Tuesday, March 14, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:02:07] <nyco> efrit: a Slashdot "debate" is taking place around this, and the failure of XMPP
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[07:35:52] <Zash> Slashdot still exists?
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[07:53:00] <Ge0rG> And it's full of dumb trolls. Nothing changed in the last 15 years
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[08:02:59] <ralphm> I Soviet Russia, trolls dumb you.
[08:03:08] <ralphm> In Soviet Russia, trolls dumb you.
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[08:05:01] <uc> Ge0rG: or paid trolls? I will not be surprised if it's some company's PR marketing
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[08:07:06] <Zash> Fake news regarding our demise?
[08:07:43] <uc> Aand someone linked to this https://m.imgur.com/nfivrKQ?r
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[08:08:37] <jonasw> as I said, someone needs to create a client which comes bundled with an XMPP server and hand-picked and automatically set up transports.
[08:09:36] <Zash> Do it, then talk about it.
[08:10:04] <jonasw> Zash: it’s on my todo actually. at least IRC, because I have usecases for that myself. Prosody would be the bundled server ;-)
[08:10:52] <rion> I believe libtransport is designed almost for this.
[08:10:58] <jonasw> is that spectrum?
[08:11:05] <rion> yep
[08:11:10] <Zash> uc: that was the original purpose of jabber, back in the day, to unite all different chat systems using bridges
[08:11:12] <jonasw> my experience with spectrum is unfortunately rather bad
[08:11:45] <Ge0rG> uc: I really can't imagine a company being dumb enough to pay for /. propaganda.
[08:12:04] <Ge0rG> uc: OTOH, marketing is usually led by a huge amount of heroine, so who knows.
[08:12:32] <Ge0rG> doesn't spectrum also bundle libpurple?
[08:12:48] <Ge0rG> I still have nightmares about exposing an internet service that's linked against libpurple.
[08:12:49] <jonasw> it depends on it, yes.
[08:13:20] <uc> Ge0rG: but are trying reinvent the wheel
lol
[08:13:36] <jonasw> I think the multiline makes your client
QUIT :with a nice message
issue was also due to libpurple. Or maybe that was libcommuni and libpurple just had the
/quit on the first line to quit your client with a nice message
[08:13:37] <jonasw> issue.
[08:14:24] <Zash> Does it still depend on gtk & co?
[08:15:17] <jonasw> but no point in bashing projects which at least try to do something better. especially if I haven’t taken the time to look into that multi-line thing
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[09:03:28] <Guus> So, psa is stepping down. Now what?
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[09:14:57] <Kev> Board choose a new ED. That's about it :)
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[09:17:06] <Ge0rG> what's the job of the ED?
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[09:24:40] <Guus> (what he asked)
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[09:33:58] <dwd> "Get stuff done". More or less.
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[09:35:41] <dwd> Bylaws, section 6.6 has the details, but the ED's job is to ensure that the Board's resolutions are carried out, and signs any contracts.
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[11:34:27] <Ge0rG> so, what's the consensus of yesterday's "how much do we trust a remote MUC" debate?
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[11:48:02] *Ge0rG just had a really weird moment. Sitting in a regional train, I see an ad on the built-in display... "no ads... good battery use... the app for whistleblowers". Turned out to be a review of OWS' Signal by some smartphone news portal.
[11:48:15] <Ge0rG> At least I hope so. The alternative would be moxie haunting me.
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[13:52:04] <SamWhited> According to some rapid grepping; Peter is an author of 59% of all XEPs. Perhapse we should consider minting the position fo "Executive Director Emeritus"
[13:52:49] <Guus> +1
[13:52:54] <jonasw> yeah, I also feel that PSA might deserve some permanent honouary mention somewhere
[13:53:50] <Kev> Generally, things like that have happened when someone leaves the XSF, I believe.
[13:54:15] <SamWhited> In that case, let's make sure we never mint the position of "Executive Director Emeritus" :)
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[13:55:09] <Kev> We do have Emeritus members.
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[13:58:20] <Guus> Those should perhaps get some more exposure?
[13:58:23] <dwd> Kev, Yes, but they're not "normal" members - you can't be both.
[13:58:42] <Kev> dwd: See what I said earlier about 'when someone leaves the XSF' :)
[13:58:54] <Guus> https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation.html does not list them, nor does https://xmpp.org/community/membership.html
[13:58:58] <dwd> Kev, Ah, yes. Missed that, sorry.
[14:01:18] <Guus> Who are our Emeritus members?
