Tuesday, March 21, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:01:06] <jonasw> Kev, dwd, FWIW, I think the use of namespaced attributes there is very elegant and in the spirit of XML.
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[07:05:49] <jonasw> dwd: re 'It's useful to have a device-specific token which can then be managed and/or revoked, independent of ISR':
that kind of thing exists, it’s used with SASL EXTERNAL and called a Client Certificate ;-)
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[07:36:04] <Kev> It might be in the spirit of XML, but it's not in the spirit of XMPP, and I'd say that's more important in this case.
[07:37:39] <jonasw> what’s the spirit of XMPP in that regard?
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[07:44:05] <Kev> Not to use namespaced attributes.
[07:44:15] <Kev> And to use namespaced child elements instead.
[07:44:33] <jonasw> would probably work equally well
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[07:47:30] <Guus> I don't think that I've ever seen a namespaced attribute being used in the wild. xml:ns, if that counts, perhaps.
[07:47:51] <jonasw> Guus: there are XML-based templating which use namespaced attributes to do magic
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[07:48:43] <jonasw> think <ul><li engine:loop-over="some expression" engine:loop-var="x"><engine:insert expr="x" /></li></ul>
[07:48:52] <Guus> oh, I'm not arguing that you _can_ use them. i'm just observing that I don't recall ever working with them.
[07:49:12] <Guus> ah, yeah, good old JSTL does use some.
[07:50:49] <Guus> (actually, no, it doesn't I think - what I was thinking of are all namespaced elements)
[07:51:20] <Guus> point being: we can use them, but if there's no urgent need, why break a familiar pattern of not having them?
[07:53:44] <jonasw> I also still wonder which XML implementations there are out there which do not support XML Namespaces and which are actually used for XMPP.
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[07:53:58] <jonasw> the ejabberd implementation was one of them (at least three years ago)
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[07:54:53] <Zash> All the regex ones you don't wanna know about.
[07:55:14] <jonasw> right, nginx is probably one
[07:55:44] <Zash> That's not even regex
[07:55:49] <jonasw> it’s a finite state machine IIRC
[07:55:52] <jonasw> pretty much regex
[07:56:44] <Zash> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3907
[07:57:44] <jonasw> ;P
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[09:32:56] <dwd> Our security guy is telling me there's a vulnerability in libpurple, for any folks using Adium or Pidgin.
[09:33:13] <jonasw> jus tone?
[09:33:15] <jonasw> *just one?
[09:33:18] <Zash> What else is new?
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[09:33:34] <dwd> Well, this one has been fixed.
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[09:33:45] <Zash> CVE?
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[09:33:56] <intosi> I'm sure a new release of Adium will happen in about a year.
[09:34:04] <Zash> Is it CVE-2017-2640? Or something newer?
[09:34:17] <dwd> intosi, Aparently there is an update already.
[09:34:21] <Ge0rG> https://twitter.com/bbhorne/status/681832517096370176 "Libpurple is basically a flock a zero days flying in formation." - @ioerror #32c3
[09:34:22] <Bunneh> Ge0rG: Minor clarifications to XEP-0198 #32
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/32
[09:34:30] <Ge0rG> Bunneh: no!
[09:34:32] <Zash> lol Bunneh
[09:34:42] <Guus> harharhar
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[09:35:01] <intosi> Bad Bunneh!
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[09:36:12] <jonasw> hrhr
[09:36:18] <jonasw> seriously though, CVE?
[09:36:30] <dwd> It wasn't on our internal thing. I've asked.
[09:36:39] <intosi> dwd: don't seen anything newer than 1.5.10.2 (03/09/2016 [sic])
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[09:37:13] <jonasw> can’t find anything on oss-security :/
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[09:37:37] <dwd> (Internal thing: custom UI on top of Buddycloud which acts as our internal social network. Given we're ditching it at some point, I should suggest this gets put out as Open Source as thrown-over-the-wall).
