Monday, March 20, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:00:56] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[00:02:53] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[00:02:55] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[00:05:15] *** devnull shows as "chat" and his status message is ""I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can't any longer these days see into myself. I see only murk. Murk outside; murk inside. I hope, for everyone's sake, the scanners do better.""
[00:05:54] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[00:19:59] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[00:19:59] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[00:20:27] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[00:24:10] *** suzyo has left the room
[00:26:17] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[00:26:21] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[00:26:26] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[00:26:27] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[00:32:02] *** Guus has left the room
[00:32:20] *** nicolas.verite has joined the room
[00:35:09] *** Guus shows as "online"
[00:38:38] *** waqas has left the room
[00:38:39] *** waqas has joined the room
[00:42:02] *** Zash shows as "away" and his status message is "📥0!"
[00:51:32] *** Zash shows as "online" and his status message is "📥0!"
[00:51:49] *** nicolas.verite has left the room
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[01:01:06] *** arc has left the room
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[01:03:40] *** Zash shows as "away" and his status message is "📥0!"
[01:04:40] *** nicolas.verite has left the room
[01:20:36] *** kaboom has left the room
[01:23:07] *** Zash shows as "online" and his status message is "📥0!"
[01:27:15] *** bra shows as "online"
[01:27:56] *** Guus has left the room
[01:28:48] *** waqas has left the room
[01:29:02] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:30:58] *** waqas has joined the room
[01:37:19] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[01:39:08] *** Zash shows as "away" and his status message is "📥0!"
[01:41:25] *** Zash has left the room
[01:56:34] *** waqas has left the room
[01:56:37] *** waqas has joined the room
[01:57:03] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[01:57:05] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[01:57:19] *** bra shows as "xa" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[01:58:56] *** Zash shows as "online" and his status message is "📥0!"
[02:17:25] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[02:17:25] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[02:23:11] *** bra shows as "online"
[02:28:03] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[02:28:03] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[02:41:17] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[02:41:18] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[02:46:47] *** waqas has left the room
[02:46:47] *** waqas has joined the room
[02:47:19] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[02:47:19] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[02:52:03] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[02:52:17] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[02:59:31] *** sonny has left the room
[03:00:11] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[03:01:18] *** bra shows as "online"
[03:11:21] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[03:15:41] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[03:19:08] *** nicolas.verite has joined the room
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[03:25:52] *** nicolas.verite has left the room
[03:26:22] *** jere has left the room
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[03:31:21] *** bra shows as "xa" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[03:37:13] *** bra shows as "online"
[03:44:16] *** sonny has left the room
[03:54:05] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[03:55:11] *** sonny has joined the room
[03:56:44] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[04:05:24] *** sonny has left the room
[04:14:05] *** bra shows as "xa" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[04:14:22] *** sonny has joined the room
[04:15:00] *** bra shows as "online"
[04:20:13] *** sonny has left the room
[04:24:01] *** devnull shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[04:25:03] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[04:26:25] *** sonny has joined the room
[04:30:00] *** devnull shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[04:32:17] *** devnull shows as "chat" and his status message is ""I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can't any longer these days see into myself. I see only murk. Murk outside; murk inside. I hope, for everyone's sake, the scanners do better.""
[04:34:39] *** nicolas.verite has joined the room
[04:37:54] *** bra shows as "online"
[04:38:22] *** devnull shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[04:44:22] *** devnull shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[04:44:27] *** nicolas.verite has left the room
[04:49:26] *** vurpo has left the room
[04:49:30] *** vurpo has joined the room
[04:49:41] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[04:50:03] *** nicolas.verite has joined the room
[04:50:59] *** sonny has joined the room
[04:58:39] *** bra shows as "online"
[05:02:13] *** Guus has left the room
[05:02:14] *** Guus shows as "online"
[05:03:22] *** devnull shows as "chat" and his status message is ""I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can't any longer these days see into myself. I see only murk. Murk outside; murk inside. I hope, for everyone's sake, the scanners do better.""
[05:06:19] *** nicolas.verite has left the room
[05:08:30] *** sonny has joined the room
[05:14:58] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[05:16:33] *** Guus has left the room
[05:17:13] *** Guus shows as "online"
[05:20:49] *** devnull shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[05:21:10] *** nicolas.verite has joined the room
[05:22:08] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:25:15] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:25:18] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:26:49] *** devnull shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[05:28:46] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:29:58] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:30:33] *** nicolas.verite has left the room
[05:32:07] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:33:47] *** Zash shows as "away" and his status message is "📥0!"
[05:34:58] *** bra shows as "xa" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[05:35:58] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[05:35:59] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[05:36:37] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:37:22] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:40:48] *** suzyo has joined the room
[05:40:53] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:41:01] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:41:52] *** devnull shows as "chat" and his status message is ""I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can't any longer these days see into myself. I see only murk. Murk outside; murk inside. I hope, for everyone's sake, the scanners do better.""
[05:46:09] *** waqas has left the room
[05:47:27] *** bra shows as "online"
[05:53:34] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:53:56] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:57:19] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:57:24] *** Zash shows as "online" and his status message is "📥0!"
[05:57:28] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:01:09] *** devnull shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[06:02:08] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:03:14] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:04:14] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:04:55] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:06:18] *** Guus has left the room
[06:06:57] *** Guus shows as "online"
[06:07:09] *** devnull shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[06:11:15] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:11:39] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:12:50] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[06:15:17] *** SamWhited has left the room
[06:16:11] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:17:58] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:18:04] *** devnull shows as "chat" and his status message is ""I hope it does, he thought, see clearly, because I can't any longer these days see into myself. I see only murk. Murk outside; murk inside. I hope, for everyone's sake, the scanners do better.""
[06:18:24] *** nyco shows as "online"
[06:18:34] *** nicolas.verite has joined the room
[06:21:17] *** daniel has left the room
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[06:22:24] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[06:22:28] *** ralphm has left the room
[06:27:28] *** daniel has left the room
[06:29:02] *** devnull shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[06:32:50] *** bra shows as "xa" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[06:35:02] *** devnull shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[06:35:19] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:35:20] *** intosi shows as "online"
[06:35:34] *** nicolas.verite has left the room
[06:35:56] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:35:56] *** efrit has joined the room
[06:36:47] *** winfried shows as "online" and his status message is "I'am on the move, blame the LTE if I don't react"
[06:37:11] *** Guus has left the room
[06:37:43] *** Guus shows as "online"
[06:39:57] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:40:11] *** suzyo has left the room
[06:41:13] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[06:41:25] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:41:39] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:42:00] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:42:13] *** daniel has joined the room
[06:43:55] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:44:31] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:45:57] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:48:17] *** nicolas.verite has joined the room
[06:51:30] *** bra shows as "online"
[06:51:33] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssttt... my computer fell asleep"
[06:51:44] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:52:23] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[06:52:45] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:54:33] *** daniel has left the room
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[07:01:20] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[07:02:12] *** blabla has joined the room
[07:02:40] *** moparisthebest has left the room
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[07:03:46] *** pep. shows as "online"
[07:04:36] *** tim@boese-ban.de has joined the room
[07:07:47] *** nyco has left the room
[07:12:03] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[07:12:51] *** nyco shows as "online"
[07:12:59] *** nicolas.verite has joined the room
[07:14:11] *** winfried shows as "online" and his status message is "I'am on the move, blame the LTE if I don't react"
[07:17:42] *** Zash shows as "online"
[07:17:58] *** nicolas.verite has left the room
[07:18:03] *** nyco shows as "online"
[07:18:27] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[07:19:11] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[07:22:49] *** nicolas.verite has joined the room
[07:23:33] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[07:23:37] *** Zash shows as "away" and his status message is "📥0!"