[14:02:02] <Kev> They should be listed on the website.
[14:02:11] <Kev> So I wonder if this was something lost in the Great Website Improvement.
[14:03:10] <Guus> it is why I asked - couldn't quickly identify them on the website
[14:03:39] <Guus> There is this awesome announcement for summit 19 though: https://xmpp.org/community/events.html
[14:05:36] <Guus> https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/275
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[14:06:19] <Guus> https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/276
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[14:15:32] <Alex> emeritus members are listed at the end here:
https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/members
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[14:16:14] <Alex> in the past they were proposed on the memberlist and we voted on them.
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[14:19:25] <Guus> Ah, thanks Alex
[14:20:04] <Guus> should we, perhaps, dedicate a bit more of virtual space to them? Define why they're considered emeritus members, for instance?
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[14:26:43] <Kev> Probably, yes.
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[14:36:27] <SamWhited> moparisthebest: Possible future update for XEP-0368; I was adding a section to register the SRV services and realized that there's no actual example of what a full direct-TLS SRV record should look like. That would probably make things a lot easier on people creating one.
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[14:38:05] <moparisthebest> yea it could, I didn't know how much of the SRV spec I should put in there
[14:38:15] <moparisthebest> I don't mind more examples or anything though
[14:38:35] <SamWhited> I don't think you need any of the SRV spec, just an example of what the thing you're describing actually looks like so I can copy/paste it into bind9 or wherever and call it a day and not read the spec :)
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[14:41:20] <SamWhited> I started to add an SRV registration, but I was looking at the wrong thing (protocol registry, not service registry) and I don't think there's such a thing as registering a service, so maybe there's nothing to do here. I can't find anything that creates such a registry anyways.
[14:42:14] <SamWhited> Or rather, I think it's just part of the port number registry, but since we don't actually have port numbers for this it probably doesn't matter.
[14:42:50] <jonasw> hm, it may matter
[14:43:00] <jonasw> we should probably get a port for this then
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[14:43:23] <jonasw> or raise the issue with the people responsible for SRV, because having fixed ports allocated does not make sense in this context
[14:43:42] <SamWhited> I don't think there's an issue to raise; we don't have a port, so nothing to do here.
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[14:45:36] <jonasw> what I mean is: there are several use-cases for SRV records. you don’t want conflicts in the Service field. but you also don’t want to have a port allocation for each of these use cases, because it doesn’t make sense with SRV-native applications (as the port is in the record itself). I don’t think that is covered by the SRV-RFC (by looking at it quickly)
[14:46:31] <jonasw> it’s not like we *have* to do anything here, but I wonder what the SRV peoples stance on this is
[14:46:42] <SamWhited> We have the protocol registered, so there won't be conflicts in the service field because we'd have to write a new XEP to create a duplicate service under the xmpp-client or xmpp-server protocol.
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[14:49:58] <dwd> Glancing through RFC 2782, it seems to suggest that if there *is* a name in Assigned Numbers, that's the name to use, but otherwise there's nothing. So maybe nothing is needed.
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[14:51:28] <dwd> Although https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gudmundsson-dns-srv-iana-registry-04 - but that seems to have stalled. Seems to be an individual effort - we should probably ask our friendly Area Director what to do.
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[14:54:04] <SamWhited> we need a dedicated registrar who knows this stuff; I can barely keep just the editor things in my head
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[15:01:49] <dwd> SamWhited, Agreed. The "XMPP Registrar" is meant to do this, and is currently sort-of the Editor - finding a body to do this would seem sensible.
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[15:04:14] <Kev> Sam's suffering a little bit from us deciding Editor was too big a job for one person and needed a team...and then Sam ended up being (more or less) the only active person on that team.
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[15:12:35] <dwd> Kev, Indeed.
[15:13:20] <SamWhited> I think it's mostly a matter of tooling and process; the jobs small enough for one person (or could be done by a number of people pretty easily without them getting in eachothers way), there's just a lot of shit to do that could be automated (which I will eventually get fed up enough to do)
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[15:13:47] *SamWhited is not sure why publishing an XEP requires anything more than "merge to master and wait for Travis to email you saying it's published or you broke it"
[15:14:14] <Kev> SamWhited: Hysterical Raisins, partly.
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[15:14:31] <Kev> In the olden days, stuff got pushed to master as a WIP.
[15:15:02] <SamWhited> (I have never heard that term; this is great, Kev ++)
[15:15:23] <jonasw> SamWhited: which parts could use automation?