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[09:39:18] <dwd> It is indeed CVE-2017-2640
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[09:40:33] <jonasw> why the heck do they decode entities at all?!
[09:40:35] <mimi89999> What apps are vulnerable? Only Pidgin and Adium?
[09:40:43] <jonasw> mimi89999: anything using libpurple probably.
[09:40:49] <jonasw> this notably includes spectrum
[09:41:13] <dwd> jonasw, Most XML libraries decode entities as a matter of course.
[09:41:40] <jonasw> yes but why do they have their own entity decoding code then?
[09:41:59] <jonasw> (also, not if you’re using SAX, which makes sense for XMPP anyways)
[09:42:00] <dwd> jonasw, Oh, I've not read the CVE. It's obviously more stupid than I thought.
[09:42:09] <jonasw> that’s the fix: https://bitbucket.org/pidgin/main/commits/b2fc9e774cb9
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[09:42:17] <jonasw> I haven’t looked deeply into it, but it contains entity processing.
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[09:44:52] <dwd> That's weird.
[09:45:48] <jonasw> erm
[09:45:50] <jonasw> another question
[09:46:23] <jonasw> nevermind
[09:49:43] <MattJ> jonasw, we use expat (SAX) and it decodes entities for us
[09:50:03] <jonasw> MattJ: with expat + sax I get a callback on entities which I use to raise an exception to kill the stream.
[09:50:09] <jonasw> maybe that’s optional
[09:50:39] <dwd> jonasw, Even ꯍ stuff?
[09:50:48] <dwd> jonasw, Or '
[09:51:08] <Zash> <stream:error><not-well-formed xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-streams'/></stream:error>
[09:51:10] <jonasw> ah, not those
[09:51:51] <jonasw> no, yes, it calls startEntity for those; I explicitly white-listed those
[09:51:58] <Zash> Wha
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[09:55:36] <Kev> Even in attributes?
[09:56:26] <jonasw> let me write at test for that!
[09:58:10] <Kev> I'm surprised that e.g. & in an attribute would generate a callback, but it's not impossible.
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[10:02:20] <jonasw> expat actually does that
[10:02:31] <jonasw> but the callback only fires when the entity is known to expat
[10:02:41] <jonasw> so if you try to use ü, it will reject that before startEntity is called
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[10:18:34] <dwd> More importantly than all of this, my children have informed me that "Woof" in Welsh is "Wŵff", which fills me with unaccountable glee.
[10:20:10] <jonasw> I haven’t even the slightest idea how to pronounce that.
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[10:20:18] <Kev> jonasw: "woof". Basically.
[10:20:27] <Ge0rG> dwd: because it allows one to use Combining Diacritical Marks?
[10:21:37] <Guus> vowels are overrated.
[10:22:22] <Kev> Guus: Welsh loves vowels. It loves them so much it invented more.
[10:22:48] <Guus> classic overcompensation.
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[13:43:46] <Guus> Alex: is there / can you create an ics that I can subscribe to, with relevant XSF events (membership meetings primarily, but perhaps board and council meetings too)? I'm always struggling to get the time zone correct in Google's Calendar
[13:44:32] <dwd> Guus, I think Tobias did something. It might even work again.
[13:44:50] <Guus> Tobias: is there / can you create an ics that I can subscribe to, with relevant XSF events (membership meetings primarily, but perhaps board and council meetings too)? I'm always struggling to get the time zone correct in Google's Calendar
[13:45:33] <Guus> (upcoming DST for Europe is going to be yet another source of pain...)
[13:45:38] <Tobias> i see if i can revive that
[13:46:43] <Guus> Thanks
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[13:49:57] <Alex> Guus: I have suggested something like Google CAL a while ago. I don't know who has access and manages the current calendars right now. I don't think I have write access to them right now.
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[13:50:39] <Guus> Alex: that'd also work for me. I was not aware that we have any calendars in the first place.
[13:50:41] <jonasw> speaking of which, when’s the next council meeting?
[13:51:17] <Ge0rG> tomorrow afternoon?
