[15:30:30] <intosi> That was the first test ran against jabber.org
[15:30:51] <Zash> :D
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[15:34:20] <stpeter> I'll write a small post about it for jabber.org here in a few minutes, because it's possible that some clients can't connect any longer
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[16:00:38] <intosi> xnyhps: would it be possible to alter the format of the permalinks a bit? It's very easy to iterate over all results this way ;)
[16:00:55] <xnyhps> Do you want old results to be private?
[16:02:44] <intosi> Do you want external parties to be able to fetch all results sequentially? If so, keep 'em like they are now :)
[16:03:08] <xnyhps> I don't really mind other people using this info
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[16:04:04] <stpeter> yeah, I don't particularly see what the attack might be
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[16:05:20] <xnyhps> If it included "this server has open registration" then it'd have spamming potential. But it doesn't.
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[16:08:26] <intosi> Right
[16:09:25] <intosi> An 'older results' link for a certain domain might be a nice addition. Saves me spidering all results ;)
[16:09:46] <intosi> (or doing a binary search if I happen to remember the approx datetime of the rest)
[16:09:51] <intosi> rest=test
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[16:20:45] <dwd> Afternoon all.
[16:22:08] <stpeter> hi dwd
[16:22:13] *m&m waves
[16:24:17] *ralphm grabs a coke
[16:24:59] <Kev> Just prior to the Board meeting, I repeat my earlier question: "How're we looking on that sponsorship for replacing Athena? One of its disks now seems to have died, which suggests it has a very limited life expectancy. Kev @ 9:55"
[16:25:17] <dwd> Gotcha. We should probably discuss this in the meeting.
[16:25:46] <Kev> If the money is there, at this point I suggest we just buy a new one.
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[16:26:09] <Kev> Athena dying would be, roughly, catastrophic.
[16:26:18] <intosi> Kev: +1
[16:26:31] <dwd> But my personal response is that I got the distinct impression that people only wanted to offer the exact sponsorship levels we have without any distinct treatment for a hardware sponsor, so I didn't persue. I can revisist it though.
[16:26:48] <Kev> I don't think it needs to be exact.
[16:26:54] <Kev> I do think it needs to not be disproportionate.
[16:27:16] <stpeter> hardware sponsorships seem messier than just pulling in the money and spending it :-)
[16:28:01] <dwd> stpeter, True, but hopefully we'd get more out of a hardware sponsor, as well as some incentive for them to provide a service contract.
[16:28:22] <stpeter> dwd: I had not thought about that angle
[16:28:27] <ralphm> but meanwhile, let's just buy the damn disk
[16:28:34] <dwd> stpeter, But a sponsorship deal is absolutely going to take longer to arrange, etc.
[16:28:44] <Kev> ralphm: It's not, as I understand it, quite as straightforward as that with these ancient SCSI disks.
[16:29:07] <stpeter> some of these machines are old
[16:29:14] <stpeter> old as the hills
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[16:30:05] <Kev> dwd: I think generally we shouldn't let someone donating hardware give them a logo on every page, where an equivalent sponsorship would only show on one page, for example. I could be talked around quite easily to variations on the normal sponsorship deal if they seemed proportionate.
[16:31:16] <stpeter> do we need to have another iteam discussion about whether we really really need physical machines or whether we'd be comfortable with something like rackspace or whatever at this point?
[16:31:26] <Kev> That is, as long as it ends up looking 'fair' to other sponsors, I don't think we should dogmatically stick to the standard levels, but they should be used as input.
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[16:31:51] <dwd> Kev, That seems reasonable.
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[16:32:44] <Kev> stpeter: in terms of as a 'web host' or as a VPS provider type of thing?
[16:33:12] <stpeter> more VPS - we do need source control and such, not just web
[16:33:20] <Kev> Right.
[16:33:23] <stpeter> if I understand you correctly
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[16:33:40] <Kev> Not having to admin the hardware side of things sounds appealing to me.
[16:33:45] <stpeter> me too
[16:33:50] <Kev> If we still get 'our own box'.
[16:34:04] <Laura> AFTERNOON
[16:34:09] <Laura> Less shotuing
[16:34:09] <Simon> Hi
[16:34:11] <stpeter> hi Laura!
[16:34:18] <dwd> Laura, Was that a hint we should get started?
[16:34:29] <Laura> Well, have you seen the time?
[16:34:33] <dwd> Is there a Bear?
[16:34:40] *stpeter just poked bear
[16:34:50] <dwd> Laura, I'm an unemployed layabout, I don't look at clocks anymore.
[16:34:51] <Laura> You should never poke a sleeping bear.
[16:34:51] <stpeter> although it's usually not best to poke a bear
[16:35:03] <intosi> Kev: VPS would be nice. Or possibly not virtual, but a colocated private server where the hardware side is under contract.
