Thursday, October 15, 2015
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[02:44:50] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[02:48:51] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[03:03:03] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
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[06:38:51] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being idle"
[06:39:05] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
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[06:48:51] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is "Not available as a result of being idle"
[06:50:41] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[07:20:59] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[07:22:25] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being idle"
[07:26:58] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[07:50:37] *** Kev shows as "away"
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[08:03:23] *** Will shows as "online" and his status message is "Isode, Hampton"
[08:03:32] *** arune shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:11:02] *** Kev shows as "online"
[08:13:29] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being idle"
[08:13:32] *** arune shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:14:05] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[08:20:55] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:21:02] *** Kev shows as "away"
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[08:24:10] *** arune shows as "online"
[08:24:34] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[08:24:34] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[08:26:03] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:30:13] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[08:30:15] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[08:31:03] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:31:14] *** arune shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:31:41] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:36:43] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:37:58] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[08:38:11] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:41:15] *** arune shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:41:49] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:43:12] *** Alex has joined the room
[08:44:04] *** arune shows as "online"
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[08:46:51] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:47:57] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[08:56:29] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[08:56:51] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:58:57] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:59:12] *** Zash shows as "online" and his status message is "Testing"
[08:59:13] *** Zash shows as "online" and his status message is "Testing"
[09:01:34] *** arune shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:03:01] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[09:05:28] *** xnyhps has left the room
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[09:11:33] *** arune shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[09:33:12] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[09:42:20] *** Kevish shows as "online"
[09:42:33] *** arune shows as "online"
[09:44:40] *** Zash shows as "away" and his status message is "Testing"
[09:45:03] *** Will shows as "away" and his status message is "Isode, Hampton"
[09:46:51] *** ralphm has left the room
[09:46:51] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[09:49:16] *** Will shows as "online" and his status message is "Isode, Hampton"
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[09:51:47] *** Zash shows as "online" and his status message is "Testing"
[09:54:28] *** arune shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[10:05:43] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:06:36] *** Kevish shows as "away"
[10:13:54] *** Will shows as "away" and his status message is "In a meeting"
[10:15:43] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:16:15] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:17:19] *** Zash shows as "away" and his status message is "Testing"
[10:20:47] *** Zash shows as "online" and his status message is "Testing"
[10:21:11] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[10:25:00] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being idle"
[10:25:13] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[10:27:22] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[10:28:40] *** arune shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:32:51] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:33:29] *** Zash shows as "away" and his status message is "Testing"
[10:34:57] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is "Not available as a result of being idle"
[10:36:36] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:38:38] *** arune shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:42:26] *** arune shows as "online"
[10:42:29] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:44:44] *** daniel has left the room
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[10:47:53] *** Zash shows as "online" and his status message is "Testing"
[10:48:13] *** Will shows as "online" and his status message is "Isode, Hampton"
[10:48:41] *** daniel has joined the room
[10:52:32] *** arune shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:57:53] *** dwd shows as "online"
[10:57:58] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:58:00] *** dwd shows as "online"
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[11:00:07] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:02:27] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:02:29] *** ralphm has left the room
[11:02:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:02:32] *** arune shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:03:27] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:04:12] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:05:12] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:07:53] *** Valérian has joined the room
[11:08:20] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[11:09:51] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[11:13:56] *** daniel has left the room
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[11:14:09] *** ralphm has left the room
[11:14:18] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:18:51] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:19:52] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:23:13] *** Tobias has joined the room
