Thursday, March 20, 2014
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[01:06:37] *** dezant shows as "xa" and his status message is "دوس أعلــه الگلـب بثـنيـن رجـليك..
ومن توصـل للكرامـه رجلك اكسرهـا!"

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[08:40:17] <intosi> Hey guys. I'm about to migrate this XMPP server to a new machine. Expect some downtime, and see you at the other side of the switch.
[08:41:58] <Zash> :D
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[09:42:03] <intosi> Ah, it has.
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[09:48:59] <Ge0rG> awsnap. now that you rebooted the server, my admin rebooted the routers :(
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[09:49:42] <intosi> Hurrah! http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/
[09:50:56] <intosi> Thanks for your help, Zash!
[09:51:31] <Zash> yw :)
[09:59:56] <intosi> I think I reenabled logging in all MUCs as well.
[10:02:59] <intosi> Owners, would appreciate if you'd check as well.
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[10:04:19] <intosi> heh
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[10:20:15] <Ge0rG> anyone heard of dwd recently?
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[10:28:11] <ralphm> intosi: the room being semi-anonymous is that a change?
[10:28:36] *** dwd shows as "online"
[10:28:48] <dwd> Ge0rG, I have.
[10:29:38] <dwd> Ge0rG, I'm doing exciting MUC merging today, BTW.
[10:30:10] <Ge0rG> dwd: that's very exciting indeed! My MUC contributor was eagerly awaiting news from you, and asked me every some days
[10:30:49] <Ge0rG> in the meantime, I did some little fixes I actually wanted to be part of 0.8.7 but didn't have the time before the summit
[10:31:07] <Ge0rG> there will be a new fix release soon
[10:32:13] <intosi> ralphm: not deliberately.
[10:32:43] <ralphm> intosi: ok, because Gajim said that changed. I am not sure why this room would need to be semi-anonymous
[10:32:56] <Zash> I think it was before
[10:33:01] *intosi checks old config
[10:33:14] <dwd> FWIW, I do wonder if the XSF room ought not to be members only and non-anonymous, but that's not something we need discuss now.
[10:34:10] <ralphm> dwd: my current opinion: no
[10:34:32] <ralphm> dwd: i.e. for the members-only part.
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[10:38:16] <dwd> Right. I'd prefer the room to be non-anonymous, you see, but I worry about that if it's not also members-only.
[10:40:00] <intosi> Switching off nginx on athena. It's mostly spiders now.
[10:40:02] <ralphm> you worry too much
[10:40:33] <dwd> intosi, Spiders? Eeeek.
[10:40:42] <intosi> Yes. Some small, some huge ;)
[10:40:55] <intosi> I'm generally kind to all spiders, but no mercy today.
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[10:43:26] <ralphm> Is Tango still doing XMPP these days?
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[10:44:07] <ralphm> http://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2014/03/20/exclusive-alibaba-sinks-250-million-into-messaging-app-tango-valuing-it-at-more-than-1-billion/
[10:48:16] <Ge0rG> I wonder if somebody will approach me to buy yax(.)im as well
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[10:49:58] *** Kev shows as "online"
[10:50:00] <ralphm> Ge0rG: you think it is good enough? Honest question, I am not currently using it because it doesn't do MUC.
[10:50:03] <Zash> ~$ nc -zv tango.me xmpp-client
Connection to tango.me 5222 port [tcp/xmpp-client] succeeded!
[10:51:14] <Zash> Seems to be a HTTP server there
[10:51:23] <ralphm> odd
[10:51:34] <ralphm> they have not SRV records any way
[10:51:34] <Ge0rG> ralphm: bug dwd about MUC :P
[10:51:53] <ralphm> Ge0rG: dodging the question?
[10:53:06] <Ge0rG> ralphm: seriously? I am using yaxim day-to-day for my mobile needs. Never needed MUC there, so I'm really fine with it. Good enough to be bought for millions? Surely not
[10:53:22] <Kev> When I'm mobile, I tend to need MUC more than 1:1.
[10:53:23] <Kev> FWIW.
[10:53:27] <Kev> I suspect it's a usage pattern thing.
[10:53:29] <intosi> Same.
[10:53:35] <ralphm> +1
[10:54:26] <Ge0rG> well, I've polished most of the issues that floated up with 0.8.7, will make 0.8.7b soon and then look into the MUC mess. I will do a call for beta testers here if you wish so
[10:55:07] <ralphm> Ge0rG: I'd love to see a well-integrated client (UI wise), with MUC, that is as approachable as WhatsApp or the new Hangouts. Obviously with good battery life and all that.
