Wednesday, May 18, 2016
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[11:19:18] *** winfried shows as "online"
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[12:05:59] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[12:06:00] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[12:06:11] *** Tobias shows as "away"
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[12:06:25] *** Ashley Ward shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[12:29:56] *** Ashley Ward shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:29:56] *** Ashley Ward shows as "online"
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[12:33:12] *** mhterres shows as "away" and his status message is "Não estou aqui no momento"
[12:33:12] *** mhterres shows as "away" and his status message is "Não estou aqui no momento"
[12:33:14] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:33:57] *** mhterres shows as "away" and his status message is "Não estou aqui no momento"
[12:33:57] *** mhterres shows as "online"
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[12:38:21] *** Alex has joined the room
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[12:39:59] *** mhterres shows as "away" and his status message is "Não estou aqui no momento"
[12:39:59] *** mhterres shows as "away" and his status message is "Não estou aqui no momento"
[12:41:42] *** Ashley Ward has joined the room
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[12:46:38] *** mhterres shows as "away" and his status message is "Não estou aqui no momento"
[12:46:39] *** mhterres shows as "online"
[12:47:46] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[12:48:10] *** Flow shows as "online"
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[14:59:55] <moparisthebest> if only we could make XMPP use this new cipher "We created a cipher that is 6,000,000 times stronger than current data security, as proven by algorithmic mathematics." https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/datagatekeeper/datagatekeeper-the-first-impenetrable-anti-hacking
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[15:00:09] <moparisthebest> yikes, can anyone read that without cringing? :P
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[15:00:58] <Zash> Not even gonna try
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[15:02:00] <Ge0rG> is it my copy&paste-fu, or is that link a 404?
[15:02:21] <Ge0rG> oh, it's the former.
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[15:02:47] <moparisthebest> you know you want to read it Zash haha
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[15:06:28] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: I wonder if the icon is supposed to represent a trojan horse or my little pony.
[15:06:57] <edhelas> Ge0rG, both
[15:08:17] <Ge0rG> This is the Total Data Protection! /:=O
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[15:20:22] <dwd> That one is so hyperbolic.
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[15:59:31] <edhelas> XMPP Compliance Suites 2016 <3
[15:59:50] <edhelas> would be really nice to have the validation system to promote the apps that are compatibles
[16:00:05] <SamWhited> Just updated to add a mobile compliance suite as well; suggestions for what should go in it are welcome: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/185
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[16:01:44] <SamWhited> Probably going to add stream compression, EXI, and push notifications at least at various levels.
[16:01:53] <edhelas> For Movim it's a bit weird actually, because I'm not really a web client, but not a "IM" client as well
[16:02:15] <SamWhited> Is movim that social networking thing?
[16:02:15] <Zash> SamWhited: Don't we consider stream compression horribly insecure nowdays?
[16:02:30] <edhelas> SamWhited, yup
[16:02:42] <edhelas> basically it's a "webmail" but for XMPP
[16:02:43] <SamWhited> Zash: probably, I don't buy it though as long as you do a full flush on stanza boundaries
[16:03:01] <SamWhited> I don't buy that it's a problem, that is.
[16:03:35] <SamWhited> I guess that will probably come up when the discussion about moving it forward happens though, so good to start thinking about.
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[16:04:52] <Zash> Well it's gone from the next Prosody fwiw
[16:05:09] <Holger> SamWhited: I don't know whether or not it's a problem, but it doesn't sound essential for interop/UX to me.
[16:05:34] <SamWhited> Holger: It helps a lot on mobile when you have a X000 person roster.
[16:06:00] <Holger> You have too many friends.
[16:06:24] <Zash> SamWhited: Even with various CSI optimizations?
[16:06:28] <Link Mauve> edhelas, Movim definitely is both a web client and an IM client.
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[16:06:40] <SamWhited> Coworkers, but yah, we (Atlassian) aren't even one of our (HipChat's) bigger groups.
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[16:07:00] <SamWhited> Zash: Not sure about that; wish I could convince them to let me deploy my implementation.
[16:07:38] <edhelas> Link Mauve, yeah but all the XMPP part is done server side, with a stable and good Internet connection
[16:07:56] <SamWhited> edhelas: Does Movim not make an XMPP connection to the server?
[16:08:21] <edhelas> Holger, I have ~300 contacts in my roster, some clients really have issues to process it :p
[16:08:37] <edhelas> SamWhited, it does but server side, basically you have
[16:09:09] <edhelas> User Browser <- HTML + Websocket -> Web Server <- Pure XMPP TCP/TLS -> XMPP Server
[16:09:09] <Holger> edhelas: I guess compression won't help those clients though :-)
[16:09:15] <SamWhited> edhelas: Yah, if it makes an XMPP connection to the server, I'd say that means it fits in the web compliance category (in the sense that you'll need either BOSH or websockets to connect, and you'll have to implement the XMPP subprotocol of one or the other presumably)
[16:09:29] <Link Mauve> 315 here, and my main client is really slow at processing their presence. ^^'
[16:09:43] <SamWhited> Unless your HTML+Websocket connection isn't XMPP? I'm still confused.