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[13:51:34] <Alex> there are ICS cals, not sure where the URIs for them are listed
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[13:51:38] <jonasw> isn’t that when board meeting takes place, Ge0rG?
[13:51:42] <Ge0rG> jonasw: could update-entry.py provide a diff view instead of a 2x raw view?
[13:51:54] <jonasw> Ge0rG: can do
[13:51:58] <Ge0rG> jonasw: no, those are on Wed evenings
[13:52:06] <jonasw> isn’t today tuesday?
[13:52:33] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yes?
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[13:52:45] <jonasw> so council and board meetings are on the same day-of-week?
[13:52:54] <Ge0rG> jonasw: as far as I understood, yes.
[13:53:02] <Ge0rG> the council meeting is before the board meeting
[13:53:07] <jonasw> fascinating
[13:53:33] <Guus> There are some ICS files under http://xmpp.org/calendar/
[13:53:35] <Ge0rG> 2017-03-08, 2017-03-15, I think there's a pattern
[13:53:43] <Guus> but those appear outdated
[13:54:08] <Alex> Guus: gives me a 404
[13:54:15] <Guus> http://xmpp.org/calendar/xsf-council.ics
[13:54:20] <Guus> (there's no listing)
[13:54:39] <Alex> yes, on the old website they were lined from a page
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[13:55:19] <Guus> Tobias: where these the ones that you referred to?
[13:55:55] <Tobias> yes
[13:56:09] <Tobias> they used to be generated from XML. probably not the most user friendly
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[13:56:52] <Guus> given that they appear to stop working in 2014 ... perhaps explicitly delete them, and replace them by something else?
[13:57:09] <Guus> a Google Cal, as suggested by Alex, would do just fine for me
[13:58:06] <Ge0rG> dwd: it'd be nice if you could set your mark on https://trello.com/c/wF37u9DJ/169-vote-on-approve-xep-0045-changes-proposed-by-georg
[13:58:22] <Tobias> google calendar wfm
[13:59:50] <Guus> want me to create one?
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[14:00:10] <Alex> +1
[14:00:45] <Guus> is there a XSF google account?
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[14:01:42] <Tobias> Guus, good..question...i don't know
[14:02:40] <dwd> There was. I think we dropped it, but we used to have th XSF calendar on a Google account.
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[14:03:22] <dwd> Ge0rG, I did.
[14:04:26] <Zash> Pretend that you see the obligatory anti-google rant here.
[14:05:02] <Ge0rG> dwd: oh, sorry. You did it on the ML, it just wasn't updated in trello.
[14:05:50] <dwd> Ge0rG, Yes. FWIW, I'd love it if we formally voted on a webapp for the purpose, I don't think it's fair on the Editors to expect them to track the mailing list in this way.
[14:06:37] <Ge0rG> dwd: I'm not sure what is lacking to achieve that. Write access to trello?
[14:06:57] <dwd> Ge0rG, I'd prefer more than that, something like the IETF's datatracker.
[14:06:58] <Zash> What's the source of truth here?
[14:07:15] <dwd> Zash, The mailing list and/or council chatroom. Depending.
[14:07:44] <Ge0rG> Zash: there is no need in an authoritative source of truth if we assume that council members are well-behaving
[14:08:16] <Ge0rG> dwd: it should be XMPP based!
[14:08:22] <Ge0rG> SCNR
[14:08:56] <jonasw> Ge0rG: will do when my update-manual feature branch is merged
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[14:09:05] <Guus> I created a public calendar here: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=64v3vs15qlalgqv0j7r99ikm1c%40group.calendar.google.com
[14:09:34] <Guus> ical: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/ical/64v3vs15qlalgqv0j7r99ikm1c%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics
[14:09:53] <Guus> could someone verify that it's behaving correctly please? This is the first time that I create a public calendar
[14:10:10] <Ge0rG> BTW, where are the rules codified how (and if) other people can participate in board/council meetings?
