Wednesday, January 18, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
January
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
            1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16
17 18
19 20 21 22
23
24
25 26 27 28 29
30 31          
XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:06:47] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[00:06:58] *** lonerz has joined the room
[00:08:07] *** Guus has left the room
[00:08:08] *** Guus has joined the room
[00:08:10] *** dwd shows as "online"
[00:18:15] *** narcode shows as "away"
[00:24:12] *** goffi has left the room
[00:37:15] *** waqas has joined the room
[00:37:17] *** waqas has left the room
[00:39:55] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[00:41:19] *** Guus has left the room
[00:41:20] *** Guus has joined the room
[00:45:33] *** lonerz has left the room
[00:51:25] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[01:12:42] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[01:13:08] *** arc has left the room
[01:13:10] *** arc has joined the room
[01:16:18] *** Alex has left the room
[01:22:42] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[01:24:59] *** daurnimator shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[01:25:59] *** lonerz has joined the room
[01:28:51] *** lonerz shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[01:29:15] *** daurnimator shows as "online"
[01:36:00] *** intosi has joined the room
[01:37:44] *** lonerz shows as "online"
[01:40:14] *** lonerz shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[01:41:58] *** lonerz shows as "online"
[01:43:04] *** daurnimator has left the room
[01:43:06] *** daurnimator shows as "online"
[01:43:16] *** lonerz shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[01:46:41] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[01:47:19] *** daurnimator shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[01:48:35] *** daurnimator shows as "online"
[01:49:50] *** daurnimator has left the room
[01:49:52] *** daurnimator shows as "online"
[01:51:55] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[01:53:17] *** lonerz shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[01:54:32] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[01:54:32] *** intosi has left the room
[02:16:36] *** xnyhps has left the room
[02:21:56] *** arc has left the room
[02:21:56] *** arc has joined the room
[02:25:36] *** bra shows as "online"
[02:34:11] *** lonerz shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[02:36:29] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[02:36:44] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "В столовую"
[02:37:37] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[02:42:38] *** Lance shows as "away"
[02:43:15] *** lonerz shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[02:43:46] *** lonerz shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[02:44:45] *** Lance shows as "online"
[02:48:59] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[02:55:23] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[03:01:26] *** pep. has left the room
[03:01:28] *** pep. shows as "online"
[03:01:59] *** lonerz shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[03:02:01] *** lonerz shows as "online"
[03:03:19] *** Alex has joined the room
[03:05:46] *** lonerz shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[03:06:54] *** lonerz shows as "online"
[03:13:16] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[03:13:20] *** Alex shows as "online"
[03:15:23] *** bra shows as "xa" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[03:23:20] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[03:29:46] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[03:35:28] *** bra shows as "online"
[03:43:20] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[03:47:07] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[04:07:07] *** bra shows as "xa" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[04:30:12] *** mancho has joined the room
[04:32:56] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[04:33:27] *** Sonny has left the room
[04:33:44] *** Sonny shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[04:37:15] *** arc has left the room
[04:37:16] *** arc has joined the room
[04:46:21] *** Guus has left the room
[04:46:22] *** Guus has joined the room
[04:49:17] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[04:51:36] *** jjjppp has joined the room
[04:54:39] *** Guus has left the room
[04:54:41] *** Guus has joined the room
[04:57:53] *** bra shows as "online"
[05:04:48] *** Guus has left the room
[05:04:49] *** Guus has joined the room
[05:11:13] *** lonerz shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:11:31] *** SamWhited has left the room
[05:11:33] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[05:14:55] *** Lance has joined the room
[05:14:56] *** Lance shows as "online"
[05:18:21] *** Lance has left the room
[05:21:14] *** lonerz shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:24:42] *** Guus has left the room
[05:24:44] *** Guus has joined the room
[05:39:55] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[05:40:06] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[05:40:44] *** lonerz shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:40:44] *** lonerz shows as "online"
[05:40:50] *** Yagiza has left the room
[05:42:44] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[05:42:49] *** Yagiza has left the room
[05:43:20] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[05:43:33] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[05:43:59] *** Yagiza has left the room
[05:44:04] *** Valerian has joined the room
[05:45:01] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[05:47:49] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[05:48:57] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[05:52:31] *** arc has left the room
[05:53:17] *** Yagiza has left the room
[05:53:19] *** bra shows as "online"
[05:55:57] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[05:56:10] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[05:56:15] *** arc has joined the room
[05:58:41] *** Yagiza has left the room
[06:03:30] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[06:06:17] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[06:06:28] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[06:07:08] *** Yagiza has left the room
[06:07:19] *** winfried shows as "online"
[06:07:19] *** bra shows as "online"
[06:12:23] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[06:12:32] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[06:12:41] *** Yagiza has left the room
[06:14:13] *** daurnimator has left the room
[06:14:14] *** daurnimator shows as "online"
[06:19:50] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[06:23:59] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[06:29:50] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[06:32:34] *** Valerian has left the room
[06:32:35] *** Valerian has joined the room
[06:34:43] *** Holger has left the room
[06:34:48] *** Holger shows as "online"
[06:34:50] *** bra shows as "online"
[06:37:21] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:45:05] *** lonerz has left the room
[06:45:42] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[06:47:01] *** Sonny has left the room
[06:52:29] *** Valerian has left the room
[06:52:30] *** Valerian has joined the room
[06:53:08] *** dwd shows as "online"
[06:54:00] *** xyz has joined the room
[06:55:19] *** Guus has left the room
[06:55:31] *** Guus has joined the room
[06:59:41] *** Guus has left the room
[07:00:15] *** Guus has joined the room
[07:00:19] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:00:35] *** SamWhited has left the room
[07:01:48] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:03:14] *** bra shows as "online"
[07:05:05] *** xyz has left the room
[07:05:11] *** xyz has joined the room
[07:11:48] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:14:50] *** winfried shows as "away"
[07:19:19] <Steve Kille> Putting notes within notes does not seem vital
[07:19:49] <Steve Kille> In the notes list, it would be ideal to sort XEPs in order, so you can quickly check if a given XEP is referenced
[07:21:07] *** ralphm has joined the room
[07:22:05] *** Flow has joined the room
[07:22:36] *** Flow has left the room
[07:22:49] *** xyz has left the room
[07:23:01] *** xyz has joined the room
[07:27:31] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[07:33:58] *** xyz has left the room
[07:34:32] *** lonerz has joined the room
[07:35:15] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:39:12] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[07:39:27] *** winfried shows as "online"
[07:40:32] *** Kev shows as "online"
[07:41:33] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[07:41:58] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:42:04] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:43:12] *** dwd shows as "online"
[07:43:41] *** xyz has joined the room
[07:44:51] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:46:50] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:46:50] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:48:41] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:51:00] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[07:52:04] *** bra shows as "online"
[07:52:23] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:53:06] *** Kev shows as "away"
[07:54:04] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:54:44] *** narcode shows as "online"
[07:57:55] *** xyz shows as "online"
[07:57:57] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:57:58] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:57:59] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[07:58:00] *** xyz has left the room
[07:58:07] *** xyz shows as "online"
[07:59:06] *** xyz has left the room
[07:59:12] *** xyz shows as "online"
[07:59:51] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:01:00] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[08:03:00] *** winfried shows as "online"
[08:04:04] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:04:34] *** Lance has joined the room
[08:04:34] *** Lance shows as "online"
[08:05:25] *** jjjppp has left the room
[08:07:19] *** xyz has left the room
[08:07:27] *** xyz shows as "online"
[08:08:57] *** xyz has left the room
[08:09:38] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[08:10:01] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[08:10:56] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:14:23] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[08:15:46] *** lonerz shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[08:16:53] *** lonerz shows as "online"
[08:16:59] *** Flow has joined the room
[08:17:41] *** blipp has left the room
[08:17:44] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[08:17:46] *** blipp has joined the room
[08:17:48] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[08:18:08] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[08:18:19] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[08:18:27] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[08:18:46] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[08:19:33] *** daurnimator has left the room
[08:19:35] *** daurnimator shows as "online"
[08:20:10] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:20:33] *** daurnimator has left the room
[08:20:35] *** daurnimator shows as "online"
[08:21:03] *** daurnimator has left the room
[08:21:07] *** daurnimator shows as "online"
[08:21:46] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[08:21:46] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[08:23:32] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[08:23:39] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:23:42] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:23:43] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:23:43] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:23:44] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:24:02] *** Kev shows as "online"
[08:24:13] *** Lance has left the room
[08:24:32] *** daurnimator has left the room
[08:24:34] *** daurnimator shows as "online"
[08:25:05] *** narcode shows as "away"
[08:25:06] *** xyz has left the room
[08:25:11] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[08:25:12] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[08:25:54] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[08:27:48] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[08:28:28] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[08:28:42] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:28:42] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[08:28:52] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[08:29:16] *** Yagiza has left the room
[08:29:32] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:33:17] *** Holger has left the room
[08:33:29] *** Holger shows as "online"
[08:33:42] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:34:14] *** ralphm has left the room
[08:36:02] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[08:36:50] *** bra shows as "online"
[08:38:06] *** Kev shows as "away"
[08:38:50] *** Holger has left the room
[08:38:59] *** Holger shows as "online"
[08:39:43] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[08:39:56] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[08:40:02] *** Yagiza has left the room
[08:41:01] *** daurnimator has left the room
[08:41:02] *** daurnimator shows as "online"
[08:41:25] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[08:44:18] *** ralphm has joined the room
[08:44:35] *** daurnimator shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:45:28] *** Sonny has left the room
[08:45:30] *** Sonny has joined the room
[08:47:19] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[08:47:21] *** jubalh has joined the room
[08:47:31] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:47:32] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:48:16] *** daurnimator has left the room
[08:48:18] *** daurnimator shows as "online"
[08:49:05] *** xyz has joined the room
[08:49:53] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[08:50:03] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[08:51:12] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:52:11] *** Yagiza has left the room
[08:53:12] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:53:24] *** Alex has left the room
[08:53:30] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:53:31] *** Alex has joined the room
[08:54:35] *** daurnimator shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:55:28] *** xyz has left the room
[08:55:36] *** xyz has joined the room
[08:56:40] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:57:03] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:57:30] *** Vinilox shows as "away"
[08:57:53] *** Valerian has left the room
[08:58:13] *** Vinilox shows as "online"
[08:58:41] *** Valerian has joined the room
[09:00:07] *** xyz has left the room
[09:00:13] *** xyz has joined the room
[09:00:14] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[09:00:37] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:00:47] *** nyco has joined the room
[09:03:44] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:04:50] *** dwd shows as "online"
[09:04:54] *** Vinilox shows as "away"
[09:05:01] *** goffi has joined the room
[09:05:24] *** xyz shows as "online"
[09:07:19] *** bra shows as "xa" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[09:07:54] *** xyz has left the room
[09:10:45] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[09:10:58] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[09:11:01] *** narcode shows as "online"
[09:12:48] *** winfried shows as "away"
[09:13:08] *** Holger has left the room
[09:13:16] *** Holger shows as "online"
[09:13:36] *** Yagiza has left the room
[09:13:57] *** xyz has left the room
[09:14:34] *** xyz has joined the room
[09:18:52] *** Martin has joined the room
[09:19:30] *** Sonny has left the room
[09:19:31] *** Sonny has joined the room
[09:20:20] *** mhterres has joined the room
[09:20:35] *** Vinilox shows as "online"
[09:20:40] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[09:20:42] *** Martin has left the room
[09:21:02] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[09:21:38] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:22:04] *** xyz has left the room
[09:22:24] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[09:22:26] *** Martin has joined the room
[09:22:36] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[09:23:12] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:25:16] *** xyz has joined the room
[09:26:26] *** Yagiza has left the room
[09:28:42] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[09:28:52] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[09:31:31] *** pep. has left the room
[09:31:38] *** pep. shows as "online"
[09:32:22] *** bra shows as "online"
[09:37:00] *** Flow has joined the room
[09:37:35] *** xyz has left the room
[09:37:44] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:41:30] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:43:43] <Flow> Holger: Is that you: https://wiki.diasporafoundation.org/User:Holger ?