[16:35:08] <Laura> dwd: enjoy while you can
[16:35:21] *stpeter nods to intosi
[16:35:28] <dwd> Laura, I would, if my wife hadn't produced a list of jobs the length of my limbs.
[16:35:43] <stpeter> no reply from bear yet
[16:36:25] <stpeter> so I suggest we start without him
[16:36:27] *Simon thows a few last minute items onto the agenda.
[16:36:28] <Kev> For the agenda: UPnP Liason team, please.
[16:36:37] *Simon adds
[16:36:56] <Laura> Trello bord?
[16:37:00] <ralphm> Ok, I'll chair
[16:37:28] <ralphm> I was on holiday last week, not yet up to speed
[16:37:29] <Simon> Ralphm: shall we go through the tasks for last week first and see what's outstanding?
[16:37:44] <ralphm> Simon: I'll make that agenda item 1
[16:37:49] <ralphm> and other agenda items?
[16:38:18] <ralphm> 0. Welcome
[16:38:19] <ralphm> Hi!
[16:38:25] <Simon> ralphm: sent you a link to the list.
[16:39:06] <ralphm> Simon: hm?
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[16:39:36] <dwd> ralphm, Trello list; we discussed last week.
[16:40:04] <ralphm> I don't know what that means
[16:40:18] <m&m> I note that a decision still needs to be reached on membership-applications XEP
[16:40:26] <dwd> m&m, Thanks.
[16:40:42] <m&m> this is a one-week warning, the editor MUST have the answer by 03/26
[16:41:02] <ralphm> m&m: I think you are confused by Council rules on this
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[16:41:10] <dwd> ralphm, No, they're the same rules.
[16:42:03] <ralphm> dwd: please point me to where that's stated?
[16:42:23] <ralphm> Simon, dwd: any way, what is a Trello and why do I want it?
[16:42:48] <Laura> The trello board is our list of items, what we are working on etc
[16:43:04] <Laura> Something to keep us focussed
[16:43:13] <dwd> ralphm, Trello is a kanban-board-onna-web. Simon started using it to track Board items, seems to be more useful than the previous system.
[16:43:45] <Laura> It's great
[16:44:22] <ralphm> ok, I missed that it was already in use
[16:44:25] <dwd> I hate it on principle (it's a cloud service I do not control), but other than that it seems good.
[16:44:33] <ralphm> Were there minutes of last week's meeting?
[16:45:45] <dwd> Not AFAIK.
[16:47:18] <stpeter> in any case, we can list the agenda items here, no?
[16:47:29] <Simon> I think that's a good idea
[16:47:37] <Simon> while raphm gets setup:
[16:47:43] <Simon> Wiki: it's a mess
[16:47:45] <stpeter> UPnP liaison team, website, London reimbursements, new machine / VPS, etc.
[16:48:03] <Simon> 2. website update.
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[16:48:23] <ralphm> stpeter: I'll list the agenda items, sure
[16:48:31] <Kev> Could we order them so I can walk away in a bit? :)
[16:48:43] <Kev> Unless we're anticipating running to time.
[16:48:59] <stpeter> Kev: yes that's why I suggested liaison team first
[16:49:04] <Kev> TY.
[16:49:05] <ralphm> Kev: you can leave any time you'd like to
[16:49:20] <Simon> Seems Ralphm had a good holiday.
[16:49:22] <stpeter> ralphm: we have some Council-Board coordination
[16:49:29] <Kev> ralphm: No, I think I have to be here for the Council's report on UPnP
[16:49:39] <Kev> And possibly also for the iteam saying "buy us hardware".
[16:49:45] <Kev> But especially Council.
[16:49:48] <ralphm> stpeter: sure, but still
[16:49:55] <ralphm> anyway let's get underway.
[16:50:04] <ralphm> 1. Last week's action items
[16:50:48] <ralphm> Is that the 'by next week' list?
[16:50:58] <dwd> Yes, I think so.
[16:51:09] <ralphm> 'website building'
[16:51:10] <Simon> I'll start. I have a skeleton website building now - will commit that soon. No news on @xmpp (will follow up). Email sent for ideas on DNSSEC grant application.
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[16:51:47] <ralphm> ok
[16:52:01] <dwd> OK. For my items, I have a template invoice for which I need to pick Peter's brains on one thing; then I'll invoice and finalize sponsors tomorrow.
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[16:53:27] <ralphm> ok
[16:53:48] <ralphm> That seems it then
[16:53:51] <stpeter> thanks, dwd
[16:54:00] <dwd> I'd note that the membership XEP has had some more comments, by Peter, who suggested removing corporate membership from the bylaws would be his preferred option.
[16:54:23] <Simon> hear hear. +1 on that!
[16:54:43] <dwd> I'd still like to accept the ProtoXEP to put it into the XSF "system"; it'll be experimental (and therefore without force) anyway.