[07:24:09] *** bra shows as "online"
[07:29:10] *** kalkin has left the room
[07:32:42] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:32:50] *** nyco shows as "online"
[07:33:24] *** winfried has left the room
[07:38:31] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[07:40:41] *** Tobias has left the room
[07:40:51] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:40:58] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:41:47] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:44:03] *** kalkin has joined the room
[07:51:19] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:52:44] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[07:53:47] *** bra shows as "online"
[07:55:04] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[07:56:26] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[07:56:44] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:57:48] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[07:58:40] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:01:54] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:02:51] *** nyco shows as "online"
[08:02:57] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[08:03:17] *** Zash has left the room
[08:03:45] *** Zash shows as "online" and his status message is "📥0!"
[08:05:48] *** bjc shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[08:09:30] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[08:09:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:10:35] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[08:16:08] *** nyco has left the room
[08:16:13] *** bra shows as "online"
[08:16:48] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[08:19:52] *** vurpo has left the room
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[08:22:11] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:22:54] *** nyco shows as "online"
[08:23:23] *** Guus has left the room
[08:23:44] *** Valerian has joined the room
[08:23:56] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[08:25:00] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:25:36] *** winfried shows as "online"
[08:26:08] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:28:27] *** goffi has joined the room
[08:28:48] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[08:28:49] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[08:28:51] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[08:28:51] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[08:31:05] *** ralphm has left the room
[08:32:17] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:32:53] *** nyco shows as "online"
[08:33:02] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:33:03] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:33:25] *** Kev shows as "online"
[08:34:02] *** jubalh has joined the room
[08:35:52] *** Guus shows as "online"
[08:36:08] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:36:14] *** ilmaisin shows as "online"
[08:40:11] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[08:43:54] *** jubalh has left the room
[08:44:06] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[08:45:45] *** goffi has left the room
[08:47:00] *** goffi has joined the room
[08:47:18] *** pep. has left the room
[08:48:54] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[08:49:16] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:49:48] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[08:50:15] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[08:50:16] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:50:20] *** winfried shows as "online" and his status message is "I'am on the move, blame the LTE if I don't react"
[08:50:28] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:51:03] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[08:51:40] *** jonasw shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[08:51:40] *** jonasw shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[08:51:52] *** jonasw shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[08:51:52] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[08:52:23] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[08:52:35] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[08:52:36] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[08:53:33] *** vurpo has left the room
[08:53:36] *** vurpo has joined the room
[08:53:55] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:54:37] *** Martin has joined the room
[08:57:11] *** nicolas.verite has left the room
[08:57:12] *** kalkin has left the room
[08:57:51] *** nyco shows as "online"
[08:58:51] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:00:11] *** bra shows as "xa" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[09:02:23] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[09:03:14] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[09:03:22] *** mhterres has joined the room
[09:03:49] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:04:53] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssttt... my computer fell asleep"
[09:05:00] *** winfried shows as "online" and his status message is "I'am on the move, blame the LTE if I don't react"
[09:06:23] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[09:06:40] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[09:07:21] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[09:07:24] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[09:08:25] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[09:11:49] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[09:11:52] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[09:11:56] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[09:13:01] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[09:14:45] *** kalkin has joined the room
[09:15:39] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[09:17:51] *** nyco shows as "online"
[09:18:00] *** nicolas.verite has joined the room
[09:18:07] *** nicolas.verite has left the room
[09:23:21] *** nyco has left the room
[09:23:24] *** Zash shows as "online"
[09:27:52] *** nicolas.verite has joined the room
[09:27:54] *** nyco shows as "online"
[09:27:57] *** nicolas.verite has left the room
[09:28:25] *** Zash shows as "online"
[09:28:46] *** dwd shows as "online"
[09:31:44] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[09:31:53] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[09:31:58] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[09:36:06] *** Zash shows as "away"
[09:36:40] *** Alex has joined the room
[09:36:47] *** Alex shows as "online"
[09:37:17] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:38:25] *** bra shows as "online"
[09:38:30] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:38:56] *** dwd shows as "online"
[09:41:22] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[09:45:48] *** nyco has left the room
[09:46:40] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[09:47:23] *** winfried shows as "away"
[09:47:31] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:47:36] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[09:47:50] *** nyco shows as "online"
[09:48:26] *** blipp has left the room
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[09:49:24] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[09:49:57] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:52:02] *** jubalh has joined the room
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[09:55:38] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:55:42] *** Martin shows as "online"
[09:57:01] *** blipp has joined the room
[09:57:25] *** ilmaisin shows as "away"
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[12:11:26] <jonasw> I’m not an XML Schema guru, but we’re currently looking at the schema for XEP-0084. It appears to me that it doesn’t allow any attributes for <pointer/>, but in the text it is specified that pointer MAY have some attributes (those already specified for <info/>).
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[13:12:49] <dwd> jonasw, Our schemas are often rubbish, yes. In the case of the <pointer/>, I take it you're interested in implementing this? I don't *think* anyone else has.
[13:13:04] <jonasw> not really
[13:13:12] <jonasw> just a stub
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[13:14:41] <jonasw> well, we’re implementing XEP-84, but not <pointer/>, to make it clear
[13:14:53] <dwd> I'd be inclined to strip <pointer/>, even if it's Draft, to be honest. I can't see how it's interoperable.
[13:15:24] <jonasw> I find it a bit annoying that one can only save image/png in PEP there
[13:15:50] <jonasw> I understand and welcome that image/png is required, but from my reading the XEP explicitly forbids anything but image/png in the :data node :(
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[13:16:29] <Zash> Only when only one node is supported, like how some popular implementation(s?) do it.
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[13:17:52] <jonasw> what do you mean?
[13:17:54] <dwd> Zash, No, I think the text as written restricts the <data/> element to be image/png only.
[13:17:59] <Zash> What
[13:18:04] <jonasw> yes
[13:18:09] <Zash> Where?
[13:18:21] <dwd> Zash, §4.1
[13:18:26] <Zash> -xep 84
[13:18:26] <jonasw> > The XML character data MUST represent the image data for the avatar with a content-type of "image/png", Base64-encoded in accordance with Section 4 of RFC 4648 [10]. (Note: Line feeds SHOULD NOT be added but MUST be accepted.)
