Monday, January 23, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[08:30:56] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[08:33:40] *** Yagiza shows as "dnd" and his status message is "いただきます (хаваю)!"
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[10:15:09] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
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[10:19:11] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
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[12:52:57] <Guus> Does anyone have experience with (XMPP-based) solutions that lets you add "chat" to existing web-based platforms?
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[12:53:34] <Zash> Like converse.js?
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[12:53:54] <Guus> I'm looking at stuff like CoBrowser and SmartSupp - those appear to be oriented towards "chat with one of our employees" - rather than allowing users to chat amongst themselves.
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[12:54:49] <Guus> Converse.JS is "simply" a web-based client. I'm wondering about a one-stope solution, of sorts, that includes server and client components
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[12:57:36] <Flow> Guus: isn't that what Jive's workgroup xep152 does?
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[12:58:49] <Guus> Flow: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0152.html "Reachability Address"? Are you referring to the Workgroup stuff (the FastPath implementation)?
[12:59:09] <Flow> Guus: typo, sorry, xep142,
[12:59:54] <Guus> Flow: that's more of the "ask our employee" stuff, for which I can find various service providers. I'm interested in providers that put more focus on the user-to-user / community aspect
[13:00:25] <Guus> (Yeah, 142 is the FastPath XEP, indeed)
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[13:02:12] <Guus> I'm trying to find a list of pros and cons, to compare "run your own server + chat implementations" vs. "use some kind of online service provider that you can integrate with"
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[13:02:34] <Ge0rG> I wonder why Kaiwa requires a node.js server to run... can't it operate like converse as a client-only thing?
[13:03:21] <Zash> Yeah, why must all web clients require so much stuff nowdays?
[13:03:21] <daniel> Ge0rG: I think it's just the webserver that serves the js files
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[13:03:50] <edhelas> Zash, what is "so much stuff" for you ?
[13:04:07] <Guus> why host things statically if you can make it overcomplicated, right? :)
[13:04:09] <Zash> Anything besides a static file server and a browser
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[13:04:48] <Ge0rG> daniel: it also seems to contain some crazy ldap frontend!? https://github.com/digicoop/kaiwa/blob/master/server.js
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[13:05:20] <daniel> Ge0rG: I think the fornever fork got rid of that
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[13:06:22] <Ge0rG> daniel: "You'll need Node.js 4.0+ and npm 3+." from fornever...
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[13:07:38] <daniel> Ge0rG: afaik that's just packaging and dependency resolving and stuff like that. Not actually running it
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[13:09:40] <Ge0rG> daniel: the README is rather short in that regard.
[13:10:08] <Ge0rG> daniel: I can imagine that the server component does the socket forwarding to the actual server as well, due to typical web browser cross-domain limitations
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[13:13:34] <Ge0rG> I'm looking for a web client that doesn't look ugly and supports at least a bunch of useful ("modern") things.
[13:14:38] <Ge0rG> Converse is just a popup, not a full page, candy is not beautiful, and kaiwa requires nodejs
[13:14:58] <mathieui> Ge0rG, movim?
[13:15:10] <mathieui> well, it’s not all-"web" so it might not fit
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[13:16:03] <Zash> Is there someone we can throw money at in exchange for a no-bullshit modern web client?
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[13:16:44] <Ge0rG> mathieui: what does 'not all-"web"' mean?
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[13:17:00] <Guus> yes. But it's likely going to be more money that you're willing to spend...
[13:17:01] <daniel> Zash: I'm definitely willing to participate in the money throwing process
[13:17:49] <daniel> I've been unsuccessful in finding someone who is able to get kaiwa into a usable state though
[13:18:03] <mathieui> Ge0rG, I mean, it’s an xmpp client, but it’s has a server and a client part too
[13:18:15] <mathieui> -’s
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[13:18:48] <Kev> Swift-Web is done with a server component, too.
[13:18:52] <Zash> Ge0rG: What's ugly about Candy btw?
[13:19:05] <Ge0rG> Zash: it's very minimalistic
[13:19:08] <Zash> Kev: Never heard of
[13:19:12] <Zash> Ge0rG: I like minimalistic
[13:19:34] <Guus> (Kev: for what purpose?)
[13:19:40] <Kev> XMPP to the browser is a nice idea, but terminating on the server makes quite a lot of things easier and/or possible. I was clearly wrong when I objected to Lloyd doing this years ago.
[13:19:41] <mathieui> candy is also abandoned and has quite a number of issues, if I remember correctly
[13:19:46] <fippo> ge0rg: because bear had not been beating up lance enough at the point in time otalk.im was written and kaiwa is just a frontend fork? :-p
[13:19:53] <Kev> Zash: You woludn't have, it's not shipped yet so I don't mention it.
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[13:20:21] <Guus> Candy is limited to MUC, isn't it?
[13:20:27] <Zash> Kev: MVC with the MC part serverside?
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[13:20:32] <Zash> Guus: Yes
[13:20:34] <Guus> (no rosters, no direct chats other than MUC one-on-oneś)
[13:20:36] <Kev> Guus: It does nice things like supporting browser resets and things.
[13:20:51] <Kev> Zash: Something not a million miles away from that.
[13:20:55] <Ge0rG> Kev: can't you have all the nice things with HTML5+JS SPAs?
[13:21:57] <Guus> Kev: is there any info on it online?
[13:22:05] <Kev> Guus: None, sorry.
[13:22:35] <Guus> Kev: ETA?