[10:55:17] <ralphm> Ge0rG: if yaxim can be that, more power to you
[10:55:43] <Kev> Swift for Android!
[10:56:10] <ralphm> Kev: only if it is following the Android UI guidelines
[10:56:20] <Ge0rG> ralphm: seems like I need to actually install WhatsApp and betray my friends, just to see how it does MUC
[10:56:57] *** Zash shows as "away" and his status message is "Lunch"
[10:57:19] <Kev> ralphm: Right. If we did Swift for Android, it's not clear if Qt for Android would suffice as 'good enough'.
[10:57:39] <Kev> If it was, getting it running shouldn't be /too/ hard. If it wasn't, that means essentially a port, and that's not trivial.
[10:57:45] <ralphm> probably not, this is a generic problem
[10:58:40] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:58:57] <Kev> If only there was a straightforward way to implement the C++ interfaces in Java. As 'all' it needs is a new UI to port to other platforms.
[10:59:53] <ralphm> The new Hangouts UI for Android is growing on me
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[11:00:17] <ralphm> it is pretty decent, especially now presence is more prominent (even if only boolean)
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[12:06:04] <MattJ> I only use Yaxim
[12:06:38] <MattJ> I can't deny that there have been times I've wanted MUC (e.g. council meetings), but not often enough for me to switch to any of the alternatives (which have issues)
[12:07:00] <MattJ> intosi, thanks for migrating Prosody over :)
[12:07:14] <MattJ> It's been on my todo for a while to upgrade it
[12:07:15] <intosi> You're welcome :)
[12:07:31] <intosi> I didn't see any point in staying at 0.8
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[12:09:57] <Ge0rG> MattJ: MUC participants still are not kicked on restart :(
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[12:11:09] <Ge0rG> hm. if I unblock the Hangouts app on my Android, I will be still a lonesome guy hanging out
[12:12:11] <intosi> MattJ: feel free to check the config. There is a warning in the logs about a module I didn't yet bother looking at about mod_console or something like that. Trivial to fix, but someone has to do it ;)
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[12:12:53] <MattJ> mod_console was renamed to mod_admin_telnet, that's all
[12:14:06] <intosi> But yay: https://xmpp.net/result.php?id=23660
[12:14:25] <Ge0rG> I know I will have regrets, but now I am here, installing hangouts.
[12:14:29] <intosi> Compare to https://xmpp.net/result.php?id=20537
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[12:31:57] <Ge0rG> any volunteers for a hangout?
[12:34:17] <Zash> Why is it not doing any DH?
[12:36:58] <Zash> intosi: What OS and OpenSSL versions is xmpp.net running on now?
[12:37:18] <intosi> Zash: Debian 7, openssl is stock deb7.
[12:37:31] <intosi> 1.0.1e-2+deb7u4
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[12:37:56] <Zash> But https://xmpp.net/result.php?id=23660#ciphers
[12:38:03] <intosi> Yup.
[12:38:07] <Zash> Did that require a newer LuaSec?
[12:38:16] <Zash> (that = ECDH)
[12:38:18] <intosi> No idea, actually ;)
[12:38:32] <intosi> I'm just glad all things run and seem to work ;)
[12:38:40] <xnyhps> IIRC you need LuaSec 0.5
[12:38:43] <intosi> These details can be fixed later.
[12:38:54] <intosi> Ah. 0.4.1-1
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[12:39:44] <intosi> Installed lua-sec-prosody
[12:40:02] <intosi> Can this be reloaded without restarting Prosody?
[12:40:06] <Zash> No
[12:40:19] <intosi> Bummer, dude.
[12:40:54] <xnyhps> Generating dhparam can.
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[12:40:59] <Zash> .
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[12:46:24] <intosi> I would like to leave those details to someone of the Prosody team ;)
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[13:08:59] <intosi> Awesome! https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=5222.nl&type=client
[13:09:30] <intosi> I guess the observatory doesn't stop testing after it tries to determine encryption support, but doesn't rate ;)
[13:09:57] <intosi> (I reloaded the config very soon after initiating the test because I made a typo in the config)
[13:10:18] *** Tobias shows as "away" and his status message is "@uni"
[13:10:32] <xnyhps> Heh
[13:10:38] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:10:53] <xnyhps> It should stop testing when it can't determine support for any SSL or TLS version
[13:11:15] <xnyhps> But it will test all of them, even if the first results in "no starttls offered".