[09:45:05] *** Yagiza has left the room
[09:45:10] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[09:45:12] *** xyz has joined the room
[09:47:00] *** Martin shows as "online"
[09:47:31] *** Martin has left the room
[09:48:09] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[09:48:19] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[09:48:30] *** winfried shows as "online"
[09:49:08] *** xyz has left the room
[09:49:18] *** xyz has joined the room
[09:51:27] *** xyz has left the room
[09:51:30] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[09:51:31] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:52:22] *** xyz has joined the room
[09:54:30] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[09:55:21] *** lonerz has left the room
[09:55:35] *** mancho shows as "online"
[09:55:41] *** jubalh has joined the room
[09:56:38] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:57:02] *** lonerz has joined the room
[09:57:04] *** Kev shows as "online"
[09:58:45] *** Flow shows as "online"
[10:03:04] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:03:58] *** xyz has left the room
[10:05:34] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:06:19] *** lonerz has left the room
[10:08:09] *** bra shows as "xa" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[10:08:45] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[10:11:44] *** mancho has left the room
[10:11:51] *** mancho shows as "online"
[10:11:52] *** daniel has left the room
[10:11:58] *** daniel has joined the room
[10:12:41] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[10:14:17] *** jubalh has left the room
[10:15:57] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[10:16:43] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[10:17:41] *** tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[10:17:43] *** tobias_ has joined the room
[10:17:43] *** tobias_ shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[10:18:06] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[10:18:13] *** jubalh has left the room
[10:18:45] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[10:20:18] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[10:22:37] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[10:23:28] *** jubalh has joined the room
[10:24:11] *** bra shows as "online"
[10:24:44] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:28:45] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[10:29:09] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[10:29:25] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:29:25] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:29:49] *** intosi has joined the room
[10:32:45] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:32:46] *** intosi shows as "online"
[10:34:45] *** Flow shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:35:45] *** xyz has joined the room
[10:36:12] <Holger> Flow: Nope, that's someone else.
[10:37:03] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:39:26] *** winfried shows as "online"
[10:40:17] *** kalkin has joined the room
[10:44:43] *** xyz has left the room
[10:46:48] *** xyz has joined the room
[10:49:00] *** xyz has left the room
[10:49:19] *** xyz has joined the room
[10:49:58] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[10:53:41] *** Yagiza has left the room
[10:55:38] *** Yagiza has left the room
[10:56:00] *** xyz has left the room
[11:00:57] *** Flow shows as "online"
[11:01:44] <goffi> Hey, I'm checking python-omemo which use - if I'm not mistaken -, the old oloxotl based method for OMEMO: https://python-omemo.readthedocs.io/en/latest/xep-omemo.html
[11:02:02] <goffi> And I'm really surprised to see that the same namespace is used in current XEP: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0384.html
[11:02:37] <dwd> Axoilotl-based OMEMO was never submitted; but the namespace should probably have been bumped anyway.
[11:02:48] <dwd> Sorry - was submitted, but rejected.
[11:03:03] <daniel> goffi: I think this is actually just the docs that refer to that namespace
[11:03:13] <daniel> The actual implementation uses siacs namespace
[11:03:24] <daniel> As it should if it's using the signal protocol
[11:03:35] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[11:03:47] <daniel> Someone just blindly copied the xep into the docs
[11:04:06] <goffi> daniel: ah ok, that's good then, because if we do an implementation in SàT it will be with the current method (olm), and that will be a big issue with gajim or other using python-omemo
[11:04:14] <goffi> I'll open a ticket
[11:04:38] <Zash> Blindly copying the examples? :)
[11:05:07] <intosi> Examples Considered Harmful
[11:05:29] <mathieui> Zash, nobody does that!
[11:05:37] <Zash> "Considered Harmful" Considered Harmful
[11:06:02] <intosi> Moderated +1, It's True
[11:06:10] *** mancho has left the room
[11:06:20] *** Valerian has left the room
[11:06:21] *** Valerian has joined the room
[11:06:22] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:06:59] *** Valerian has left the room
[11:07:16] <Ge0rG> daniel, you really should move forward with conversations to use the XEP namespace to get rid of the confusion. You'll need to support both anyway for the time being
[11:08:04] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:08:08] <daniel> Ge0rG: we can't just sed the namespace
[11:08:42] <daniel> There is no confusion. Siacs namespace means axolotl. Official namespace means olm
[11:10:46] <Ge0rG> daniel, siacs namespace isn't documented in the XEP, but widely deployed. Now you have created a de-facto standard, which other developers are following.
[11:11:26] <Tobias> Ge0rG, it's documented in the protoxep on the omemo website, not?
[11:11:49] <Flow> still, the current situation is suboptimal
[11:12:05] <Ge0rG> daniel, it's not easy, but it is only going to get harder from here
[11:12:28] <Flow> we have a xep, which either no one is going to implement because it is not what conversations does, or if somebody implements it, he/she would find out that it doesn't work with conversations
[11:12:40] <Flow> what georg said
[11:13:10] <Zash> These things are messy.
[11:13:35] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[11:13:37] <Tobias> Ge0rG, the thing is, there isn't a java lib for Olm yeta
[11:13:41] *** mhterres has left the room
[11:13:49] <Ge0rG> Tobias, I can't imagine how that is not a de-facto standard.
[11:15:16] <daniel> Ge0rG: get me a Java implementation of olm and I can switch pretty quickly. I can also get the majority of the other clients to switch at roughly the same time. I'm in contact with all of them all their libraries are designed with modularity with a switch to olm already in mind
[11:15:50] <daniel> The olm/signal switch is extremly easy from an implementation standpoint
[11:16:00] <Ge0rG> daniel, being a developer myself, I tend not to believe this claim
[11:16:04] <Flow> Is there still a reason to use OLM, now that Moxie put double ratchet into the public domain?
[11:16:27] <daniel> Flow: this is one of the things I'd like to figure out before I do the switch
[11:16:28] <Flow> Why not have OMEMO use https://whispersystems.org/docs/specifications/doubleratchet/ ?
[11:16:44] <daniel> Flow: that's what we are currently checking
[11:16:48] <daniel> If that's feasible
[11:16:50] <Flow> daniel: I hope we can sort this things out at the summit
[11:16:52] <Ge0rG> daniel, you'll need to support both namespaces in order not to break older versions of the code. You can't just "flip the switch"
[11:17:17] <daniel> Ge0rG: hard switch and tell your user to update or gtfo
[11:17:20] <Zash> Someone say Flag Day? :)
[11:17:28] <daniel> I have absolutely no problem doing that
[11:17:56] <Ge0rG> daniel, but your users will. You are going to alternate your core audience.
[11:17:57] <goffi> it would be nice to sort is out yes, if we do an implemention it will be XEP version regardless of existing implementations
[11:17:58] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[11:18:20] <daniel> Ge0rG: when did I ever care about my users
[11:18:20] <Ge0rG> *alienate
[11:18:44] <Ge0rG> daniel, I don't know. But I do care about the users of XMPP.
[11:19:05] <daniel> As long as the other clients are available they can simply upgrade
[11:19:19] <daniel> It's not like upgrading is hard
[11:19:30] *** winfried shows as "online"
[11:19:48] <Zash> daniel: I hear you live in a world without long term support releases.
[11:19:59] <Tobias> there's no problem for Conversations to support axolotl OMEMO and olm OMEMO for a year or so and then dropping the axolotl one...it already supports OMEMO and OTR in parallel
[11:20:02] <Tobias> and GPG IIRC
[11:20:04] *** xyz has joined the room
[11:20:48] <daniel> Zash: if someone pays me to do lts I'll happily do that. For now very few people even pay to provide any support at all
[11:21:03] <Kev> ISTM if daniel is happy for a hard-upgrade, then given this is switching from a 'non-standard' to 'standard' version, that's actually a good thing.
[11:21:52] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:22:51] <Ge0rG> Kev, so your position is standardization over UX? 😛
[11:23:24] <ralphm> Dear summiteers. I just sent an e-mail to the summit@xmpp.org mailinglist about the Summit/FOSDEM hotel. Please read and act on it ASAP.
[11:24:21] *** narcode shows as "away"
[11:25:04] <daniel> Do I have to sign up for the list again if I have been subscribed last year?
[11:25:46] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[11:25:49] *** xyz has left the room
[11:25:55] <Tobias> it's the same as last year
[11:26:15] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[11:26:26] <Zash> I assume nobody went and removed all subscriptions
[11:26:49] *** xyz has joined the room
[11:27:24] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[11:28:40] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:28:44] *** xyz has left the room
[11:29:33] *** xyz has joined the room
[11:29:46] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:29:55] *** goffi has left the room
[11:29:56] *** goffi has joined the room
[11:30:07] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:30:30] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:30:33] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:31:29] *** dwd shows as "online"
[11:31:37] *** Kev shows as "away"
[11:31:46] *** Kev shows as "online"
[11:31:53] *** Flow shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:33:00] *** xyz has left the room
[11:33:07] *** xyz has joined the room
[11:33:38] <Kev> Interesting. I should be subscribed to that list, but there's no mail come through.
[11:34:22] <daniel> Kev: that's what triggered me asking that question
[11:34:24] <Kev> Ge0rG: No. My position is that if daniel says that his users can and will trivially upgrade, along with other users of that namespace, I'm going to trust he knows what he's talking about.
[11:35:32] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:35:54] *** Zash shows as "online"
[11:37:24] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[11:37:48] *** Zash has left the room
[11:40:29] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:41:37] <Ge0rG> daniel, Kev: maybe. But when I look at it from the user perspective, I see three issues:
- how is user A supposed to figure out that he can't chat with B any more because of the upgrade?
- how can A tell B to upgrade as well if they can't talk to each other?
- who's going to delete the old pre-keys from PEP?
[11:42:26] <mathieui> Ge0rG, disco?
[11:43:34] <Ge0rG> mathieui, how is that going to solve any of the three? Maybe just a bit of #1.
[11:44:01] <daniel> Ge0rG: we can un-annouce the old devices. So messages won't just get discarded
[11:44:40] <daniel> It'll look like that contact doesn't have support for omemo
[11:45:32] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:45:45] *** Guus has left the room
[11:46:05] <Ge0rG> daniel, un-announce on upgrade? That might work. You could also add discovery for the new namespace already, and show a message to upgrade the client if it is encountered on a contract.