[13:22:40] <Guus> (ballpark)
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[13:23:35] <Kev> I don't have one, sorry. I hate giving dates and being wrong. It's unlikely to be Free, though, so I suspect that means it's not interesting to you.
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[13:24:29] <Ge0rG> fippo: pardon?
[13:25:38] <Guus> Kev: you might be wrong there. I mentioned above that i'm interested in paid versions of 'chat service' implementations - especially when they're more than the "click here to chat with one of our support members" types of propositions that I've found so far.
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[13:28:21] <fippo> ge0rg: there is a lot of backstory behind kaiwa and otalk.im...
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[13:29:23] <Ge0rG> fippo: what I'm wondering is if it would work when served from apache, without nodejs, or if it makes sense to make a feature request for that
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[13:30:25] <fippo> ge0rg: kaiwa is still developed? the reason for a node server was that webpack wasn't available back when this stuff was written and webpack makes it very easy to generate a static file that you can upload
[13:31:10] <Ge0rG> fippo: I don't know if it is still developed.
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[14:37:06] <Holger> The ForNeVeR fork (<https://github.com/ForNeVeR/Kaiwa>) is still somewhat alive.
[14:37:31] <Ge0rG> But also requires nodejs.
[14:37:48] <Ge0rG> All I want is a nice web frontend to xmpp :>
[14:38:04] <Zash> If you want something done, you usually have to do it yourself.
[14:38:32] <Holger> Ge0rG: I think there was a way to serve the ForNeVeR fork statically. But it might be undocumented. Or nonexistent.
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[14:40:54] <Ge0rG> Zash: I can't do everything myself.
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[14:43:45] <MattJ> Me neither
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[14:45:33] <Ge0rG> MattJ: which reminds me... we have a new week now! :P
[14:45:41] <MattJ> :/
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[14:46:12] <Zash> Is the XSF ical file being update properly now? poke SamWhited?
[14:46:19] <Zash> files* maybe?
[14:46:35] <Zash> Looks like
[14:46:44] <Ge0rG> MattJ: I've been hunting a MUC joining bug in yaxim for half a year or so, and I'm pretty sure it is caused by mod_throttle_presence. But essentially I can't prove it until the latter is fixed :(
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[14:46:59] <Zash> Ge0rG: Try the other one I published recently?
[14:49:17] <Tobias> Zash, just would nee a nice JS based display widget on xmpp.org website :)
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[14:50:35] <SamWhited> Zash: we have an ical file?
[14:50:44] <SamWhited> (actually, someone told me about this, but I have no idea where it is or where it comes from)
[14:50:45] <Zash> Apparnently
[14:50:55] <Zash> And it has recent XEPs in it
[14:52:06] <Ge0rG> Now we only need an RSS feed! Let's bring 2000ies tech back to live
[14:52:13] <Ge0rG> Now we only need an RSS feed! Let's bring 2000ies tech back to life
[14:52:45] <Zash> SamWhited: whatever this is http://xmpp.org/calendar/xsf-all.ics
[14:53:11] <SamWhited> Be careful, it's been years but I still disolve into pools of tears at the mention of Google Reader… I miss my feeds.
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[14:54:16] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: I'm using tt-rss for many years now. Sometimes it pays off to pick a decentralized crappy solution over a Google property.
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[14:55:45] <SamWhited> I looked into that one, and vaguely remember thinking it was a security disaster waiting to happen, but that was a while ago, don't remember why. Possibly just because it's all written in PHP.
[14:56:10] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: yeah, you can't deploy PHP without http auth.
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[14:58:38] <Tobias> SamWhited, back in the old days we used https://github.com/buddycloud/buddycloud-xep/blob/master/xmpp/calgen.py to generate calendars
[14:59:18] <Tobias> but that script seems to be in none of our repos today
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[15:04:25] <Tobias> who knows what other fancy tools are there in the past :)
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[19:07:44] <Guus> I tried this half a day ago, but since the other side of the world is awake now, I'll rephrase my question one more time:
[19:07:48] <Guus> I'm looking for an IM-as-a-service type of solution, (integration with web, possibly also mobile/desktop), that is not limited to "chat with one of our support staff" type of solutions. An alternative to something that you'd roll on your own as a combination of Converse/Candy et.al., a couple of desktop and mobile clients, and a server of choice. I am aware of the existence of services like smartsupp.com and cobrowser.nl, but those are very support-oriented (and limited to a web integration only, as far as I can tell). I'm looking for something that allows users the communicate amongst themselves.
[19:07:54] <Guus> Thoughts?
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[19:13:47] <edhelas> Guus, Movim
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[19:19:02] <Guus> edhelas: Perhaps. I was under the impression that Movim was more of a complete social network in itself (instead of somethign that you'd easily integrate with an existing platform)?
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[19:24:25] <edhelas> well you can tune it, depends what you say about "integration"
[19:24:48] <edhelas> but if you want a mini-chat on the bottom-right of your website, no it doesn't fit
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[20:05:19] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[20:10:15] <mimi89999> Is XEP-0066 obsolete?
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[20:12:29] <SamWhited> No, but if you're using it for media then xep-0385 may be a better choice (although I don't think many people have had a chance to implement it yet)
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[21:41:41] <moparisthebest> Guus: owncloud had a client only xmpp client plugin but now it can run a server too, whole xmpp server in PHP as plugin
[21:41:59] <moparisthebest> I'm sure it's great /sarcasm :-)
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