XSF Discussion - 2017-03-15


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  140. Tobias subscription request rejections are broadcasted to other resources, right?
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  143. jonasw Tobias: hmm, I cannot find that in RFC 6121. There is only (in section 3.2.3): The contact's server then MUST send a roster push with the updated roster item to all of the contact's interested resources, where the subscription state is now either "none" or "to" (see Appendix A). CS: <iq id='pw3f2v175b34' to='juliet@example.com/balcony' type='set'> <query xmlns='jabber:iq:roster'> <item jid='romeo@example.net' subscription='none'/> </query> </iq> CS: <iq id='zu2y3f571v35' to='juliet@example.com/chamber' type='set'> <query xmlns='jabber:iq:roster'> <item jid='romeo@example.net' subscription='none'/> </query> </iq> and that doesn’t apply for un-approved contacts because of: Security Warning: Until and unless the contact approves the subscription request as described under Section 3.1.4, the contact's server MUST NOT add an item for the user to the contact's roster. in section 3.1.3
  144. jonasw I may be overlooking something but it seems as if this isn’t broadcast.
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  146. jonasw there is nothing about broadcasting the <presence type="unsubscribed"/> to other resources
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  148. Tobias hmm..feels strange to distribute the request to all resources, but not the response
  149. jonasw could be an oversight
  150. daniel Yes this actually leads to undesired effects when I can't dismiss the notification on the other device
  151. daniel But yes I noticed that before as well
  152. Tobias wonder what could be a possible workaround for that
  153. Tobias carbons obviously does only deal with messages
  154. daniel That's probably something that should just be fixed at one point or another in the protocol
  155. Ge0rG do we have some kind of tracker for "the RFC needs to be amended in the next revision"?
  156. Ge0rG Probably PSA used to know.
  157. Tobias don't we have a wiki page for that?
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  161. Ge0rG this one? https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP_and_RFC_Remarks/RFC_6121:_XMPP-IM
  162. Ge0rG the only page with the title containing "6121"
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  166. Ge0rG Tobias or daniel: can one of you specify what's exactly going wrong and how it can be fixed, in that page?
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  195. Tobias Ge0rG, i can write the issue down on that page, yes
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  197. Ge0rG Tobias: thanks
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  302. Arc ok so lets see who shows up early or late today
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  304. Guus dst?
  305. Guus (must die!)
  306. Flow Tobias, daniel: Isn't the roster push sufficient?
  307. Tobias Flow, if you add the contact yes, but not if you reject the subscription request
  308. Tobias there's no way to tell your other resources that one has rejected it
  309. Flow ahh, the contact is not added as pending to the roster
  310. Tobias right...the usual subscription spam scenario :)
  311. Flow so someone should write a xep with a stream future subscription-rejection-broadcasts which clients can negotiate, no?
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  313. Zash presence-carbons? :)
  314. Flow or, hmm, not sure, maybe part of bind2?
  315. Flow or just wait for XMPP 2.0
  316. Zash bind2 sorta seems like XMPP 2.0
  317. Flow hmm I thought in XMPP 2.0 we would get rid of priorties
  318. Flow or is there any current use case for priorities?
  319. Zash There are probably non-IM use cases
  320. SamWhited I forgot priorities were a thing… again.
  321. Flow hmm priority based balanced round-robin fan out
  322. Flow I think I wrote a xep about that
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  327. dwd Could do a roster:2 which does all this by storing roster events in a pair of PEP nodes.
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  329. dwd (We discussed roster:2 in San José a few years back)
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  333. Arc Guus: well our board meetings are UTC, thankfully. before it was british time, which is different daylight savings than everyone else so we switched 4 times a year.
  334. Arc it should be 1700 UTC. so its an hour later today than last week, the question is out of the 5 of us who will show up an hour early expecting a meeting ;-)
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  337. Kev Arc: Well, no, British DST is the same as almost everyone else except the US ;)
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  340. dwd Kev, For another two years. Then, finally free of the shackles of the EU, we shall be able to select our own DST dates!
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  342. dwd Surely this is why we voted to take back control.
  343. Arc Kev: except 2 states in the US that don't do DST like reasonable people
  344. Arc when I run for house in Oregon, i'll introduce a bill to eliminate DST there too.
  345. dwd Arc, I didn't think it had managed to be state-wide; I thought there were states were it split along county lines.
  346. Arc except """Arizona (except for the Navajo, who do observe daylight saving time on tribal lands), Hawaii, and the overseas territories of American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, and the United States Virgin Islands."""