[11:46:06] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[11:46:09] *** Guus has joined the room
[11:46:52] <daniel> Ge0rG: see. No problem
[11:47:09] *** mancho shows as "online"
[11:47:22] *** xyz shows as "online"
[11:48:15] <Ge0rG> daniel, see, you need to do advance planning!
[11:49:39] <Ge0rG> daniel, and you need to convince all the others to do the same planning.
[11:49:59] <Ge0rG> daniel, you can't just sed out the namespace on day X.
[11:50:02] *** Sonny has left the room
[11:50:23] *** xyz has left the room
[11:50:28] *** xyz shows as "online"
[11:50:29] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:50:36] <daniel> Ge0rG: convincing the others is not a problem. We are all besties
[11:50:39] *** dwd shows as "online"
[11:51:12] <Ge0rG> daniel, it's getting harder and harder with each non standard implementation.
[11:52:33] <daniel> Ge0rG: I'm not doubting that it gets relatively harder
[11:52:57] <Ge0rG> I'm just saying...
[11:54:04] <daniel> Ge0rG: in any case there are a couple of things that have to happen first. Assess if a switch is still necessary with ows releasing specs
[11:54:14] <daniel> Write a olm java library
[11:54:22] <daniel> Fix bugs in olm
[11:55:39] *** Flow shows as "online"
[11:55:58] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[11:56:07] *** Valerian has joined the room
[11:59:17] *** Valerian has left the room
[11:59:18] *** Valerian has joined the room
[11:59:18] <Ge0rG> Maybe the OWS spec is something that should be discussed in Brussels.
[12:00:39] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:01:21] *** xyz has left the room
[12:01:33] *** xyz shows as "online"
[12:03:33] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[12:03:37] <daniel> I'm happy to discuss it if people have enough background information to make that assessment.
[12:03:45] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:03:53] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:03:55] <daniel> Note that this far I dont have that level of background information either
[12:04:01] *** xyz has left the room
[12:04:06] *** xyz shows as "online"
[12:04:22] *** intosi has left the room
[12:04:57] *** Sonny has joined the room
[12:05:53] <Ge0rG> daniel, I think it would be awesome if you could prepare it then and add a discussion point to the agenda. Unfortunately I'm not going to attend.
[12:07:23] *** Alex has left the room
[12:07:43] *** intosi has joined the room
[12:08:14] *** xyz has left the room
[12:08:47] *** dwd shows as "online"
[12:10:04] *** xyz shows as "online"
[12:10:39] *** Flow shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:13:47] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:14:43] *** dwd shows as "online"
[12:16:08] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[12:16:59] *** Guus has left the room
[12:16:59] *** tobias_ shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[12:17:10] *** Guus has joined the room
[12:17:33] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[12:17:35] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[12:19:43] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[12:19:56] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Hataraite imasu (работаю)"
[12:22:42] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:22:46] *** xyz has left the room
[12:22:51] *** xyz shows as "online"
[12:24:33] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:25:48] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[12:26:08] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[12:27:02] <ralphm> Kev: so did the e-mail just come in delayed?
[12:31:26] *** xyz has left the room
[12:31:31] *** xyz shows as "online"
[12:32:38] <Kev> I had it on my other account. I thought both accounts were subbed, but presumably either I'm wrong, or it got spamtrapped at work.
[12:33:37] *** xyz has left the room
[12:33:44] *** xyz shows as "online"
[12:36:50] *** georg has joined the room
[12:37:01] *** xyz has left the room
[12:37:15] *** georg has left the room
[12:37:17] *** xyz shows as "online"
[12:38:23] *** xyz has left the room
[12:38:58] *** kalkin shows as "online"
[12:39:43] *** kalkin has left the room
[12:39:49] *** kalkin shows as "online"
[12:39:59] *** winfried shows as "online"
[12:40:14] *** Alex has joined the room
[12:40:42] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[12:42:19] *** Sonny has left the room
[12:42:20] *** Sonny has joined the room
[12:44:10] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:44:56] *** jcbrand has left the room
[12:46:18] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[12:46:38] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[12:47:22] *** Flow shows as "online"
[12:48:41] *** Holger has left the room
[12:48:52] *** Holger shows as "online"
[12:52:22] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:54:10] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:56:38] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[12:56:45] *** jcbrand has left the room
[12:57:06] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:57:20] *** tobias_ shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[13:01:55] *** Flow shows as "online"
[13:03:29] *** mancho has left the room
[13:05:27] *** Zash shows as "away"
[13:06:19] *** xyz has left the room
[13:06:22] *** xyz has joined the room
[13:07:17] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[13:11:13] *** kalkin shows as "online"
[13:13:00] *** Sonny has left the room
[13:13:10] *** Sonny has joined the room
[13:13:28] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[13:15:19] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:15:20] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:15:57] *** Sonny has left the room
[13:15:58] *** Sonny has joined the room
[13:16:15] *** xyz has left the room
[13:16:20] *** xyz has joined the room
[13:18:05] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[13:18:17] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:18:59] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[13:19:00] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:19:23] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:20:15] *** Kev shows as "away"
[13:21:23] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:21:37] *** dwd shows as "online"
[13:22:32] *** Kev shows as "online"
[13:22:33] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:22:58] *** Zash shows as "online"
[13:23:11] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:23:21] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[13:26:00] *** bra shows as "online"
[13:26:29] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:27:24] *** Alex has left the room
[13:29:07] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:30:04] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:30:43] *** xyz has left the room
[13:33:01] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[13:33:14] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:33:44] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:36:10] *** xyz has joined the room
[13:36:35] *** dwd shows as "online"
[13:36:54] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:37:56] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:38:29] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[13:38:56] *** xyz has left the room
[13:39:15] *** xyz has joined the room
[13:39:32] *** Holger has left the room
[13:41:06] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:41:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:41:37] *** winfried shows as "away"
[13:43:09] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[13:43:43] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:44:40] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:44:58] *** intosi has left the room
[13:45:13] *** arc has left the room
[13:45:14] *** arc has joined the room
[13:46:58] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:47:05] *** dwd shows as "online"
[13:50:02] *** jcbrand has left the room
[13:50:08] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:50:45] *** intosi has joined the room
[13:50:45] *** Holger shows as "online"
[13:50:46] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:54:28] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[13:54:33] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:59:39] *** Guus has left the room
[14:00:05] *** Guus has joined the room
[14:00:42] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:00:45] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[14:00:47] *** SamWhited has left the room
[14:00:49] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[14:02:08] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[14:03:52] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:04:15] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:07:17] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[14:07:17] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[14:07:25] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:07:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:08:55] *** winfried shows as "online"
[14:09:17] <Link Mauve> “17:30:58 SamWhited> I wouldn't mind writing an XMPP implementation ontop of [tokio].”, oh nice, I’ll have a look, I remember wanting to try it before but it was very immature a few months ago (especially due to futures) so I went for mio instead.
[14:09:25] <Link Mauve> “17:36:10 Zash> lua::lua_setfield(L, -2, CString::new("foo").unwrap());”, you are just using raw bindings that don’t have a higher-level wraper, it won’t provide you any better safety than writing plain C either, it’s not the level at which you want to be using Rust.
[14:10:58] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:11:15] <Zash> Link Mauve: I imagined that it'd be possible to do Safe™ things in Rust and have a relatively small area of unsafe code that moves stuff between that and the C / Lua world.
[14:13:24] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:13:30] *** daurnimator shows as "online"
[14:15:01] *** ralphm has left the room
[14:15:13] <Zash> Which should be true, but then I reached my tolerance of telling a computer how to turn a string into a string.
[14:16:18] <SamWhited> > Welcome to our room, I'm going to add you to my roster, if you accept, please reply with Yes or 1 to accept, or you can reply with No or 0 if you don't want to.
مـرحـبآ بك في رومنا , سأقوم بإضافتك, لو سمحت أجب بنعم او 1 ان كنت موافقآ, او لا او 0 ان كنت لا تريد اضافتي.
[14:16:19] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[14:16:35] <SamWhited> Whisper in jdev or somewhere
[14:16:38] <Link Mauve> Zash, :)
[14:16:43] <SamWhited> That's a new one
[14:17:20] <Link Mauve> SamWhited, from who?
[14:17:31] <SamWhited> discuss@, rather; if anyone here has a ban hammer…
[14:17:49] <Zash> A kind of thing highlighting the continued need for JID privacy in public rooms?
[14:18:23] <SamWhited> That wouldn't stop a pm would it?
[14:18:30] *** daurnimator shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:19:16] *** xyz has left the room
[14:19:26] <Tobias> SamWhited, a fix for the duplicated note numbers https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/374
[14:19:56] <SamWhited> "Avril Lavinge" if anyone has op rights there
[14:20:12] <SamWhited> Tobias: nice, thanks!
[14:21:00] <Zash> SamWhited: Makes it harder for whatever that was to actually add you to their roster and/or send direct spam.
[14:21:16] <SamWhited> Fair
[14:21:37] <intosi> It would be nice if clients would render PM's outside of the chat room context, IMO ;) Avoids a bit of confusion.
[14:22:02] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[14:22:04] <SamWhited> Agreed
[14:22:05] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[14:22:20] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:22:28] <intosi> I'm generally always confused by how Conversations handles this.
[14:22:52] <Zash> Still need to write that server module to limit PMs in the MUC itself.
[14:22:54] <SamWhited> It would also prevent a lot of "me sending private messages to the whole room by mistake"
[14:23:10] <intosi> SamWhited, and that :)
[14:23:33] <Link Mauve> I only know of two clients doing that, imo you should report to their bugtracker.
[14:23:44] <Link Mauve> It’s indeed a terrible UX.
[14:23:46] <mathieui> that’s conversations and mcabber?
[14:23:48] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[14:23:56] <Link Mauve> Yeah.
[14:25:11] *** Kev shows as "away"
[14:26:19] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[14:26:28] <moparisthebest> I talked to daniel about that before and it was a deliberate design decision
[14:26:45] <Zash> Yay trade offs
[14:26:55] <moparisthebest> if I recall correctly, because it'd be confusing that people they were chatting with just disappeared and quit working etc
[14:26:55] *** winfried shows as "online"
[14:26:58] <moparisthebest> which is fair I guess
[14:27:12] *** bjc has left the room
[14:27:23] <moparisthebest> I also hate it, coding it up as an advanced option has been on my todo list for too long
[14:27:29] *** ralphm has joined the room
[14:28:11] <daniel> The target audience (tm) is also discouraged to use PMs at all
[14:28:30] *** daurnimator shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:28:47] <daniel> They usually dont hang around anonymous conferences
[14:29:36] *** Holger has left the room
[14:31:36] <SamWhited> Oh huh, the person sending that spam *is* an admin. Compromised account, maybe.
[14:32:00] <mathieui> maybe they just want to make friends :-(
[14:32:02] <moparisthebest> yea I have a feeling hardcore xmpp or irc users are the only one bothered by that behavior daniel :)
[14:32:12] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[14:32:13] <Zash> The nickname does seem familiar somehow
[14:32:28] <moparisthebest> yea I have a feeling hardcore xmpp or irc users are the only ones bothered by that behavior daniel :)
[14:33:02] <intosi> daniel: perhaps in your client, but that doesn't stop other clients from doing do.