[14:10:18] <Guus> there's one event on it, on May 2nd (the member appl. meeting)
[14:12:08] <dwd> Ge0rG, They're not codified, but we have held both meetings in public by default for years now, and - while ultimately up to the chair - comments from the floor are normally welcomed.
[14:13:09] <Ge0rG> dwd: I've ran into a situation where I had the feeling of misbehaving multiple times already, when I only wanted to contribute to a (board) meeting.
[14:13:11] <Guus> I might have already messed up the time of that first meet, btw.
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[14:23:52] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'd also suggest making the README a .md and not an .rst
[14:24:04] <jonasw> why, Ge0rG?
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[14:24:59] <Ge0rG> jonasw: my gut feeling is that markdown has become more common among developers
[14:25:20] <mathieui> it’s also the worst markup language
[14:25:22] <mathieui> worse*
[14:25:28] <Zash> "worse is better"
[14:25:34] <jonasw> Ge0rG: does it matter?
[14:25:47] <SamWhited> It's fine except for the two spaces at the end of a line being a line break… that drives me nuts.
[14:25:49] <jonasw> it is readable in plain text, it renders fine on github; for me, rst is easier to write because I do it every day.
[14:26:12] <Zash> SamWhited: Thou shallt not have line breaks
[14:26:29] <jonasw> and thou shalt not have trailing spaces
[14:26:34] <jonasw> :-)
[14:26:38] <SamWhited> I would not mind getting rid of both of those, yah.
[14:27:11] <Ge0rG> jonasw: in .md, you could get syntax highlighting of the json in the readme by using ```json quotes
[14:27:28] <SamWhited> That's only a GitHub thing, FWIW
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[14:27:50] <dwd> I may be the only person who doesn't care here. It's a wonderful feeling.
[14:27:56] <Ge0rG> jonasw: personally, I don't care much, just wondered about your choice being anti-popular
[14:28:03] *intosi grabs popcorn
[14:28:09] <mathieui> dwd, you’re not joining the holy war? heretic.
[14:28:22] <jonasw> Ge0rG: it’s because ~all docs for python are written in reStructuredText – and that’s what I do for most of my time.
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[14:28:37] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I feel with you, a little bit.
[14:28:56] <jonasw> not sure what that’s supposed to mean :)
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[14:28:59] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: there are other markdown parsers that support syntax highlighting of quotes
[14:29:02] <Zash> SamWhited: No pandoc can do syntax highlighting too with that syntax.
[14:29:05] <Zash> Pandoc is the best
[14:29:11] <Ge0rG> Pandoc FTW!
[14:29:24] <Zash> SamWhited: A, comma also.
[14:29:25] <SamWhited> Pandoc is the best; it also supports several flavors of Markdown (yey no proper standard), including GitHub flavored MD, IIRC
[14:29:41] <dwd> SamWhited, "Flavoured".
[14:29:47] *dwd finds a Holy War to join.
[14:29:48] <Ge0rG> I'm actually writing my CVEs in Pandoc and converting them to .doc for our "corporate" "processing pipeline".
[14:29:57] <SamWhited> dwd: Why don't you go drink some tea or something?
[14:30:04] <Zash> Coffee!
[14:30:06] <dwd> SamWhited, Marvellous ida.
[14:30:10] <dwd> SamWhited, Marvellous idea.
[14:30:19] <SamWhited> (I saw even though I have a cup of tea in front of me at this very moment :) )
[14:30:23] <SamWhited> say, even.
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[14:30:47] <dwd> SamWhited, If only you had a biscuit, you could apply to UK citizenship right away.
[14:30:57] <Ge0rG> Zash: we can't win the coffee-vs-tea war, it seems
[14:31:01] <intosi> nroff ftw
[14:31:30] <jonasw> dwd: if you want to fight *that* (gb vs. us) holy war, fix xep 143 (<https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html#nt-idp1712848>) ;P
[14:31:32] <Ge0rG> dwd: what about the "flavor" thing above? re SamWhited's citizenship
[14:31:48] <Zash> pandoc can output troff, pandoc win again
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[14:33:15] <dwd> jonasw, The irony of that example is: http://grammarist.com/spelling/authorise-authorize/
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[14:33:58] <Zash> Whatever that page says is wrong.