[15:15:49] <Kev> SamWhited: I got it from a colleague of mine, although I'm happy to take credit.
[15:15:58] <jonasw> .oO(<http://catb.org/jargon/html/H/hysterical-reasons.html>;)
[15:16:12] <SamWhited> jonasw: All of it. Any time I have to touch a script (sourcing a python virtualenv, generating the XEP, sending an email, sending an IPR thing, etc.) is a place where I could screw up, and none of it requires human intervention.
[15:16:38] <jonasw> SamWhited: I am not familiar with the editor process, but I’m familiar with automating stuff
[15:16:59] <SamWhited> Oh reeaallly… be careful what you say out loud :)
[15:17:11] <jonasw> *shrug*
[15:17:15] <jonasw> I know why I said that :)
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[15:18:02] <dwd> SamWhited, I can take on XMPP Registrar if nobody else will, I think. Although I'd appreciate borrowing jonasw's automation skillz if he's offering freely.
[15:18:33] <jonasw> although I’m not sure what you’d need a python virtualenv for in the editing process.
[15:19:02] <SamWhited> jonasw: it uses some texml library that can only be found on an ancient sourceforge repo and doesn't exist in any packaged form that I can find
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[15:19:24] <SamWhited> But the build process isn't something I want to touch personally; just automating it.
[15:19:52] <jonasw> holy the heck wat.
[15:20:16] <SamWhited> http://getfo.org/texml/ is how we generate PDFs
[15:20:26] <jonasw> yeah, figured from grep + wikipedia
[15:21:56] <SamWhited> jonasw: But yah, if you're actually interested in helping automate some stuff, a good one that I think could be done first and easily since it's sort of separate from the rest of the process is signing IPR releases. Just setting up a CLA bot or something so that the first time people make a PR on GitHub it makes them sign the release would be super helpful.
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[15:22:07] <SamWhited> I forget to send it all the time, and I'm sure that's a bad thing for some reason.
[15:22:24] <jonasw> what is CLA?
[15:22:37] <Kev> Contributor License Agreement
[15:22:55] <jonasw> SamWhited: fun though, I think you owe me an IPR release then.
[15:23:05] <SamWhited> Yah, we don't have one of those, but the bots could be used for making people sign our intellectual property release just the same way
[15:23:10] <SamWhited> jonasw: Do I? Probably…
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[15:26:11] <jonasw> are you specifically talking about that thing here? https://clabot.github.io/
[15:26:30] <SamWhited> not specifically; there are a ton of them. No idea which ones are good or nto.
[15:26:32] <SamWhited> *not
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[15:27:05] <moparisthebest> SamWhited, so re https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/447 my only nit is it doesn't say it needs registered in the ALPN section anymore, there are a lot of TLS extensions on that page
[15:28:07] <SamWhited> moparisthebest: Oops; yah, not sure how to do that and make it an entity which can be linked elsewhere. Maybe it doesn't matter; the main thing I was trying to do is just not make the link the word "here" (these are printed too)
[15:28:28] <moparisthebest> yea I don't like linked here's either
[15:28:39] <moparisthebest> maybe just mention these ALPN Protocol IDs need registered then?
[15:29:16] <SamWhited> makes sense, I'll try to improve the wording. Or we can just ditch this PR, I only made it because I thought I needed to add an SRV section, but then I didn't so I just removed it and submitted the tweaks I'd done for readability
[15:30:20] <moparisthebest> I like the rest of the tweaks
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[20:03:06] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[20:03:09] *** kalkin shows as "online"
[20:05:58] *** narcode shows as "online"
[20:06:55] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[20:07:00] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[20:07:00] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[20:07:00] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[20:09:36] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:12:41] *** nyco shows as "online"
[20:12:52] *** ralphm has left the room
[20:13:23] *** bra shows as "xa" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[20:14:31] *** sonny has joined the room
[20:17:06] *** suzyo has joined the room
[20:20:39] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[20:20:40] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[20:20:40] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[20:20:46] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[20:20:46] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[20:23:14] *** nyco shows as "online"
[20:23:27] *** nicolas.verite has joined the room
[20:25:07] *** nicolas.verite has left the room
[20:25:25] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:28:38] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[20:29:11] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:29:53] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:29:56] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:30:11] *** SamWhited has left the room
