Wednesday, January 06, 2016
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[10:44:43] <ralphm> hey you, yes, you!
[10:44:57] <ralphm> Why haven't you signed up for the XMPP Summit yet?
[10:45:05] <ralphm> http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_19
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[10:46:32] <winfried> hey, I have signed up!
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[10:50:01] <dwd> http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/mix.html
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[10:51:45] <goffi> hi
[10:52:11] <goffi> it the mix proposal the MUC2 people are talking about for a while ?
[10:52:14] <Kev> Yes.
[10:53:11] <goffi> oki cool
[10:54:40] <goffi> it's good to have published it before summit
[10:54:59] <daniel> Should this be put on the official agenda for the summit?
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[10:55:11] <mathieui> when do we get https & hsts on xmpp.org? :)
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[11:04:30] <dwd> mathieui, HTTPS works; I'm not sure HSTS would be a universal benefit.
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[11:08:44] <goffi> dwd: have you seen my email on standard ? The diff tool is bugged in HTTPS
[11:08:53] <dwd> mathieui, I mean, https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/mix.html works fine, but there is a slight risk that banning http entirely might lead to us preventing some access. OTOH, we should probably switch to using the HTTPS URI throughout.
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[11:09:06] <dwd> goffi, Ah, OK. That's a problem we should certainly address, then.
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[11:09:31] <goffi> it's probably not a big deal, but I'm not the only one with HTTPS eveywhere
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[11:11:00] <mathieui> dwd, well, for the wiki it would probably be
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[11:11:57] <dwd> goffi, I think it's that the stylesheet is accessed over HTTP, so maybe it's not loaded for security reasons?
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[11:13:53] <Holger> goffi: PubSub without MAM doesn't just miss a search feature but also result set paging à la XEP-0059, no?
[11:13:58] <xnyhps> JS on the diff pages is blocked as it's mixed content.
[11:15:41] <mathieui> (I mean, wiki.xmpp.org doesn’t have a valid-matching certificate)
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[11:22:01] <winfried> dwd: are you planning to come to Summit 19 / Fosdem?
[11:22:26] <winfried> and are there any Yetis coming over this year?
[11:22:27] <dwd> Yes. Got at least one FOSDEM talk.
[11:22:35] <dwd> And I don't know of any, yet.
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[11:23:28] <winfried> really would like to have a chat with some of the ppl behind talky.io...
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[11:40:28] <fippo> winfried: talk to lance
[11:40:37] <fippo> but he isn't coming
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[11:40:59] <winfried> OK, will do
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[12:40:30] <goffi> dwd: maybe, both chromium and iceweasel don't work with https diff
[12:40:46] <goffi> Holger: XEP-0059 is mentionned in XEP-0060
[12:40:56] <goffi> we can use it without MAM
[12:41:23] <Holger> "Oh!" Nice.
[12:42:26] <goffi> we do actually in our static blog: https://libervia.org/blog/salut-a-toi
[12:42:35] <goffi> RSM is used for the "get older post" link
[12:43:02] <goffi> oups this one has just one post, this one has more: https://libervia.org/blog/goffi
[12:43:34] <goffi> s/"get older post"/"older messages"
[12:44:05] <Holger> XEP-0060 keeps including things I could swear it didn't include last time I read it!
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[12:44:34] <dwd> Holger, It recursively includes itself.
[12:44:40] <dwd> Holger, Pubsub all the way down.
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[12:45:14] <Holger> :-)
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[13:17:50] <ralphm> fippo: and you?
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[13:44:11] <dwd> ralphm, fippo isn't a Yeti anymore.
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[14:34:11] <intosi> Holger: having worked with 60 for a long time, I know the feeling ;)
[14:36:52] <Zash> So it's in some kind of superposition and every time you observe it it collapses into a slightly different document?
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[14:39:10] <intosi> Exactly that. Depends on the reason why you're observing it, even.