  347. Arc there's bills in 3 states right now to kill DST
  348. Arc its a populist position right now, nobody likes DST.
  349. Arc auspiciously it was created for farmers or industry workers, but its been shown to hurt productivity for both
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  360. dwd Arc, no, it's for golfers.
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  371. jonasw let’s make it UTC everywhere.
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  374. MattJ +1
  375. jonasw MattJ: for you it would be like simply abolishing DST, right? people here always complain when I suggest UTC.
  376. MattJ I used to keep my watch, when I wore one, in UTC year-round
  377. MattJ I did it a couple of years on my laptop, but it had too many interesting consequences
  378. MattJ so I don't bother any more
  379. jonasw hm, I had a UTC clock around me until I figured out that having irssi update the clock once per second via wifi can actually be seen on battery drainage :(
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  392. nyco hi all
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  394. jonasw hi nyco
  395. Arc hey nyco
  396. Arc nyco arrived on time!
  397. Arc MattJ: you here?
  398. Arc ralphm: ?
  399. nicolas.verite has joined
  400. ralphm I will be in 5 minutes :-D
  401. nyco always here but not really, but still...
  402. Arc holy crap we have quorum on a DST meeting
  403. Arc huzzah!
  404. Arc Martin: you here?
  405. Martin I am.
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  407. MattJ Hey
  408. ralphm Arc: well, I expected no less. Except possibly you :-D
  409. MattJ I'm going to be semi-here, I have another meeting that *was* unfortunately shifted by US DST
  410. ralphm bangs gavel
  411. ralphm set the topic to Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  412. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  413. ralphm Hi all!
  414. dwd starts the minutes.
  415. ralphm Suggestions for the Agenda?
  416. jonasw has the board to deal with PSA stepping down?
  417. ralphm I have Executive Director
  418. jonasw if so, that should probably be on the Agenda.
  419. ralphm As well as reaffirming other officers
  420. Ge0rG Depreciation of deprecated software on the website
  421. ralphm I was kinda expecting board members to respond.
  422. nyco Ge0rG, would be good, we kind of reached a rough consensus on what neutrality means, while at the Summit
  423. Martin Should we work through the "Items for discussion" on Trello? Or have we deprecated that.
  424. Arc executive director is a big one. software id like to get a vote on to move forward on it
  425. MattJ ralphm, the only thing missing afaics is sponsorship follow-up
  426. Martin Oh, wait, I'm out of sync, ignore me
  427. Arc and due to PSA's resignation we really need to discuss the other roles he held such as liasons
  428. dwd I don't *think* he had any roles left aside from ED and Treasurer.
  429. jonasw Ge0rG: +1
  430. Arc dwd: some people believe he held liason positions to IETF and ISO, at least.
  431. ralphm dwd: right
  432. Arc i'd have to look back through the minutes on those tho
  433. nyco dwd, hidden/implicit roles, like community leader in the most noble sense?
  434. ralphm We don't have a liason to IETF, we are the IETF
  435. ralphm (and other people)
  436. dwd Arc, we have no formal liaison to the IETF; never had. We do have several XSF members who are active within the IETF too, though.
  437. Arc ok.
  438. ralphm Anyway, still at Agenda
  439. Zash ( I believe the IETF to actually be a sort of ongoing event organized by the IAB or ISOC, not an organization )
  440. ralphm Thanks Zash
  441. Arc in any case i think those two are more than enough for the next 20 mins
  442. dwd Zash, It's an "activity" of the ISoC, indeed.
  443. ralphm Ok, let's go
  444. ralphm 1. XSF Officers
  445. ralphm So, our bylaws state that the Board will have an Annual Meeting to appoint officers
  446. ralphm This includes the EO, but also the Secretary and Treasurer.
  447. Arc and we haven't done that yet this year.
  448. dwd (And the Chair)
  449. ralphm dwd: sure, but I guess we did do that already
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  451. dwd ralphm, Yup. It's daft to try and do the other Officers when you pick a Chair, though.
  452. Arc ok so we put a call out for volunteers? or does someone have someone in mind? or should we seek an experienced EO from outside the community
  453. Arc outside the xmpp community i mean
  454. ralphm So, I think that Alex has to announce this Annual Meeting as per 5.5 of the bylaws
  455. ralphm And before we do that, we should indeed look for candidates
  456. nyco what's EO?
  457. Arc executive officer
  458. ralphm Executive Officer
  459. nyco thx
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  461. ralphm Bylaws call it CEO
  462. Arc since we only have one, (s)he is by default the CEO ;-)
  463. dwd (And Executive Director, in equal measure. Hmmmm)
  464. ralphm Since Peter has been EO for as long as can remember, it will be hard to fill those shoes as he filled them.
