Thursday, January 21, 2016
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[10:19:02] *** sezuan shows as "away" and his status message is "Lunch!"
[10:19:51] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[10:29:51] *** Flow shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[12:32:27] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
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[12:47:37] <Link Mauve> Flow, what’s the rationale for having moved everything out of signcrypt, in OX?
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[12:54:06] <Flow> Link Mauve: please define "everything" :)
[12:54:40] <Link Mauve> Err, not out, more like moved the attributes to elements.
[12:54:50] <Flow> ahh I assumed that is what you meant
[12:55:09] <Flow> short answer: because you can't have multiple attributes with the same name
[12:55:20] <Link Mauve> And you want to, in this case?
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[12:55:32] <Flow> and we want to be able to specify multiple recipients
[12:55:51] <Flow> so the initial idea was to <signcrypt to='foo@bar.com' to='baz@bar.com'>
[12:55:55] <Flow> but that's not valid xml
[12:56:08] <Flow> so now we have <signcrypt ...><to .../><to .../>...
[12:56:29] <Link Mauve> Oh, the <to/> are there to list every recipient that can decrypt?
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[12:57:24] <Flow> Link Mauve: Yes "OpenPGP content elements MUST possess at least one 'to' ..." and "The 'to' element(s) MUST have a 'jid' attribute which contains the intended recipient's XMPP address..."
[12:57:56] <Link Mauve> s/recipient's/recipients'/ then.
[12:58:13] <Flow> RFC 4880 already allows multiple recipients and there is no reasion to restrict an OX OpenPGP content element to one
[12:58:16] <Link Mauve> So should there always be a <to/> for yourself?
[12:58:22] <Link Mauve> Always?
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[12:58:32] <Flow> Link Mauve: I don't think so
[12:58:45] <Flow> The encrypt to self is to allow users to read their own send messages
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[12:59:27] <Flow> The <to/> in OpenPGP content elements is there to prevent attacks where the message is send by an attacker to a third party
[12:59:38] <Flow> which was not the intended recipient in the first place
[12:59:57] <Link Mauve> It might be useful to define what to do if you (the recipient) don’t match any of the <to/>.
[13:00:28] <Flow> Link Mauve: I think what we have in OX § 3.2 is sufficient right now
[13:00:37] <Flow> You can't specify what an implementation should to if the verification fails
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[13:02:07] <Flow> If I wouild ask you what you plan to do in profanity, and then I would ask daniel what he plans to do in conversations, I would likely get two different answers.
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[13:02:20] <Link Mauve> poezio* :)
[13:02:26] <Link Mauve> Actually, just slixmpp for now.
[13:02:38] <Flow> Link Mauve: Uhh, sorry.
[13:02:43] <Flow> Isn't the profanity dev also here?
[13:03:32] <Link Mauve> I know the mcabber dev is here, coucou McKael.
[13:03:51] <Link Mauve> Also the primitivus dev is here, coucou goffi.
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[13:05:43] <Flow> Link Mauve: Are you going to the Summit/FOSDEM?
[13:05:49] <Link Mauve> Sure. :)
[13:06:01] <Link Mauve> Will miss the first morning of Summit though. :(
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[13:06:21] <goffi> I need to check this OX stuff, it can be interesting for our private blog feature
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[13:12:12] <mathieui> afaik the profanity dev is boothj5, and he’s not here
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[13:20:29] <Ge0rG> am I reading OX right, that the <openpgp> element contains base64-encoded xml elements?
[13:21:22] <Flow> Ge0rG: no base64 encoded RFC 4880 messages which contain an encrypted and/or signed UTF-8 string which contains XML.
[13:21:41] <Flow> bbl
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[13:21:59] <Ge0rG> maybe section 3 should more clearly state that, and provide a rationale
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[13:24:29] <Flow> a rationale for?
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[13:25:34] <Ge0rG> a rationale for putting base64-encoded xml into xml.
[13:25:54] <Flow> But that's not the case
[13:25:59] <Ge0rG> besides, there is no format specification in section 3, and only a brief examle of one of the three use cases
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[13:27:32] <Flow> I admit that § 3.1 format specification is not very well written, but it is there: "The text content <openpgp/> (BASE64_OPENPGP_MESSAGE) is a Base64 encoded, as specified in RFC 4648 [3] § 4, OpenPGP message which contains an encrypted and/or signed UTF-8 encoded string. Note that OpenPGP's ASCII armor is not used, instead the XMPP client MUST encode the raw OpenPGP message, as specified in RFC 4880 [4], using Base64. This string MUST represent exactly one OpenPGP content element, that is either a <signcrypt/>, a <sign/> or a <crypt/> extension element qualified by the 'urn:xmpp:openpgp:0' namespace."