[13:11:18] <Zash> DANE \o/
[13:11:33] <intosi> Zash: yup ;)
[13:11:49] <intosi> I managed to convince Joker to add DNSSEC support for the .nl TLD a week or two ago.
[13:12:03] <Zash> Awesomeness
[13:12:14] <Zash> Didn't .nl have it since forever?
[13:12:29] <Zash> Or is Joker the registrar?
[13:12:32] <intosi> .nl had it forever.
[13:12:43] <intosi> Joker is the registrar I usually use.
[13:13:46] <intosi> .nl was one of the first TLDs that signed the zone, and certainly one of the domains with the highest percentage signed zones.
[13:14:33] <Zash> http://q.zash.se/4ea15828.txt
[13:15:01] <intosi> Hmm.
[13:15:45] <intosi> Any idea what's causing those cert validation errors?
[13:15:58] <xnyhps> My nearby pizza place with a webpage that looks designed in 1999 has DNSSEC. Cracks me up every time.
[13:16:14] <Zash> intosi: That's because I have an empty CA store.
[13:16:30] <Zash> In order to test DANE-only validation
[13:16:30] <intosi> Ah, so that is expected :)
[13:16:43] <intosi> In that case, w00t!
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[13:47:30] <Zash> So, DANE-only test host at dane.zash.se
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[13:52:04] *** Ash shows as "online"
[13:53:33] <Ge0rG> btw, what can I do if my domain reseller does not support / know about DNSSEC?
[13:53:45] <intosi> Inform them that you want it.
[13:53:52] <intosi> If they are nice, they will look at it.
[13:53:58] <m&m> you could try to run your own nameserver, if they allow for that
[13:54:30] <m&m> but really, either ask them nicely and frequently, or find another
[13:56:00] <m&m> Zash: is that zone signed? Or is that a server that will validate someone else's DNSSEC/DANE information?
[13:56:26] *m&m is trying to figure out if a middlebox is interfering, or there aren't any signed records
[13:56:38] <Ge0rG> right. I just can host my own DNS.
[13:57:02] <Zash> m&m: Both
[13:57:18] <intosi> But you need support from your registrar to have the DS records published in the TLD zone.
[13:57:45] <intosi> You cannot rely on people using dnssec lookaside.
[13:57:52] <Zash> xnyhps: https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=dane.zash.se&type=server why so slow?
[13:58:17] <Zash> Altho, it requires DANE
[13:58:20] <Zash> and the test server might not have that
[13:58:23] <Ge0rG> stpeter wanted to get the .im registrar to support DNSSEC... I wonder if anything happened there yet :>
[13:59:10] <Zash> Ge0rG: There was movement IIRC
[13:59:28] <simon> I heard dwd has friends in high places in .im and is working on it.
[14:00:42] <m&m> Zash: ok, it's possible your DNS updates haven't propagated far enough for me yet
[14:01:21] <m&m> they've got to cross an ocean, some plains, and a start up a mountain to get to me (-:
[14:02:36] <Zash> m&m: What DNS updates exactly?
[14:02:47] <Zash> I updated DANE for that test host yesterday
[14:03:01] <Ge0rG> simon: dwd first needs to fix yaxim MUC :D
[14:03:02] <m&m> and it can take up to 48 hours for those updates to widely propagate
[14:03:11] <m&m> I'm seeing them *now*
[14:03:18] <m&m> but I wasn't a few minutes ago
[14:04:54] <Zash> DNS doesn't propagate, it expires.
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[14:05:31] <m&m> it's was an imperfect word choice (-:
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[14:05:48] <simon> I can recommend http://dnsviz.net/ for inspecting ipsec records.
[14:06:00] <Zash> Altho I have a 24 hour TTL :)
[14:06:04] <m&m> but I suspect that one or more of my upstream resolvers had already cached your zone
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[14:06:29] <m&m> and not all resolvers unconditionally honor the TTL
[14:06:41] <Zash> Why would they have cached records about a test server?
[14:06:45] <m&m> I know of several that will not clear their caches for 48 hours, no exceptions
[14:06:53] <m&m> they cached records about your zone
[14:07:15] <m&m> do you really want to go down this rabbit hole? (-:
[14:07:21] <m&m> I fully regret ever starting to
[14:07:27] <Zash> .