[14:34:10] <jonasw> dwd: I fail to see the irony
[14:34:34] <dwd> jonasw, The Oxford English Dictionary, which usually favors British spellings, still lists authorize as the primary spelling
[14:35:07] <jonasw> ah, haven’t read that far :)
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[14:38:57] <Guus> board, council, could you volunteer at least one from yourself to have access to the shared calendar (and add your meetings there?)
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[14:39:46] <Guus> Tobias: might be good to explicitly delete the old ICS files.
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[14:39:58] <Tobias> it might, yes
[14:40:10] <Tobias> will do that in a moment
[14:40:11] <Guus> Tobias: please delete the old ICS files? :)
[14:40:13] <Kev> Guus: And I'd like admin on anything XSFish, please.
[14:40:13] <Guus> ok :)
[14:40:26] <Guus> Kev: gladly
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[14:40:37] <Guus> I only need a google account for you, I think
[14:41:08] <Kev> Assuming PMs are enabled in here (I forget), I think I just sent you one :)
[14:41:19] <Guus> you did
[14:41:24] <Kev> \o/
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[15:01:20] <ralphm> Guus, the great thing about the old ICS files was that we had separate ones. I.e. one for board meetings, one for council, etc.
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[15:02:50] <Kev> Yes, but they're not updated now, so I'm fine with Guus trying to start something simpler that works instead of the previous better system that isn't used :)
[15:03:02] <Kev> (I prefer the old system in principle, too)
[15:03:10] <Guus> ralphm: if that's of value, we can split them up - I have no issue with that. But so far, we had many, many, unused calendars. :)
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[15:04:06] <ralphm> Oh, fully agree, Kev. The terrible thing about the ICS files was that they were not being updated.
[15:04:34] <Tobias> and it's not comfortable to make a commit every week to update a simple date
[15:04:42] <Guus> Google should give you an easier interface for that
[15:05:03] <Tobias> maybe we can tag them in google and have a script that creates filtered ICS based on the one google outputs
[15:05:18] <Guus> I've just added a recurring weekly Council meeting (16:00 - 16:30 Reykjavik time, right?)
[15:05:39] <Tobias> it's 17:00 Berlin time
[15:05:40] <Guus> when is the board meeting?
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[15:06:01] <Guus> Iceland does not do DST and is therefor UTC. :)
[15:06:20] <intosi> Guus: board meetings follow European UTC usually.
[15:06:26] <intosi> * DST
[15:06:31] <Tobias> Guus, ahh
[15:06:47] <SamWhited> Guus: That's too good; are you sure Iceland is a real place?
[15:07:03] <ralphm> Is that why Iceland is not joining the EU?
[15:07:04] <intosi> Iceland is a chain of stores.
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[15:07:56] <Guus> SamWhited: I think I recall a story from Arc in which he was locked up in its airport? :)
[15:08:12] <Zash> It's a trap?
[15:08:51] <Guus> Intosi: I'm happy to add the board and council meetings, but board and council should administer these meets themselves, ideally - if only to apply changes.
[15:09:05] <ralphm> Guus: what intosi said: peg the meetings to WE(S)T or CE(S)T
[15:09:17] <jonasw> "script" and "ics" doesn’t sound like a good combination
[15:09:44] <Kev> ralphm: Or London time, which is what they were traditionally pinned to :)
[15:09:53] <ralphm> WE(S)T is London time
[15:10:05] <Guus> guys, please give me a Google account so that you can do that yourselves :)
[15:10:12] <ralphm> ralphm.net
[15:10:33] <moparisthebest> What about a caldav server like nextcloud?