[16:54:55] <ralphm> dwd: I thought we were still at action items
[16:54:58] <stpeter> I'll need to propose that bylaws change before the next XSF members' meeting
[16:56:02] <dwd> ralphm, Sure, just covering "Membership XEP discussion and vote".
[16:56:58] <ralphm> Let's go on with that item then
[16:57:01] <ralphm> 2. Membership XEP
[16:57:22] <ralphm> I have no objection to accept this as an experimental XEP
[16:57:33] <dwd> Nor do I, FTR.
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[16:57:49] <Simon> happy with it as experimental
[16:58:02] <ralphm> Laura: any objections?
[16:58:21] <Laura> Sorry, no
[16:58:33] <ralphm> Laura: why sorry?
[16:58:41] <ralphm> Laura: not having objections is a good thing
[16:58:57] <Laura> Was apologising for not being on the ball! Just grabbed some water
[16:59:03] <Simon> She's British. "Sorry" is part of the language :)
[16:59:23] <Laura> Canadian originally, so even more so. Sorry.
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[17:00:33] <ralphm> I don't think we really have to wait on bear to have this published. So I'll request our editor to publish it.
[17:00:40] <ralphm> stpeter: can you please do that?
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[17:01:02] <stpeter> ralphm: the Editor Team will take it under advisement ;-)
[17:01:03] <stpeter> but yes
[17:01:07] <ralphm> 3. UPnP liasons
[17:01:25] <ralphm> stpeter: splendid
[17:01:29] <Kev> Council would like to propose Peter, Peter, fippo and Joachim as the UPnP liasons.
[17:01:38] <ralphm> Kev: noted.
[17:02:01] <Simon> I wish them luck and "great success"!
[17:02:12] <ralphm> I move we take the Council's recommendation and install the UPnP liasons accordingly.
[17:02:29] <Simon> +1
[17:02:40] <Laura> +1
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[17:02:52] <dwd> Just for the sake of clarity, that's Peter Saint-Andre, Peter Waher, Joachim Lindborg, and Philipp Hancke?
[17:03:05] <Kev> Right.
[17:03:07] <dwd> +1
[17:03:10] <ralphm> dwd: indeed. thanks
[17:03:51] <ralphm> I conclude we now have 4 UPnP liason people
[17:03:54] *ralphm cheers
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[17:04:27] <ralphm> Do we need to discuss further steps here?
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[17:04:37] <Kev> I think this is now Done.
[17:04:46] <ralphm> Cool
[17:04:48] <stpeter> agreed, done
[17:05:04] <ralphm> 4. The Wiki
[17:05:13] <ralphm> (it's a mess)
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[17:05:44] <Laura> I don't have much to say on this, other than who manages the content?
[17:05:50] <Laura> Because it is a mess
[17:05:53] <dwd> Laura, Thanks for volunteering?
[17:05:57] <ralphm> Laura: everyone :-D
[17:06:02] <Laura> Not until the website is done!
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[17:06:09] <Laura> No more big projects. One at at time
[17:06:11] <stpeter> do we really need a wiki or shall we just put that effort into the real website?
[17:06:13] <Laura> Step forward dave?!
[17:06:25] <ralphm> stpeter: I think we should step back a bit
[17:06:30] <ralphm> what in the wiki is a mess
[17:06:31] <Laura> Depends on what we want from the wiki.
[17:06:31] <ralphm> ?
[17:06:34] <Simon> Peter: I thought a lot about this. I do think there is a need for a wiki.
[17:06:37] <ralphm> it is used for many different things
[17:06:41] <Laura> If we want to share info - this should be the website
[17:06:51] <dwd> FWIW, there is the email I forwarded to Board for last week, which discusses someone wnating to do something with the Wiki.
[17:07:08] <Laura> If we want to use it as a wiki (chuck content in here for collaboration / review), then we need one
[17:07:14] <Simon> The way that Laura and I are working on the static site, we're going to need a way that "everyone" can quickly update wiki-like content for different projects.
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[17:07:52] <Simon> My goal with the xmpp.org site is that it can be good enough that great content from the wiki can bubble-up to it and be presented more professionally.
[17:08:15] <ralphm> seems sensible
[17:08:43] <dwd> I do like things such as the security guides, which benefit from anyone being able to add information into the page quickly.
[17:08:52] <Simon> but, we have a huge amount of work with xmpp.org still so I'd like to avoid any other wiki clean-up work until we have a good understanding of what the main site is for, doing, and how well it's working.
[17:08:54] <ralphm> I still want to get a feeling of what 'a mess' means.
[17:09:03] <dwd> And yes, I think if good content can bubble up, that's also good.
[17:09:06] <stpeter> Simon: do you mean that (a) we'd use the wiki as a scratchpad of sorts and then move stable information from the wiki to the real site, or that (b) the real site would be editable enough that we would no longer need a separate wiki?
[17:10:10] <stpeter> oh, I see that you mean (a)
[17:10:16] <dwd> I'd prefer that the real site was never quite as openly editable as the Wiki.