[14:08:22] <m&m> let's just say that "zone transfer" doesn't always mean what you think
[14:10:30] <m&m> Zash: you have a not-small amount of additional info (-:
[14:13:17] <xnyhps> Zash: verse error Error: /opt/xmppoke/bin/xmppoke:3034: not-authorized: Your server's certificate is invalid, expired, or not trusted by dane.zash.se
[14:13:57] <xnyhps> Though I don't know why it gets that far, it should've closed the connection before that anyway.
[14:14:51] <m&m> simon: I think you're seeing a ISOC grant proposal in progress right now! (-:
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[14:18:04] <xnyhps> Grmbl. unbound crashed, but OS X is keeping port 53 claimed.
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[14:22:48] *simon grabs a pen and paper. More details please m&m. "Proposal to fix permissions in xmppoke"?
[14:24:26] <simon> xnyhps: are we seeing this https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unbound/+bug/988513 ?
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[14:26:07] <m&m> simon: "get prosody to do just about all of dane"?
[14:26:21] <m&m> I'm just observing what I'm seeing Zash et al hash out
[14:26:39] <xnyhps> No, I don't think xmpp.net uses forwarders.
[14:27:03] <xnyhps> I was complaining about my own machine (which was preventing me from accessing xmpp.net to fetch that log file for Zash)
[14:28:51] <simon> m&m: yes. I'd like a bit of cross-platform-ness. So that we can at least build two competing[ly incorrect] DNSSEC systems.
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ومن توصـل للكرامـه رجلك اكسرهـا!"

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[15:29:55] <Tobias> emcho, what are jitsi's current noise cancellation capabilities? do you use an open lib for this? or is this included in the codecs?
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[15:40:19] <stpeter> is it safe to edit WordPress pages?
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[15:41:00] <stpeter> I'd like to update http://xmpp.org/participate/become-a-member/upnp-liaison-team/ when possible
[15:42:32] <Kev> stpeter: Should be, yes.
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[15:44:45] <stpeter> ok thanks
[15:45:30] <stpeter> I might have a sponsor for a new machine, BTW
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[16:15:03] *stpeter makes some edits to http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-people/ while he's at it
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[16:15:51] <m&m> hrm
[16:16:45] <stpeter> yes?
[16:16:52] <m&m> nevermind … I was getting gateway errors for the xeps, but a hard refresh seems to have fixed that
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[16:32:56] <ralphm> stpeter: interesting stuff. I read that our Secretary is supposed to write minutes for Board meetings.
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[16:33:18] <Zash> Say, who is this Secretary?
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[16:33:58] <ralphm> Alex
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[16:35:05] <dwd> ralphm, I'd hate to scare Alex away; he does enough as it is.
[16:35:31] <ralphm> Oh, I forgot a smiley
[16:35:38] <stpeter> ralphm: theoretically, I suppose, but I've never seen that happen (I don't remember if I did that back when I was secretary)
[16:35:49] <ralphm> I'm happy for simon to produce minutes
[16:36:01] <dwd> stpeter, You probably di, but you were also probably Board Chair and Council Chair.
[16:36:20] <dwd> (And Editor, and Treasurer, and probably Secretary too)
[16:36:38] <dwd> Oh. Ha. Realised what I wrote there.
[16:37:35] <m&m> the circle is complete
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[16:41:54] <ralphm> If there is no immediate need, why not use standards@ for liason discussions, if any?
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[16:49:20] <stpeter> ralphm: because we're basically under NDA
[16:49:44] <stpeter> dwd: I have never been Board chair :-)
[16:49:47] <stpeter> or on the Board
[16:49:54] <stpeter> at least we kept that separation
[16:49:57] <stpeter> bbiab
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[20:17:32] <Zash> Simon: https://www.zash.se/prosody-dane.html describes my setup
[20:19:01] <Simon> Zash: very nice.
[20:19:12] <Simon> very very nice!
[20:19:35] <Simon> is this the first working DANE setup in XMPP?
[20:19:57] <Zash> Probably
[20:20:08] <Simon> I feel a blog post coming up.
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[20:22:06] <Zash> That's the validation part at least
[20:23:22] <Zash> https://github.com/shuque/tlsa_rdata seems easy to use
[20:23:44] <Zash> No idea why swede doesn't let you generate TLSA records from certificate files
[20:24:09] <stpeter> ah, good old shuque, I haven't talked with him in ages
[20:25:26] <Zash> Now we just need DNSSEC deployed everywhere...