[16:09:54] <Holger> Everyone has more friends than me.
[16:10:00] <edhelas> no it's pure "web" websocket, there is no XMPP at all browser side
[16:10:16] <edhelas> as I said, Movim is a "webmail" for XMPP
[16:10:20] <SamWhited> Oh yah, wouldn't apply then I guess
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[16:10:51] <dwd> FWIW, compression is fine and perfectly safe in some cases; but they're oddball ones.
[16:11:06] <edhelas> ok :p
[16:12:33] <edhelas> Link Mauve, roster + presence processing need to be really well doneif you have a huge roster. It took me some time to have nice performance on Movim, now it process the ~500 stanza of the login in less than 1sec. All in pure PHP :)
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[16:13:13] <edhelas> the roster is actually read in one time and saved in one request in the DB
[16:13:37] <SamWhited> As it should be. If you ever find yourself writing "for whatever { dbcall }" you're probably doing it wrong.
[16:14:05] <SamWhited> Build the query, then execute, or you're going to have scaling problems later :)
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[16:16:16] <Link Mauve> edhelas, I expect your parsing to be way less heavy than slixmpp’s. :)
[16:16:22] <Link Mauve> Also, Python is slow.
[16:16:25] <mathieui> :D
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[16:47:12] <Flow> I still consider stream compression essential for mobile connections
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[16:48:35] <Flow> Also I've been working on Smack droping the compression dict state, not only stanza boundary, but on channel change. Where "channel change" means that the recipient bare jid has changed. I believe that this is the best trade-off between security and efficiency
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[16:49:15] <Flow> Happy to be proven otherwhise and told if this still would be a security issue
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[16:50:54] <SamWhited> What Flow said ⤴
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[16:53:49] <Flow> s/not only stanza boundary/not on stanza boundaries/
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[16:54:20] <Flow> the idea is that you can keep the compression dict state as long as you are sending stanzas to the same entity
[16:54:24] <Link Mauve> I’d be interested in having that in Prosody.
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[16:54:51] <Link Mauve> Especially for s2s, since broadcasting a stanza to many people is very slow on ADSL.
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[16:55:29] <Link Mauve> And very often you send many stanzas to the same server in a row.
[16:55:40] <Link Mauve> Even better, many similar stanzas.
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[17:14:22] <xnyhps> Compressing single stanzas could allow attackers to discover your real JID to others in semi-anonymous rooms if they can observe the encrypted stanza size.
[17:14:32] <xnyhps> s/to others/
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[17:15:16] <xnyhps> But that's very little payoff for how much access you need.
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[17:24:36] <Flow> xnyhps: So no big worries with having compression this way from your side?
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[17:25:58] <xnyhps> You can't easily detect if the server is doing the same, so I still think it's a bad idea.
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[17:30:29] <Flow> well we coud register a new compression algo like 'zlib-secure'
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[17:38:24] <xnyhps> I still think you can win a lot more (and actually reduce processing time and information leakage) by making sure stanzas that are sent simultaneously get into the same TLS record.
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[17:42:55] <xnyhps> With any relatively modern ciphersuite there's at least 41 bytes of overhead per record, the maximum would be ~85 bytes with AES-CBC + SHA384.
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[18:01:09] <SamWhited> Agree about sticking stanzas in the same TLS record, but I very much doubt you can convince most clients (or servers, for that matter) to try and optimize at that level. Would love to be proven wrong though (hint, hint, client/server developers)
[18:02:00] <SamWhited> I'm not sure a zlib-secure algo is needed; just require it in the spec in general and if you implement that version of the spec assume it's being done.