[13:18:28] <Bunneh> Zash: XEP-0084: User Avatar (Standards Track, Draft, 2016-07-09)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0084.html
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[13:19:09] <Zash> Is that new?
[13:19:24] <jonasw> hopefully not. this is a MUST and the XEP has been in draft since 2008 or something :)
[13:19:30] <jonasw> 2007 even
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[13:21:41] <dwd> Changed in 2007, just before Last Call.
[13:21:58] <dwd> Version 0.12. Or at least, that's when the line was edited.
[13:22:48] <Zash> I thought that it said "If only one item is published, it has to be PNG. Other items can be whatever."
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[13:23:24] <dwd> Oh, mind you, "The XML character data MUST represent the image data for the avatar with a content-type of "image/png"", edited in 2007-02-23, which doesn't appear in the version history.
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[13:23:45] <Zash> But since in practice you are going to have a hard time publishing multiple items...
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[13:28:55] <Zash> The png-only text shows up in https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/jep-0084-0.7.html#proto
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[13:30:21] <jonasw> wait, if PEP won’t allow more than one item the XEP has a data race
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[13:34:21] <Zash> Wasn't there a feature for that?
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[14:05:57] <jonasw> dwd: let’s keep <pointer/>
[14:06:04] <jonasw> it may be useful if we ever want to extend XEP-84.
[14:06:09] <jonasw> saves a replacement.
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[14:27:19] <Tobias> fippo, what's google meet? their new duo?
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[14:32:09] <Zash> Yet another Google messenger?
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[14:32:51] <Tobias> https://meet.google.com/
[14:33:11] <Tobias> maybe a gotomeeting like thing from google?
[14:33:55] <Tobias> https://techcrunch.com/2017/02/28/google-quietly-launches-meet-an-enterprise-friendly-version-of-hangouts/
[14:36:06] <nyco> yes, more or less
[14:36:17] <nyco> whereas the other is more like a Slack/HipChat
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[14:36:36] <Tobias> they got an alternative to Slack/hipchat?
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[14:37:31] <Ge0rG> Hey, while we are talking about Slack. If you slack a message to yourself, it's just stored on the server and reflected to your other devices. In XMPP (with Carbons), every one of your devices has two copies in the end
[14:37:57] <Ge0rG> Would it be sensible to change Core routing / Carbons to only deliver the message to your _other_ clients?
[14:38:08] <Ge0rG> or is this something that should be handled in the client?
[14:38:10] <nyco> Ge0rG, marginal case, as I guess? or is there real use?
[14:38:23] <Tobias> Ge0rG, MAM should be the source of truth, not?
[14:38:50] <Ge0rG> nyco: I'm messaging myself all the time (URLs to my mobile etc), and I'm using a secondary JID because duplicates look bad
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[14:39:06] <Ge0rG> Tobias: MAM will obviously also contain two copies
[14:39:12] <Ge0rG> Tobias: the incoming and the outgoing one
[14:39:29] <Tobias> Ge0rG, yeah?
[14:39:29] <nyco> so why not store those things in a private pubsub node?
[14:40:29] <Tobias> Ge0rG, maybe there could be a mention of it in MAM to allow server to optionally remove that one duplicate
[14:40:34] <Ge0rG> nyco: because every client supports messaging, and no clients support private pubsub nodes.
[14:41:11] <Ge0rG> Tobias: that's not so easy.
[14:41:25] <Ge0rG> Tobias: MAM is only if you come online later on. Carbons / core 6121 is when you are online
[14:41:35] <Ge0rG> Which is one of the reasons I'm insisting on making MAM-subscribe a thing.
[14:41:39] <intosi> Ge0rG: that's what M-Link does. Messages to self are archived just once.
[14:41:53] <intosi> And, as a result, returned just once.
[14:41:59] <Ge0rG> intosi: are carbons of messages-to-self also inhibited?
[14:42:08] <intosi> Carbons are not archived.
[14:42:42] <Ge0rG> intosi: if I'm online with /A and /B, and I send a message from /A to bare-JID (or even to /A), which client will receive how many copies again?
[14:42:44] <intosi> And messages to self follow the normal carbons rules. Only interested clients that aren't snders or recipients already will receive them,
[14:43:09] <Ge0rG> intosi: because a message-to-self is two messages in most cases :>
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[14:44:00] <Ge0rG> and from my reading of 6121+Carbons, you can't strip out one of them without violating the protocol
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[14:46:14] <intosi> I'll probably regret asking immediately, but why?
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[14:47:24] <Ge0rG> intosi: an incoming message must be delivered to a subset of the available resources by 6121, and to all other resources that have carbons by 0280
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[14:47:47] <Ge0rG> intosi: and an outgoing message must be carboned to all other carbon-enabled resources
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[14:48:08] <intosi> Yeah, sure. And you're claiming a server must do both sent and received handling separate?
[14:48:13] <Ge0rG> from a technical PoV, a message to self is first an outgoing message from your sending client, and then an incoming message to wherever it was addressed
[14:48:29] <intosi> I chose not to do that, it's stupid.
[14:48:54] <Ge0rG> intosi: actually I'll gladly accept a different reading of the RFC, but it seems like you were the only one to do the "right" thing, and I'd be surprised if it's backed by the RFC
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[14:48:59] <fippo> tobias: video hangouts with a new interface. watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a-mmT9ifss if you're interested
[14:49:52] <Tobias> fippo, ta
[14:50:19] <intosi> It followed from my reading of 280, interpreting it as a hint on which resources should receive the message. It makes no sense at all to handle the sent and received carbons separately when from and to are the same account.
[14:50:47] <intosi> On which resources, apart from normal RFC routing, I mean.
[14:51:00] <Ge0rG> intosi: you are right of course. But even normal RFC routing is convoluted in this case.
[14:51:06] <intosi> Didn't touch RFC routing rules at all.
[14:51:51] <Ge0rG> intosi: if you don't touch RFC routing, you'll end up in an even weirder place. Imagine that RFC routing rules require you to send the message back to the sending client.
[14:52:04] <Ge0rG> Then the sending client will end up with two copied, and every other client with only 1.
[14:52:29] <intosi> Ge0rG: perhaps in your code base.
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[14:53:56] <Ge0rG> intosi: no, RFC 6121 is very clear on this. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6121#section-8.5.2 and https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6121#section-8.5.3
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[14:55:00] <Ge0rG> there is no "you can ignore the sending JID of self-messages" exception
[14:55:09] <Ge0rG> I wish there were.
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[14:55:47] <intosi> I'm probably too stupid to understand what your problem is.
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[14:56:18] <Flow> Ge0rG: So you are saying we can't add a sentence to 280 that carbons of self-messages should not be send to the sending resource?
[14:56:31] <Ge0rG> intosi: I want to ask my favorite server's developers to reduce the number of self-messages from 2 to 1, but RFC6121 disallows that.
[14:56:59] <Ge0rG> Flow: no. I'm saying that, carbons-aside, you'll end up with partial message duplication based on 6121.