[17:10:17] <stpeter> because you say that there is a need for a wiki
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[17:10:24] <stpeter> so carry on
[17:10:29] <Simon> stpeter: the main site will be editable with pull requests. I'd like to get a good workflow before promising anything more.
[17:11:11] <ralphm> Agreed
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[17:11:49] <stpeter> yep
[17:12:00] <ralphm> I sense we just keep things as-is, for now
[17:12:18] <ralphm> 5. Hardware
[17:12:18] <stpeter> sure the wiki is a mess but I'd prefer that we put energy into the main site
[17:12:29] <Laura> ONE FOR THE BACKLOG?
[17:12:37] <stpeter> Laura: yes!
[17:12:47] <Simon> +1 on that (Laura - lets get our content written/delegated to authors, then see what overlap there is with the wiki and clean up post-launch)
[17:13:17] <ralphm> Kev mentioned before the meeting really started that we have some hardware issues that need urgent attention
[17:13:41] <dwd> Options are either than we spend money (fast, simple, costly) or that we persue specific sponsorship.
[17:13:42] <Simon> Ralphm: you are missing the website topic. (4) I hope we can come back to that after the HW discussion.
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[17:14:31] <ralphm> Simon: I saw it as a bag, not and ordered list
[17:14:38] <ralphm> ^an
[17:14:38] <stpeter> :)
[17:14:54] <Simon> as long as it's in the bag.
[17:15:07] <Simon> is there a good reason to be running and maintaining our own hardware in 2014?
[17:15:15] <intosi> Athena is running on one disk. We need to address this sooner than later.
[17:15:30] <ralphm> dwd: so I saw mention of a vps. Does it need to be dedicated hardware, or is a cloud box ok, as well?
[17:15:35] <intosi> Simon: own hardware not so much, own "system": yes.
[17:15:46] <Simon> intosi: I get that.
[17:15:48] <Simon> sure
[17:15:56] <dwd> ralphm, I can't answer - that's a question for the Infrastructure Team.
[17:16:10] <ralphm> dwd: I see Kev and intosi here, they have voice
[17:16:11] <Kev> Simon: I think if someone can come up with a way of us getting an appropriately specced server, of any nature, that's OK.
[17:16:30] <Kev> Provided our expectations of uptime etc. can be met.
[17:16:31] <Simon> Kev: what is this server used for and what is it's spec?
[17:16:38] <Kev> It's very old.
[17:16:58] <Kev> It has something like 100G of storage, if that.
[17:17:02] <ralphm> Kev: I would be happy to see if I can get something arranged at Rackspace
[17:17:07] <Kev> And 512meg RAM maybe?
[17:17:15] <intosi> 74G disk
[17:17:33] <intosi> 4G RAM.
[17:17:41] <dwd> intosi, What's our timeframe here? 1 week? 1 month?
[17:17:42] <Simon> How much are we paying for this?
[17:17:43] <Kev> intosi: Oh, so it has.
[17:17:46] <Kev> Simon: Nothing.
[17:17:56] <intosi> dwd: when will your disk crash?
[17:18:08] <dwd> intosi, Tomorrow, I have it in the calendar.
[17:18:15] <Kev> dwd: As soon as humanly possible, I think. Likely the disk will not crash. If it does, this is ~=catastrophic.
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[17:18:30] <Kev> I mean, we can recover, but we're websiteless in the meantime.
[17:18:32] <Zash> Are there backups?
[17:18:36] <Kev> Zash: Yes.
[17:18:37] <intosi> Zash: yes
[17:18:38] <dwd> OK, then we should just pay money, if only as an interim.
[17:18:55] <Kev> dwd: Pay money to rackspace or for a machine?
[17:19:11] <intosi> Finding a suitable disk isn't very straightforward. It's ancient. Setting up a VPS as an exact mirror might be quicker.
[17:19:12] <dwd> Rackspace or similar seems fastest.
[17:19:20] <stpeter> websiteless but also without source control
[17:19:28] <dwd> stpeter, Which is frightening, yes.
[17:19:33] <stpeter> yep
[17:19:36] <ralphm> Kev: I'd prefer not paying anything, obviously
[17:19:37] <Kev> I don't have a significant issue with going with Rackspace or similar. I just note that our current arrangement has served us well for many years, so I have a natural concern about changing models that work.
[17:19:50] <Simon> so this machine is ancient - I move that we simply get a VPS/new machine and migrate. Our time is all more valuable than hunting down old SAS disks.
[17:20:06] <dwd> Kev, Yes, indeed. But I think we should find an *interim* solution as rapidly as possible.
[17:20:13] <Kev> I'm fine with that.
[17:20:13] <ralphm> I even have personal credit of $200/month
[17:20:18] <Simon> Of course this is a call for the infrastructure team but this box does sound like it's well past it's prime.