[14:40:03] <Zash> Which reminds me, how much dust are the paper towers we cut it up into under now? :)
[14:40:20] <intosi> ralphm?
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[15:13:26] <ralphm> dwd: I know this, still would like to have him there
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[15:14:11] <ralphm> Zash: still in the envelopes, so no dust
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[16:16:11] <dwd> It's nice to have an argument with fippo on standards@ again. Brings back happy memories. :-)
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[16:19:31] <MattJ> :)
[16:19:49] <stpeter> hehehe
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[16:26:35] <moparisthebest> a new pgp xep, I like
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[16:45:20] <Laura> Getting the Trello Board ready for the first Board meeting of 2016: https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
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[16:46:02] <stpeter> thanks Laura!
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[16:58:39] <bear> laura - I have to be in another meeting in 5 minutes so I will be lurking - the website should be ready this week after I meet with the iteam to give them (or install) the redirects I almost have finished. apologies for the very last minute update.
[16:59:48] <Kev> bear: Thanks for doing the work. I'll try to do whatever's needful when you're ready.
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[17:00:23] <bear> kev - no worries, it's going to be a file that can be included into an nginx config
[17:00:23] <Laura> Thanks Bear
[17:00:34] <bear> (as that is how i'm testing it)
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[17:00:46] <Laura> Ok folks, do we have anyone else from the Board here?
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[17:01:01] <dwd> Yup.
[17:01:37] <dwd> ralphm ?
[17:01:52] <ralphm> I'm here
[17:02:06] <Laura> Great, that's enough to kick off!
[17:02:17] <Laura> *bangs gavel*

Let’s start the meeting!
[17:02:27] <Laura> Agenda, which as always is driven from Trello: https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

1. Topics for decision
2. Review commitment list (what did people commit to do at the last meeting, and what is the progress )
3. Review items for discussion (for post-meeting conversation/discussion)
4. AOB
5. Time and date of next
[17:03:26] <Laura> 1. Topics…
[17:04:08] <Laura> I can see 2 - the first of which Bear has just updated us on (the website - for minute purposes - it's nearly there. Bear is just finishing the redirects)
[17:04:23] <dwd> The Summit needs a load of decisions and actions, I think.
[17:04:27] <Laura> The other… the summit. ralphm - do you need anything from the Board on this?
[17:04:40] <dwd> ralphm, You need a decision on the van hire, as usual?
[17:04:59] <Laura> Do we need to agree an overall budget?
[17:05:08] <Laura> Instead of individual asks?
[17:05:37] <dwd> That also works. Can we remember last year's budget?
[17:05:50] <stpeter> Laura: I have not looked into D&O insurance yet, so I have nothing to report
[17:07:56] <Laura> Thanks Peter - not wuite there yet but I will take hat note
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[17:09:52] <Laura> dwd - I am not aware of what the budget was. ralphm or stpeter?
[17:10:54] <dwd> OK. So let's assume we pick a working budget of €1500. I think that should cover the dinner, lunch costs, dinner transport, etc quite easily, and we should recover at least some of that via remaining hoody sales, sponsorship, etc.
[17:11:11] <Kev> Although I think a later item might affect that.
[17:11:13] <Laura> I;m not sure anyone else is actually here dwd!
[17:11:55] <Laura> But I would prefer to approve a budget, rather than each expense
[17:12:11] <dwd> Kev, Ah, true.
[17:12:18] <bear> i'm +1 to having the baseline budget be equal to last years as a start
[17:12:43] <ralphm> I never looked at the full budget
[17:12:54] <ralphm> I assume dwd's estimate is valid
[17:13:03] <Laura> I wonder if stpeter can shine a light?
[17:13:07] <dwd> bear, I've no immediate record of last year's to hand. But 2012 costs were €4,620 back when we splurged on busses and pizza, and includes a stock of t-shirts.
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[17:14:06] <dwd> Actually, I have 2013 to hand.