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[14:57:18] <Ge0rG> Flow: this can't be fixed in carbons only. And if we try, we'll end up with {1..2} messages arriving at different clients
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[14:59:44] <Flow> Hmm, I think I don't have the whole picture of the problem. Maybe post to standards@?
[14:59:54] <Ge0rG> But then again, I also think that 6121 bare-JID routing rules are fundamentally broken for the IM use case.
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[15:24:05] <Ge0rG> Flow, lovetox, intosi: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-March/032421.html
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[15:29:18] <intosi> Ah, now I understand you. Yes, foo/A sending to foo will result in a copy to self.
[15:29:29] <intosi> See, I'm too stupid to understand your words.
[15:30:08] <Ge0rG> intosi: I'm too stupid to find the right words to make the problem accessible
[15:30:10] <intosi> What will not happen, is sent carbons to be generated, even if you send to a bound JID foo/B.
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[15:30:52] <Ge0rG> intosi: feel free to comment that you won't violate 6121, and that my claim of such is a blatant lie
[15:31:02] <intosi> Like I said, I didn't touch core routing rules for carbons. Not delivering the message to self when insisting on an unbound bare self jid would violate the RFC.
[15:31:23] <intosi> Anyway, sensible clients bind to a full jid as soon as they can anyway.
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[15:31:58] <Ge0rG> intosi: resource-binding only adds to the uncertainity
[15:32:16] <Ge0rG> sensible clients should always send to bareJID because the server knows better which resources are there.
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[15:32:28] <Ge0rG> the only exception is OTR, which is considered generally broken.
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[15:33:26] <intosi> I disagree, except for the OTR bit.
[15:33:48] <dwd> Ge0rG, "always"?
[15:33:58] <Ge0rG> dwd: yeah.
[15:34:04] <dwd> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0296.html
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[15:35:33] <Ge0rG> dwd: following that XEP leads right into madness land.
[15:35:38] <Holger> It would be so nice if that idea worked out in practice ...
[15:36:19] <Ge0rG> dwd: just consider the race conditions between sending a message to a locked JID and that locked JID disappearing.
[15:37:05] <Ge0rG> Things are getting even funnier if you change client behavior based on the locked JID's supported features.
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[15:37:37] <Ge0rG> You start typing a LMC correction, but then another client of your buddy comes online, you get unlocked and your client refuses to LMC.
[15:37:55] <Ge0rG> ..or doesn't ask for a 0184 ack.
[15:38:31] <Ge0rG> And I don't even want to get started about different message routing rules, which cause a "real" message vs. a carbon to arrive at your destination.
[15:39:00] <dwd> You seem to have got started on the thing you claim you don't want to get started on.
[15:39:38] <Ge0rG> Seriously, we need to reconsider all that and just say that unless explicitly required, all messages should go to bare-JID, because we want to talk to the "account" and not to the "client".
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[15:40:15] <Ge0rG> dwd: no, I didn't. Carbons are a whole different can of worms.
[15:40:21] <Flow> Ge0rG: I believe any sensible client does already that
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[15:40:36] <Ge0rG> Flow: does what?
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[15:40:52] <Ge0rG> Flow: intosi> Anyway, sensible clients bind to a full jid as soon as they can anyway.
[15:41:55] <Flow> Ge0rG: But with carbons on both ends, where is the issue when performing resource locking?
[15:42:14] <Ge0rG> Flow: see above.
[15:42:41] <Ge0rG> Flow: also, if the receiving client goes offline, even with carbons, the server will generate error responses for the queued messages
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[15:44:08] <Flow> fair point, but you don't have to convince me. If I where to write an XMPP IM client I would probably always send messages to bare JIDs
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[15:45:00] *Ge0rG is an ignorant developer as well. Just doesn't care about CAPS and sends whatever features he wants to the bare JID
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[15:47:49] <Ge0rG> because most of the features supported by yaxim fail safe, and because it doesn't support many features, it works out excellently.
[15:49:46] <Flow> CAPS?
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[15:50:44] <Ge0rG> Flow: 0030/0115
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[17:03:05] <lovetox> so is there any use case for https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0201.html except the ones described in the xep, because i dont really feel i dont need the ones described in the xep
[17:04:31] <jonasw> lovetox: actually, those use cases are awesome. the problem is only that noone has ever found a good UI for them.
[17:05:39] <lovetox> they feel like "look what we could do if somebody would find some use case for this"
[17:05:43] <Ge0rG> I'd love to be able to collapse threads I'm not interested in. But that would require XMPP clients to actively mark messages with the correct thread-id
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[17:06:08] <jonasw> +1 Ge0rG
[17:06:16] <jonasw> haven’t had a good idea yet, unfortunately
[17:06:30] <Ge0rG> I'm actually thinking about adding a thread-ID in yaxim when you tap on a nickname to do nickname completion
[17:06:45] <jonasw> not sure that’d perform well
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[17:07:18] <Ge0rG> jonasw: it would probably cause gazillions of false-positives, but then again: no sane client relies on thread-ids to mean anything :P
[17:07:40] <lovetox> you mean in a muc
[17:07:47] <Ge0rG> lovetox: yeah
[17:07:53] <lovetox> so that you tap a button and start a new thread
[17:08:03] <lovetox> and how does the other client respond to the thread?
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[17:08:17] <jonasw> with tapping I can actually imagine that this would work
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[17:08:20] <Ge0rG> lovetox: no. you tap on a message to continue that thread
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[17:08:24] <jonasw> I cannot imagine how that works in a desktop application
[17:08:30] <jonasw> as soon as you have multiple threads with overlapping participants :(
[17:08:37] <Ge0rG> jonasw: also tab completion :P
[17:08:48] <jonasw> Ge0rG: see above
[17:09:04] <jonasw> with yaxim you could use the thread of the message which the user tapped at for completion
[17:09:07] <lovetox> and then reorder messages so messages from threads are grouped?
[17:09:14] <jonasw> maybe
[17:09:24] <Ge0rG> maybe one could add colors to message threads
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[17:09:32] <Ge0rG> as a subtle hint
[17:09:40] <jonasw> like this? https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Contact_Colors
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[17:09:41] <Ge0rG> anyway, I gotta run.
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[17:10:08] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yeah, nickname --> text color; thread --> bg color
[17:10:19] <Ge0rG> severe eye injury!
[17:10:29] <jonasw> ouch
[17:10:52] <lovetox> so for muc i feel this is not too hard to implement
[17:10:58] <lovetox> its just the ui how you respnd
[17:11:02] <lovetox> or switch thread
[17:11:03] <jonasw> yes, the UI is hard
[17:11:07] <jonasw> exactly
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[17:11:18] <jonasw> unfortunately; because I think it could add a lot of it worked magically
[17:11:49] <Ge0rG> that would intuitively work for pseudo-forums, but not for IM
[17:11:52] <jonasw> wtf
[17:11:55] <lovetox> there needs to be a feature, that lets me add a name to the thread
[17:11:56] <jonasw> the wiki dropped my non-latin1-characters
[17:12:00] <jonasw> what the heck
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[17:12:07] <lovetox> so then someone could hit a key and cycle the thread names
[17:12:14] <lovetox> and write to the one he wants
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[17:12:51] <Ge0rG> lovetox: why names? just use <Tab> to color-highlight the threads one by one.