[18:02:18] <SamWhited> (if it's not being done, that's a bug but it could equally not actually be happening if they advertised zlib-secure or something)
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[18:32:18] *** mark.erd has joined the room
[18:32:59] *** Sonny shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:34:17] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[18:34:20] *** Alex shows as "online"
[18:35:27] *** intosi shows as "online"
[18:40:16] *** intosi shows as "online"
[18:40:18] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[18:44:20] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[18:52:10] *** Zash has left the room
[18:53:20] *** intosi shows as "online"
[18:57:04] *** Alex shows as "online"
[18:57:20] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[18:59:33] *** mark.erd has left the room
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[19:02:23] *** intosi shows as "online"
[19:03:59] *** McKael shows as "online"
[19:10:02] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[19:16:24] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:17:00] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:17:05] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:19:31] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:19:42] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[19:19:54] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:24:48] *** Sonny has left the room
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[19:27:04] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[19:28:28] *** Sonny shows as "online"
[19:29:42] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:30:53] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[19:30:54] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[19:32:20] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[19:37:06] *** McKael shows as "online"
[19:39:27] *** stpeter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[19:40:34] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:40:34] *** intosi shows as "online"
[19:41:23] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:41:49] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:42:51] *** google-is-lord has joined the room
[19:43:52] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:48:09] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:48:10] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:48:12] *** lloyd has left the room
[19:48:24] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:48:26] *** bjc shows as "online"
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[19:48:56] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[19:49:10] *** Sonny shows as "online"
[19:50:04] *** kalkin has joined the room
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[19:50:33] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[19:52:40] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[19:54:34] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:55:28] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:00:05] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:00:10] *** arty has joined the room
[20:00:13] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:04:23] *** google-is-lord has joined the room
[20:04:23] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:05:03] *** mhterres has left the room
[20:10:00] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:11:12] *** intosi shows as "online"
[20:11:26] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:11:40] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:12:25] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[20:12:35] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:13:00] *** intosi shows as "online"
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[20:17:56] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[20:17:56] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[20:22:18] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:25:29] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[20:25:37] *** Neustradamus has joined the room
[20:25:38] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:26:13] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[20:26:13] *** arty shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[20:26:49] *** Sonny has left the room
[20:26:59] *** Sonny shows as "online"
[20:29:06] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:29:17] *** andrey.utkin shows as "online"
[20:30:03] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:31:26] *** intosi shows as "online"
[20:32:24] *** Sonny has left the room
[20:32:29] *** intosi shows as "online"
[20:32:54] *** Sonny shows as "online"
[20:33:40] *** lloyd has joined the room
[20:34:05] *** ralphm has left the room
[20:34:35] *** intosi shows as "online"
[20:36:04] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[20:36:24] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:39:32] *** andrey.utkin shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:40:28] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[20:41:52] *** andrey.utkin shows as "online"
[20:43:38] <Tobias> stpeter, what are the plans for https://github.com/stpeter/xmppdotnet/ ? expanding the team that processes those PRs?
[20:44:02] *** Kev shows as "away"
[20:46:33] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:48:39] *** winfried shows as "online"
[20:50:08] *** intosi shows as "online"
[20:55:14] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:55:55] *** Ashley Ward has joined the room
[20:56:58] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[20:56:58] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[21:00:00] *** Ashley Ward shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:00:00] *** Ashley Ward shows as "online"
[21:01:00] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:03:52] *** intosi shows as "online"
[21:06:37] *** Sonny shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:10:32] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[21:10:42] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[21:12:10] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[21:12:14] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[21:15:27] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[21:16:01] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[21:16:19] *** stpeter has left the room
[21:22:22] *** intosi shows as "online"
[21:28:34] *** Ashley Ward shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:28:35] *** Ashley Ward shows as "online"
[21:30:00] *** intosi shows as "online"
[21:33:10] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[21:40:04] *** intosi shows as "online"
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[21:45:28] *** Kev shows as "away"
[21:50:06] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[21:52:27] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[21:52:35] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[21:53:30] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[21:53:39] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[21:54:34] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:55:16] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:04:15] *** dwd has joined the room
[22:15:10] *** Ashley Ward has left the room
[22:16:47] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:16:47] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:16:51] *** bjc shows as "online"
[22:16:52] *** bjc shows as "online"
[22:19:54] *** dwd has left the room
[22:22:06] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[22:30:02] *** andrey.utkin shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:32:10] *** andrey.utkin shows as "online"
[22:35:16] *** dwd has joined the room
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[22:37:38] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[22:37:39] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:43:22] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[22:43:23] *** Tobias shows as "away"
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[23:00:35] *** kalkin has left the room
[23:00:40] *** kalkin has joined the room
[23:02:11] *** andrey.utkin has left the room
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[23:04:28] *** Holger has left the room
[23:04:36] *** Holger has joined the room
[23:04:42] *** andrey.utkin has joined the room
[23:05:27] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[23:07:04] *** andrey.utkin shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:08:34] *** andrey.utkin shows as "online"
[23:09:32] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[23:12:06] *** Sonny has left the room
[23:14:46] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:14:47] *** bjc shows as "online"
[23:22:14] *** andrey.utkin shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:22:45] *** dwd has left the room
[23:22:57] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[23:23:18] *** bjc has left the room
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[23:29:14] *** andrey.utkin shows as "online"
[23:31:35] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[23:34:01] *** dwd has left the room
[23:34:47] *** Sonny has left the room
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[23:37:08] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:43:30] *** andrey.utkin shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:45:19] *** intosi has joined the room
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[23:53:30] *** andrey.utkin shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:56:35] *** Kev has left the room
[23:56:35] *** Kev shows as "online"
[23:56:36] *** stpeter has left the room
[23:56:37] *** Kev shows as "online"