[17:14:56] <dwd> Which totalled about 3k including beanbags, t-shirts, and a bus trip.
[17:15:05] <dwd> I think we did last year in less.
[17:15:14] <dwd> No, that's 2014, not 2013.
[17:15:31] <Laura> Ok, based on that - are the Board happy to approve an initial budget of €1,500for the Summit, which we can review as we go?
[17:15:38] <dwd> But anyway, I think €1,500 is a reasonable starter budget.
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[17:17:20] <bear> +1
[17:17:53] <Laura> dwd / ralphm ?
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[17:18:14] <dwd> However, I'd like to suggest we accept requests to subsidize attendance in return for volunteering effort - for example, for taking minutes for the Summit. That'd be in addition to this budget. I'm thinking primarily students and similar.
[17:18:24] <dwd> Oh, +1 to that starter budget.
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[17:19:00] <Laura> That's 3 votes, so we have a majority. Initial budget of €1,500 approved.
[17:19:09] <Laura> What else is on the summit list?
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[17:20:10] <dwd> Booking dinner, Cisco offices, transport to dinner, subsidizing people if we want to.
[17:20:25] <dwd> Oh and merchandise if we want it.
[17:20:39] <Laura> Do we have ralphm here or has he been pulled away? I know he usually coordinates things?
[17:20:44] <ralphm> +1
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[17:21:00] <ralphm> I have arranged cisco offices as the summit venue
[17:21:05] <Laura> Oh good!
[17:21:12] <ralphm> i.e. Chris has said this should be ok
[17:21:32] <ralphm> I will also be receiving a batch of stickers
[17:22:04] <ralphm> (from Flow)
[17:22:26] <bear> I was wondering if that sticker order went thru
[17:22:35] <Laura> Good stuff. Dinner and dinner sponsors… dwd?
[17:23:03] <dwd> I can't easily arrange dinner, but I suppose I can poke people for dinner sponsorship.
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[17:23:26] <Laura> Who can we ask to help with dinner booking?
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[17:25:05] <dwd> Ideally a Belgian or a Dutchman. But it doesn't have to be someone on the Board - it might be best if we put out a mail asking members for help with arranging things, actually.
[17:25:37] <Laura> dwd - that seems sensible. If we have a list, then ask for help with that list - people can offer to help with certain items?
[17:25:49] <ralphm> I can call them
[17:25:50] <dwd> Yeah. That works for me.
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[17:26:09] <dwd> ralphm, You sure? I'm concious we're putting nearly everything on your plate.
[17:26:29] <Kev> SuperRalph.
[17:26:56] <Laura> I need to wrap up soon (sorry guys, restricted by time tonight and we are nearly at 30 minutes already) but dwd - are you happy to send the email to members, if we can draw up a list now?
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[17:27:38] <ralphm> dwd: it is just a simple call, no?
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[17:28:07] <dwd> Yeah. What night are we picking.
[17:28:13] <ralphm> Did it last year, too
[17:28:49] <ralphm> I'd say thursday
[17:29:06] <dwd> Sounds good to me.
[17:29:06] <Kev> Between the two summit days has a lot of merit for idea discussion.
[17:29:16] <Kev> (So: Sounds good to me)
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[17:31:39] <ralphm> I'd also like to request everyone to register at http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_19 as soon as possible. In any case all Directors that are planning on attending
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[17:31:55] <ralphm> (even if not entirely certain, please add a note to that end)
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[17:33:35] <Laura> We need to mail everyone a proper notice about dates, plans etc. I know folk have felt confused with discussion emails
[17:33:48] <ralphm> I did, on Monday
[17:34:06] <Laura> Oh, I didn't get that… possibly over eager spam filter. I will check
[17:34:34] <ralphm> http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2016-January/008228.html
[17:35:12] <Kev> I think Ralph covered that nicely :)
[17:35:22] <Laura> Guys, I am sorry but I need to leave. It's been slow work today. I will email everyone and hopefully we will all be over festive-lag and raring to go next week! Shall I leave you guys to it, or call it a wrap?