[20:33:12] *** Mancho has left the room
[20:38:33] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:41:32] *** ralphm has left the room
[20:41:39] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:42:26] *** nyco has left the room
[20:43:17] *** jere has joined the room
[20:44:13] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:44:30] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:45:00] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[20:47:44] *** nyco shows as "online"
[20:47:54] *** nicolas.verite has joined the room
[20:52:04] *** nyco has left the room
[20:54:32] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:57:44] *** nyco shows as "online"
[20:59:10] *** nicolas.verite has left the room
[21:00:07] *** Mancho shows as "online"
[21:03:26] *** Guus shows as "online"
[21:06:20] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[21:06:25] *** daniel has left the room
[21:06:40] *** daniel has joined the room
[21:07:26] *** SamWhited has left the room
[21:10:18] *** ilmaisin shows as "away"
[21:11:59] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:12:34] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:12:56] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[21:14:02] *** sezuan shows as "online"
[21:14:20] *** Ge0rG shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:14:50] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:15:38] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:17:46] *** kalkin has left the room
[21:18:14] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:19:17] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:22:54] *** Guus has left the room
[21:24:19] *** Ge0rG shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:30:52] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[21:31:52] *** arc has joined the room
[21:32:24] *** Guus has left the room
[21:32:46] *** nyco shows as "online"
[21:32:59] *** Guus has joined the room
[21:39:56] *** kalkin shows as "online"
[21:40:13] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[21:42:42] *** nyco shows as "online"
[21:43:12] *** sonny has left the room
[21:44:32] *** Valerian shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:44:32] *** Valerian shows as "online"
[21:46:13] *** sonny has joined the room
[21:46:36] *** Valerian has left the room
[21:47:43] *** boothj5 has joined the room
[21:59:16] *** intosi has left the room
[22:00:33] *** vurpo has left the room
[22:00:39] *** vurpo has joined the room
[22:02:15] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[22:02:44] *** nyco shows as "online"
[22:06:11] *** sezuan has left the room
[22:06:13] *** sezuan shows as "online"
[22:12:11] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[22:12:54] *** nicolas.verite has joined the room
[22:21:59] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[22:25:31] *** ralphm has left the room
[22:25:39] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:29:46] *** suzyo has left the room
[22:32:14] *** kalkin has left the room
[22:34:55] *** vurpo has left the room
[22:34:56] *** vurpo has joined the room
[22:36:33] *** efrit has joined the room
[22:37:54] *** vurpo has left the room
[22:37:57] *** vurpo has joined the room
[22:40:59] *** Link Mauve shows as "xa"
[22:43:00] *** nyco shows as "online"
[22:44:05] *** Mancho shows as "online"
[22:46:46] *** Mancho has left the room
[22:48:10] *** Mancho has left the room
[22:48:48] *** goffi has left the room
[22:50:46] *** vurpo has left the room
[22:50:48] *** vurpo has joined the room
[22:53:24] *** efrit has left the room
[22:53:37] *** efrit has joined the room
[22:55:45] *** sonny has left the room
[22:56:14] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[22:58:54] *** sezuan has left the room
[22:59:04] *** sezuan shows as "online"
[23:02:02] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:04:48] *** vurpo has left the room
[23:04:50] *** vurpo has joined the room
[23:05:15] *** sezuan has left the room
[23:05:24] *** sezuan shows as "online"
[23:16:39] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[23:18:08] *** sonny has joined the room
[23:33:28] *** vurpo has left the room
[23:33:45] *** vurpo has joined the room
[23:36:40] *** vurpo has left the room
[23:36:55] *** vurpo has joined the room
[23:37:59] *** kaboom has left the room
[23:37:59] *** kaboom shows as "online"
[23:38:10] *** kaboom shows as "online"
[23:38:53] *** kaboom has left the room
[23:40:38] *** blipp has left the room
[23:40:46] *** blipp has joined the room
[23:41:31] *** vurpo has left the room
[23:42:11] *** vurpo has joined the room
[23:47:15] *** kaboom shows as "online"
[23:47:35] *** kaboom has left the room
[23:47:39] *** bra has left the room
[23:47:41] *** bra has joined the room
[23:48:09] *** kaboom shows as "online"
[23:48:25] *** kaboom has left the room
[23:53:47] *** kaboom shows as "online"
[23:55:42] *** kaboom has left the room
[23:56:43] *** kaboom shows as "online"
[23:56:45] *** kaboom has left the room
[23:58:20] *** kaboom shows as "online"
[23:58:23] *** kaboom has left the room
[23:59:16] *** boothj5 has left the room
[23:59:25] *** kaboom shows as "online"
[23:59:28] *** kaboom has left the room
[23:59:42] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"