[14:33:36] <daniel> intosi: yeah sure. I was just talking about the reasoning Conversations doesn't do it this way
[14:34:17] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[14:35:14] <intosi> Discouraging its use is fine (I know I rather receive normal chats instead), but rendering it such that it's easy to broadcast things meant to be said in private might not be the best choice for random users ;) They might also assume the thing was said in publiuc in the first place.
[14:35:21] <intosi> The incoming message, that is.
[14:35:29] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[14:36:18] *** winfried shows as "online"
[14:36:36] <intosi> If a techie is confused about the whispers, imagine how non-techies would perceive it ;)
[14:36:47] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[14:37:00] *** Holger has left the room
[14:37:20] <daniel> Mix to the rescue
[14:37:40] <ralphm> daniel: how would you handle it differently for MIX?
[14:38:18] <daniel> ralphm: the private conversation doesn't randomly drop out and can be persistent over longer periods
[14:39:52] <ralphm> sure
[14:39:52] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:39:52] *** Flow shows as "online"
[14:40:02] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:40:21] <ralphm> so would press-hold on a participant then bring you to another conversation?
[14:42:57] <daniel> ralphm: it can be a different conversation. How exactly you'd open one I haven't thought about yet
[14:43:02] <daniel> But in essence yes
[14:43:05] *** Kev shows as "online"
[14:45:46] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[14:47:26] *** Valerian has left the room
[14:47:26] *** Valerian has joined the room
[14:47:51] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[14:50:06] *** intosi has left the room
[14:50:30] *** Guus has left the room
[14:50:31] *** Guus has joined the room
[14:50:33] *** Valerian has left the room
[14:50:34] *** Valerian has joined the room
[14:53:25] *** Kev shows as "away"
[14:54:42] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[14:54:51] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[14:55:46] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[14:56:01] *** intosi has joined the room
[14:56:04] *** SamWhited has left the room
[14:56:07] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[14:56:57] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:01:44] *** Alex has joined the room
[15:06:46] *** jubalh has joined the room
[15:13:42] *** jcbrand has left the room
[15:16:09] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[15:16:09] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[15:16:18] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[15:16:20] *** jcbrand has left the room
[15:16:28] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[15:17:07] <ralphm> Zash, Flow, and other participants of the XMPP Summit and/or FOSDEM, please join summit@muc.xmpp.org
[15:17:39] *** jcbrand has left the room
[15:17:43] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[15:18:52] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:27:04] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[15:37:23] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:37:40] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:39:21] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:39:33] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:40:45] *** winfried shows as "away"
[15:40:47] *** Vinilox shows as "away"
[15:40:53] *** Guus has left the room
[15:41:02] *** Holger has left the room
[15:41:56] *** Guus has joined the room
[15:42:23] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:42:47] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[15:42:50] *** Flow shows as "online"
[15:42:54] *** Kev shows as "away"
[15:42:56] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:43:25] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:43:34] *** ralphm has left the room
[15:43:58] *** bjc has joined the room
[15:45:42] *** Holger shows as "online"
[15:46:09] *** Holger has left the room
[15:46:20] *** Holger shows as "online"
[15:46:30] *** Kev shows as "away"
[15:46:31] *** Kev has left the room
[15:47:19] *** Holger has left the room
[15:47:23] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:47:28] *** Holger shows as "online"
[15:51:19] *** tobias_ has left the room
[15:51:54] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:52:39] *** SamWhited has left the room
[15:52:39] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[15:56:08] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[15:56:17] *** Holger shows as "online"
[15:56:40] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[15:57:21] *** dwd shows as "online"
[15:58:58] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[15:59:20] *** Valerian has left the room
[15:59:20] *** Valerian has joined the room
[15:59:44] *** lonerz has joined the room
[15:59:52] *** ralphm has joined the room
[16:00:12] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:01:51] *** pep. has left the room
[16:01:54] *** pep. shows as "online"
[16:02:23] *** Zash shows as "online"
[16:03:30] *** Tobias has left the room
[16:03:32] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[16:03:46] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[16:06:04] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[16:09:24] *** ralphm has left the room
[16:10:55] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:11:38] <Ge0rG> A coworker just clicked my nickname in gajim's MUC window to chat to me. He was utterly confused when I tried to explain to him that this is not the same as a direct message. Oh the woes of XMPP
[16:13:23] <Ge0rG> Normal people would be best served by MUC light.
[16:13:49] <intosi> Why did you try to explain that? He probably did so because he had a question, and an answer would've made him close the window again ;)
[16:15:11] *** Valerian has left the room
[16:15:20] <Ge0rG> Also, I've recently fixed yaxim to put MUC PMs into separate windows, even though they lack presence info yet. It vastly improved the UX
[16:16:43] *** mancho has left the room
[16:17:14] *** mancho has joined the room
[16:17:35] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[16:18:59] *** bra shows as "xa" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[16:19:00] <Arc> im a bit confused by something; why is MIX split into two services with the special proxy service?
[16:21:52] <Kev> Because some things can only happen on your own server.
[16:22:01] <Steve Kille> Arc: Will talk about this at the summit. Need to make this clearer. MIX has requirements on the User's server, and these requirements are currently reference as MIX Proxy
[16:22:04] <Kev> The 'special proxy service' is bad terminology for 'things your server does'.
[16:24:48] <Ge0rG> Arc, it requires support from your server, and the MIX proxy is the part of your server that implements this support
[16:25:19] *** lonerz has left the room
[16:26:19] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[16:27:16] <Ge0rG> I'm still in favor of "MIX agent"
[16:30:30] *** Kev shows as "away"
[16:31:24] <dwd> MIX Master?
[16:33:16] <Ge0rG> dwd, nice sound but technically misleading
[16:34:35] <dwd> Well, it has to be MIX something or else Steve Kille won't write the spec. See RFC 2156.
[16:35:38] <intosi> MIX Connector, or MC for short.
[16:36:20] <Zash> MIX Blender
[16:36:42] <Tobias> or MIX Bender (futurama style)
[16:36:50] <Ge0rG> dwd, that problem can be solved. I remember you offered to kill people who come to Brussels... :P
[16:37:02] <Ge0rG> Tobias, +1
[16:38:19] <intosi> Bite my shiny mixing affiliation.
[16:40:10] <Ge0rG> Why not just as short as possible? "mixer" or "MIXer"
[16:41:24] <Zash> MIXing Server
[16:41:31] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[16:42:37] <Zash> MIX Inclusion eXtension
[16:45:28] *** Vinilox has left the room
[16:45:34] *** Vinilox shows as "online"
[16:45:47] *** waqas has joined the room
[16:46:48] *** bra shows as "online"
[16:47:01] *** Holger has left the room
[16:47:15] *** Holger shows as "online"
[16:47:38] <Arc> hmm
[16:47:39] <Arc> ok
[16:47:56] <Arc> it doesnt sit quite right, does it? requiring special server support for a remote service?
[16:49:23] <Zash> I believe it started as "what if the server kept track of your pubsub subscriptions?" combined with "what if muc was pubsub based?"
[16:50:43] <Zash> Currently, pubsub state is between a client (resource) and the pubsub service. Moving the tracking into the account (on the server) enables magic.
[16:50:47] <Tobias> maybe the MIX XEP should make that explicit, so that we don't have someone stubling about that fact every month
[16:50:57] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:50:58] <Zash> Having not kept up with MIX, I'm not sure how much magic is expected of the server now.
[16:50:59] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[16:51:03] <Tobias> *explicit in the introduction
[16:51:06] <Arc> meeting time
[16:52:34] *** Martin has joined the room
[16:52:47] *** Flow shows as "online"
[16:53:17] <Arc> and starting today, I'm FREE!
[16:53:47] *** Flow has left the room
[16:53:51] <Arc> Google Code-in is officially over. all student work submitted, all reviews complete, only thing left is choosing grand prize winners and the awards ceremony sometime this spring
[16:55:10] *** winfried shows as "online"
[16:55:29] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:56:30] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:56:35] *** dwd shows as "online"
[16:57:11] *** ralphm has joined the room
[16:57:32] <Arc> ralphm: nyco:
[16:57:49] <mathieui> Arc, congratulations
[16:58:00] *MattJ waves
[16:58:53] *** nyco shows as "online"
[16:58:59] <nyco> hey
[16:59:10] <ralphm> I'm here
[16:59:20] <Arc> https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Joshua_Pan_Application_2017 is a great result from google code-in
[16:59:22] <ralphm> start in 40 s
[16:59:36] <nyco> hey Arc, can/should we write a blog post about XMPP-related work on Google Code-In?
[16:59:42] <Arc> Zash: if you want to follow up with one of the students, that's the big one
[16:59:52] <ralphm> intosi: but will it MIX?
[16:59:58] *** Guus has left the room
[16:59:59] <Arc> nyco: we could? im not huge into press release style posts tho
[16:59:59] *** Guus has joined the room
[17:00:13] *ralphm bangs gavel
[17:00:18] <ralphm> 1. Welcome + Agenda
[17:00:26] <nyco> Arc, rather tech content?
[17:00:29] <Arc> Martin: you here?
[17:00:29] <ralphm> Who do we have today?
[17:00:31] <nyco> Welcome ;-)
[17:00:34] <Arc> Here
[17:00:54] <ralphm> MattJ?
[17:00:58] <MattJ> Here
[17:01:10] <ralphm> (despite your presence)
[17:01:45] <ralphm> Good. Any agenda items, besides Summit/FOSDEM?
[17:01:48] <nyco> Agenda: all for the summit?
[17:01:54] <Arc> I added 2 to the board
[17:02:03] <nyco> IMHO we should focus on Brussels
[17:02:09] <nyco> ah ok
[17:02:42] <ralphm> 2. Minute taker
[17:02:46] <ralphm> dwd around?
[17:03:01] <dwd> I'm not going to be around the entire time, but I'll get to minutes.
[17:03:04] <ralphm> ok
[17:03:13] <ralphm> 3. Summit / FOSDEM
[17:03:28] *** Martin has left the room
[17:03:31] *** Martin has joined the room
[17:03:41] <Arc> Thank you ralph for getting the hotel stuff together
[17:03:43] <ralphm> As you might have seen, I've got the quote from Thon Hotel, and sent out some details on the Summit ML
[17:04:09] *** Vinilox shows as "online"
[17:04:15] *** Valerian has joined the room
[17:04:15] <nyco> thx
[17:04:23] <Martin> (apologies, I'm here, but on a train, so my connection is ropey)
[17:04:27] <ralphm> I still need to sign the document, and dwd suggested we could simply put in the bank details to cover their requirement for non-paying individuals
[17:04:42] <ralphm> If that's ok with y'all
[17:04:58] <Arc> thats ok so long as everyone in the block is known and reliable
[17:05:16] <ralphm> aye, that's also why I put up the Google Docs form
[17:05:23] *** xyz has joined the room
[17:05:26] <Arc> and there's a clear understanding that the XSF will hold people responsible for paying anything charged to the XSF on their behalf
[17:05:38] <Arc> which I think you've covered.
[17:05:45] <dwd> Hence the phrasing on the Google Docs form, indeed.