[13:28:37] <Ge0rG> also why use base64 over ascii armor?
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[13:29:28] <Flow> because we encode the OpenPGP message
[13:29:36] <Ge0rG> "This string MUST represent ..." maybe "correspond to" would be a better wording.
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[13:33:42] <Ge0rG> the OpenPGP message format also encodes whether it's a signed/encrypted message and which key-ids it is encrypted for. Why is this data duplicated inside?
[13:34:20] <Flow> key-ids != jids
[13:34:35] <Zash> wat
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[13:34:50] <Zash> Ge0rG: I thougt "ascii armor" was base64?
[13:34:52] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, it looks like base64 is used INSTEAD of ascii armor, not over it?
[13:35:03] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: that's what I intended to say
[13:36:27] <Flow> and as for <signcrypt/>, <sign/> and <crypt>, for one, it is a fail safe, if an implementation constructs a <signcrypt/> message, because it wants to send a signed and encrtyped message, but only encrypts it using OpenPGP
[13:37:42] <Ge0rG> Zash: yes, but with dashes and headers added.
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[13:39:24] <moparisthebest> oh so is it the same as the old spec? ascii armor stripped of whitespace and headers?
[13:39:29] <Ge0rG> Flow: how should a client receiving such a failed message behave?
[13:39:54] <Flow> Ge0rG: What woud you suggest?
[13:40:01] <moparisthebest> explosions
[13:40:09] <Flow> atomic ones?
[13:40:19] <moparisthebest> I was thinking more firecracker-like
[13:40:25] <Flow> uhh :(
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[13:41:28] <Flow> Ge0rG: Link Mauve asked a similar question just before you today. I don't have an answer other then "it should consider the message as unverified", and I don't think a spec should specify what a client should/must do if a message is unverified.
[13:41:32] <Zash> Light the thermite failsafe device
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[13:41:44] <moparisthebest> clients don't do nearly the same with with current pgp if decryption fails, I was messing around with this yesterday with a command-line pgp-capable sendxmpp command
[13:42:14] <Flow> moparisthebest: "don't do nearly the same"?
[13:42:20] <moparisthebest> conversations displays "can't decrypt, maybe you don't have the right private key?" even when 'encrypted content' is 'bla'
[13:42:47] <moparisthebest> and gajim sometimes displays the content of <body>, and sometimes shows no indication of having received a message at all
[13:43:01] <Flow> ahh
[13:43:24] <moparisthebest> Flow, I'm saying they aren't consistent in what they do when receiving bad pgp encrypted messages
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[13:45:05] <moparisthebest> it would be nice if they were somewhat consistent though, I don't like gajim just dropping messages silently
[13:45:25] <moparisthebest> you probably don't want to specify what exactly they should say, maybe you could just specify they should inform the user in some way?
[13:45:39] <Ge0rG> what about sending an error back?
[13:46:01] <Ge0rG> though what do you do if a client (of multiple) just doesn't have the right key?
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[13:46:31] <Ge0rG> Flow: by not having the redundancy, one could prevent the existence of these border cases.
[13:46:41] <Flow> Ge0rG: error as response of a presence has the potential for a presence leak, but if you check before sending that the entity has access to your presence anyway, then yes why not
[13:46:45] <moparisthebest> and they could *get* the key later, due to the nature of pgp
[13:47:08] <moparisthebest> like I set up conversations on a new phone and haven't set up openkeychain yet
[13:47:17] <Ge0rG> sending an error as a response to a malformed message doesn't seem too far-reached
[13:47:36] <moparisthebest> and do you still send the error back when you are retrieving with MAM ?
[13:47:56] <Flow> Ge0rG: I think a bad programmer is more likely to be able to construct an XML string prefixed with <signcrypt/>, <crypt/> and <sign/> then to use a OpenPGP library correctly
[13:47:56] <moparisthebest> or do all your devices receiving the carbon send messages?
[13:48:49] <Flow> So it's not about removinga border case, but about having a fail safe for this case
[13:48:52] <moparisthebest> there might be a difference to what you do if you don't have a key vs not-pgp, I'm not sure it'd be a problem outside of development
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[13:52:20] <Ge0rG> Flow: I think that adding this redundancy creates the border cases in the first place
[13:52:59] <Ge0rG> "in the range of tenth of kilobytes" --> "in the range of tens of kilobytes" I suppose
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[13:55:36] <Ge0rG> the timestamp is redundant as well.
[13:56:24] <Flow> Yep
[13:56:37] <Ge0rG> so a client may receive a message with three (different) timestamps. XEP-203, openpgp and <time>
[13:56:46] <Ge0rG> which one do you display?