[17:20:30] <dwd> Kev, That should give us sufficient breathing sp[ace to consider the next steps.
[17:20:33] <intosi> Simon: the machine needs replacing.
[17:20:36] <Kev> Simon: Well, we need money or sponsorship for a new 'box', which is why it's Boardish too.
[17:20:43] <intosi> A new disk would be interim as well.
[17:20:53] <Kev> Simon: iteam asked for a new machine some time ago (years?) as I recall.
[17:21:04] <intosi> Kev: at least two years back.
[17:21:08] <ralphm> Kev, intosi, let you and I work this out OOB?
[17:21:12] <Simon> Would it not make sense to use our budget for a http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/ex40ssd and be done with this hardware maintainance problem?
[17:21:21] <Kev> ralphm: That works fine for me, thank you.
[17:21:21] <Simon> or quivalent in equivalent land.
[17:21:44] <intosi> ralphm: works for me
[17:21:50] <Simon> (assuming Ralphm can't get something worked out)
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[17:22:10] <ralphm> ok
[17:22:11] <intosi> We do have ds0039 as a quick diversion, which is also quite old.
[17:22:14] <dwd> Simon, Quite possibly. That said, we do have a very good hosting deal for solid tin right now, so I wouldn't want to make that kind of decision under this much time pressure.
[17:22:41] <Kev> The big issue is going to be database migration. I don't suppose we're near the website being ready? Migrating to the static site would be easier :)
[17:22:42] <dwd> In the meantime, do we have a relatively hot backup of git?
[17:22:48] <ralphm> dwd: I don't think it needs to be an either/or thing
[17:22:58] <dwd> ralphm, This is also true.
[17:23:03] <Kev> dwd: Yes, I think Git is something we can be confident to be able to easily get back a recent version.
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[17:23:29] <Simon> Kev: nowhere close on the website - still loads to do.
[17:23:37] <ralphm> 6. Website
[17:23:54] <Laura> I can update
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[17:24:19] <Laura> Site map is drafted and each page has a ticket on the Trello Board.
[17:24:34] <Simon> Trello link: https://trello.com/b/ml9e82sE/xmpp-org-website
[17:24:37] <Laura> (Note - this is the 'amrketing' front, Simon is collating all info for Technical)
[17:24:46] <Laura> Marketing even
[17:25:06] <Laura> The trello links through to a google doc where the content will be drafted for each page
[17:25:14] <Simon> Yes, I'm drafting in victims^Wauthors, so if you see something that you can help with, please jump in.
[17:25:19] <Laura> I am going to email the Group so people know where to suggest / add content
[17:25:46] <Laura> As we complete each page, we nudge Bear and the build / design begins
[17:25:52] <Laura> Over and out.
[17:26:10] <Simon> Still early days though but we'll start speccing out bits in more detail soon: eg Audience, length, etc.
[17:26:42] <Simon> that's it from my side on the topic.
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[17:26:59] <dwd> How much of the content can be directly reused from existing resource?
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[17:27:29] <Laura> Lots. That is my job this weekend
[17:27:50] <Laura> It just needs a freshen up and a bit of tweaking
[17:28:01] <Laura> We have lots, the key is cutting it down to be consumable and useful
[17:28:11] <Laura> And tweak the language
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[17:28:52] <dwd> So how far off the "minimally viable website" are we?
[17:29:18] <Laura> We will have the first pages of content next week. I need Bear to estimate more
[17:29:32] <Simon> DWD: it's more that it doesn't make sense to yank down the old one until we have a good enought replacement.
[17:29:59] <Laura> It should all move quicly now - the behind the scenes stuff that has gone on does take time
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[17:30:28] <dwd> Simon, No, I get that. I'm wondering when we'd have a basic site up on a staging site.
[17:30:30] <ralphm> Also, please make sure old URLs redirect properly (forever)
[17:30:56] <dwd> Simon, In particular, I'm thinking that once something's visible, we might well get a lot more contributions going on.
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[17:31:28] <Simon> dwd - as soon as I have the build actually working and deploying I'll send around a shadow site that we can then pivot over.
[17:32:02] <Simon> do we have any analytics on the current website so that we can see what people are actually interested in?
[17:32:44] <Laura> I REALLY want this on the new site so we can make changes as needed / dictated by use
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[17:33:21] <Kev> Simon: I heavily suspect that the vast majority of hits are to the XEPs themselves, rather than the other material. I could be wrong.
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[17:33:30] <ralphm> ok, we don't actually need to hash this all out in the meeting, I think
[17:33:35] <Kev> Probably true.
[17:34:00] <Simon> more updates next week on the topic I'm sure.
[17:34:12] <stpeter> sorry folks I need to depart here, but will be back later
[17:34:20] <ralphm> Let's make it an action item that we get a better estimate, that shows up in the minutes Simon is writing (right? RIGHT?)
[17:34:30] <Simon> heh
[17:34:34] <Simon> I can do.