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  466. ralphm As a role, though, we should be able to find someone to take it up
  467. dwd "Unless provided otherwise by a resolution adopted by the Board of Directors, the Executive Director shall be the Chief Executive Officer of the Corporation" (§6.6) but the position is "Executive Director" normally.
  468. Arc many foundations go quite awhile without an EO, searching for the right fit
  469. dwd So "EO" is rather confusing - either ED or CEO, please - and I think you guys mean ED.
  470. ralphm I don't have a particular preference for in- or outside of the community, but having some knowledge of the technology would be good, I believe
  471. Arc dwd: CEO.
  472. ralphm dwd: thanks for that
  473. dwd Arc, I mean: These two are different positions, though the CEO is normally the ED.
  474. nyco ok, so who?... ;-)
  475. Arc If we have a CEO, we should have one with CEO experience - but who at least knows what XMPP is before we approach them. But I also don't feel strongly that we need an officer position at the moment.
  476. ralphm So let's all think hard on how we want to find a candidate
  477. Arc a bad or ineffective CEO is worse than none.
  478. jonasw ^
  479. ralphm In the meanwhile, we should ask the current Officers if they want to resume their position for another year.
  480. dwd Arc, The bylaws seem to suggest the position of ED must be filled, and that the CEO role must be filled (and by the ED by default), so...
  481. Arc dwd: lazywebbing, can the ED be the chair?
  482. Kev I note that Peter suggested he was interested in working with the Board on finding a replacement, didn't he?
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  485. Kev Perhaps including him in the discussion would not be stupid, as he has a better idea than anyone else what he's done in that role over the yeras.
  486. Kev And over the years.
  487. ralphm Indeed
  488. dwd Arc, Unclear. We have had the same person hold multiple officer positions for some time, though.
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  490. ralphm I'd be happy to take that up with Peter and see how we can start going about this.
  491. Kev I believe Peter's had a policy of not being on Board because of his ED role, FWIW.
  492. Arc +1 to ralph
  493. ralphm Well, the ED actually is another Director, and will be the deciding voice in case of a tie.
  494. ralphm (when voting on matters)
  495. Arc ralphm: that sounds like a way to proceed; discuss this with PSA about how we can start going about this
  496. ralphm Ok
  497. Arc 6 minutes remain
  498. dwd I think that when Peter started handing over the Editor role, he wrote up a job description.
  499. dwd That would seem an excellent start.
  500. ralphm Then I motion that Board thanks Peter for huge amount of work he has done as ED and inspiration he's brought to community.
  501. Arc +1
  502. Kev The peanut gallery wishes to support the motion.
  503. Martin Hear hear
  504. MattJ +1
  505. ralphm Arc: thanks for the reminder
  506. ralphm 2. Deprecation of deprecated software
  507. ralphm How do we commence this?
  508. Arc a suggestion has been made by a few members on this
  509. ralphm There's been a lot of talk already. We just need to have people doing this now.
  510. jonasw I can comment on what I did to the website.
  511. jonasw (with respect to that)
  512. Tobias get lazy folks of the iTeam review the stuff that's already in PR and have it work
  513. Arc we ask council, by the end of this year, to draft a 2018 recommended list XEP as they've done in previous years to be published early next year
  514. nyco get a rough consensus on the criteria
  515. nyco non-binary criteria, as we showed during the summit
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  517. dwd nyco, I didn't notice your vote on ralphm's motion back there - need something for the mintues.
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  520. nyco +1
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  522. dwd nyco, Ta!
  523. nyco that was implicit
  524. nyco sorry ;-)
  525. Arc and that for now, this year, we simply send out an announcement to the project maintainers for software currently on the website to apply, and include that in the Q2 or Q3 vote
  526. Tobias jonasw, will do a full review of your PR this evening and will try getting it working on the website
  527. nyco and we should offer him a teddy bear
  528. jonasw Tobias: that’d be great. that would at least give us semi-automatic expiry.
  529. dwd nyco, Bruno?
  530. nyco why not ;-)
  531. Ge0rG Arc: can we please send out an announcement right now and remove everything that does not reapply in a month?
  532. Arc or, until we have a more formal process, informally ask the project maintainers to put in a PR like someone suggested, and that be that.
  533. Arc Ge0rG: that's what I would like to do, yes.
  534. Kev I think the idea of just requiring a maintainer to 'ping' to keep their project listed each year is pragmatic and non-contentious.