[15:10:35] <Kev> ralphm: I stand educated. Marginally :)
[15:10:38] <SamWhited> Guus: Can you add me so I can add editor meetings (not that those actually happen with any regularity)?
[15:10:46] <SamWhited> Google Account is the same as my JID
[15:11:05] <ralphm> Kev: that's rare. I'm savouring the moment.
[15:11:44] <jonasw> moparisthebest: nextcloud is *slightly* more than a caldav server.
[15:11:47] <ralphm> moparisthebest: seriously, caldav or any hope of functional interop between clients and servers is a lost cause at this point.
[15:12:05] <Kev> ralphm: I know. Im unteachable :)
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[15:12:15] <ralphm> also, if this works, I don't see any reason to do yet another thing. Thanks Guus
[15:12:32] <Guus> Sam: you should have access now.
[15:12:44] <ralphm> Guus: ralphm.net@gmail.com
[15:13:17] <Kev> Indeed, thanks to Guus.
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[15:14:01] <Guus> ralphm: you should have access now
[15:14:21] <moparisthebest> jonasw: doesn't have to be pretty sure it's all plugins now
[15:14:39] <moparisthebest> I just don't like relying on Google meh
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[15:14:49] <Guus> happy to help
[15:14:58] <jonasw> moparisthebest: If I had to run the server, I wouldn’t like to rely on the bunch of PHP nextcloud is :-)
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[15:15:22] <Zash> CalDAV is non-trivial to do.
[15:15:32] <SamWhited> If I had to have an account on the server and give it a password or any details at all, I wouldn't like to rely on the bunch of PHP nextcloud is…
[15:15:41] <Guus> all of you (+Alex) also have administrative powers - use them as you see fit.
[15:15:49] <moparisthebest> jonasw: there is a python one
[15:15:50] *SamWhited cancels all the meetings!
[15:16:06] *Guus takes screenshot for eternal blaming purposes.
[15:16:10] <Zash> Especially compared to hosting static .ics files
[15:17:43] <jonasw> Zash: writing static ICS files per hand or even with software is a non-trivial thing to do too though
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[15:18:12] <ralphm> moparisthebest: seriously, you have no idea how terrible this stuff is in practice. You are free to create your own calendar, though.
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[15:18:33] <Tobias> jonasw, that's why we used a python script to do that
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[15:22:53] <ralphm> Kev: FWIW, it has only been since 2002 synchronized DST switchover dates with the EU.
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[15:29:29] <SamWhited> Wait, so does the council meeting move with DST? I didn't actually realize that
[15:29:57] <moparisthebest> ralphm, I mean I use caldav all the time with my stuff, it seems to work pretty well, I can't say ics is better
[15:30:01] <Guus> Sam: I don't know, I changed that by popular demand here (and to avoid a scheduling conflict next week)
[15:30:22] <moparisthebest> I actually don't care caldav vs ics, I'd just prefer not to rely on google
[15:30:48] <jonasw> isn’t caldav just ics over http?
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[15:30:56] <jonasw> + a few extra methods for querying
[15:30:59] <ralphm> SamWhited: it does, so does Board
[15:31:02] <Zash> jonasw: Not even close
[15:31:16] <SamWhited> That's confusing
[15:31:42] <moparisthebest> no jonasw , totally different
[15:31:50] <Zash> It's WebDAV with support for advanced queries into the calendar data.
[15:31:54] <jonasw> I don’t know. It just works™ for me
[15:32:00] <ralphm> SamWhited: start a support group with Arc
[15:32:28] *SamWhited is going to just make the editors meeting fixed UTC, then I only have to figure out if I'm in DST and not if others are in DST to figure out the difference
[15:32:59] <arc> +1
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[15:33:08] <Guus> dst is evil.
[15:35:07] <moparisthebest> right jonasw works great! :) what server do you use for it?
[15:35:32] <jonasw> radicale.