[17:34:38] <ralphm> thanks
[17:34:41] <ralphm> ok
[17:34:48] <ralphm> 7. AOB
[17:35:15] <ralphm> Haven't heard any.
[17:35:19] <dwd> None from me.
[17:35:24] <ralphm> 8. Date of next
[17:35:33] <ralphm> +1W1H
[17:35:41] <ralphm> oh, wait
[17:35:43] <ralphm> +1W still
[17:35:59] <dwd> When is Stupid Time Zone Change Day?
[17:36:07] <ralphm> dwd: last weekend of March
[17:36:14] <dwd> WHat about for the US?
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[17:36:21] <ralphm> they already switched
[17:36:23] <Kev> dwd: Already happened.
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[17:36:36] <ralphm> Let's keep it the same time one week more
[17:36:48] <ralphm> 9. Close
[17:36:51] <ralphm> Thanks all!
[17:36:52] <Laura> Bye!
[17:36:55] *ralphm bangs gavel
[17:36:58] <Simon> Bye everyone
[17:36:59] <ralphm> FRIETJES!
[17:37:11] <intosi> ralphm: enjoy!
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[17:41:52] <Kev> Re: unnatural persons being members.
[17:42:02] <Kev> I'd feel happier if someone could come up with a reason why we might want to allow it.
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[17:42:20] <Kev> At the moment it seems we're unanimously against it, which makes me worry that we're missing something.
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[17:42:26] <m&m> Citizens United!
[17:42:32] <dwd> Well, first you need to consider what it means to have it.
[17:42:55] <Kev> (In as much as someone thought it was important enough to include in our bylaws, and I don't currently understand why)
[17:43:30] <dwd> I'd love to discuss this, actually, but I'm being called to eat Toad In The Hole.
[17:43:35] <dwd> (Yum!)
[17:43:44] <dwd> I'll be back later though.
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[18:02:43] <intosi> dwd: didn't you mention BGP hijacking recently?
[18:02:44] <intosi> http://www.itnews.com.au/News/375278,google-dns-servers-suffer-brief-traffic-hijack.aspx
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ومن توصـل للكرامـه رجلك اكسرهـا!"

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[18:57:12] <dwd> intosi, I mentioned routing-based attacks as the sole attack against a DNSSEC/Anon-TLS dialback. BGP hijacking being the likely case.
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[18:58:28] <intosi> Ah, that must be why I remembered BGP hijacking ;)
[18:58:50] <Zash> BGPSEC!
[18:58:52] <Simon> dwd: presumably in such an attack, you have some notion of upstream keys and software would/could warn #thinking-aloud.
[18:59:18] <intosi> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Public_Key_Infrastructure
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[18:59:54] <Zash> fwiw, I've implemented SRV lookups for incoming s2s connections in the Prosody DANE plugin. It's messy, but it works.
[18:59:55] <Simon> zash: I think this is the preferred solution - http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2385 but most operators ignore it according to posts I see on the nanog list.
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[20:10:03] <dwd> Zash, Still feels ugly to me, to be honest. But I suppose it'll have to do.
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[20:11:21] <Zash> Seems it'll be a tradeoff between code complexity and operational complexity
[20:11:46] <m&m> right
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[20:13:53] <dwd> Ash, "Un-natural members"? :-)
[20:15:10] <dwd> m&m, I suppose there's also weight-zero. Though that'd require an update to SRV itself.
[20:15:38] <Zash> weight zero?
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[20:16:19] <dwd> So you have an SRV record with various priority/weight for incoming, but if there's also records with weight zero, that might indicate an outgoing-only endpoint.
[20:16:54] <Zash> That'll require an update to SRV, yeah
[20:16:57] <m&m> that's a big might
[20:17:08] <m&m> and would break a few existing delpoyments
[20:17:51] <xnyhps> I thought weight 0 was legal, and would only be used when the total weight for that priority was 0?
[20:18:07] <m&m> xnyhps: eh, effectively
[20:18:29] <m&m> well, they're all equally treated as the last kid picked
[20:18:47] <m&m> since you can have multiple weight=0 for a given priority
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[20:19:31] <dwd> xnyhps, Oh, yes, might be that. I vaguely recall.
[20:19:39] <Ash> dwd: Yeah. It was supposed to be funny. I probably should have put quotes round it or something!
[20:19:55] <m&m> Ash: are you worried about zombies applying?
[20:20:12] <dwd> m&m, I have wondered if some of our members *are* zombies.
[20:20:18] <Ash> I'm pretty certain we don't have any "un-natural" members (as opposed to natural persons), but thought I'd bring it up!
[20:20:33] <dwd> Ash, We don't, no.
[20:20:36] <m&m> dwd: I was going to say his concerns are too late for the current membership
[20:20:48] <Ash> :)
[20:20:58] <Tobias> hmmmm....brains...
[20:20:59] <dwd> The interesting question is what would happen if we had a company apply.