[20:27:49] <Simon> zash - which selectors do you recommend to use?
[20:27:59] <Simon> +1 on universal deployment
[20:28:26] <Zash> 3 0 1
[20:29:01] <Zash> Other usages are either unsupported or messy or both
[20:29:22] <Zash> Pubkey selector requires a patch to LuaSec for extracting pubkeys
[20:30:04] <Zash> And you don't want the entire cert in the record, so sha256
[20:30:31] <xnyhps> https://github.com/xnyhps/luasec/commit/2dce1adc59a1bf820e71594c1ca3756a70fb9faa
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[20:31:00] <Zash> Actually https://github.com/brunoos/luasec/pull/12
[20:31:04] <Simon> no more needing to run unboud?
[20:31:35] <Zash> You don't strictly need to run unbound, but there has to be a validating resolver somewhere
[20:32:10] <Zash> lua-/libunbound can do that itself if you don't set
[20:32:24] <Simon> so running my own bind 9.0 server with some sensible upstream resolvers would work?
[20:32:29] <Zash> *don't set resolvconf
[20:33:01] <Zash> I'm not familiar with bind much, but if that does DNSSEC then pointing prosody at that shoul dwork
[20:34:27] *m&m wants draft-ietf-precis-nickname implemented everywhere
[20:34:54] <Zash> Implement all the things in all the things!
[20:35:13] <xnyhps> Zash: EVP_PKEY_EC confuses me.
[20:36:23] <Zash> xnyhps: You're not alone.
openssl/evp.h:#define EVP_PKEY_EC NID_X9_62_id_ecPublicKey
[20:37:08] <Zash> I hope that made you more confused
[20:37:09] <xnyhps> Or is an ECDSA key equivalent to an ECDH key?
[20:37:38] <m&m> they should be
[20:37:50] <Zash> This is the kind of thing I would ask you, xnyhps. :)
[20:38:18] <xnyhps> I understand DH and RSA, but DSA not at all.
[20:40:00] <Zash> Do you know of any ECDSA keys in the wild?
[20:40:10] <xnyhps> Ah, the DSA construction uses the same stuff as DH, so it makes sense.
[20:40:18] <m&m> right
[20:40:20] <Zash> IC
[20:40:33] <m&m> it's the same source input, just different operations
[20:40:39] <m&m> well, keying input
[20:40:44] <xnyhps> Zash: Google uses them, don't they?
[20:40:57] <xnyhps> "The connection is encrypted and authenticated using CHACHA20_POLY1305 and uses ECDHE_ECDSA as the key exchange mechanism."
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[20:43:04] <xnyhps> (That was for encrypted.google.com in Chrome.)
[20:44:49] *xnyhps wonders whether there are certificates with ECDH public keys out there.
[20:45:07] <Zash> http://q.zash.se/b80cfbb1.txt
[20:45:07] <m&m> EC public keys
[20:48:27] <xnyhps> Oh, the public key on the certificate doesn't even distinguish between whether it's for ECDSA or ECDH?
[20:48:33] <m&m> not the key
[20:48:39] <m&m> the key usage might
[20:49:35] <m&m> (assuming one looks at KeyUsage)
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[20:50:17] <xnyhps> Ah, yeah. That google one from Zash's link has "Digital Signature", which would mean ECDSA.
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[20:55:25] <m&m> that's the intended use, at least
[20:55:38] <m&m> according to the certificate
[20:56:16] <m&m> which makes sense for the PFS algorithms
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[20:57:04] <xnyhps> I was wondering due to the difference in Au=ECDSA and Au=ECDH in openssl ciphers
[20:58:13] <MattJ> Consistency? OpenSSL?
[20:58:19] <m&m> poppycock!
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[21:42:27] <Alex> did smth change on the webservers regarding email sending?
The wiki shows errors when sending out passwords resets
[21:42:36] <Alex> Error sending mail: Unknown error in PHP's mail() function.
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[21:43:40] <Kev> The server was migrated this morning.
[21:43:46] <Kev> Email is one of the things that's not done yet.
[21:43:51] <Alex> ah, OK
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ومن توصـل للكرامـه رجلك اكسرهـا!"

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[23:11:48] <intosi> Mail has been fixed on the new host.
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