XSF Discussion - 2017-03-05


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  95. jonasw arc: you should make a talk about that :-)
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  124. fippo spam pointing me to a jid on antispam.im... oh the irony (-:
  125. Tobias totally makes sense for spamproviders and antispam providers being in the same boat...the same works for cloundflare, who provide DDoS protection for DDoS booter sites ;)
  126. Tobias *booster
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  248. daniel Is there a reason muc doesn't force all resources into using the same nick?
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  251. SamWhited I've honestly never considered that… I kind of want to go try it just to see how things behave.
  252. jonasw "boom"
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  255. daniel the reason i'm asking is because ejabberd now supports merging and parting multi sessions nicks. and Conversations behaves pretty badly when you actually try it
  256. daniel and gajim is even worse
  257. daniel which kinda lets me believe that this is a problem that can not really be fixed
  258. jonasw you could fix it in conversations, couldn’t you?
  259. SamWhited Where "this" == "MUC"
  260. jonasw also, where can I test how bad pidgin breaks?
  261. SamWhited I'd be curious to see how other clients behave though; theoretically clients have to accept whatever NIC the server gives them, so I'd *think* this would "just work", but never underestimate client devs ability to ignore the spec :)
  262. SamWhited Nick, even.
  263. daniel jonasw, yes and i'm about to. i'm mostly done
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  265. daniel however that's like soo many edge cases to consider
  266. daniel i'm confident that *I* will get that to work somehow. but i'm not sure for like 99% of the other clients out there
  267. daniel in that regard forcing a clients into the same nick might actually be the smoother edge case
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  269. SamWhited On a similar note, why don't servers let you change to an existing nick if it's also owned by another resource? Every time I try to change my nick in Conversations ot a new room I'm in from the default one it sets I get the dreaded "nick already in use", and then have to part/join to use my own nick.
  270. SamWhited It seems like this could work; but most of my intuitions about MUC end up being wrong, so…
  271. jonasw if I understand you correctly, that’s one of the thigs ejabberd now allows and it’s simply because of "we don’t implement that" when it doesn’t work
  272. daniel SamWhited: yes I think that's a recent thing that ejabberd allow that now.
  273. daniel Prosody still prevents this
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  275. SamWhited Excellent; all MUCs need to switch to ejabberd. That's quite possibly my biggest annoyance when using Conversations, I'd never considered that you could fix it on the server with either of these changes.
  276. jonasw I think Zash mentioned that it’ll be a thing with prosody in 0.10 too
  277. jonasw but I might be wrong
  278. daniel SamWhited: the nick already in use is a server error
  279. daniel Meaning you have to fix it on the server side
  280. daniel That's not a Conversations check
  281. SamWhited Yah, I'd always wanted to fix the symptom, not the problem (by having a "default nick" setting in Conversations)
  282. SamWhited I'd still like that, because I'd still like a default nick on servers that don't force all resources to the same nick, but it would definitely be better if the error were fixed on the server too.
  283. SamWhited Although, even if you force all clients to the same nick, nick changes would still be break things I guess because I don't *think* there's a way to force clients to change their nick if they don't request it.
  284. SamWhited thinks out loud even though you've probably been through all this reasoning before because MUC is hard…
  285. jonasw SamWhited: xep 45, around example 51: If the service modifies the user's nickname in accordance with local service policies, it MUST include a MUC status code of 210 in the presence stanza sent to the user. An example follows (here the service changes the nickname to all lowercase).
  286. daniel and now that i fixed most of the bugs in conversations i think there is a bug in ejabberd
  287. jonasw not clear whether that can happen out of the blue
  288. daniel Holger, when i'm joined with two clients A and B both using the nick x and client A changes the nick to y client B will see y join (which is correct) but client A wont see x join
  289. daniel which i think would be the correct behaviour...
  290. daniel but the fact that i'm not even sure about that doesn't speak for MUC
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  293. jonasw ugh
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  299. daniel another thing you wouldn't have to worry about when forcing all clients in the same nick; if you you receive a message from another client with a different nick; does this count as a sent or as a received message?
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  302. jonasw ugh
  303. jonasw can we have MIX please.
  304. daniel in Conversations it actually counts as a received message; which totally confused me when testing multi session nicks; but in general this is probably expected behaviour?
  305. kaboom daniel: it's a received message, and: does forcing nick mean that I can no longer join a MUC with different nicks per resource?
  306. daniel kaboom, that whati mean by forcing the nick
  307. kaboom but, why?
  308. kaboom I use that as a feature...
  309. daniel kaboom, because it would get rid of *a lot* of problems
  310. daniel kaboom, https://xkcd.com/1172/
  311. SamWhited Is there any other big multi-user chat system that allows different clients using the same account to show up as different nicks? I don't know of any.
  312. kaboom you can already have multiple resources share a nick optionally, why force it?
  313. SamWhited > kaboom, because it would get rid of *a lot* of problems
  314. kaboom what problems?