[20:21:17] <ralphm> it would be voted on
[20:21:19] <Ash> Has it ever actually happened?
[20:21:27] <Ash> I assume not
[20:21:30] <dwd> Ash, Not to my knowledge. Possibly before my time.
[20:21:31] <m&m> not to my knoweldge
[20:21:34] <m&m> knowledge
[20:21:46] <m&m> Jabber, Inc. considered at one point
[20:21:49] <dwd> ralphm, Right, but assume it gets in. It then has voting rights, etc.
[20:21:58] <ralphm> yes, but only one
[20:22:13] <dwd> ralphm, Moreover, Council is made up of members, and nothing appears to limit that to only natural members.
[20:22:33] <m&m> right
[20:22:36] <ralphm> I haven't seen a problem with that yet
[20:23:07] <dwd> I'm personally not entirely against companies being members, but a company being on Council I do worry over; I don't think it'd be useful (or right).
[20:23:35] <Ash> It'd be a bit weird
[20:23:48] <m&m> more than a bit
[20:23:55] <ralphm> ah
[20:24:03] <ralphm> Is a company an individual?
[20:24:05] <dwd> Well, let me rephrase. We assume a company will act in corporate interest - this is of debatable use, but probably little harm, for operating the XSF, but outright dangerous when dealing with Council issues.
[20:24:16] <m&m> exactly
[20:24:37] <Zash> What would a company gain from being an XSF member?
[20:24:39] <m&m> is there any limit on board members being people?
[20:24:49] <dwd> ralphm, "person", "individual", etc are all non-restrictive terms in US law; they can apply to natural persons, corporations, and even estates in probate.
[20:25:01] <dwd> m&m, Well, I got in.
[20:25:01] <Zash> Legal entities :)
[20:25:20] <dwd> Zash, Right - though that term includes natural persons as well.
[20:25:48] <Zash> dwd: That was what I meant.
[20:26:21] <ralphm> I wasn't sure if 'individual' is legally narrower
[20:26:53] <m&m> only if explicitly defined
[20:27:12] <dwd> http://thelawdictionary.org/individual/
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[20:27:53] <dwd> Oh, when I examined the details of what manner of entities can become members of the XSF and Council, I also realised that sovereign states can also join.
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[20:28:12] <Zash> Hah
[20:28:15] <Zash> and the EU
[20:29:10] <dwd> Zash, I'm not absolutely sure about the EU. Probably, though.
[20:29:20] <m&m> UN?
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[20:29:39] <dwd> m&m, Pass. :-)
[20:29:42] <m&m> not that it would matter, they don't do anything anyways
[20:29:54] <m&m> well, we might get a strongly worded letter at some point
[20:30:00] <ralphm> dwd: including the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, I assume, then
[20:30:40] <ralphm> dwd: even though I am not a lawyer, I am mostly sure that 'invidiual' is a natural person, even in the US.
[20:30:55] <dwd> ralphm, See the link I pasted?
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[20:31:13] <m&m> ralphm: you assume incorrectly
[20:31:26] <dwd> ralphm, "this restrictive signification is not inherent in the word, and that it may, in proper cases, include artificial persons".
[20:32:10] <dwd> As an adjective, though, it seems to preclude artifical entities.
[20:32:11] <ralphm> noted
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[20:32:25] <Zash> Can robots join?
[20:32:46] <dwd> Zash, Nope.
[20:33:17] <Zash> The Robot Party objects!
[20:33:44] <dwd> m&m, BTW, Bylaws, §4.2 - "Directors may only be adult natural persons".
[20:33:52] <m&m> dwd: I did find that
[20:34:02] <ralphm> interesting that this is defined for the Board only
[20:34:07] <m&m> then I read < http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7159&eid=3922 >
[20:34:21] <ralphm> (and officers)
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[20:34:32] <Tobias> m&m, did they already add the much demanded comments :D
[20:34:47] <dwd> ralphm, I think that'll be because it's legal boilerplate from some stock bylaw set.
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[20:34:55] *m&m glares at Tobias
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[20:36:29] <Tobias> people should just write their JWKs in CSON (CoffeeScript Object Notation), which supports comments, and compile it to JSON as the hip kids do with JavaScript nowadays
[20:36:41] <dwd> ralphm, Whereas the Council, as you say, only talks about "individuals" - I suspect the *intent* may have been to preclude artifical persons, but I don't think it's likely to be quite the effect.
[20:36:54] <m&m> Tobias: you're behind the times … it's all about CBOR now
[20:37:05] <dwd> m&m, You mean PHOF?
[20:37:10] <Tobias> lol
[20:37:13] <m&m> haha
[20:37:17] <m&m> I appeal!
[20:37:45] <dwd> m&m, Instead of appealling, how about I look into it, agree you're right, but decide not to do anything about it?