  535. Ge0rG Arc: that's completely orthogonal to compliance suite 2017 / 2018
  536. Kev And, crucially, solves the problem at hand without boiling the ocean.
  537. MattJ +1
  538. ralphm Ok
  539. Ge0rG I volunteer to send the mail
  540. Arc maybe create a branch on the website github for the projects, remove all software from that branch, and ask that the post a PR against that branch, merging it in next month.
  541. Tobias Ge0rG, i suggest doing that as soon as we know that the implementation works and is deployed on the website
  542. jonasw Tobias: from what I can tell, it is already merged to master.
  543. jonasw https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/tree/master/data this at least looks like a lot like what I put in my PR.
  544. Tobias jonasw, right...but last i heard it wasn't deployed on the live website :)
  545. Tobias will figure that out today
  546. ralphm So does Kev's suggestion require that we contact all projects individually, or is a notice on jdev and standards sufficient?
  547. Arc is this a motion we want to vote on?
  548. nyco we can keep all mentionend software as a hall of History... or good services in the past centuries... so another page?
  549. Kev ralphm: I'd say that a post on jdev/standards/members, plus a note on the page about how it's generated would be more than sufficient.
  550. jonasw nyco: I would not make it easily discoverable. Users have a talent to find the information they’re not supposed to find for their own good.
  551. Ge0rG ralphm: jdev and the blog, I'd suggest
  552. jonasw Ge0rG: +standards
  553. ralphm I like Kev's idea. Who else?
  554. nyco jonasw, well yeah ok ;-)
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  556. jonasw (I do, but I don’t have a vote in this meeting :-))
  557. Arc I think thats a fine idea.
  558. Arc +1
  559. Kev I wouldn't mind an AOB on website ownership, at the end (it's quick, I just want to raise a point for future discussion)
  560. nyco +1
  561. Martin +1
  562. ralphm Ok, I see Ge0rG has suggested to draft a message
  563. ralphm Can you send that draft to board@?
  564. Ge0rG ralphm: wilco
  565. ralphm Thanks
  566. ralphm 3. EOB
  567. ralphm 3. AOB
  568. SamWhited ralphm: Can you create me an "Editor Team" trello under the XSF team?
  569. ralphm Kev quickly
  570. ralphm SamWhited: I'll see what I can do
  571. SamWhited (sort of board AOB, sort of personal; we can chat after)
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  573. Kev ralphm: And I'd like to have (iteam hat on) some admin over the org please.
  574. Kev Right, website ownership.
  575. Kev I'd like to note that the website currently has no clear owner - once upon a time there was a working, although not perfect, website.
  576. Kev Then there was a Board-led initiative to replace it, which happened, and Board ultimately instructed iteam to deploy it before iteam were comfortable with this.
  577. ralphm I'd be happy to say that iteam "owns" the website
  578. Tobias i thought content wise the XSF owns the site
  579. Tobias *copyright wise
  580. ralphm Tobias: of course
  581. dwd "owns" in what sense? Software, content?
  582. dwd Or "has final say"?
  583. nyco the latter?
  584. ralphm I think the board is about content, iteam about the mechanics
  585. Kev Now, iteam clearly don't own (responsibility for) the content on the website, as that's unrelated to infrastructure, so I think this means it defaults to Board. But at the same time, when there's stuff submitted to the site that actually runs on the server, iteam should have some say, but ... there's a mess here at the moment, brought to light by Tobi saying iteam were being lazy for not fixing stuff that wasn't theirs in the first place.
  586. ralphm Kev: indeed
  587. dwd As an aside, it's a bit of a mystery why the website generation needs to run on the webserver. But still, this might be my ignorance at play.
  588. Kev So 1) I'd like a bit more explicit statement of who is responsible for reviewing and merging content changes to the website. 2) I'd like this to include iteam review where it means running stuff on the server.
  589. ralphm I think it is fine for iteam to assume control over how the website works, is generated, etc.
  590. Kev dwd: It shouldn't. This is just an artefact of what's been somewhat thrust upon us :)
  591. jonasw FWIW, this can be enforced with github I think
  592. Tobias dwd, it doesn't have to, it can also run in your dockerized blockchain or your blockerized docker
  593. dwd Tobias, So some PRs etc to do this would alleviate Kev's problems entirely?
  594. jonasw it’s not that simple.