[15:38:13] <moparisthebest> nextcloud works good enough for me for now, I need contacts and calendar
[15:38:23] <moparisthebest> I don't love the php, but meh
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[16:17:56] <Flow> > ‎SamWhited‎: That's only a GitHub thing, FWIW
Certainly not: http://spec.commonmark.org/0.26/#example-110
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[16:18:37] <SamWhited> Huh, didn't realize commonmark was based on GitHub flavored markdown.
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[16:41:27] <Flow> github and stackexchange together with some other companies formed CCommonMark: see "Who are you?" at http://commonmark.org/
[16:41:32] <Flow> SamWhited: ^
[16:42:53] <moparisthebest> the funnier part was it originally had a different name and the markdown creator guy chewed them a new one, so they changed it :)
[16:43:10] <Flow> moparisthebest: yeah, that was one nice popcorn show
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[16:43:58] <SamWhited> I guess it's good that they develop it to a spec, but creating something called commonmark just makes me think of that standards XKCD that people post into this room every few days
[16:44:10] <Flow> I'd also like to point out that John MacFarlane is behind CommonMark *and* pandoc
[16:44:30] <Ge0rG> The apocalypse call-out has started: https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/717076/4c3593aa4cad8e66/ (Y2K38)
[16:44:35] <moparisthebest> iirc they explicitly mentioned that xkcd comic when they released it, so I'm fine with it :)
[16:45:08] <Zash> So it begins
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[16:48:42] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, so all us programmers are totally screwed but also have job security, a bit of a double edged sword :P
[16:49:30] *Zash carefully makes sure to leave Y10k bugs everywhere
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[16:50:09] <Ge0rG> Zash: that won't make for a good retirement plan, unless you intend to live forever.
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[17:08:08] <Zash> Retirement, like that's going to be a thing in the future.
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[18:06:10] <bear> hmm, is this old news or something we should talk about as XSF http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2017/Mar/57
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[18:11:06] <Guus> bear, I think that was discussed earlier today
[18:11:10] <Guus> or perhaps your yesterday
[18:11:20] <bear> ah - thanks Guus
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[18:11:43] <Guus> but, you likely are not the only one that has not been part of that discussion :)
[18:11:46] <Guus> so fire away :)
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[18:12:31] <Guus> http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2017-03-21/#09:32:56
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[19:03:06] <lovetox> should the new mam id inject on messages give the actual message a different mamid then the carbon copy of it? https://paste.gajim.org/view/157752b2
[19:04:12] <lovetox> or im missing something here, is this actually archived two times?
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[19:04:25] <lovetox> is this again some self messaging corner case
[19:06:08] <lovetox> Holger
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[19:08:40] <lovetox> or is this not even the new inject, was the archiv id always added to self messages
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[19:43:21] <Flow> lovetox: it should be <origin-id/> for the outgoing stanzas
[19:43:43] <Flow> see xep359 § 2.2
[19:44:30] <Flow> ahh I'm confused
[19:44:44] <Flow> lovetox: why do you get a carbon *and* the stanza to the same resource?
[19:44:47] <lovetox> the question is why has the same message two different mam ids
[19:45:15] <lovetox> this happens when you adress a message to your own bare jid
[19:45:37] <lovetox> but this is viewed from the other side
[19:45:46] <lovetox> we get the actual message
[19:45:53] <Flow> ahh ok, I think you may want to add a <origin-id/>
[19:45:57] <lovetox> but then a sent carbon because we are not the sending resource
[19:46:34] <Flow> or dedup by the message-stanza-id
[19:47:10] <lovetox> i do this already, but the question is not why i get the messages i get, this was discussed at length and its ok for me
[19:47:22] <Flow> I think nothing in the MAM/stanza-id XEP prevents the involved parties from assigning multiple IDs to the same stanza
[19:47:24] <lovetox> the question is why does the server attribute two differen mam ids to the same message
[19:47:33] <Flow> (not saying that this is good)
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[19:48:39] <lovetox> i would understand if the message was received twice by the server
[19:48:46] <lovetox> but it wasnt, we sent out one message
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