[17:35:40] <ralphm> Laura: are you coming to the summit?
[17:35:49] <dwd> Not after last time.
[17:35:54] <Laura> Hey!
[17:36:09] <Laura> Very unlikely though - it looks like dwd will be the Surevine rep out there
[17:36:18] <Laura> Sorry for inflicting him on you all again
[17:36:30] <ralphm> Laura: it will not be forgotten
[17:36:45] <ralphm> also, who do I pressure to make you go?
[17:36:52] <dwd> I have no idea how we'll book out the ribs place every night, now.
[17:36:56] <Laura> I am also scared someone might put me in an orange hoody again
[17:37:12] <ralphm> Laura: you loved it, don't deny
[17:37:12] <Laura> Ha - that's the real reason you want me there!
[17:37:22] <Laura> Rib place booking.
[17:37:50] <Kev> Everyone has their uses.
[17:38:03] <Kev> One day someone will find mine.
[17:38:30] <Laura> Put on a skirt and book the ribs place this year?
[17:38:31] <ralphm> aw
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[17:38:56] <ralphm> Chair, order!
[17:39:38] <Laura> Calling it a wrap there! Bye :)
[17:39:43] <Laura> *bangs gavel*
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[17:51:12] <dwd> ralphm, In my mail to ask for volunteers to help, you want/need extra hands for FOSDEM?
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[17:52:49] <Kev> I should be at the summit, but won't be at FOSDEM, BTW (I need to be back in Wales on the Saturday). I know I need to fill in the page :)
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[17:53:56] <ralphm> dwd: it is always a great idea to have people handy at the stand, especially since we also have a devroom on Saturday
[17:55:04] <ralphm> As for the dinner, if the list on the summit wiki page remains this small, we could just as well hit the ribs place
[17:55:15] <Kev> I'm sad I won't be able to go to the devroom this year :/
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[17:58:03] <ralphm> Kev: Indeed
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[19:29:51] <Flow> bear: the stickers arrived and some of them where distributed at the GSOC Mentors Summit.
[19:30:13] <Flow> stpeter: the GSOC money arrived too (just before christmas) :)
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[19:45:55] <bear> thanks flow
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[20:00:51] <Tobias> Flow, coming to fosdem and/or summit?
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[20:19:34] <Zash> Odd, why does Peter Wahers list posts not get attached to the proper thread by thunderb^W icedove?
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[20:20:23] <ralphm> Not sure. I use Thunderbird all the time
[20:20:46] <ralphm> Tobias: so Flow said to me that was unlikely. That's why he is shipping the stickers to me.
[20:21:35] <Tobias> ah..ok
[20:21:44] <moparisthebest> Zash, I noticed that too, and also use thunderbird to reply (though not icedove)
[20:22:14] <ralphm> Tobias: it might still happen, but he wanted to be sure
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[20:29:41] <ralphm> Tobias: are you coming?
[20:29:53] <Tobias> yup..
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[20:30:02] <ralphm> Tobias: why is your name not on the wiki page yet?
[20:30:20] <Tobias> because i haven't written it into the wiki yet
[20:30:26] <ralphm> Tobias: do it!
[20:30:55] <ralphm> And this goes for everybody. If I don't have the number of people, I can't plan things.
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[20:31:26] <ralphm> (like the XSF Dinner and lunches and stuff)
[20:31:33] <MattJ> I'm already on, do I win something?
[20:31:57] <ralphm> MattJ: my eternal gratitude and an IRL pat on your back?
[20:32:13] <MattJ> Oh wow, more than I expected
[20:32:29] <ralphm> MattJ: what did you expect?