[17:06:02] <ralphm> It has a checkbox stating 'I understand that I will be personally responsible for the payment to Thon Hotel EU and will be required to make good any expense incurred by the XMPP Standards Foundation in relation to my stay.̈́
[17:06:14] <Arc> quick question - why is wednesday twice the price for weekend nights?
[17:06:22] <dwd> arc, Because Hotels.
[17:06:27] <ralphm> I'm assuming that's also because of EU
[17:06:31] *** Valerian has left the room
[17:06:32] *** Valerian has joined the room
[17:06:43] <ralphm> It's always been like this at Aloft, too
[17:06:50] <intosi> They had few rooms available on that date.
[17:06:55] <Arc> thats bizarre, but moving on.
[17:06:59] <ralphm> yeah
[17:07:17] <Tobias> payments to the hotel okay, but why to the XSF?
[17:07:44] <Arc> unfortunetly there's not a lot of other options; the eariest eurostar from london (for example) arrives after 10am, over 30 minutes from summit
[17:07:48] <ralphm> So, other than that, I got word that Chris Deering won't be at the Summit, and neither will M&M, but Chris is in talks with Jerome Poisson on the summit venue
[17:08:16] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:08:17] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:08:19] <ralphm> tobias: you don't pay the XSF for the hotel, this is just to make sure that if you don't pay the hotel, we will need to cover it and come haunt you
[17:08:31] <Tobias> ralphm, ahh
[17:09:06] *** Arc has left the room
[17:09:06] *** arc shows as "online"
[17:09:08] <ralphm> To be clear, the venue being Cisco Diegem
[17:09:26] <ralphm> I trust we can work that out again
[17:09:40] *** Arc has joined the room
[17:09:53] <SamWhited> In case Cisco doesn't work out, maybe it's worth inquiring if the hotel has a conference room we can use?
[17:10:02] <intosi> We'll squat all of the Poechenellekelder if not .
[17:10:02] <Arc> is that not locked down yet?
[17:10:06] <ralphm> it does, dwd said it was expensive
[17:10:16] <ralphm> Arc: please don't worry so much
[17:10:46] <SamWhited> Ah weird, I'd assume it would be free to people bringing in a big group paying them tons of money
[17:10:58] <dwd> The XSF can, if needs be, afford the hotel's conference room.
[17:11:05] <intosi> SamWhited: that's not how bistromath works.
[17:11:12] <dwd> SamWhited, That's a US thing. EU hotels don't operate in that way.
[17:11:18] <SamWhited> Huh, interesting.
[17:11:18] <ralphm> dwd: yeah
[17:11:33] <SamWhited> I thought that was the point of conference rooms in hotels, to attract big groups :)
[17:12:11] <ralphm> SamWhited: well, in the case of hotels in the EU district in Brussels, there appear to be plenty of venues offered by the EU
[17:12:25] <ralphm> Moving on
[17:12:37] <Arc> SamWhited: and in the US, wednesdays are usually the cheapest day.
[17:13:07] <ralphm> Other thing on the list is the XSF dinner. We just need to contact the same old restaurant and setup a new Google Form afterwards
[17:13:19] <Arc> what restaurant is it?
[17:13:30] <ralphm> dwd: let's get that check list done today
[17:14:01] <ralphm> http://www.aubergebretonne.be/
[17:14:28] <ralphm> We've been going there for years. Good venue.
[17:14:38] <dwd> ralphm, Yes. Mea culpa and all that.
[17:14:49] <ralphm> That brings me to the next point, sponsors
[17:15:05] *** Lance has joined the room
[17:15:06] *** Lance shows as "online"
[17:15:06] <ralphm> we need to chase those. Who wants to take that on
[17:15:07] <ralphm> ?
[17:15:33] <ralphm> if needed dwd can help with tips
[17:16:17] <Arc> i have a bad feeling that im going to lose so much weight on this trip lol
[17:16:44] <dwd> arc, You'll lose many negative pounds.
[17:16:51] <ralphm> dwd :-)
[17:17:31] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:17:58] <Arc> dwd: you might. lol
[17:18:09] <ralphm> not seeing any volunteers
[17:18:11] <ralphm> :-(
[17:18:34] <ralphm> come on guys, I can't do it all
[17:18:42] <MattJ> I'll volunteer, if someone gives me pointers
[17:18:46] <dwd> ralphm, This is for Dinner etc?
[17:18:51] <ralphm> yeah
[17:18:59] *** Martin has left the room
[17:19:00] *** Martin has joined the room
[17:19:04] <MattJ> Not convinced I'm the best person for the job, but hey :)
[17:19:12] <ralphm> last year we had Dinner and Lunch sponsors, as well as Cisco for the Summit venue
[17:19:26] <dwd> I'll give MattJ some tips.
[17:19:35] <Zash> MattJ: You can arrange for all vegan and cheese free dinner for everyone
[17:19:39] <ralphm> MattJ: you'll be fine, just don't get lost in the woods
[17:19:43] <MattJ> I won't be there :)
[17:19:54] <dwd> ralphm, That's how lost he'll be.
[17:20:12] <Arc> Zash: I don't think its possible, looking at this one restaurant's menu. even the fish has dairy on it
[17:20:44] <dwd> Arc, Vegan isn't really a thing in Belgium. Vegetarian isn't much of a thing either.
[17:20:45] <ralphm> Arc: I'm sure they can do specials, we've always had a veggie option, too
[17:21:14] <Arc> dwd: yes I'm getting that impression.
[17:21:21] <intosi> ralphm: vegan is probably more complex for them.
[17:21:36] <Arc> I'm vegan plus fish and eggs. strong dairy allergy.
[17:21:50] <ralphm> intosi: hm. I'll ask them anyway
[17:22:12] <ralphm> (or whoever calls them)
[17:22:29] <dwd> Arc, Ah... Yes, you may have some problems.
[17:22:48] *** xyz has left the room
[17:22:53] *** xyz has joined the room
[17:23:06] <dwd> Arc, You can always live off beer. It's practically a meal in itself there.
[17:23:06] <Arc> things like butter can lead to a hospital visit, you can understand hesitation eating in non-english countries
[17:23:30] *** daniel has left the room
[17:23:34] <intosi> I'm sure native speakers can help out at the Auberge here.
[17:23:41] <Arc> I ate exactly two meals in paris over 4 days.
[17:23:48] <MattJ> Arc, it's fine, once the infamous "ribs place" made up a vegetarian dish for me
[17:23:57] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:23:59] <MattJ> Consisting 100% of tomatoes
[17:24:01] <intosi> MattJ: the plate full of tomatoes?
[17:24:02] <ralphm> Yeah, I'm sure people in Paris think you're from another planet
[17:24:06] <MattJ> That's the one
[17:24:17] <Arc> MattJ: tomatos are great for electrolites lol
[17:24:31] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:24:32] <MattJ> I think there was some parsley on the top
[17:24:37] <Arc> anyway we can discuss that on summit@
[17:25:12] <waqas> What has the typical cost of the dinner been? i.e., what's the baseline funding goal?
[17:25:36] <dwd> I'd have to check previous years' figures.
[17:26:05] <ralphm> meanwhile, let's spend the last 5 minutes on Marketing
[17:26:34] <ralphm> I relatedly asked if my company could provide a projector, and I think that's shouldn't be a problem
[17:26:56] <Martin> I asked if Surevine could, and nobody seemed to know where the projector was, so that's good to hear
[17:26:56] <ralphm> We do need to get things printed soonish
[17:27:11] <ralphm> Martin: the more the better
[17:27:11] <MattJ> Martin, :)
[17:27:12] <Arc> ralphm: yes, do you have quotes on that?
[17:27:23] <Martin> ralphm: OK, I'll chase
[17:27:40] <Arc> ralphm: full color front and back A4
[17:27:41] *** xyz has left the room
[17:27:45] *** xyz has joined the room
[17:27:54] *** SamWhited has left the room
[17:27:54] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:28:01] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:28:25] <ralphm> Arc: I'll get you a quote on that.
[17:28:31] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[17:28:31] <ralphm> anything else specifically?
[17:28:32] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:28:42] <Arc> well you mentioned a banner
[17:29:05] <Arc> I'm focusing my attention on flyers, which i should have a pdf by friday
[17:29:21] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[17:29:51] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:29:52] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:29:52] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[17:30:39] <ralphm> Arc: right. Roll op banners are around €35
[17:30:49] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:30:52] <ralphm> (going from, of course you can get more expensive)
[17:31:00] <ralphm> I've also eyed this: https://www.dvc.nl/beurs-presentatie/beurs-en-wanden
[17:31:24] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[17:31:32] <Arc> ralphm: want me to do layout for the banner too?
[17:31:34] <ralphm> The soft image wand (wall), for example
[17:31:54] <ralphm> and https://www.dvc.nl/beurs-presentatie/balies
[17:32:00] <ralphm> Arc: yes please
[17:32:22] <Arc> ok get me DPI and size. my schedule is pretty open this week
[17:32:39] *ralphm nods
[17:32:49] <ralphm> time's up
[17:32:51] <Arc> I added tshirts for decision
[17:32:51] <ralphm> anything else?
[17:33:21] <ralphm> Arc: I'm +1 on them, we just need to get a nice design
[17:33:42] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[17:33:47] <Arc> no problem. full color on one side, one color on the other?
[17:34:35] <Arc> are we doing free shirts for summit participants (they'll cost under $20/ea I expect) or taking online orders to pay for them?
[17:34:39] *** Kev has left the room
[17:34:55] <ralphm> Martin, nyco?
[17:35:13] <nyco> not sure
[17:35:14] <ralphm> Arc: I don't know
[17:35:15] *** Martin has left the room
[17:35:16] *** Martin has joined the room
[17:35:25] <ralphm> I would pay for it
[17:36:16] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[17:36:17] <Arc> it'd cost under $400 to print them. the issue here is the price goes up in smaller quantity
[17:36:51] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:36:57] <Arc> assuming similar pricing US to EU, good tshirt material around $8, and around $15 setup per screen, plus a nominal amount per shirt to print. but the screens are the key there
[17:37:00] <ralphm> does different sizes affect that?
[17:37:06] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:37:12] <Arc> not typically, until you get to XXL or higher
[17:37:36] <Arc> with full color on one side (for xmpp logo) it'll cost $75-$100 USD for setup and printing regardless of quantity
[17:37:56] <ralphm> I have no idea on this
[17:38:27] *** SamWhited has left the room
[17:38:36] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:39:12] <ralphm> I'm going to close this meeting, but we can chat some more afterwards
[17:39:14] <Ge0rG> Would it be possible to get summit-neutral t shirts for non-participants?
[17:39:18] <ralphm> Arc: thanks for the PyCon thing
[17:39:26] <nyco> ok, I need to go, sorry... I've not been useful :'(
[17:39:50] <ralphm> Ge0rG: the idea this time around is participant-only shirts, if I remember correctly.
[17:39:50] <Arc> so being conservative it'll cost under $400 for qty 36.