[11:23:15] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[11:28:35] *** xnyhps has left the room
[11:28:37] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:30:23] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:30:28] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:32:47] *** arune shows as "online"
[11:42:07] *** ralphm has left the room
[11:42:56] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:43:19] *** arune has left the room
[11:44:06] *** ralphm has left the room
[11:44:14] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:44:46] *** Will shows as "away" and his status message is "Lunch"
[11:45:51] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:45:56] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:47:21] *** ralphm has left the room
[11:47:34] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:47:44] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:48:11] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[11:48:15] *** Alex shows as "online"
[11:49:33] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:53:32] *** ralphm has left the room
[11:53:32] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[11:53:43] *** dwd has left the room
[11:53:49] *** Zash shows as "online"
[11:53:50] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:54:02] *** dwd shows as "online"
[11:54:27] *** ralphm has left the room
[11:54:31] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[11:54:44] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:54:45] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:54:46] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:54:46] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:54:46] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:55:07] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:56:35] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[11:58:15] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[12:02:47] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[12:06:21] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[12:11:52] *** Zash shows as "away"
[12:13:38] *** Zash shows as "online"
[12:15:34] *** Kev shows as "away"
[12:16:14] *** daniel has joined the room
[12:18:14] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[12:18:32] *** daniel has left the room
[12:18:38] *** daniel has joined the room
[12:18:43] *** Flow has joined the room
[12:26:42] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[12:27:11] *** daniel has left the room
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[12:34:52] *** daniel has joined the room
[12:39:12] *** dwd has left the room
[12:40:05] *** dwd shows as "online"
[12:40:19] *** Alex shows as "online"
[12:43:14] *** Zash shows as "away"
[12:43:46] *** daniel has left the room
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[12:47:40] *** daniel has left the room
[12:47:46] *** daniel has joined the room
[12:48:59] *** Will shows as "online" and his status message is "Isode, Hampton"
[12:51:40] *** Zash shows as "online"
[12:54:38] *** Valérian shows as "away" and his status message is "Away from my MacBook Pro."
[12:55:09] *** Zash shows as "online"
[12:56:15] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being idle"
[12:56:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:02:00] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[13:02:48] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[13:04:37] *** Valérian shows as "away" and his status message is "Away from my MacBook Pro."
[13:10:34] *** daniel has left the room
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[13:14:08] *** daniel has left the room
[13:14:16] *** daniel has joined the room
[13:15:57] *** Will shows as "away" and his status message is "In a meeting"
[13:17:49] *** Kevish shows as "online"
[13:19:32] *** daniel has left the room
[13:19:41] *** daniel has joined the room
[13:24:09] *** waqas has joined the room
[13:29:35] *** daniel has left the room
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[16:04:18] <Tobias> any XEP editor around?
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[16:05:41] <SamWhited> Tobias: What's up? They just had a meeting, and I think a few people ran off to other meetings, but I'm sure someone is around. Don't ask-to-ask, just ask :)
[16:06:58] <Tobias> http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2015-August/030246.html shouldn't the protoxep under 2) have a XEP number by now? the remaining votes are still outstanding i think and are irrelevant by now
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[17:15:16] <stpeter> Tobias: seems like it, yes
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[17:50:28] <Flow> SamWhited: reading editor@ backlog. Just want to clarify that you don't need to flush on stanza/nonza boundaries to close the side channel. You only need to flush (i.e. drop the deflate dictionary) when you flush the (TCP) socket. Which yields better compression then flushing on every stanza/nonza.
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[17:51:24] *Zash silently curses whoever made him notice 'then' vs 'than'
[17:52:26] <Flow> Zash: uh, thanks for pointing this out :)
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[17:53:00] <SamWhited> Flow: I think we're doing it on stanza boundaries (for reasons which I don't remember), but that makes sense.
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[17:54:26] <Flow> SamWhited: If you remember the reasons then let me know. Unrelated to compression: Smack used to flush the socket after every stanza, which caused "heavy" OS overhead. I've changed it to only flush if the send queue is empty, which increased Smack's throughput by some numbers.
[17:55:35] <Zash> Wouldn't it more generally be to flush between consequitive stanzas with different to/from or something like that?
[17:56:55] <Flow> Zash: hmm? "more generally"? Smack's approach is siimply "flush if there is no more to come"
[17:57:18] <Flow> Or what would be the advantage to flush based on from/to?
[17:57:50] <SamWhited> Flow: Probably just "we didn't know any better", but I have no idea; will advise.
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[17:58:21] <Zash> Flow: I send you tree messages in a row, then an attacker sends a special ping (like in xnyhps post). The three messages would compress well, but the attackers ping would not affect that.
[17:58:57] <Flow> ahh got you
[17:59:07] <Flow> let me think, but i fear you are right
[17:59:29] <Zash> But it might be noticable that you got more than one similar message in a row
[17:59:42] <Zash> I don't know
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[18:00:39] <Zash> Did anyone do any tests with a shared pre-negotiated dictionary?