[17:12:51] <lovetox> can we just add a name tag to the thread element
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[17:13:19] <Ge0rG> Or maybe... Meta-Tab, because Tab is already used for nick completion :P
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[17:13:45] <lovetox> on desktop i have endless possibilities with shortcuts i dont see a problem with that
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[17:14:09] <Ge0rG> lovetox: yes, but your users don't have infinite memory for shortcuts
[17:14:12] <jonasw> right
[17:14:13] <lovetox> so the client automatically gives a color to a new thread
[17:14:14] <jonasw> this is IM, not blender
[17:14:35] <lovetox> this can get tricky in a muc with much threads
[17:14:40] <lovetox> names are better i think
[17:14:58] <jonasw> names requires extra user interaction
[17:15:02] <jonasw> -> won’t be used
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[17:15:24] <Ge0rG> lovetox: MS Teams has multiple input boxes per thread level. The one in the bottom starts new threads, and then there is a box in each thread at each level, to allow answering there
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[17:16:14] <jonasw> hm, interesting approach, too
[17:16:15] <lovetox> but to be honest, on a smartphone, a muc is cramped already
[17:16:28] <lovetox> on desktop this could be a really nice feature
[17:16:41] <lovetox> i mean you have space for 3 messages on a smartphone ^^
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[17:17:07] <Ge0rG> I have enough space for five
[17:17:22] <lovetox> threads or not, you will not have a sense of overview in a muc on a smartphone
[17:17:28] <lovetox> especially not one where much goes on
[17:17:55] <jonasw> depends, if the threads are properly done and you view only those you are interested in…
[17:18:06] <jonasw> but I doubt that will work reliably, because users will accidentally post messages in the wrong thread
[17:18:16] <jonasw> interesting question: can LMC modify the <thread/>?
[17:18:16] <Ge0rG> yeah, collapsing / ignoring threads would be awesome on smartphones
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[17:19:27] <Ge0rG> "The Sender MUST NOT include a correction for a message with non-messaging payloads." - looks to me like it's not forbidden
[17:19:34] *Ge0rG &
[17:19:37] <jonasw> fg
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[17:24:23] <Ge0rG> What? Hey!
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[17:29:36] <lovetox> yeah pretty nice idea for threads
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[17:30:03] <lovetox> but i see this more as a feature for serious work groups etc
[17:30:08] <lovetox> not for your everyday muc
[17:30:17] <jonasw> lovetox, indeed
[17:34:26] <lovetox> on desktop you could capture all threads put them into a list
[17:34:31] <lovetox> let the user name them
[17:34:32] <Ge0rG> If done right, it could work for both
[17:34:43] <lovetox> on click open a tab that displays only msgs from that thread
[17:35:34] <lovetox> that way i also know to which thread a user wants to respond
[17:35:57] <Ge0rG> But then, there will be the one client that fails, the Outlook of XMPP, the Pidgin of Carbons, where it's just plain broken
[17:35:58] <lovetox> i just treat it like a new conversation
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[17:36:26] <lovetox> yeah Ge0rG thats why i said its probably only for serious groups
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[17:36:30] <lovetox> that know what they are doing
[17:37:02] <Ge0rG> lovetox: rule number 1 of interface design: users don't know what they are doing
[17:37:08] <jonasw> that
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[17:44:10] <lovetox> Ge0rG, on the topic of self messaging
[17:44:21] <lovetox> receipts have no use in my opinion
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[17:44:43] <lovetox> on sent message if you dont get a error stanza from the server, you can see it as delivered
[17:45:18] <lovetox> it doesnt matter if your other client is online and sends a received stanza..
[17:45:22] <jonasw> right, stream management tells you that it has been processed by the server
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[17:45:27] <lovetox> i dont know when i ever would need that info
[17:45:57] <lovetox> i mean if you client is not totally broken you will get that message via MAM or offline message or carbons or whatever
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[17:46:18] <jonasw> you’d want to be sure that you can find it in MAM later
[17:46:26] <jonasw> for this you need to make sure that the message actually makes it to the server
[17:46:32] <jonasw> -> SM
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[17:47:04] <Ge0rG> lovetox: see, some client developers can't even send a coherent message with a highlight, how are Normal Users supposed to manage threads? 😀
[17:47:07] <lovetox> so i think i will deactivate receipts for self messaging, its only noise
[17:47:36] <Ge0rG> lovetox: sounds good enough to me.
[17:48:32] <lovetox> chatstates dito
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[17:50:17] <Ge0rG> Yeah, ideally 0198 will manage the thing. However, I'd still like to show green checkmarks, just maybe with a different logic to create them.
[17:50:48] <jonasw> Ge0rG: SM should be a sufficient source for that, no?
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[17:52:26] <lovetox> yeah though, in most cases i dont have events for sm stanzas in my application, and its maybe not so easy to link them to messages, for example my first idea would also be just to use the "sent" carbon that i get as a receipt
[17:52:53] <lovetox> at least in gajim that would be way easier then to do this via sm stanzas
[17:54:18] <Ge0rG> lovetox: no 'sent' receipt on outgoing message
[17:54:25] <Tobias> fippo, regarding that video..."you want ford be able to call general motors, etc." that all sounds like a nice fit for a federated system, but then again it's google
[17:55:27] <lovetox> Ge0rG, then the received ?
[17:55:40] <lovetox> that we want to get rid off ^^
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[17:55:52] <Ge0rG> lovetox: Yeah, unless you're on mlink
[17:56:01] <fippo> tobias: well, meet. doesn't work in Firefox anymore than hangouts does...
[17:56:33] <lovetox> see now would be cool when we could join our own thread Ge0rG :D
[17:56:39] <Tobias> hangouts requires a plugin in FF anyway, not?
[17:57:01] <fippo> well, npapi died.
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[18:00:10] <Ge0rG> lovetox: Yeah. Good luck getting that UX sorted out and introduced into all Jabber.. No, XMPP clients.
[18:01:36] <lovetox> maybe i do it once just for fun, i think gajim has already everything set up for it, window manager, thread managing, it just needs to be connected and a little bit of UI :)
[18:01:57] <jonasw> i doubt that it is "a little bit of UI", but sure. make a nice demo, I’d be interested in how this can work nicely
[18:02:28] <lovetox> i described it above, i would gather the different threads and display them in a list
[18:02:43] <lovetox> when the user clicks that list, a window opens where the messages are filtered with the thread
[18:02:52] <Ge0rG> This might also not be the biggest problem that gajim has...