[17:39:52] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[17:39:59] <ralphm> 4. Date of Next
[17:40:00] <ralphm> +1W
[17:40:03] <ralphm> 5. Close
[17:40:05] <ralphm> Thanks all
[17:40:07] <nyco> thx
[17:40:09] *ralphm bangs gavel
[17:40:29] <MattJ> Thanks ralphm
[17:40:29] *** Martin has left the room
[17:40:36] *** xyz has left the room
[17:40:41] <ralphm> By the way, I think we'll skip Feb 1.
[17:41:02] *** jubalh has left the room
[17:41:06] <Arc> what, no in-person board meeting?
[17:42:43] <ralphm> Not on Feb 1
[17:42:51] <ralphm> I'll still be in Veldhoven
[17:43:14] <ralphm> But I'm all up for the in-person board drink
[17:43:31] <ralphm> (on one of the other nights)
[17:43:41] *** dwd shows as "online"
[17:44:06] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[17:44:10] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:44:43] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:44:44] *** intosi has left the room
[17:44:56] *** waqas has left the room
[17:45:13] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:45:16] *** waqas has joined the room
[17:45:59] <Arc> ralphm: i'm suggesting we use up to $400 of the $1500 for promo material budget for tshirts
[17:46:36] <ralphm> right
[17:47:50] <Arc> so, you ended the meeting a bit abruptly there. are we making those decisions on the list?
[17:49:45] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[17:49:48] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[17:50:07] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:50:09] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[17:51:00] <ralphm> Arc: well, yeah, because it's been mostly a conversation between us two. I think that's a reasonable course of action
[17:51:15] <ralphm> I am curious about how to find proper shirt material
[17:51:29] <Arc> the printer will have options.
[17:51:35] <ralphm> Most of my shirts are American Apparel, but I'm not sure if you can get those here
[17:51:42] *** jubalh has joined the room
[17:52:10] <moparisthebest> 'MIX Proxy' should be renamed 'MIX User Connector', or MUC for short, that'll fix all the confusion surely
[17:52:13] <Arc> a third of my closet are tshirts ive designed or run the orders on, mostly rugby shirts
[17:53:46] *** Sonny has left the room
[17:53:51] *** Sonny has joined the room
[17:53:59] <ralphm> I know good vendors for flags and for paper printing, but not so much for clothes
[17:54:09] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[17:54:19] <ralphm> Guus, intosi, any idea?
[17:55:37] *** Lance has joined the room
[17:55:37] *** Lance shows as "online"
[17:57:51] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:57:52] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:59:42] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:00:02] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[18:00:07] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:00:20] <Arc> would amsterdam be easy for you to pick up from ralphm?
[18:00:39] <Arc> I can ask the rugby team in amsterdam, all rugby teams make shirts like crazy
[18:01:07] <Arc> btw ralphm you've got an invite to Bingham Cup 2018 in Amsterdam ;-)
[18:02:49] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:03:18] <ralphm> I'm in A'dam three days a week
[18:03:42] <ralphm> But I'd guess that all printers would do cheap shipping
[18:03:52] <ralphm> .nl is small
[18:04:14] <ralphm> Hah.
[18:04:16] *** Sonny has left the room
[18:04:17] *** Sonny has joined the room
[18:07:32] *** xyz has joined the room
[18:07:50] *** goffi has left the room
[18:07:55] <Arc> i asked the amsterdam lowlanders
[18:07:58] *** goffi has joined the room
[18:08:09] <Ge0rG> "I'm in A'dam three days a week" this is a surprising coming out.
[18:08:46] <Arc> Ge0rG: especially when replying to an invite to a gay rugby tournament lol
[18:09:37] *** lonerz has joined the room
[18:09:41] *** jcbrand has left the room
[18:09:42] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:10:58] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:11:57] <ralphm> Yeah, I found it hard to admit, too.
[18:12:09] *** arc has left the room
[18:12:10] *** arc has joined the room
[18:13:44] <Arc> largest rugby tournament in the world, pretty big deal.
[18:15:08] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:15:08] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:15:20] *** waqas has left the room
[18:16:38] <Arc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulSPA_Enh2A was Sydney 3 years ago.
[18:16:47] *** xyz has left the room
[18:17:00] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:17:20] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:18:27] *** Flow has joined the room
[18:19:03] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[18:19:03] *** Kev has joined the room
[18:19:04] *** Kev shows as "away"
[18:19:07] *** Sonny has left the room
[18:19:08] *** Sonny has joined the room
[18:19:13] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[18:20:34] *** waqas has joined the room
[18:20:38] *** ralphm has left the room
[18:20:41] *** waqas has left the room
[18:20:49] *** dwd shows as "online"
[18:21:38] *** jubalh has joined the room
[18:21:54] *** Guus has left the room
[18:21:56] *** Guus has joined the room
[18:22:15] *** jubalh has left the room
[18:22:53] <Guus> Some one mentioned me?
[18:24:51] *** winfried shows as "away"
[18:25:06] <Guus> Clothing vendors, no idea
[18:26:02] *** Lance has left the room
[18:26:03] *** xyz has joined the room
[18:27:23] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:28:49] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:29:13] *** narcode shows as "online"
[18:30:19] *** Sonny has left the room
[18:30:20] *** Sonny has joined the room
[18:30:36] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:31:23] *** winfried shows as "online"
[18:31:27] *** xyz has left the room
[18:31:32] *** xyz has joined the room
[18:34:57] *** Sonny has left the room
[18:34:58] *** Sonny has joined the room
[18:36:45] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[18:37:05] *** Holger has left the room
[18:37:13] *** Holger shows as "online"
[18:37:23] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:38:48] *** Flow shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:40:50] *** daniel has joined the room
[18:41:42] *** lonerz has left the room
[18:43:39] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:44:40] *** Flow shows as "online"
[18:45:21] *** waqas has joined the room
[18:46:21] *** Kev has left the room
[18:47:36] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[18:47:37] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[18:49:11] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:49:11] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:52:12] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:52:33] *** Sonny has left the room
[18:53:50] *** Sonny has joined the room
[18:54:25] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:54:26] <Ge0rG> Has anybody ever considered that JIDs reflected by a MUC or MIX are not trustworthy, as the component could fake everything?
[18:54:51] <Arc> thats an interesting point
[18:55:51] <Arc> currently tho you can confirm their server at least if they use http upload to send a photo
[18:57:06] <Ge0rG> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#invite-mediated writes "The <room@service> itself MUST then add a 'from' address to the <invite/> element whose value is the bare JID, full JID, or occupant JID of the inviter" which all have interesting security implications
[18:58:07] <Arc> ive retreated to my safe EXI level work, theres just too many privacy exploits to close them all
[18:58:08] *** xyz has left the room
[18:58:10] *** xyz has joined the room
[18:58:17] <Arc> besides, many of those problems *we* can't solve.
[18:59:12] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:59:14] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:59:24] <Arc> i think i found the bottom of the rabbit hole, and it puts everything else in perspective
[18:59:47] <Arc> all I need to do to uncover your IP address is send you a custom link to a server I manage.
[19:00:06] <Ge0rG> Arc: and make me click it
[19:00:42] <Arc> thats easy. i just have to provoke you with an emotional discussion and make it look like a url shortener service
[19:01:08] <Arc> I started running this as a proof of concept on alt-right forums, im getting over 50% click-through rate
[19:02:16] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:02:19] <Arc> it works most reliably with DMs
[19:02:35] <Arc> usually after forum visibility posts
[19:02:38] *** xyz has left the room
[19:02:50] *** xyz has joined the room
[19:03:37] <Ge0rG> Arc: I hope you aren't doing unethical things with the IP data
[19:04:18] <Arc> not unless profiting from humans being terrible to each other is unethical
[19:04:24] *** Flow shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:05:23] <Ge0rG> Arc: in not sure. "profiting" can be anything or nothing
[19:05:29] <Ge0rG> I'm
[19:05:46] <Arc> i got the idea when I first noticed this problem a few weeks ago at the same time a transwoman friend was being harassed online to the point of closing her facebook account. using this method we were able to uncover that they were using RCN from the DC area, meaning its likely someone she knows
[19:05:55] <Arc> but we lacked data.
[19:06:36] *** Flow shows as "online"
[19:07:07] <Arc> so I identified other places online where this person might be posting, and started running automated agents there to see if we could find a match. we haven't yet.
[19:08:04] *** Vinilox shows as "away"
[19:08:05] *** Vinilox shows as "online"
[19:08:21] <Arc> if we could ever link the person to a real identity, they would face criminal charges for repeatedly threatening to kill her
[19:09:15] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:09:33] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:10:26] <Arc> the latest is after she left facebook, her harrasser created a spoof profile with her name and started sending friend requests to people she knows. its been pretty scary
[19:10:45] <Ge0rG> Arc: interesting op-sec finding
[19:11:17] <Guus> (RCN?)
[19:11:34] <Arc> RCN is a cable company. unfortunetly RCN doesnt have ipv6
[19:12:45] <daniel> Does somebody have a deep link to the summits mailing list sign-up page / archive. (basically to the mailman page). I'm on mobile with horrible Internet and googleing that is a pain
[19:15:05] <Guus> https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/summit
[19:15:41] *** dwd shows as "online"
[19:15:47] <Arc> anyway im considering turning it into a business. the data archived exclusively from "biggot sites" that trolls tend to use frequently. advertisers are already using your IP address to track you
[19:16:14] *** winfried shows as "online"
[19:17:10] <Ge0rG> Arc: such a business would be illegal wir where I live
[19:17:20] <Guus> when is the next board meeting?
[19:17:23] <Arc> Ge0rG: thats entirely possible.
[19:17:38] <Arc> Ge0rG: Jan 25.
[19:17:43] <Arc> we are skipping Feb 1
[19:18:00] <Guus> ah, today was one?
[19:18:26] <Arc> yes, and we really only got through one item. its unlikely we'll be able to touch non-summit next week either
[19:19:28] <Arc> the big one we need to attack now is GSoC. if XSF is going to put in a decent application this year we need someone to step up, I'm happy to serve as backup admin (I've been a GSoC mentor every year since 2005), and need to start getting the ideas page going like yesterday
[19:19:35] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:19:59] <Guus> Board should probably have a say in the desirability of something like, which is why I was asking: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/246
[19:20:24] *** ralphm has joined the room
[19:21:09] *** jubalh has joined the room
[19:21:21] <Guus> ah, GSoC, good thought. Not sure if I can commit to put in effort there though. I can try to coordinate with IgniteRealtime projects, if that'd be helpful
[19:21:52] *** lonerz has joined the room
[19:22:04] *** Alex shows as "online"
[19:22:22] *** xyz has left the room
[19:22:25] *** Alex has left the room
[19:22:36] <Arc> Ge0rG: just curious, what part specifically would be illegal where you are? the recording of IP addresses? sending bots to engage in social sites? allowing paid subscribers to use our data to narrow down who their harassers are?
[19:22:50] <Arc> Guus: well GCI just ended, which means GSoC is starting.
[19:24:27] <Arc> please note, and this is very important, if XSF isnt accepted there are other projects that will umbrella
[19:24:44] <Arc> we can, Python may, even Apache
[19:25:04] *** bjc has left the room
[19:25:05] *** bjc has joined the room
[19:25:18] <Flow> GSOC, yes please :)
[19:25:22] <Arc> the difference is who gets the money. umbrellas usually keep most or all of the per-student funds
[19:25:28] *** Alex shows as "online"
[19:25:33] <Flow> so does the XSF ;)
[19:25:42] <daniel> Guus: thank you
[19:25:45] <dwd> Arc, I don't think we do it for the monety.