  595. Tobias the website consists of many parts, the pelican web content, XEPs, registries, etc.
  596. Tobias and soon also the auto generated client software lists
  597. Kev I wasn't looking for answers now, I just wanted to bring it to people's attention for future discussion.
  598. ralphm Ok. I thought this was an easy topic. But I see we need some more thinking on this.
  599. dwd Kev, I think there seem to be two issues:
  600. Arc we are T-11 minutes. shall we table and put this on the agenda for next week?
  601. Kev dwd: At least.
  602. dwd Kev, 1) iteam need to have ownership of code running on the servers.
  603. ralphm Arc: yeah, that was my feeling, too
  604. dwd Kev, 2) The website should minimize the amount of code running on the servers.
  605. ralphm Let's continue this discussion after formal close
  606. Kev Arc: I have no need for further discussion right now.
  607. Arc Kev: this is important tho, thanks for bringing it to the table
  608. ralphm 4 Date of Next
  609. Arc +1W
  610. ralphm 5. Close
  611. ralphm Thanks all!
  612. jonasw Kev: FWIW, I built a setup for another organisation where content and pelican-stuff for generation was separate.
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  615. jonasw that would allow to place strict requirements on merges to the generation code and less-strict requirements to merges on the content
  616. jonasw taking some load off iteam with reviewing stuff
  617. Tobias jonasw, i'll get back to you later today to ask some questions about that then
  618. bear running the website generation code on the server was a default thing - the default was that it was already doing it
  619. Kev jonasw: Yes, that would be the perfect situation.
  620. bear having it run as part of the build process is easy to implement
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  623. Kev And a wild bear appears.
  624. Tobias bear, btw: some people in the XSF asked if they could get access to the twitter credentials
  625. Tobias i think Kev asked that once
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  628. dwd jonasw, bear - I think moving the generation off the webserver would alleviate muhc of Kev's concerns, and just seems the Right Thing to do anyway.
  629. Kev bear: Yes, I'd like (iteam hat) to have the credentials, please.
  630. bear I can add folks to the twitter group user thingy if they get me a list of IDs and the board nods at me
  631. jonasw dwd: where would you put the generation then?
  632. ralphm bangs gavel
  633. Kev (As opposed to tweetdeck access to actually tweet stuff)
  634. jonasw Kev, Tobias, it’s those two + a non-published build.py web-hook thing which I can also pastebin you somewhere. https://github.com/fsfw-dresden/homepage-2.0-build https://github.com/fsfw-dresden/homepage-2.0-content
  635. dwd jonasw, A docker image? Travis?
  636. ralphm Wow latency
  637. jonasw dwd: I wouldn’t like to have travis build my website, but that’s a matter of taste.
  638. bear the build would be done on circleci as part of the deploy step
  639. dwd jonasw, I'm demanding solutions, not offering them. ;-)
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  641. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
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  643. dwd gass at the subject change.
  644. dwd "gasps", even. Harrumph.
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  647. bear Kev let me get you the credentials to twitter
  648. Kev bear: Thanks muchly. RO in my homedir on perseus or similar seems sensible. Although XMPP between private servers works just as well.
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  651. Tobias also, did the recent months of increased twittering helped with our number of followers?
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  657. jonasw Kev, Tobias: re the repositories, one should note that the Makefile is not the default pelican makefile, we made some adjustments to make it work with a non-default "content" directory (so that we could build multiple branches without having to mess with the content submodule)
  658. Tobias jonasw, one step at a time :) on feel free to create a list of issues :)
  659. jonasw I can drop an issue with random notes on the subject, sure
  660. ralphm dwd: why?
  661. dwd ralphm, Why what?
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  663. ralphm Why gasp
  664. dwd ralphm, I didn't notice you'd changed it beforehand. Is this purely to disprove my assertion that nobody remembers to change the subject?
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  667. ralphm I've been doing that since the Summit yes
  668. jonasw Tobias, Kev, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/277
  669. Kev Thanks.
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  671. bear i'll look at that issue tonight and see if I can get all of the build stuff out of the server and onto the lovely circleci free services
  672. jonasw if you want to run that in some CI third-party service you probably don’t have to bother with that.
  673. jonasw (with that what I describe in the issue, I mean)
  674. bear i'll read the issue and try to implement the suggestions if they make sense
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  746. Ge0rG Yay! Another vulnerability in WhatsApp. Looks like it could have happened with XHTML-IM as well. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13876087
  747. Tobias yeah..they should have used RTF
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  761. MattJ Tobias, https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2012/05/09/what-the-rtf-mac-and-windows-users-at-risk-from-boobytrapped-documents/
  762. Tobias they sure must have fixed all vulnerabilities by now :D
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