[18:02:53] <lovetox> if he writes into that window, message goes to the thread
[18:02:58] <lovetox> seems pretty easy
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[18:03:35] <lovetox> on desktop i dont have to put everything into one window :)
[18:03:42] <jonasw> yes you have.
[18:03:48] <jonasw> (but that is just my humble opinion ;-))
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[18:04:14] <lovetox> dont limit the desktop to a bigger smartphone :)
[18:04:31] <jonasw> don’t litter my desktop with windows
[18:04:51] <lovetox> i actually dont, i can also use tabs inside one window ^^
[18:04:56] <SamWhited> What happens if I'm in a client that doesn't support threading and I reply to the discussion, then other people reply to me? It probably doesn't show up in your tab, and then you only see half the discussion and the thread is broken.
[18:05:49] <lovetox> yeah SamWhited of course you can sabotage it .. but if only gajim clients talk with each other it would work good :)
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[18:05:53] <lovetox> and maybe others adopt it
[18:05:54] <lovetox> :)
[18:05:59] <jonasw> that’s not sabotaging, that’s simply interoperating
[18:06:03] <SamWhited> I read that as "so it will never work"
[18:06:11] <jonasw> or rather not interoperating
[18:06:29] <SamWhited> I'd love to see the UX issues around threading worked out; I've thought about this a lot and never been able to come up with a good way to do it that didn't just break constantly.
[18:06:48] <lovetox> but the breaking has nothing to do with your UX
[18:06:54] <lovetox> it has to do with other clients
[18:07:10] <Ge0rG> You just add a context menu "join with thread" that opens a sub menu with a list of all threads
[18:07:11] <jonasw> SamWhited: however, in lovetox’ defense: you will never be able to interoperate with clients which do not do threading properly. that’s simply how it is, it’s the same for email.
[18:07:19] <SamWhited> It doesn't matter; there will be other clients in the chat, and if they break the threading on my end and I'm a user all I know is "threading is broken, this is bad"
[18:07:29] <jonasw> indeed
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[18:07:59] <lovetox> somebody has to start
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[18:08:07] <jonasw> yes, it’s tricky
[18:08:22] <jonasw> it would be good if one could somehow sanely detect these clients and fall back to a sane non-threaded UI for those
[18:08:29] <jonasw> or rather if those clients participate
[18:08:45] <Ge0rG> Or you'll end up with implausible requirements similar to OMEMO/MUC. All of the participants need to implement "Easy XMPP" and you need to have them in your roster for threading to work.
[18:08:58] <SamWhited> Now you have a UI inconsistency between rooms that have some other client joined, and rooms that don't, which also feels poor (maybe better, maybe worse? I'm not sure)
[18:09:04] <lovetox> as i said i would just show a list with all threads, you dont have to click them and join, you can just watch the muc like now ..
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[18:09:15] <lovetox> its just a addtional tab when you want to use it and it works
[18:09:15] <jonasw> SamWhited: I think it’s better, because it is a more or less sane upgrade path to a world where all clients can do that
[18:09:21] <SamWhited> Also between the same room on one day and the same room 10 minutes later
[18:09:33] <jonasw> ugh
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[18:09:35] <jonasw> it’s all a mess.
[18:09:36] <SamWhited> When I'm in a room, and a client that doesn't support threading joins, do all my threads just close? That will feel poor
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[18:09:47] <jonasw> on a related matter: a XEP which allows me to post a simple reaction to a post would be great
[18:09:55] <jonasw> I’ve seen that with slack I think. or like you can on github issues
[18:10:11] <jonasw> those wouldn’t trigger any UI notifications, and it saves vertical space
[18:10:16] <Lance> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0367.html ?
[18:10:37] <lovetox> SamWhited, why would a thread close? the messages have that thread on them and i can filter the window for it, it doesnt matter what another client does, except spamming my thread maybe
[18:10:40] <SamWhited> Yah, that's one of the things we were going to use 0367 for, although it's not called out explicitly and I don't think it's happening now
[18:10:42] <jonasw> SamWhited: do it like youtube "User XY does not have threading, thus we have to fold it all. We are sorry. (Blame them and hunt them with pitchforks & torches)"
[18:10:48] <jonasw> ah cool, SamWhited
[18:11:03] <jonasw> I was already thinking about 367, but it seemed to be too broad for that. if it is intended to serve that purpose, great!
[18:11:04] <SamWhited> lovetox: But now when that user replies, your threads break and we're back to the beginning
[18:11:04] <Ge0rG> Somehow, my smartphone miscompleted roster into rosette...
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[18:11:19] <lovetox> why would it break? what does breaking mean for you?
[18:11:30] <lovetox> adding a message that doesnt belong to the thread is breaking?
[18:11:32] <jonasw> lovetox: not correctly showing semantically related messages all the time
[18:11:34] <jonasw> yes.
[18:11:36] <jonasw> that’s breaking.
[18:11:39] <SamWhited> Their messages don't show up in the thread, and people are replying to the conversation both in the threaded room and in the non-threaded room
[18:11:43] <Lance> SamWhited: it'd also need message retracted to do the full reaction UX, but yeah that's what I had plans for with 367 too
[18:11:47] <SamWhited> now the thread is split between two places
[18:11:50] <lovetox> so when i go to a message board and post in the wrong topic, i broke the topic?
[18:11:57] <SamWhited> Lance: ah yah, good point; we never actually got that far
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[18:12:42] <lovetox> yeah that people answer to it with the wrong thread on the message, ok
[18:12:48] <lovetox> that is a problem in the start
[18:12:52] <lovetox> that the filtering is not good
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[18:13:02] <lovetox> but it would get better and better as more clients adapt
[18:13:12] <lovetox> this does not even mean implementing the same thing
[18:13:18] <lovetox> just use some sane rules on threads
[18:13:30] <SamWhited> It's nto that people are posting to the wrong topic though; a message board will show everyone a consistent view of what the topics are. It's juts that users are posting the only way they can, and it's breaking the thread for some users but not others.
[18:13:44] <Ge0rG> lovetox: in 20 years, there will still be people on the xsf MIX using Pidgin.
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[18:14:43] <lovetox> i bet i get Ge0rG and inputmice, Link Mauve , mathieui and probably one or two other devs to not break my shiny new thread feature
[18:15:17] <lovetox> and we ban the rest from all mucs :D
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[18:15:33] <Ge0rG> lovetox: on mobile, people will just tap on the first instance of the person they want to complete.