[13:57:14] <Flow> I would display <time>
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[13:58:54] <xnyhps> Ge0rG: And possibly timestamps added by multiple different servers. ;)
[14:00:40] <Flow> xnyhps: Which remindes me, I wanted to reply to your latest mail on standards@
[14:01:34] <xnyhps> Timestamps are quite messy because it's not easy to say who to trust in general.
[14:01:43] <Flow> I'd be interested in persuing the added:by approach
[14:01:51] <Flow> And from what I can read, daniel too
[14:02:09] <Flow> I'd like to hear from some more server guys what they think about it
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[14:03:33] <Flow> I believe most of the business rules from xep359 could go into the added:by xep
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[14:13:34] <xnyhps> Flow: Some of them, yeah
[14:14:28] <xnyhps> Still not sure the complexity is really worth it.
[14:15:02] <Flow> xnyhps: That's basically why I didn't replly initially
[14:16:47] <xnyhps> My main reason was that the things the server strips might have changed between when the message was originally sent and when the client received it (from MAM), but as long as servers also strip messages outgoing on MAM that's not a problem.
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[14:59:33] <Link Mauve> Flow, might be useful to add a section about what to do if there are e.g. both an openpgp and a body element in a message or presence (iq obviously can’t have that).
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[15:41:41] <Flow> Link Mauve: Hmmm, undecided, I personally don't think it is necessary
[15:41:47] <Flow> but patches welcome :)
[15:42:48] <Flow> XMPP-IM neither specifies what to do when a message with two <body/> arrives
[15:43:02] <Flow> (or maybe it does and I don't remember)
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[16:20:44] <Ge0rG> Flow: "For example, direct child elements found in either <signcrypt/>, <sign/> and <crypt/> could be:
" <- shouldn't that read "For example, <payload/> child elements..."?
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[16:22:26] <Flow> Ge0rG: Thanks, that is a leftover from the attribute to elements migration
[16:22:33] <Flow> fixing right now
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[16:23:33] <Ge0rG> Flow: also s/my/by/ in the §8.3 text
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[16:24:49] <Flow> fixed
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[16:30:10] <Ge0rG> Flow: the link from §6.1 to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4880#section-5.5.2 talks about key packets, not about message formats
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[17:02:50] <Ge0rG> I hope I didn't kill the OX thread with my long response.
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[17:04:43] *** Ashley Ward shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:05:01] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:05:04] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[17:05:42] *** daniel has left the room
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[17:06:54] <Link Mauve> Given the date, I’d even say the opposite. :)
[17:08:03] *** daniel has left the room
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[17:09:01] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[17:09:30] *** fippo has joined the room
[17:09:50] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: oh, right. I've been on holiday and missed it. Just found the time to read up, and the messages all were "new" to me
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[17:13:25] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[17:15:22] *** Ashley Ward shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:17:01] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[17:18:25] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:18:58] *** foss81405971 has joined the room
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[17:20:40] *** Lance shows as "online"
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[17:36:30] *** dwd shows as "online"
[17:37:01] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[17:37:01] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[17:37:53] *** dwd has left the room
[17:37:56] *** dwd shows as "online"
[17:40:28] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[17:41:24] *** dwd has left the room
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[17:44:00] *** dwd shows as "online"
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[17:46:30] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
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[17:55:23] *** SouL shows as "away" and his status message is "Zzz.."
[17:55:23] *** SouL shows as "away" and his status message is "Zzz.."
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[17:57:17] *** SouL shows as "away" and his status message is "Zzz.."
[17:57:17] *** SouL shows as "away" and his status message is "Zzz.."
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[17:58:02] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
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[18:06:30] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
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[18:07:07] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[18:13:51] *** SouL shows as "away" and his status message is "Zzz.."
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[18:20:25] *** dwd shows as "online"
[18:24:09] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm available. (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:26:14] *** Lance has joined the room
[18:26:15] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:26:32] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[18:26:41] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[18:27:45] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[18:27:45] *** arty shows as "online"
[18:27:59] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available."
[18:30:08] *** Lance has joined the room
[18:30:09] *** Lance shows as "online"
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[18:31:07] *** Alex shows as "online"
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[18:34:40] *** Holger has joined the room
[18:35:36] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm available. (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:43:46] *** waqas has left the room
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[18:45:10] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[18:45:42] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "xa" and his status message is "I'm available. (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:04:12] *** Flow has joined the room
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[19:15:17] *** dwd shows as "online"
[19:22:31] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available."
[19:27:15] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm available. (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:28:40] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[19:28:41] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[19:29:08] *** dwd has left the room
[19:29:42] *** dwd shows as "online"
[19:30:07] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available."