[19:25:54] <Arc> dwd: no, but it helps
[19:26:01] <Flow> helps how?
[19:26:35] <Flow> I'm not sure if I want mentors who wouldn't mentor if there was no money
[19:26:45] <Arc> we had Wesnoth under us as an umbrella a few years ago, they threw a nuclear hissy fit over the org payment from google even when they were a very small part of the overall org
[19:26:48] <Ge0rG> Arc: recording of addresses is borderline, selling them without user consent illegal
[19:27:15] <Arc> Ge0rG: would love to see that law, because advertisers do this all the time.
[19:27:27] <dwd> Ge0rG, Germany's a little over-inclusive about what they treat as PII, mind.
[19:27:40] <Guus> Arc: Germa...what Dave said.
[19:27:44] *** Valerian has left the room
[19:27:44] <Arc> ah, gotcha.
[19:28:11] <Arc> well if i do this i plan to incorporate as an LLC in nevada anyway
[19:28:22] <Ge0rG> dwd: it's good to err on the safe side
[19:28:25] <dwd> Arc, You could probably have a query service over whether a particular user visiting a site may frequent alt-right groups. Having a flat out IP blacklist might be problematic.
[19:28:29] *** xyz has joined the room
[19:28:31] *** Kev has joined the room
[19:28:32] *** Kev shows as "away"
[19:29:01] <Arc> dwd: not a blacklist. we're not blocking anyone, just attempting to link up what they've said on different sites to identify who they are
[19:29:10] <Arc> once we get into facebook it might become very easy.
[19:31:15] <dwd> Arc, If you do it via advertising - or via a mechanism that's substantially similar - you're perfectly fine.
[19:31:34] <dwd> Arc, Depending on what "identify" might mean here.
[19:32:08] <Arc> the IP address is easy. the question is who's posting hate from that IP address.
[19:32:52] <dwd> On another note - pubsub events and retracts - type='headline' a sensible default?
[19:33:36] <Arc> so the MIX "proxy" isnt MIX-specific, its your own server tracking pubsub subscriptions
[19:33:55] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[19:34:19] <Kev> It *is* MIX specific, because MIX does a special type of pubsub.
[19:34:47] <Ge0rG> And because the proxy also filters / redirects messages and possibly presence
[19:35:12] <Arc> could it be mare more generic, tracking pubsub subscriptions would be a nice feature
[19:35:19] <Kev> Yes, that's PAM.
[19:35:24] <dwd> Arc, See PAM.
[19:35:31] <Kev> But PAM wasn't specced out sufficiently when MIX was being done to use PAM.
[19:35:41] <dwd> Arc, And that does need work, but I think I've got a reasonable spec for the actual tracking bit.
[19:35:50] <Kev> So what's needed is specced out in MIX more explicitly, with the understanding it may well be rephrased in terms of PAM when PAM is more fully baked.
[19:36:05] <Arc> ok
[19:36:08] <Ge0rG> Kev: why haven't we progressed PAM then?
[19:36:11] <Arc> clearly i have a lot of reading to do
[19:36:25] <Arc> easier to retreat back to EXI and let the rest wash over for now
[19:36:25] <Kev> Arc: Sure. We're basically building XMPP2 at this point.
[19:36:40] <dwd> Ge0rG, Cycles. I'm always blocked when thinking how PEP ought to work with PAM.
[19:36:45] <Arc> that is long since overdue
[19:37:04] <Kev> We're just doing it in a way that still works on top of 6120/6121 and allows interop with XMPP1.
[19:37:44] <Arc> TLS mandatory, EXI detection mandatory, SASL mandatory, fully framed and no restarts
[19:37:45] *** waqas has left the room
[19:37:45] <Kev> Which is obviously a good thing, but makes it hard to break the mindset of 'well, why should entity X have to support Y in order for entity Z to ...', when the answer is 'because this is how the new world needs to work'.
[19:37:56] <Ge0rG> XMPP2 you say? Is that why bind2 is called as it is? I found the name rather uncreative
[19:38:22] <daniel> Let's duplicate all xeps and add a 2.0 to the name
[19:38:37] <Kev> daniel: Resource binding 1 not being a XEP, of course ;)
[19:38:58] <Ge0rG> daniel: just bump the steam namespace version
[19:39:06] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[19:39:14] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[19:39:19] <Ge0rG> And replace XML with http2
[19:39:36] <Kev> And I'm out again.
[19:39:53] <Arc> and then replace http2 with telnet
[19:40:55] *** Alex has left the room
[19:41:05] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:41:11] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:41:11] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:43:01] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:43:36] *** Zash shows as "away"
[19:43:55] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[19:44:46] *** Vinilox has left the room
[19:45:53] *** dwd has left the room
[19:46:09] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:46:51] <Flow> hmm, yesterday gave a +1 for removing the ability of the client to suggest a resource, and today I look at stanza traces of integration tests I wrote which use that feature to make it clear which role the involved full JIDs perform in the test.
[19:48:18] *** Holger shows as "online"
[19:48:26] *** Holger shows as "online"
[19:48:30] *** Holger has left the room
[19:50:05] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[19:53:01] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:53:15] *** waqas has joined the room
[19:53:44] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[19:55:11] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[19:56:20] <Holger> Yes, custum resource names can be really convenient during debugging.
[19:57:12] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[19:57:40] *** Zash shows as "online"
[19:57:45] <Flow> exactly, so I'm not sure if we should get rid of them on protocol level again
[19:57:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:57:59] <Flow> (and that, of course, includes bind2)
[19:58:04] <Tobias> it's just one indirection more
[19:58:14] <Flow> tobias: hmm?
[19:58:28] <Flow> instead of looking at the localpart?
[19:58:45] <Tobias> in your logs, just find the resource you interested in and then look at all debugs things related to it
[19:58:58] <Tobias> you just skip the "find the resource you're interested in"
[19:59:05] <Flow> tobias: in case of integration tests, i'm interested in multiple resources
[19:59:19] <Flow> of course, I could highlight them in different colors
[19:59:26] <daniel> Debugging is a good usecase. Maybe the only one. Not sure if this justifies keeping them
[19:59:29] <Tobias> sure..but you can just have them handle them being dynamic, not?
[19:59:41] <Flow> and then try to remember somehow that blue is the address doing to the read out from the red resource
[20:00:08] <Tobias> if you have asserts that are resource dependent, just do a lookup for the resource after you log in, and use the resource in the asserts of your integration tests
[20:00:32] <Flow> tobias: ahh i'm not sure if we talk about the same thing
[20:00:38] <Tobias> i'm neither
[20:00:55] <Flow> Right now I've a stanza trace in front of me, which involves three different entities
[20:00:55] *** bra shows as "online"
[20:00:59] <Tobias> what's the integration test you have that requires static hardcoded resources?
[20:01:01] <Flow> which somehow interact with each other
[20:01:10] <Flow> tobias: it does not *require* it
[20:01:26] <Flow> it makes the trace much easier to read
[20:01:28] <Tobias> so, highlight them differently based on resoruce
[20:01:32] <Tobias> *resource
[20:01:55] <Flow> i may not always have emacs in front of me
[20:01:56] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:01:57] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:02:06] <Flow> i.e. I could have an editor in front of me which doesn't have this feature
[20:02:09] <Flow> like google docs
[20:02:17] <Flow> which is actually the case right now
[20:02:23] <Tobias> google docs can colour text
[20:02:32] *** SamWhited has left the room
[20:02:34] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[20:02:46] <Flow> ahh ok, didn't knew
[20:02:48] <Flow> let's see
[20:03:01] <Flow> but the point still stands
[20:03:25] <Flow> tobias: can color text, or can color search results in different colors?
[20:03:44] <Tobias> i don't know...i rarely use google docs
[20:03:46] <bjc> it's useful for debugging, but it's hard to use that as a strong motivation to keep the feature, imho
[20:03:59] <bjc> i do the same thing with my resources in tests
[20:04:24] <Tobias> and you can still use static resources, just not when doing login using bind2
[20:05:07] <Flow> If the only motiviation for removing it is that it makes clustering easier, then I tend to say "keep it", because it's already possible to generate the resources on the local cluster node with the current RFC
[20:05:09] <Ge0rG> +1 for keeping client generated resources.
[20:05:39] <bjc> it removes a round trip when you don't have to negotiate resources
[20:05:41] <Flow> tobias: right, but what if bind2 becomes XMPP 2.0?
[20:05:43] <Ge0rG> My motivation is debugging as well, and really, we shouldn't make server operator lives even more complicated
[20:05:53] <bjc> honestly, not sure if i care about that, either, but there you go
[20:05:54] <Flow> bjc: no it does not
[20:06:02] <Arc> it could be streamlined
[20:06:06] <bjc> no? i haven't read bind2 yet
[20:06:32] <Tobias> it's the XEP with no external references :p
[20:06:38] <Ge0rG> There is no extra round-trip. The client politely asks, the server either approves or reassigns
[20:06:49] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:07:06] <bjc> it's a round trip if you have to ask, as opposed to just being assigned one
[20:07:12] <Ge0rG> Besides, we need some way to tell the server to kill the stale session anyway on a reconnect
[20:07:19] <Flow> I sometimes wish the bind element would be more explicit about the "politely asks" aspect
[20:07:46] <Flow> Ge0rG, why do we need that?
[20:07:54] *** Zash shows as "away"
[20:08:03] <Flow> The only party which has an advantage by removing the old stale session is the server, no?
[20:08:17] <Ge0rG> Flow: because I just killed and restarted my client, and I want to replace the previous session
[20:08:20] *** lonerz has left the room
[20:08:38] <Flow> because? I mean with carbons and such?
[20:08:45] <bjc> what flow said
[20:08:51] <Flow> hmm, probably stale presence, not sure
[20:08:55] <daniel> Ge0rG: the kill stale sessions can be done differently
[20:09:09] <daniel> It doesn't require custom resources
[20:09:17] <Flow> true
[20:09:21] <bjc> may be an issue with directed presence
[20:09:27] <Ge0rG> daniel: eg with 0198,which has its own session identifier
[20:09:34] <Flow> isn't directed presence send to bare JIDs?
[20:09:44] <bjc> full or bare
[20:09:50] <bjc> but for, eg, muc, it's full
[20:10:00] <Flow> ahh ok
[20:10:31] <Ge0rG> Flow: because of OMEMO for example, which talks to a given resource
[20:10:34] <bjc> not sure if it matters, at the end of the day, though
[20:10:51] <Flow> doesn't OMEMO talk to devices?
[20:10:54] <Ge0rG> (in mixed support situations)
[20:11:04] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[20:11:05] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[20:11:22] <daniel> What?
[20:11:30] <daniel> Omemo doesn't need resources
[20:11:34] <Tobias> Ge0rG, carbons?