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[18:16:24] <Ge0rG> And you really really really don't want to promote lightweight threads to windows
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[18:17:59] <SamWhited> I tried a web chat thing recently that did threads as windows; I thought it worked pretty well, the only problem was that it also kept the threads in the main chat view, which meant everyone just replied in the main chat view and the threads never got used
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[18:19:14] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: sounds like slack
[18:19:25] <lovetox> UI for naming the threads then use tab completion
[18:19:25] <SamWhited> I haven't actually tried Slack since they introduced threading
[18:19:42] <SamWhited> lovetox: It's still more work than just typing your message and hitting enter, which means most people will ignore it
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[18:20:00] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: I was the only one to try threading, so I consider it a UX failure
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[18:20:07] <lovetox> not everything has to be used by everyone
[18:20:19] <SamWhited> Ge0rG: Yah, that's how I was with this messenger (I forget what it's called) that our team was playing with
[18:20:42] <SamWhited> lovetox: it does in this case, otherwise the threading is always broken and worthless
[18:20:48] <SamWhited> everyone or at least most people
[18:20:52] <Ge0rG> lovetox: you would need to provide visual hints, like color codes for the U to work out
[18:21:06] <SamWhited> That's what this did, which was actually rather nice, let me ask what it was called…
[18:21:09] <lovetox> ok what about this
[18:21:24] <lovetox> a work feature: there is no main chat view
[18:21:28] <lovetox> only a add thread button
[18:21:33] <lovetox> every thread gets his own window
[18:21:44] <lovetox> you can only answer to threads
[18:22:00] <SamWhited> Isn't taht just making new mucs at that point? (also, that still requires every client to do it)
[18:22:02] <lovetox> when you join you load mam, and get automatically a list with all threads
[18:22:07] <Ge0rG> lovetox: Yeah, will be broken immediately by an incompatible client
[18:22:17] <lovetox> thats why i said its a work feature
[18:22:25] <lovetox> like a company if they all use the same client
[18:22:43] <Ge0rG> And then some client will use auto increment integers for threads ids
[18:22:45] <lovetox> making a new muc has considerable overhead
[18:22:46] <SamWhited> yah, fair enough, it can work in closed environments
[18:23:24] <lovetox> actually is that not exactly what we need for mailing list replacement ^^
[18:23:36] <lovetox> a search function added and its perfect
[18:23:47] <lovetox> and its all archived in one single muc :D
[18:24:09] <Ge0rG> "Sending of MUC messages without a thread ID is disallowed by group policy. Please contact your chat administrator."
[18:24:39] <Ge0rG> lovetox: and you only can get the last 50 messages.
[18:24:47] <SamWhited> CA Flowdock is the thing we were looking at that did threading, btw; might be worth experimenting with if you're trying to do this: https://www.flowdock.com/
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[18:25:04] <SamWhited> It was pretty nice looking, but when we tried it no one used threads, so I felt like it was a failure.
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[18:25:21] <SamWhited> Or rather, one person did, and everyone else replied in the normal chat and then they didn't see replies in the thread
[18:26:12] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: maybe they were using the xmpp transport? 😀
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[18:32:18] <lovetox> so lets recap this, instead of the participant list in the muc i show a thread list, the client has MAM so gets all backlog, the muc is moderated, only people with voice can post (members) and maybe a server addon kicks people that dont identify with the correct client
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[18:32:47] <lovetox> and you can only click on a thread and answer to a thread, never into the main muc
[18:33:12] <SamWhited> Does this mean there always ends up being an "offtopic" or "general" thread that's the new main muc?
[18:33:26] <SamWhited> (which is probably fine, just trying to nitpick things that feel odd)
[18:33:30] <lovetox> there is no main muc
[18:33:37] <lovetox> you have to add a thread to post
[18:33:41] <lovetox> like on the mailing list
[18:34:06] <lovetox> i mean you could create a general thread
[18:34:14] <lovetox> which is probably the same as posting to the main muc
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[18:37:17] <lovetox> could we not even write a application on the server that transforms the stanzas and groups them via threads, for a webview
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[18:39:02] <lovetox> wonder that nobody did something like that already
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[18:42:38] <Ge0rG> lovetox: sounds like a web forum to me
[18:42:59] <lovetox> yeah though via xmpp :D
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[18:44:34] <Ge0rG> Yeah, let's reinvent a bad clone of NNTP over XML
[18:45:08] *SamWhited wishes he could just have his usenet back and be done with it.
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[18:45:30] <SouL> Forum + xmpp, would be really cool
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[18:47:08] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: Yeah! But it'll never come back.
[18:47:22] <Ge0rG> 😟
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[18:49:23] <SamWhited> Indeed; when I was in school we had free usenet on the campus network; it was great. All the clubs and frats and what not got issued a git.sga.yourclub or something (not that anyone ever used it; the theater did a bit for whatever reason though); but sometime during my junior year the guy who had built the system in the 90's came back to work at the school, was suprised to still find it running, and shut it down. It was very sad.
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[18:57:25] <Ge0rG> We had a sat feed during the second half of the 90ies, it was awesome. Then the feed provider went bankrupt
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[18:59:39] <SamWhited> The problem with usenet in a nutshell… everyone who tried to run the infrastructure decided to synchronize alt.binaries or whatever, and then went bankrupt :)
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[19:00:28] <jonasw> :D
[19:01:34] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: that's because every user wanted alt.binaries ...
[19:01:44] <Ge0rG> And nothing else
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[20:11:53] <Flow> jonasw: any particular reason the ecaps2 example uses BombusMod?
[20:11:55] <Flow> :)
[20:12:10] <jonasw> Flow: i think I even mention how I picked the examples
[20:12:21] <jonasw> ("first one in my capsdb which has this and that thing I want to show in that particular example")
[20:12:28] <Flow> jonasw: ok, I obviously didn't read that
[20:12:39] <jonasw> I knew people would wonder that :-)
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[20:12:54] <Flow> is BombosMod still acticely developed?
[20:12:58] <jonasw> I have no idea.
[20:13:17] <jonasw> I am open to choosing different examples if it matters.
[20:13:58] <Flow> no, was just wondering
[20:15:35] <Flow> I do like what I read in ecaps2 so far
[20:15:43] <jonasw> that’s nice to hear :)
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[20:16:02] <Flow> did you already get feedback from wasqas?
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[20:16:24] <jonasw> I don’t think so
[20:16:27] <jonasw> should probably ping him directly
[20:16:51] <Flow> why not, I don't think he would mind
[20:17:55] <Flow> jonasw: Once this is accepted, you should add references to the RFCs for UTF-8 and base64
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[20:20:45] <jonasw> right, I’ll add it to my notes
[20:20:52] <Flow> using hashes:hash is also uncommen, but likely not invalid XMPP, but I wonder how many XMPP libs would break
[20:21:24] <jonasw> right, quite a few
[20:21:44] <jonasw> might adapt that example, even though it’s valid.
[20:21:56] <jonasw> makes it shorter to read though
[20:22:08] <jonasw> note also that in the wire format examples, I use xmlns="…" instead of prefixes
[20:25:40] <Flow> jonasw: also possible s/Append a "."./append a FULL STOP character (U+002E, ".")/, which would be how RFCs reference characters
[20:25:53] <jonasw> that sounds better
[20:26:06] <jonasw> noted
[20:26:57] <SamWhited> ooh, I didn't actually notice that. FWIW, I would have -1ed it if I did.
[20:27:09] <SamWhited> I obviously didn't read this carefully enough :)
[20:27:14] <jonasw> SamWhited: which exactly?