  315. daniel those i just described
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  349. MattJ There are a lot of corner cases on the server wide with nick sharing
  350. MattJ Prosody just doesn't let you change nick if you are sharing it with another resource, decided the complexity to implement it correctly wasn't worth it for the one person that might one day need this feature :)
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  352. daniel MattJ: I'm sure. However I'm starting to assume that (forced) nick sharing has fewer corner cases than allowing client to merge and split their nicks
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  354. MattJ I'd potentially be ok with that (forcing you to use a nick you are already using), but I don't really see a need for it
  355. MattJ It's probably what users want in (almost?) all cases
  356. MattJ The main problem is that from what I've seen, clients haven't traditionally been very good at handling server-forced nick changes
  357. daniel MattJ: well I'm kinda starting to assume that this will be easier for clients and maybe even for servers. Gajim for example has completely broken behavior when joining and splitting nicks
  358. MattJ I'm not sure why clients should have any issue with it, if the server does it correctly
  359. Ge0rG prosody's current behavior makes it really hard to change your nickname if you are using two clients, already.
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  361. MattJ s/hard/impossible/? (unless you rejoin)
  362. Ge0rG MattJ: yes, unless you rejoin with all clients at the same time. it's a PITA
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  364. MattJ Oh, you want to change nick on all clients
  365. MattJ Yeah, we could implement it, but again, is it really useful? and then... will clients handle it?
  366. Ge0rG It might be a good thing to enforce the nick change over all clients as well
  367. Ge0rG I'm sure clients will love to receive a new nickname
  368. MattJ Exactly
  369. Ge0rG I still don't see how any part of MSN can negatively affect the client-side protocol implementation
  370. MattJ No, I think it can always be transparent to clients if done correctly
  371. MattJ But it's really hard to do correctly
  372. daniel https://share.gultsch.de/daniel/2QCLUVwufHdGb2xM/7yWOlGliQhCohcZwJlpvdQ.jpg
  373. daniel My gajim has a different story to tell on that
  374. Ge0rG what MattJ said.
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  376. Ge0rG daniel: it's a received message if it comes from another nickname, and it's a sent message if it comes from another nickname. just ignore the non-anon-MUC JID ;)
  377. MattJ The server has remote code execution on the client for the following operations: nick joined, nick changed, nick left
  378. Ge0rG daniel: and what you described above sounds like a bug in ejabberd
  379. MattJ i.e. it has full control over the nick list
  380. MattJ in every client
  381. Ge0rG the thing with "sent" messages in a MUC is: how do you know if it's the one you sent right now or a message from an MSN client?
  382. MattJ To implement every operation for nick sharing, you have to stop thinking about room state management and code for client state management instead
  383. Ge0rG MattJ: you need to think about both, actually.
  384. Ge0rG Still, I'd love to have prosody either implement nick-split and nick-join, or to enforce a nick-change over all MSN resources
  385. Ge0rG the current situation is really cumbersome, especially with clients that disallow editing a MUC you are not joined to *cough*conversations*cough*
  386. MattJ I think enforcing nick change is likely the easiest, but I don't think many clients handle it
  387. MattJ Maybe we should just try that and see
  388. Ge0rG MattJ: +1 to that.
  389. Ge0rG MattJ: I'm sure it affects the same clients that fail to recognize that your nickchange was rejected by the server.
  390. daniel MattJ, if a client doesn't handle nick changes; how can you expect them to handle the merging and seperation of nicks properly
  391. Ge0rG daniel: because merge and separation are join and leave events for a different participant
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  393. Ge0rG daniel: when you initiate a nick change, you see that change followed by a join of your other client, everybody else (including the other client) will see your new nickname joining
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  404. Zash daniel: I haven't seen any client handle forced nicknames
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  406. daniel Zash, conversations certainly does. I haven't check others
  407. daniel sure that's not common?
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  409. Zash daniel: all I tested broke in varying ways
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  432. Ge0rG Zash: now I'm surprised. They break on forced nick change, but not when the server denies a change?
  433. Zash Nick override on join at least
  434. Ge0rG My client doesn't even always recognize MUC events.
  435. Ge0rG Something is leaking presence listeners...
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  440. kaboom Just for the record: because most clients an servers fail to properly implement nick split/join, you want to remove the feature of being present with multiple nicks completely. Ever thought of removing just the split/join and forbid nick changes when being online with multiple resources? Solves the problem without losing a totally unrelated feature...
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  444. Ge0rG kaboom: prosody forbids nick changes for MSN, and it's a usability nightmare
  445. Ge0rG Error> xsf@muc.xmpp.org/Zash: modify: Unknown error
  446. Ge0rG Hm. something is wrong
  447. Zash Didn't I disable mod_firewall?
  448. Ge0rG 21:18:06 IN <message type="error" id="3ca0c0b6-3334-45f3-a65d-5d5d4a974adb-8D9B" to="georg@yax.im/9f1e6da6-2e3c-46d5-80ab-e73ac32d4719" from="xsf@muc.xmpp.org/Zash"><error type="modify"><policy-violation xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas" /></error></message>
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  451. Ge0rG I wonder why Zash isn't kicked for sending errors to the MUC
  452. MattJ Only certain errors are "kickable"
  453. MattJ The list isn't standardized
  454. Ge0rG Yay.
  455. MattJ Don't dig any deeper
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  457. waqas Kicking on error isn't standardized, is it?
  458. MattJ No, I don't think so
  459. Ge0rG is there even one place in XEP 0045 that is properly standardized?
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