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[19:39:46] <Flow> Ge0rG: it's just an example of packets where v4 must be used. The most important one, but just an example
[19:40:30] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm available. (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:43:32] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[19:43:32] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[19:45:54] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[19:50:14] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "xa" and his status message is "I'm available. (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[19:55:07] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[19:55:07] *** arty shows as "online"
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[20:03:45] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[20:04:33] *** draft9 has left the room
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[20:06:26] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[20:06:26] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[20:07:13] *** soul has left the room
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[20:10:55] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[20:13:17] *** dwd shows as "online"
[20:13:45] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[20:13:46] *** Lance shows as "online"
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[20:15:57] *** dwd shows as "online"
[20:16:16] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available."
[20:18:05] *** bear shows as "away"
[20:18:14] *** Ashley Ward shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[20:21:50] *** arty shows as "online"
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[20:24:00] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[20:24:15] *** Ashley Ward shows as "online"
[20:24:59] *** Lance shows as "away"
[20:25:15] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online" and his status message is "Was meint Söder damit, Flüchtlinge sollten "nach unseren Sitten" leben? Sollen sie ihre Unterkünfte selbst anzünden?"
[20:29:25] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[20:29:30] *** Alex shows as "online"
[20:32:10] *** Kev has joined the room
[20:32:12] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:33:18] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm available. (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:35:28] *** Tobias has joined the room
[20:35:29] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[20:39:47] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[20:39:51] *** Alex shows as "online"
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[20:43:23] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "xa" and his status message is "I'm available. (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[20:49:37] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[20:49:37] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[20:49:51] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[20:50:01] *** Alex shows as "online"
[20:52:51] *** dwd has left the room
[20:53:47] *** dwd shows as "online"
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[20:54:41] *** dwd shows as "online"
[20:57:16] *** Zash shows as "away"
[21:00:19] *** intosi has joined the room
[21:02:06] *** bear shows as "online"
[21:02:31] *** Zash shows as "online"
[21:07:02] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[21:07:10] *** dwd has left the room
[21:07:14] *** dwd shows as "online"
[21:07:42] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[21:11:27] *** dwd shows as "online"
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[21:13:36] *** Kev shows as "away"
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[21:13:52] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:15:02] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[21:18:35] *** Alex has left the room
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[21:20:58] *** Alex has joined the room
[21:21:48] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[21:21:55] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[21:22:48] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[21:22:48] *** arty shows as "online"
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[21:24:14] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:25:02] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[21:35:30] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available."
[21:37:37] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:37:39] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:37:40] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[21:37:41] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:39:11] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:39:31] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:40:46] *** dwd has left the room
[21:40:47] *** dwd has left the room
[21:41:01] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:41:08] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm available. (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:41:28] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:43:26] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:44:06] *** Tobias has joined the room
[21:44:08] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[21:47:02] *** Ashley Ward shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:49:06] *** goffi has joined the room
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[21:51:09] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "xa" and his status message is "I'm available. (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:52:21] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:52:22] *** Ashley Ward shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:53:06] *** dwd has joined the room
[21:53:44] *** dwd shows as "online"
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[21:56:44] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:58:44] *** bear shows as "away"
[22:02:16] *** Tobias has left the room
[22:02:17] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[22:02:29] *** Tobias has joined the room
[22:02:32] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[22:04:57] *** Lance shows as "online"
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[22:06:01] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[22:06:01] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[22:06:21] *** tim@boese-ban.de has joined the room
[22:07:28] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:07:41] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[22:07:41] *** arty shows as "online"
[22:08:05] *** ThUnD3r|Gr33n shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available."
[22:08:50] *** dwd has left the room
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[22:10:49] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[22:12:21] *** dwd shows as "online"
[22:12:42] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:18:25] *** thorsten shows as "online"
[22:18:28] *** Zash shows as "away"
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[22:20:41] *** Ashley Ward has left the room
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[22:32:41] *** Lance shows as "online"
[22:33:27] *** Zash shows as "online"
[22:35:19] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:38:45] *** intosi has joined the room
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[22:43:55] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[22:45:46] *** Lance shows as "online"
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[22:50:05] *** daniel has left the room
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[22:52:26] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[22:55:07] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:58:40] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:00:38] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[23:01:38] *** Kev shows as "away"
[23:03:45] *** boothj5 has joined the room
[23:04:44] *** Zash shows as "online"
[23:05:41] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:08:42] *** boothj5 has left the room
[23:10:00] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[23:10:15] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[23:13:10] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[23:15:10] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:15:27] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[23:22:15] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[23:22:41] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[23:26:10] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:27:14] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:31:09] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:31:45] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:38:09] *** andy shows as "online"
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