[20:32:32] <Tobias> MattJ, yeah..you win the price for filling it out wrong :P
[20:34:29] <Tobias> MattJ, you're the only one mixing up given and family name on that list :)
[20:34:46] <ralphm> Heh! And I even chose those headings with care (as opposed to first/last)
[20:34:56] <MattJ> Ha
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[20:35:41] <ralphm> But at least MattJ's on the list. That's more than most of @everyone here.
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[20:41:59] <dwd> He isn't. Someone called Wild Matthew is.
[20:42:26] <dwd> BTW, I've been a rebel and put myself at the end. The table is, after all, sortable with a click.
[20:42:50] <Zash> The wrath of ralphm will be upon you!
[20:43:07] <dwd> He can click "Family name" if he needs to.
[20:43:19] <dwd> Or Nickname. Or whatever.
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[20:48:17] <ralphm> dwd: wrath
[20:48:36] <ralphm> dwd: that sorting thing was a trick by intosi and I am not buying it
[20:48:51] <dwd> ralphm, You had to pay him?
[20:49:00] <ralphm> dwd: hah.
[20:49:15] <ralphm> dwd: in any case, you've also earned the gratitude and pat
[20:49:32] <dwd> Right, time to reboot into Windows to do some terribly important Window work that isn't Elite Dangerous at all.
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[21:05:42] <ralphm> https://twitter.com/resiak/status/684679564153516032
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[21:22:41] <bear> the thread of that twitter post is amazing and sad and frustrating to read :/
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[21:28:15] <Lance> There was a really nice link in there though: http://www.crummy.com/writing/speaking/2015-RESTFest/
[21:30:36] <xnyhps> Zash: Same in Mail.app, fwiw (even those that aren't a response to "Standards Digest").
[21:32:10] <Zash> Two things I noticed was Microsoft was involved in all detached mails, and the In-Reply-To headers seemed funny
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[21:33:51] <Zash> Libraries and E-books? That's a nice mess
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[21:37:29] <xnyhps> Zash: I guess he's subscribed to the digest and replies by manually changing the subject.
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[21:38:48] <Zash> That might explain it
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[21:41:24] <MattJ> Meanwhile Twitter is such an awful interface for a long-running multi-party conversation
[21:41:40] <MattJ> Even out of order posts in places
[21:41:49] <MattJ> Where's Jaiku
[21:41:53] <Tobias> twitter conversations are a pinnacle in user experience
[21:42:01] <Zash> Yet people use it
[21:42:28] <Tobias> Zash, hopefully they stop when the 10k posts are coming :)
[21:42:41] <MattJ> Apparently not enough, they're worried about it
[21:42:52] <Tobias> about what?
[21:43:28] <Zash> Tobias: How will that help threading?
[21:43:51] <Tobias> Zash, i'm sure conversations are easier when less people are talking to each other
[21:48:16] <MattJ> Tobias, Twitter's user growth is has been slowing for some time, and they're worried about it
[21:48:34] <MattJ> Also, fewer users are signing up to their service
[21:49:08] <Tobias> i guess they still won't be happy if every internet accesible user and every company on earth had an account
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[22:03:34] <bear> @lance that talk is *awesome* - thanks for spotting it
[22:03:55] <bear> and I think xmpp is part of the 20% they ended the talk with
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[22:10:57] <stpeter> looks like an interesting talk, indeed - flagged for later reading :-)
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[22:15:25] <Zash> Does a recording of the actual talking exist?
[22:17:35] <Lance> Zash: https://vimeo.com/145022543
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[22:21:08] <Zash> Thanks Lance
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[22:21:42] <Flow> Tobias: yeah, I'm this year likely not going to be able to attend the Summit. I plan to attend the Chemnitz Linux Tage with Georg and Daniel. Feel free to join us. :)
[22:21:54] <Tobias> Flow, when are those?
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[22:22:33] <Flow> 19/20 March
[22:22:35] <Flow> https://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2016/en
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[22:23:24] <Flow> I wish XEP diffs would be like that: http://spec.commonmark.org/0.22/changes.html
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[23:09:40] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
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