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[18:01:27] <Zash> As in, feed a string composed of a big bunch of common substrings likely to occur in common stanzas before feeding in the actual stanza to send
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[18:09:06] <Flow> Zash: I think, in order for an CRIME-like attach to succeed when zlib/deflate sync flush is used as I desribed, the attacker would need to know which stanzas where bundled together in the same flush window (and therefore used the same dictionary).
[18:09:14] <Flow> *attack
[18:09:59] <Flow> furthermore, the attacker would need to time it so that his stanzas are bundled with the stanzas with the content he wants to determine
[18:11:09] <Flow> Seems hard but not impossible
[18:13:20] <Ge0rG> this is what happens when you mix control and data into one channel. People should have learned from the phreaking problems in the 70ies...
[18:13:27] <Flow> And throwing away the deflate dictionary if the from/to tuple changes would prevent that completely, just as throwing it away on the stanza boundary
[18:14:23] <Flow> Ge0rG: virtual control and data channel?
[18:15:03] <Ge0rG> Flow: yeah. and separate deflate dicts per JID
[18:15:45] <Flow> I wonder if random padding would prevent such an attack
[18:16:47] <Kev> Random dictionaries!
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[18:19:19] <Ge0rG> Flow: random padding before or after compression?
[18:19:36] <Ge0rG> and how much padding should it be?
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[18:20:51] <Kev> I do wonder how compression would be affected if every implementation lied to deflate and said that the current period-since-last-flush started with <presence type="unavailable"><show></show><status></status></presence><message and so on.
[18:21:34] <Kev> ISTM (not being a compression expert, that's more Dave's hobby) that you should be able to catch all the common cases.
[18:22:20] <Ge0rG> Kev: would that be a kind of a pre-defined dictionary?
[18:22:42] <Kev> Yes. I realise this isn't a new idea.
[18:23:09] <Kev> I'm just supporting Zash's suggestion above as interesting.
[18:23:15] <Kev> (And one I'd considered before)
[18:23:55] <Ge0rG> Kev: maybe we should just exclude payloads from compression?
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[20:14:32] <xnyhps> Zash: I think an easier way to achieve a similar thing is to just bind all the XML namespaces you might ever want to use on the initial stream header to a short prefix.
[20:15:07] <Zash> xnyhps: I've considered that too.
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[21:25:50] <dwd> http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2015#XMPP_Council BTW.
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[21:28:29] <dwd> Kev, zlib does have the dictionary stuff. I played with that once, for email transmission (using the message one was replying to as the compression dictionary).
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[21:29:07] <dwd> Ge0rG, If you exclude payloads from compression, then basically what you're after is EXI in precompression mode, plus something other than deflate.
[21:29:30] <dwd> (And FTR, I got that from Arc Riley)
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[22:42:55] <Ge0rG> now that stpeter has published RFC7673, it's high time to publish my XMPP-DANE blog post... If somebody wishes to proof-read https://op-co.de/blog/posts/yax_im_dnssec/ I'm open for feedback
[22:43:29] <stpeter> Ge0rG: thanks, will read
[22:44:38] <Ge0rG> stpeter: an interesting question that arose today with Conversations' new SAN checking code. Are wildcards allowed in SRV-ID SANs?
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[22:47:26] *waqas didn't know about DLV
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[22:48:06] <waqas> DLV sunsetting in 2016-2017.. is that because all TLDs will somehow be DNSSEC'ified by then?
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[22:51:23] <SamWhited> Yup, everything will also be IPv6 and there will be cake for all.
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[22:53:10] <Ge0rG> waqas: .IM won't be.
[22:54:00] <Ge0rG> Unless stpeter employs his magic super power of persuasion on Domicilium.
[22:55:28] <Ge0rG> but at least domicilium folks are friendly and respond, as opposed to StartCom.
[22:56:10] <waqas> SamWhited: I care more about the cake fwiw
[22:56:35] <Ge0rG> waqas: The cake is a lie.
[22:57:05] <waqas> :(
[22:58:27] <waqas> I haven't had cake in two weeks, largely because MattJ and people at the summit kept skipping dessert
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[23:10:52] <stpeter> bbl....
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