[20:37:58] <m&m> oh, Barry
[20:38:03] <ralphm> dwd: what do you think is the chance of getting an artificial person on the council, in practise?
[20:38:29] *stpeter wanders back in
[20:38:40] <stpeter> I must say I have never liked the term "natural person"
[20:38:52] <ralphm> yeah, what about Data
[20:38:54] <stpeter> such a lawyerly phrase
[20:39:04] <dwd> ralphm, Well, luckily, our sharp-eyed members would spot such a thing and vote against, being the careful and discerning voters that they are, right?
[20:39:08] <ralphm> or the Crystaline Entity?
[20:39:24] <m&m> more likely it was happen based on how close to the first entry in the voting bot it is
[20:39:34] <dwd> stpeter, I always think "natural person" suggests a nudist hippy.
[20:39:42] <m&m> s/was happen/would depend on/
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[20:41:14] <ralphm> Philosophically, what is the difference in producing a sentient robot (when that becomes a reality) and biological reproduction of, say, a human.
[20:41:45] <stpeter> ah, philosophy
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[20:43:00] <ralphm> stpeter: yeah, since you wandered in, I thought it was appropriate
[20:43:35] <Ash> ralphm: maybe when that happens we could revisit the bylaws…
[20:43:54] <ralphm> Ash: why?
[20:44:05] <ralphm> Ash: I'd love to have Data on the Council
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[20:44:14] <Ash> Becuase we may want a sentient robot as a member
[20:44:32] <m&m> Data, sure … but not OMNI Corp
[20:44:33] <ralphm> Ash: I don't think that's a problem right now
[20:44:38] <Ash> If they had an XMPP interface they could vote so quickly...
[20:44:54] <m&m> even Lore might be some fun
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[20:47:53] <dwd> ralphm, Speaking personally, biological reproduction of humans is a heck of a lot more fun.
[20:48:02] <stpeter> if folks are concerned about "natural person" vs. "individual" (I'm not), I will review my bylaws proposal
[20:48:12] <dwd> stpeter, No, it's unaffected.
[20:48:33] <dwd> stpeter, The "individual" bit comes into play with the Council wording, which inherits any restrictions on members anyway.
[20:48:45] <ralphm> stpeter: I'm not concerned at all, really
[20:51:08] <ralphm> Has anyone ever looked into https://github.com/JabbR/JabbR?
[20:51:27] <ralphm> Specifically https://github.com/JabbR/JabbR/issues/709 is amusing.
[20:52:07] <ralphm> I am still no lawyer, but I can't see how that doesn't violate the Jabber trademark.
[20:52:26] <m&m> I wish I hadn't see that
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[20:53:02] <ralphm> Well, I think it is utterly stupid to call your project that.
[20:53:09] <ralphm> For various reasons.
[20:53:37] <ralphm> But most prominently the fact it *doesn't* do XMP.
[20:53:39] <ralphm> XMPP
[20:54:43] <m&m> for any of the trademarked definitions of Jabber™ I know of, this is most likely problematic
[20:55:59] <ralphm> m&m: I assumed so. I also thought that as a Board member of the XSF, who sublicense the TM, I should bring it up.
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[20:59:06] <stpeter> that project was poorly named, yes
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[21:04:19] <Neustradamus> :/
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[21:14:21] <dwd> Board folk, you've a sample invoice to look at. (I chose not to bore the member's list with that one).
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[21:15:48] <m&m> /sigh
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[21:51:42] <m&m> well, that form is filled out
[21:52:19] <ralphm> Would it have mattered if I told you in private first?
[21:52:31] <m&m> not really
[21:52:34] <ralphm> right
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[21:53:45] <ralphm> I remember having a talk with a colleague of yours yeaaaars ago (2003) about a potential patent thing in a proposal of a change to one of our XEPs
[21:53:58] <ralphm> but was smart enough not to mention what it was about exactly
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[21:54:07] <m&m> that I'm completely unaware of
[21:54:43] <ralphm> yeah, fortunally, I think we dodged the issue by coincidence
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[21:55:46] <ralphm> Oh, look, the Netherlands is being occupied by US armed forces
[21:57:15] <ralphm> http://liveairtrafficcontrol.blogspot.nl/2014/03/180314-amerikaanse-legerhelikopters.html
[21:57:46] <ralphm> a large part of the urban area in the west of the Netherlands will be in total lock down for the Nuclear summit
[21:57:53] <ralphm> unprecedented
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[21:59:17] <intosi> Excellent.
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[22:05:52] <xnyhps> Heh, used to live really close to that.
[22:06:49] <ralphm> xnyhps: here? http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2014/03/nucleaire_top_cleansweept_nede.html
[22:07:58] <ralphm> xnyhps: or, eh, say, here: http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/EH-eSUP-2014-01-NSS.pdf
[22:08:03] <xnyhps> No, I mean near Rotterdam Airport.
[22:08:04] <ralphm> xnyhps: which includes Eindhoven
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