[20:27:24] <SamWhited> Use of namespace prefixes
[20:27:29] <jonasw> uh
[20:27:51] <Flow> what's wrong with namepsace prefixes?
[20:27:56] <jonasw> didn’t know that it was such a red flag. it’s not even in a wire format example though.
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[20:28:28] <SamWhited> Ah, yah, reading over this and it doesn't look like they're required, just part of the example so I don't care as much. But yah, I deeply hate them.
[20:28:53] <Flow> SamWhited: I don't think that you hate them is a valid reason to -1 a ProtoXEP
[20:28:55] <jonasw> I like them. of course I don’t require them, because at the layer we’re working at, there’s nothing we can do to require them, really :-)
[20:28:57] <SamWhited> Nothing handles namespaces properly, and I constantly have to fight with the fact that stream's use prefixes and if you don't do it stuff breaks even if your stuff is technically still valid
[20:29:11] <jonasw> s/Nothing/Nothing you use/
[20:29:18] <jonasw> libxml and expat handle them just fine
[20:29:26] <Flow> We had the discussion to introduce a generic 'by' attribute using a prefix which gets re-used by other XEPs
[20:29:27] <SamWhited> Yah, fair; nothing I use. But as far as I can tell libxml2 and expat are just about the only things that handle them fine
[20:29:46] <Flow> And I still like the idea
[20:30:23] <jonasw> frankly I don’t understand what’s so hard about handling XML namespaces in parsing or serialisation.
[20:31:06] <SamWhited> It's not "hard" there are just too many edge cases because there are so many ways to represent the same data
[20:31:11] <SamWhited> Which leads to bugs
[20:31:26] <SamWhited> At least, that was my take from briefly playing around with creating a namespace aware XML parser
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[20:32:00] <SamWhited> But personally I think we shouldn't encourage the use of namespace prefixes, it will just lead to interoperability issues. Just keep it simple.
[20:32:21] <jonasw> Personally I think we shouldn’t cater for broken XML implementations.
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[20:32:35] <SamWhited> I agree in principle, but not in practice.
[20:32:37] <jonasw> but I bow to reality
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[21:15:15] <lovetox> if i send a message out to my own bareJID, will i always get the message back at the sending resource? or could the server choose another resource?
[21:15:20] <lovetox> Ge0rG,
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[21:18:36] <dwd> lovetox, It's the same as any other message to your bare jid, and will be routed to one or more resources as per RFC 6121.
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[21:19:07] <Zash> What have you people been up to today?
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[21:22:27] <lovetox> that is a bit vague
[21:22:47] <lovetox> deliver the message to the "most available" resource or resources (according to the server's implementation-specific algorithm, e.g., treating the resource or resources with the highest presence priority as "most available")
[21:23:25] <lovetox> thats my question, is the resource that sends the message out also the "most available" in that moment
[21:23:40] <lovetox> so can i assume it will always get it back and not another resource
[21:24:00] <Zash> -xep best practices for resource locking
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[21:26:02] <dwd> lovetox, Implementation-defined.
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[22:14:07] <Kev> FWIW, we've had a long-standing stance to avoid namespaced attributes in the XMPP community.
[22:14:15] <Kev> On the basis that it's likely to break lots of things.
[22:14:29] <Kev> And that's about all I've got the energy to read up and notice.
[22:15:17] <dwd> Wait, namespaced *attributes*? I hadn't realised it was attributes. Nobody understands those (to a first approximation).
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[22:23:56] <Zash> What's attributes?
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[22:25:46] <dwd> Oh. It's not. It's just a prefixed element, albeit with the prefix defined in a containing element. That's fine, and I see nothign wrong in that.
[22:26:46] <Kev> It is? I thought someone said about namespaced attributes.
[22:26:51] <dwd> Assumign the "hashes:hash" comment is referring to the bit just above https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/ecaps2.html#usecases
[22:27:02] <dwd> I can't see anythign using namespaced attributes in there.
[22:27:10] <dwd> Also, I cannot type.
[22:27:20] <Kev> Ah, this is ecaps, not ISR?
[22:27:27] <Kev> I've just checked, they seem to be heavily used in ISR.
[22:27:30] <Kev> e.g.
<enabled
xmlns='urn:xmpp:sm:3'
xmlns:isr='urn:xmpp:isr:0'
isr:key='a0b9162d-0981-4c7d-9174-1f55aedd1f52'
isr:location='isr.example.org:5222'/>
[22:27:42] <Ge0rG> lovetox:
[22:27:48] <Kev> Which is what I understand by the term 'namespaced attribute', at least.
[22:27:49] <Ge0rG> You are totally
[22:27:56] <dwd> Oh, I've been staring at that recently and didn't notice them.
[22:28:02] <Ge0rG> breaking my highlights.
[22:28:35] <dwd> Ge0rG, You should have them done at my place, that Julian he does my hair lovely.
[22:30:00] <Ge0rG> lovetox: there is no guarantee that you will receive the Self-JID message, unless you send it to your own full JID. But you will probably receive the carbon, unless you are on m-link,which is now breaking expectations by doing the right thing
[22:30:20] <Ge0rG> And this is why everything in XMPP is complicated.
[22:30:28] <lovetox> thats the problem i found out just now
[22:30:38] <lovetox> if the server doesnt sent it back to the sending resource
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[22:30:52] <lovetox> the resource that gets the message, gets also a "sent" carbon
[22:30:57] <lovetox> so double message again
[22:31:23] <lovetox> and this time i can only deduplicate if i go to the db and see if the stanza id is already there
[22:31:29] <Ge0rG> lovetox: the best thing to do is to rely on 0198 acks and filter out the duplicate
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[22:31:56] <Ge0rG> lovetox: yes, unless you already got the same stanza id some time in the past
[22:32:15] <lovetox> gajim uses uuid
[22:32:24] <Ge0rG> My MUC code used to rely on unique stanza ids, it was a bad idea
[22:33:12] <Ge0rG> lovetox: okay, if you only ever t check an ID generated by gajim, you'll be fine
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[22:33:51] <lovetox> but thats a lot of work to get self messaging to what i want it to be :/
[22:34:59] <Ge0rG> lovetox: the good thing is that you are probably guaranteed to receive the message and the carbon right after each other.
[22:37:00] <lovetox> yeah its actually not a problem right now, because gajim has a mechansim in which it caches a hash of various message attributes, and drops messages with the same hash
[22:38:18] <Ge0rG> That sounds like somebody could exploit it
[22:39:04] <lovetox> to what end?
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[22:47:29] <Ge0rG> lovetox: to prevent you from seeing messages?
[22:48:19] <lovetox> you can only achieve the same hash when you write the same message
[22:48:24] <lovetox> so i dont want to see that
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[22:50:53] <Ge0rG> lovetox: is it a cryptographic hash?
[22:51:09] <lovetox> sha256
[22:51:37] <lovetox> you would have to put in real effort to not let me see that message
[22:51:43] <lovetox> you could also just not write it :D
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[22:54:06] <lovetox> ok have to go, good night :)
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