[20:12:14] <Flow> But I don't see a problem extending <bind2/> with an optional <kill-previous-session resource='foo'/> element
[20:12:53] <daniel> Flow: yeah that's what I suggested yesterday
[20:13:08] <daniel> Or if bind 2 requires sm when can use sm for that
[20:13:19] <Flow> brrr "requires"
[20:13:32] <Ge0rG> Flow: that and <attempt-stream-resume id=bar>
[20:13:35] <Flow> I'd avoid hard dependencies when possible
[20:13:51] <Flow> hmm stream-resume doesn't make sense for bind2
[20:13:56] <Flow> stream-enable may does
[20:13:56] <bjc> why would you use sm over bosh instead of just using acks?
[20:14:06] <Ge0rG> Flow: if we want to clean up the mess, we need to make bold steps
[20:14:08] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[20:14:31] *** Kev has left the room
[20:14:32] <daniel> Flow: I don't have an opinion on that. But I said *if* it requires sm. Either that or do the kill-prevois element
[20:14:32] <Flow> right, but still, stream-resume doesn't make sense when using bind2
[20:15:13] <Ge0rG> Flow: stream-resume does make sense because it spares a round-trip and moves more logic into the server
[20:16:06] <Flow> if you do SASL auth followed by xep198 stream resume, then you don't need bind2
[20:16:20] <daniel> Flow: but in case it fails
[20:16:29] <daniel> It spares you a round trip
[20:16:31] <Flow> then you do bind2 with stream-enable
[20:16:47] <daniel> Flow: yes. And that's the extra round trip
[20:16:56] <daniel> That you have to do the bind
[20:16:58] <Ge0rG> Flow: or you just do bind2 with attempt-resume and the server does all the magic
[20:17:29] <Flow> ahh, got ya, fair point
[20:17:34] <daniel> (I'm not necessarily agreeing just explaining that it does save a round trip)
[20:18:11] *** Vinilox shows as "online"
[20:18:41] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[20:20:51] <Ge0rG> Ideally, as a client, I'd put (my last MAM id, resource, sm session) into the bind2 request and let the server do everything else
[20:21:29] <Flow> BTW: I did some related art yesterday. Ladies and Gentleman, I present you, the XMPP client session establishment state machine: https://goo.gl/photos/xg2yECoACUscsj6Z6
[20:21:35] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:22:08] <Flow> Ge0rg, the last MAM ID, so the server also sends you the missing messages?
[20:22:14] <Ge0rG> Flow: exactly
[20:22:42] <Flow> hmm, not sure if that's really required
[20:22:55] <Flow> I mean bind2 is there to solve a race condition
[20:23:03] <Flow> and not to make everything super optimized
[20:23:09] <Flow> at least that's how I see it
[20:23:12] <SamWhited> Flow: nice; I've got a few chunks of that drawn up in some details, and I've been meaning to complete the picture and try to get the full diagram drawn out. Good job
[20:23:42] <daniel> Sending the mam id would be a very bold move
[20:23:44] <Flow> SamWhited: I'm tikz'ing it and plan to put the tex into a public git
[20:23:51] <Ge0rG> Expected result: either stream resume, or:
- kill old session
- update old sm state according to delivered counter
- send all I missed from MAM
- bind new session
- enable carbons
[20:23:54] <daniel> Not sure if bind 2 wants to take that on
[20:24:01] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[20:24:23] <SamWhited> Flow: I'e got a few graphs here, feel free to borrow from them: https://bitbucket.org/SamWhited/xmppdocs/overview
[20:25:14] <Ge0rG> daniel: why not make bind2 explicitly support extension elements for MAM, sm etc
[20:26:39] <daniel> Ge0rG: I didn't say bold aren't good moves. I'm just not sure if this is something that Kev would be willing to do
[20:26:54] <Flow> SamWhited: will certainly have a look. thanks!
[20:26:57] *** Guus has left the room
[20:28:10] <Ge0rG> daniel: im not sure if Kev is the ultimate authority or if we want to make something that's good and future proof
[20:28:37] <Ge0rG> (not implying that we can't with Kev)
[20:28:50] *** Alex has left the room
[20:28:54] *** winfried shows as "away"
[20:29:12] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:30:22] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[20:31:33] <daniel> Ge0rG: sure. But you can't hijack kevs xep is what I'm saying.
[20:31:57] <daniel> 'hijack' and 'kevs'
[20:32:02] <Ge0rG> daniel: this is a shortcoming of the XEP process.
[20:32:16] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[20:32:36] <Ge0rG> If I had more time, I'd hijack a bunch of them.
[20:32:49] <daniel> Maybe it is...
[20:33:59] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:34:54] <Ge0rG> We can make bind2 something awesome and remove some cruft from the graph Flow shared.
[20:35:12] <Ge0rG> And not just a hot fix for a race condition.
[20:35:52] <Ge0rG> I wouldn't mind it becoming XMPP2. There are many problems in XMPP 1
[20:37:19] <SamWhited> I've been thinking about that a lot lately actually; redoing the login flow and calling it XMPP 1.1 or 2 or whatever; maybe fixing some of the erratas, or merging in XEPs that are now seen as necessary, etc.
[20:37:28] <SamWhited> Almost certainly not worth the effort though.
[20:37:42] *** Kev has joined the room
[20:37:43] *** Kev shows as "away"
[20:38:06] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: why not?
[20:38:41] *** bra shows as "xa" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[20:38:45] <SamWhited> Because everything would break, and most of the problems probably aren't bad enough that anyone would bother implementing it. Just a hunch though.
[20:38:52] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[20:38:55] <Ge0rG> Besides of the MAM carbon SM mess we could also get 2fa and one-time / per device passwords
[20:39:02] *** waqas has left the room
[20:39:04] <SamWhited> And the IETF-WG process is a big deal, and would take a massive amount of effort.
[20:39:20] <SamWhited> We can get that now without rewriting the whole RFC.
[20:39:30] <Kev> What I want to do with the bind2 spec is not to do anything complicated without a clear consensus.
[20:39:51] <Kev> Dave has possibly reasonable things he wants to do, including redoing all of SASL I think.
[20:40:04] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[20:40:41] <Kev> If that happens, it'd probably bin any work done on complicated things in bind2, which is why I'm not keen on boiling the ocean at this stage.
[20:40:49] <Ge0rG> Kev: I want to redo the things after SASL, and I have controversial ideas about it. Will post to the ML after my holiday (next week)
[20:40:58] *** xyz has left the room
[20:41:23] <Ge0rG> Kev: how does one thing bin the other?
[20:41:39] <Kev> My approach is "Do the simple things right now in bind2 so we can solve the real problems that need solving, then let someone write an elegant and future-proof reworking of the entire stream setup, and then rephrase bind2 in terms of that".
[20:41:51] <SamWhited> SASL itself is a pain to implement in a generic way; I haven't seen anything better, but I'm not sure the problems with it are just XMPP problems…
[20:42:05] <Kev> SamWhited: And then you start ratholing.
[20:42:14] <Kev> SamWhited: And then bind2 gets held up. And then we don't solve the immediate problems.
[20:42:20] <SamWhited> Exactly
[20:42:31] <Kev> Thus my approach of doing the simple thing first, and adapting once the complicated thing is done (if ever)
[20:42:44] <Kev> Maybe my simple thing is *too* simple, even for that plan, but that is my motivation.
[20:43:06] <SamWhited> Kevs approach ++; there are places where I think it's necessary to do a radical redesign, but in this case I suspect it's simpler and cleaner to do it incrementally. Especially since even the "simple" approach is a pretty big step.
[20:43:44] <Ge0rG> Just make bind2 extensible with additional elements for SM and MAM
[20:43:52] *** winfried shows as "online"
[20:43:58] *** Flow shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:46:11] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[20:46:48] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:53:22] *** winfried has left the room
[21:00:57] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:01:18] *** jubalh has left the room
[21:02:19] *** Sonny has left the room
[21:03:01] *** Sonny has joined the room
[21:04:06] *** Lance has joined the room
[21:04:07] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:05:49] *** mancho shows as "online"
[21:09:20] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[21:10:45] *** lonerz has joined the room
[21:10:48] *** mancho has left the room
[21:13:21] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[21:15:01] *** Flow shows as "online"
[21:16:16] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:17:32] *** Flow has left the room
[21:21:41] *** jubalh has joined the room
[21:25:53] *** Alex has joined the room
[21:26:16] *** lonerz has left the room
[21:26:35] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[21:26:35] *** Arc shows as "online"
[21:28:59] *** tobias has joined the room
[21:30:20] *** daniel has left the room
[21:30:34] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:30:48] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[21:30:52] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[21:32:13] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[21:36:53] *** daniel has joined the room
[21:47:18] *** lonerz has joined the room
[21:47:40] *** blipp has left the room
[21:47:44] *** blipp has joined the room
[21:48:36] *** lonerz has left the room
[21:51:17] *** Kev has left the room
[21:57:27] *** mancho shows as "online"
[21:57:42] *** Guus has left the room
[21:57:43] *** Guus has joined the room
[21:58:19] *** mancho has left the room
[21:58:28] *** mancho shows as "online"
[21:59:25] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[21:59:26] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[22:07:20] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:09:02] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:09:03] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[22:09:52] *** jubalh has left the room
[22:10:09] *** nyco shows as "online"
[22:13:59] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[22:16:07] *** Guus has left the room
[22:16:44] *** Guus has joined the room
[22:18:43] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:18:49] *** ralphm has left the room
[22:25:01] *** narcode shows as "away"
[22:28:06] *** waqas has joined the room
[22:31:53] *** pep. has left the room
[22:31:59] *** pep. shows as "online"
[22:32:55] *** Guus has left the room
[22:32:58] *** Guus has joined the room
[22:38:15] *** jubalh has joined the room
[22:39:50] *** Kev has joined the room
[22:39:50] *** Kev shows as "away"
[22:40:19] *** edhelas has left the room
[22:40:34] *** edhelas has joined the room
[22:41:27] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:42:48] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[22:43:24] *** mancho shows as "online"
[22:43:47] *** nyco has left the room
[22:43:52] *** nyco shows as "online"
[22:45:27] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:45:32] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:46:14] *** mancho has left the room
[22:47:45] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[22:53:09] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:53:09] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[22:53:29] *** goffi has left the room
[22:53:56] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:55:40] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:59:26] *** Alex has left the room
[23:00:15] *** daniel has left the room
[23:00:28] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[23:01:44] *** daniel has joined the room
[23:01:52] *** bjc has left the room
[23:07:02] *** jubalh has left the room
[23:10:29] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[23:15:53] *** mancho has left the room
[23:16:05] *** mancho shows as "online"
[23:16:40] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[23:18:08] *** lonerz has joined the room
[23:21:25] *** lonerz has left the room
[23:21:32] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[23:21:32] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[23:23:07] *** lonerz has joined the room
[23:23:59] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[23:23:59] *** Arc shows as "online"
[23:27:28] *** intosi has joined the room
[23:28:02] *** lonerz shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:28:32] *** lonerz shows as "online"
[23:29:26] *** lonerz shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:32:46] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[23:33:38] *** lonerz shows as "online"
[23:35:28] *** lonerz has left the room
[23:48:25] *** Sonny has left the room
[23:48:29] *** Sonny has joined the room
[23:50:56] *** mancho has left the room
[23:51:40] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:51:42] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[23:55:02] *** boothj5 has joined the room
[23:57:56] *** boothj5 has left the room